Goyf is also an amazing attacker AND defender. This Coat-tail creature sucks if you are on the defensive. Slapping down a Goyf changes the game state in a big way. This guy? Not so much.
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Goyf is also an amazing attacker AND defender. This Coat-tail creature sucks if you are on the defensive. Slapping down a Goyf changes the game state in a big way. This guy? Not so much.
This guy is nuts, and i don't buy the "he is only a 2/2 right off the bat" that only applies if it is turn 3 and you don't have a top in play (or 2). Any time after turn 3 he has the potential to be much larger right off the bat, even if you are bluffing. The fact that this guy powers up redundant tops is also very relevant, that card is really strong already and it just got better.
Like English.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Rotten
You Americans and your "we don't need unnecessary U's in our version of words" also your re and er switching.
Quote:
Originally Posted by C.P.
These are both true statements. Nonetheless there are going to be times, and decks, when Lorescale Serpent is a better draw than Tarmogoyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Rotten
Turn 1 - Sensei's Divining Top
Turn 2 - Sylvan Library
Turn 3 - Lorescale Coatl
Turn 4- Attack for 6.
Turn 5 - Attack for 10.
As an example. That's a blue aggro-control scenario that is just as strong as anything Threshold can put out now. Note that on turn 6 you are laughing at Dreadstill's lack of removal as your 14/14 Coatl goes in for the kill.
Not to mention any instant speed card drawing spell/ability is now a combat trick. I don't see any (legacy viable) way to suddenly give goyf +3/+3 in the middle of battle, but with this guy in play, brainstorm is now a blue giant growth that cantrips.
I actually over-reached a bit on the scenario above. That is a great opening but it's more suited to an aggro deck than an aggro-control one. Aggro-control tends to cantrip on turn 1 to find the land to keep going, or alternately holds mana open for Stifle or something similar.
Here's the scenario as I think it would actually play out in most cases:
Turn 1 - Ponder
Turn 2 - Sylvan Library
Turn 3 - Lorescale Coatl
Turn 4 - Attack for 5
Turn 5 - Attack for 8
Your Brainstorm scenario works well in there on turn 4 and 5 with no other mana commitments required during those turns.
The thing about Coatl is that he does work so well with Sensei's Divining Top, which does work so well with Counterbalance, and he does work so well with Ponder and Brainstorm, which also work so well in bue aggro-control, and he does work just so wonderfully with Sylvan Library, which now has a reason to be in blue aggro-control where it will be a beast of a card because it lets you dig for no mana after your initial investment and it lets you pay life to get that one card buried 3 deep on turn 3 that you would not survive without.
Coatl is just too synergistic with the CounterTop meta at this point not to be a major player. Whether or not Tarmogoyf eventually gets downgraded is not clear, because he too is a beast - just a more limited one in the end.
This seems weak. You didn't attack until turn 4! This scenario assumes too much. To be clearer, what was your opponent doing during that time? Did he cast a Dreadnaught? Did he attempt to StP or otherwise kill the Coat-tail? Were you able to protect? Did he chump your attack and then swing in with an early Tombstalker? Did he combo out? Did you pay life for Library? Did Library get Dazed (Coat-tail seems pretty crappy now)? Did he get Sowered on Turn 4?Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Granted, he seems decent in this goldfish scenario - but ONLY decent. But if we're going to spend a bunch of resources to make a card good, why not play Stiffle-Not?
I guess why I see this card as rather lackluster is that you MUST spend resources for it to be a good creature. Now, of course, in Thresh, these are resources you'll be using anyway (specifically BStorm, Top, and Ponder), but really where am I going to fit him in the deck?
My bet: Players will be disappointed with this card. Hell, it might even be hanging out in your binder with Hoofprints of the Stag.
With all that being said, he is a perfect fit for my Slippery Boggle deck.
Here's an issue with Coatl - you have to justify running cards like Trygon Predator, Vendilion Clique, Mystic Enforcer, Jenara, Fledgling Dragon, Sea Drake, Tombstalker, Werebear, and even Nimble Mongoose (granted, many of these are older examples of course) over him in a format where people just aren't going to let you get to threshold all that often and many of the rest of them require three or more mana too.
The truth is that he's a better raw, non-evasive clock in a Threshold mirror than any of those other cards. He swings through Goyf and he can block Goyf - isn't that good enough?
Also the new set is in the Gatherer database.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...verseid=179633
The picture is nothing special, just a snake on a branch, meh.
Odd they did not give this creature a job, it's creature type is just plain old snake.
He CAN swing through Goyf - if you have a Brainstorm after you have played him or have 4 turns to sit around. In a Thresh mirror, I think that I'd rather play Goose since the usual Thresh deck runs StP as removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRock
Coat-tail + Brainstorm = pretty good even though it won't happen until turn 4.
Coat-tail + Ponder = meh.
Coat-tail + Top = meh.
Coat-tail + 2 Tops = ok IF you have extra mana.
Coat-tail + draw step = totally meh.
IMO, he gets big too late and for too much.
This makes no sense to me from a flavor standpoint. How does a plain old snake benefit from you remembering spells? Mystic Snake is also just a snake, but atleast in the picture it justifies its abilites (it scares you spell-less!)Quote:
Originally Posted by quicksilver
However, it's worth noting that every Swords they use on your Coatls is a Swords they don't use on your Goyfs.
It's it's scales, they remember the "lore" of the spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath_Of_Houlding
"The enlightenment I never found in etherium I have found traced in the coatl's scales."
I'm taking P_R's side on this one (as if my opinion carries any weight). I think this won't be an auto-include in Thresh/NLU for the same reasons I said about Jenara: Trygon, Confidant, and Sower all outclass it because overpowered utility > X/X beater, and you already have Goyf to do your beating/blocking when necessary. Maybe this will end up being better than those cards, but I think at best it serves as Goyf 5-6.
However, when you're piloting Thresh and you're digging for a Goyf and wishing you had extra copies, it's usually because you're losing (more often than not to an opposing Goyf) and you need a wall. In this scenario, when having Goyf 5-6 is most useful, Coatl comes up short. Coatl is best in the early game, and personally I would rather be playing Dark Confidant turn 2 and winning the game with it than playing this thing and going aggro. I'm not saying the card sucks, and I'm not saying that it won't make the cut, I'm just not sold on it from a purely hypothetical standpoint.
Ditto. And let's keep in mind that his good "early game" doesn't start until turn 4!Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
Hell, let's start running this guy. He gets HUGE-AH for simply casting spells and Thresh runs a BUNCH of free spells. Also, he gets counters when your OPPONENT casts spells! Plus, you get to move those counters to your good creatures (aka Goyf).
Unfortunately, he doesn't pitch to FoW.
Coatl can also be pretty good in the late game if you have two tops. A nantuko shade that doesn't shirink back down end of turn.
I have to ask here: how often does goyf do enough damage before turn 4 to make a huge difference in the overall damage the two will do? My experience is that he lands as a 2-3 on turn 2 (sometimes, although often on turn 3 as a 3-4 or 4-5 for other reasons) and doesn't usually attack on turn 3 for very much even assuming he landed on turn 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Rotten
My gut feeling is that the two will do equal damage though turn 5 or so and then Coatl will be better assuming no removal. Obviously goyf 2 is going to make up some of the difference assuming graveyards aren't interfered with in the interim, however it's not clear you're going to get to goyf 2 if goyf 1 was eventually reduced to chump-blocking something bigger than him across the table.
We'll have to see how it plays out. I suppose the odds are that people will initially go 4x Tarmogoyf and 3x Lorescale Coatl (likely replacing Nimble Mongoose completely) and we'll see how the two play side by side.
Anyone planning on playing this in a bauble deck?
ROFL! Sweet tech!Quote:
Originally Posted by quicksilver
@Fool: But Goyf CAN come down on turn 2 and he gets bigger from playing spells - not just DRAW spells. Hell, Goyf could be the only spell I play that game and he still could be huge. Playing Goyf on turn 5 will 95% of the time (I did a study) be a scarier play than playing Coat-tail. That being said, of course I realize that you are not arguing for Goyfs exclusion for this guy. Maybe we should really shift the discussion to WHAT to replace in Thresh. I'd hate to see Goose go for this guy. A critter base in the typical UGW could look like 4Goose/4Goyf/2Coat-tail (replacing Enforcer). But even then, I might prefer the Enforcer for messing with Snuff Out and Tombstalker.
In goldfish, yes. But consider the following on turn 3:Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
2/2: Swing!
Coatle: No blocks. Wait until I get that counters!
2/2: BTW, bolt you.
Coatle: *Facepalm*
2/2: Swing!
Goyf: Block?
2/2: I'm not going to die alone, bolt you!
Goyf: 2 for 1, I'll take.
Which one looks better on defence? Remeber the main resaon that Thresh could be the best deck was the fact that the Goyf was good on D so the deck can handle goblins.
Back from testing some more. Just a few scattered (but relevant) comments:
I've been retooling Thresh and NLU decks to suit Coatl. You are definitely going to have to play a more long-term control role to get your mileage out of Coatl (moving towards NLU, ITF and very aggressive Landstill). The more of the control role you play, the better the card gets.
Very playable cards, and not auto-includes (StP, Force, etc.), that got much better with Coatl.
Spell Snare
Path to Exile
Engineered Explosives
Vedalken Shackles
Academy Ruins
Pernicious Deed
Intuition/Loam/Late-game.cards
Daze is a tricky card in decks where Coatl belongs. I've found it worth playing, but others honestly might not. Spell Snare was a very reasonable replacement if you weren't already running it.
Also, his mana cost and the control playstyle to which he lends himself pushes you towards a higher land count. 19-land min, 20-land preferred.
Sylvan Library was a waste. It was win-more. It jockeyed for role-position with Top, and while you can shuffle Top away, you can't shuffle Library away as easily. With Top remaining the fundamental piece to CB, Library lacks a real role. CB/Top and 4x BS/Ponder with no library has been best in testing.
I have to say, like Tarmogoyf, Coatl is a card that your opponent must answer. While he lacks the immediate defensive qualities of Tarmogoyf on first entering play, living for a single turn usually puts him to 4/4 or better. Offensively, as just a raw win condition, Coatl has usually been better than Tarmogoyf. He has been a very powerful bluff card as well. The fact that StP hits this card just makes the rest of your threats that would have received it a little bit safer.
My record with him (I was in a tight spot): 2/2 to 18/18 in one turn (that was a cool one-shot).
He is also anywhere from a 'meh' decent card to perhaps a serious piece of shit to see in your opening grip. I've been running 4 to maximize my playtesting with the card, but running 3 may be the optimal choice when you have 12x Cantrips (Top/BS/P). At least the card pitches to Force (and that rocks).
He is a damn fine card (better than I originally thought, although I was pretty skeptical). You can drop'n'forget the card or play excellent combat tricks with him. He grows much faster than you would initially think. I'm an odd one though. As situationally amazing as Nimble Mongoose can be, I think the card really lacks value in Thresh, especially in any variety that is edging towards the control role. Coatl does effectively replace Goose in control-heavy decks.
Also, for g2/3, we shouldn't neglect the fact that Coatl's p/t has nothing to do with your graveyard. That has been nice.
peace,
4eak