Epic Fail on my part, disregard that post, i apologize for cluttering the thread. I failed to read the card on two counts.
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Epic Fail on my part, disregard that post, i apologize for cluttering the thread. I failed to read the card on two counts.
Possible additions/backup to the deck:
Tombstalker - seems to be hardcastable w/ delve ability and rainbow lands
Necromancy - 3cc reanimator if ever fatties got discarded / edict'd / wrath'd
although it may not work w/ Progenitus
Oblivion Ring - pretty much discussed to take out humility and other annoying stuff
Thoughts?
I was loking at mtgsalvation forums and saw the following list posted by Fossil4182 (thanks fossil):
Creatures: (18)
Ball Lightning x4
Groundbreaker x4
Blistering Firecat x4
Blitz Hellion x4
Thunderblust x2 (or Hellkite Overlord)
Cascade Spells/Combo (10)
Violent Outburst x4
Demonic Dread x4
Hypergenesis x2
Protection Spells/Awesome Spells/Whatever (12)
Unmask x4
Dark Triumph x4
Snuff Out x4
Mana Base (20)
Simian Spirit Guide x4
Wooded Foothill x4
Bloodstained Mire x2
Taiga x4
Badlands x4
Bayou x2
Thew explanation of the choices he has chosen is in:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showt...=158824&page=4
Now iīm asking you, could this deck be viable??
I think the deck is better because all creatures can be played without cascade-genesis, they are very big and can finish the game very fast.
I think we can replace the dark triump with Bloodbraid Elf so if we play it with genesis we will cascade for another ball lightning or ground breaker or another cascade spell in order to more combo.
What do you think about this version?
Seriously? That list is on the previous page, posted by the same user with the same username.Quote:
Originally Posted by zabuza
And while no one has addressed it just yet. this deck's weaknesses are many, the fact that the creatures probably won't get the job done unimpeded is at the top of the concern list, then there is the fact that it doesn't use the two best cascade spells. Then there is the amount of chaff cards, it doesn't use Forbidden Orchard to ensure that Demonic Dread has a target, and sometimes Goyf will just be good enough to stop lethal from coming though, you'll never have a second chance at winning because you will need to refill your hand. There are 15 cards that can work to turn Unmask on (assuming you want to play one) 4 of (Dark Triumph) them are only good for that purpose and 4 of them are combo pieces.
While this list does propose the most stable mana base, because it is in three colors, it also presents the worst chances of actually winning. You cannot drop 2 creatures into play with this build and expect to win, you nearly always will need to play 4. Burn can beat this deck because you can play Lightning Bolt or drop a Mogg Fanatic off Hypergenesis as a way to prevent 6+ damage and kill a creature.
Like this build, both of the previous builds use creatures with huge bodies and a drawback. The previous decks had the drawback of the fact that the creatures are unplayable without Hypergenesis or some other enabler. In this instance, the drawback is that they do not have a good half-life and are easily killed. I don't understand why you would want to Hypergenesis these guys into play rather than just play them. The result will likely be the same - you won't be able to win, but at least you're not utilizing a combo that takes away from the strength of the deck.
So, in short - I do not think much of the build.
Well, iīm going to answer all the things you said in the above post, but first a new list with some improvements (i think so) iīve maid to the fossilīs list.
Creatures: (30)
Ball Lightning x4
Groundbreaker x4
Blistering Firecat x4
Blitz Hellion x4
Thunderblust x2
Shriekmaw x 4
BloodBraid elf x 4
Greater gargadon x 4
Cascade Spells/Combo (10)
Violent Outburst x4
Demonic Dread x4
Hypergenesis x2
Mana Base (20)
Wooded Foothill x4
Bloodstained Mire x4
Taiga x4
Badlands x4
Bayou x4
The good things:
- You can win games without hypergenesis, you are not hyper-dependent like other versions so you can play one 6-7 damage monster after another till you win the game (is not difficult).
-More stable manabase (you have 8 fetch) to thin the deck and to look for the land you want in the right moment.
-All creatures can be sac to gargadon in order to deal a brutal amount of damage and making the monster appearance sooner and sooner. The idea of the deck is turn 1 play gargadon, turn 2 (shriekmaw if needed and sacced), turn 3 ball and sac, and then you could play gargadon in nesto or so turn if needed.
Beside of that, with this version you have plenty of creatures to play with if you combo out and remember you have shriekmaw to kill any stuff opponent plays with genesis and have a 3 power with fear body to deal the last dameges.
Another card is very useful is bloodbraid elf who can cascade and combo out.With the elf some interesting things can happen:
- You play the elf and reveal one of the 8 balls. Wonderfull, you are beating from 9 in a turn with only one card of your hand and with a 3/2 critter reamining in table to still attack next turns.
- You are comboing and play the elf with genesis on table and a balla apears (better than first scenario, one more 6 haste trample beater to care about)
- You are not comboing and play the elf and one of the cascade spells appears. Wonderful, you are now comboing out.
- You are comboing and play the elf with genesis. A cascade spell appears ( if violent outburst you are giving all your beaters +2/+0 (if first card combo was another violent), if demonic dread you are tapping another opponent creature (which can have been played with genesis), and any mix of the cascade spells.
- A hypergenesis appears. If you are not comboing then you are now. If you were, sorry but is the only dead scenario, but itīs lot improbable because you only have 2 hypergenesis)
There is lot of sinergy with the whole deck and sideboarding provides you lot of interesting options.
Because lot of your creatures are elementals you can use patriarchīs bidding, living death, living end (to abuse cascade) or something like that.
You can also play restore balance to combo with gargaddon (and probably nihilith) and win the game and can play evoke creatures(chewer, wispmare) to destroy artifacts or enchntments that can be sacced to gargaddon.
Another interesting sideboard card is Dosan the falling leave how protect us from counters.
I think the deck is stable (one thing it wasnīt before) and can combo in third turn consistently or win with monster beatings.
Deck is not perfect, lot of improvement can still be made, (like adding gemstone cavern to make the deck comboing in turn 2 or so) and things like that, but i think is the way to go because in other versions if you canīt play genesis you are absolutely dead (and are mana risky a lot).
Why would anybody run Ball Lightning over Hellkite Overlord? Are you really going to win casting Ball Lightnings? That's like a turn 7 Goldfish if your opponent does nothing.
At least Hellkite Overlord lets you have a fallback plan (and works for Unmask), not to mention doing more damage, flying, and not dying to Mogg Fanatic, bolt, etc.
Because hellkite is going to stay in your hand doing NOTHING till game end and ball lightnings will attack alone in turn 3 or 4.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
The reason for not playing big dudes is because they are going to sit in your hand and if you can combo out (this situation is easy) you are going to lose without doing anything.
Decks that use fanatic or lkightning bolts are not well prepared to answer our combo so we can win them playng 3/4 balls in a only turn by genesis.
Other decks that you canīt combo, will be the scenario were you can play ball after ball till you win.
I was thinking about another idea to refill your hand in this deck and remember browbeat. This cards can finish the opponent or give you the extra fuel you need to do it. What do you think about?
2 zabuza
sorry, but ''put'' and ''play'' are different things. you can't ''play'' anything by genesis, you can just ''put'' it into play, so elf from genesis is just a 3/2 haste, nothing more. dunno, i think cutting spirit guides isn't worth getting a 4cc 3/2 haste guy.
also, i think in legacy City of Solitude is better than Dosan.
about balls version in general: why to play it? sure, it can win without combo (though it meets additional problems with cards like fanatic, plague and even deed), but looks like this is the only way it can win at the same time. i mean, your opponent has 19 hp, 1 goyf and 1 stp in his hand, not very rare situation, right? so how much creatures u need to win by genesis? umm, 5-6 ones depending on their power, how often will you have them? at the same time a shroud version can win with only 1-2 creatures. any overlords or combofinish version - with 2-3 ones. also, cutting guides makes a deck slower, cutting fows makes it unprotected. mb just to play some kind of sligh? :rolleyes:
no offence, but i really can't get it. the idea of genesis is the ability to cast the uncastable. to be able to play a couple of 3cc's faster there are a lot more stable things. for example, Seething Song :smile:
Use Show and Tell as a backup plan i guess to put fatties in play U2 aint that hard to do compared to GGG or RRR...
Idyllic Tutor seems like a good choice instead of going for a 4c or 5c list. Then you can simply run a UW list (you know what I mean)
I've been thinking about:
4x Force of Will
2x Pyrokinesis
3x Misdirection
4x Fire//Ice (This works, right? CMC is 2 and 2, so 4 is it not? Need a ruling to make sure it won't screw with my Cascade.)
3x Oblivion Ring
4x Idyllic Tutor
4x Ardent Plea
2x Hypergenesis
4x Progenitus
3x Inkwell Leviathan
3x Simic Sky Swallower
3x Bogardan Hellkite
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Volcanic
4x Tundra
2x Island
2x Plains
1x Mountain
4x Flooded Strand
2x Polluted Delta
As an alternative you can run black with Unmasks or something, I just liked some of the little synergies here. All of my creatures can be pitched to effects. Hellkites, progenitus and Fires Can be pitched to Pyrokinesis while every other fatty, and Ices can be tossed to Force/MisD, You can use Firespouts in the SB to take down Goblins or Merfolk. O-Rings are for problem cards such as Moat, Humility, 3sphere (Ice helps here also), etc., Fire takes down Magus of the Moon and other problem Bears as well as Lackey etc. We all know the versatility of Fire/Ice, which is why I'm hoping it works with Cascade.
Pce,
--DC
Dark_Cynic87, such split cards don't work, it was discussed somewhere at the top of page 3.
And pay six mana instead of three to start your combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
6 mana is acceptable. 3WWU isn't terrible, especially with removal and counters maindecked. Rolling over and playing dead to Blood Moon and Trinisphere seems like a worse plan.
I've got accelerators (SSG), it's not that big of a deal.
Pce,
--DC
It will see a card with 2 cmc so it will end the cascade. You can then chose to play any side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Its funny with boom//bust. Play it on the low side, choose to play the high side for armageddon.
Idyllic Tutor seems to be strictly worse than Intuition (which can also fetch Show and Tell against Chalices postboard).
i wonder if there is any combo which can work in a such way:
1) play Intuition searching cards X, Y and Z
2) don't care about what they would choose for you
3) cascade into Hypergenesis and instantly win somehow using cards X, Y and Z
if there is something like it, Intuition can become a wonderful addition for this deck. if no, then it seems to be just too slow, not allowing turn 1-2 kills.
You mean something like 3x Demigod of Revenge?Quote:
Originally Posted by ykpon
no, something that works with Hypergenesis :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by kroelai
This is a really bad idea. You're trying to turn a massively redundant 2 card combo (you need 1 of 12ish tinkers and 1+ of 12-16ish dudes) into a very specific 2 card card (1 of 12ish tinkers and 1 of 4 Intuition) just to win on the spot. Putting large, evasive, shrouded guys into play is going to win 99% of the games that going infinite will, but it doesn't limit you as to what your other combo card is.
Anyway, to my knowledge, no such piles exist with Intuition (unless your opponent screws up), but one does exist with Gifts Ungiven: Karmic Guide, Kiki-Jiki, Pestermite/Sky Hussar, Necromancy.
The reason for suggesting Intuition is that it's flexible to find creatures, cascade spells, protection, or removal (postboard) and can also find something like Show & Tell post-board as well in the face of Chalices (letting you run essentially 8 Show and Tells).
What about Decree of Silence, Arcane Lab, Progenitus? That's a done deal no matter what. 2 turns to win because Progenitus doesn't get blocked (Chuck Freakin' Norris), 20 damage, only 2 spells can be played by them before they die, the next 3 spells are countered so no Wrath of God, nothing.
I was also thinking about using Bond of Agony, but it was crappy in the maindeck, so I thought some form of alternate win-con, like against lists (Stax) who would opt for stuff like Ghostly Prison/Propaganda or the big killer, Ensnaring Bridge. Then I saw Bond of Agony and if the ruling sticks, I'd say some amount of Bond of Agony and some amount of Illusions of Grandeur in place of creatures, leaving in the Hypergenesis. The idea would be to drop a Cascade spell, hit H-Genesis, drop Illusions of Grandeur and another card with Cascade, let HG resolve, gain 20 life, cascade resolves running through and hitting the Bond of Agony so a Fireblast won't end you. Just chain your Cascade Spells. Random could be bad (not knowing if you are going to hit Bond or HG first), but IDK if it's too big of a deal because fetches are so popular that since we don't use them they will probably have less life than us.
Pce,
--DC