Is Entomb better or worse than Gamble in Aggro Loam? Worse, right?
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Is Entomb better or worse than Gamble in Aggro Loam? Worse, right?
Worse in red builds I think. Gamble gives you the chance of putting LFTL in your hand letting you maybe use it this turn. Entomb would get you closer to play GBw Aggro Loam though. Without knowing a lot about the reasons for playing red over white and/or black, is Gamble the actual card you're gaining? I've seen lists with Burning Wish, Devastating Dreams, and Countryside Crusher all figuring prominently so I'm not sure that Gamble is even the point in that color (although obviously nice).Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
I say unbanned the dumb shit before doing something as stupid as banning top.
To be honest, I haven't really seen much Gamble in Aggro Loam, mostly just 43lands. In that deck I'd definitely take Gamble, as you can't get a Manabond or Exploration with Entomb. It's probably the same in Aggro Loam if you chose to run it, you can't Entomb up your Burning Wish or Devastating Dreams. Of course, Entomb is a great card and I could easily see decklists being revamped to make good use of it. But just as a strict-substitution type of thing, I don't think it's very impressive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
I pose a question for everyone: If you could unban some stuff for Legacy, what would you unban?
Personally, I think that combo has been lacking power. Looking at the DTB lists, I see CounterTop, TempoThresh, Landstill, Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo and ANT. A single combo deck that I expect to fall off from the DTB section. Let's face it...combo needs some love.
I've been going over the B&R List for Legacy and after some thinking and having the dream hypothetical situation of unbanning a card.
Although it's a niche card that would only go in 2 decks, I'd pick Frantic Search. I know I'm not the only player who misses Solidarity. I'm about 99% positive that it wouldn't be played in aggro. And I'm pretty sure control has better cards to run. Black based storm decks have Ad Nausem and would most likely avoid FS because of it's 3cc. But Spring Tide and Solidarity might make a comeback if it was unbanned.
It's not like I'm asking for anything insanely powerful like Goblin Recruiter or Oath of Druids. Just a card that fills a small niche to potentially resurrect an old favorite of mine :P
Banning Top would help combo more than unbanning any card that is unplayable right now because of the Counterbalance + Top combo. The mere fact of unbanning something is because it no longer can affect significatively this meta.
That card was just the final nail on the coffin.
Top has legitimate uses outside of counterbalance/top. It's used in control decks, like landstill or Quinn as a way of digging for answers. It's used in some combo decks, like Doomsday, as both a setup tool and a combo engine.
These uses of top aren't breaking the format, they even allow more deck diversity. Most of the complaints against top are aimed at the counterbalance lock.
Counterbalance doesn't really have any legitimate uses outside of CB/top. It wouldn't be used if top were banned. Banning top would be like banning two cards, and would hurt some decks that are using top in a fair manner. Banning counterbalance, on the other hand... That'd solve the CB lock problem, and it would leave the deck variety that top creates.
If CB/Top needs to be banned, take out Counterbalance, but please leave the top.
Well the reason Top got the axe in Extended was to "speed up the game". If Top does get the axe in Legacy though, then combo will get a huge boost.
As far as something coming off the List, I would love to see Dream Halls. I have a hard on for that card.
Most of the reasons people give to ban top are not for the cb lock as far i am concerned. It's mainly because it slows games too muchQuote:
Originally Posted by Carabas
Finally someone who get it....Quote:
Originally Posted by Carabas
Those reasons are bullshit. If you wanted to speed up the game you'd ask them to ban fetchlands.Quote:
Originally Posted by johanessen
A single top slows more the game than a full set of fetchlands. And those reasons are not bullshit: see the ban in Extended, or Sharazad.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
It takes three seconds to look at the top three cards of your library, but thirty to find a card and thoroughly randomize it.Quote:
Originally Posted by johanessen
I'm wondering why you think those are examples of not-bullshit.Quote:
And those reasons are not bullshit: see the ban in Extended, or Sharazad.
See;
Wrath of God, Counterspell, Smokestack, every control spell ever.
really? I've never gone to time playing CB top in any tournament. Maybe people need to call a judge to watch for slow play. There is no reason top slows down the game. If you know your deck and understand the lines of play it should take a few seconds to set up your library. Speeding up the game is an illegitimate reason to ban top.Quote:
Originally Posted by johanessen
Top is the strongest card quality card in the format. All decks can play it, which means you either play 4, play a deck that beats decks playing Tops (ichorid/White stax) or you are at a huge disadvantage to resolved tops (tempo/landstill/merfolk)
People dont really see how gamebreaking the card is because its a consistent small innocious advantage past the first turn.
Quote:
Originally Posted by irrelevant
Again, we are not talking about cb, we are talking about TOP.
Blame on Counterbalance. There are still Chalice/Trinisphere/Force/Stifle to keep combo in check. But nothing to keep in check aggro/control. Oh, well, Krosan Grip. But when your opponent continues to flip Shackles/his own Grips/Trinket Mages, then you'll see how Counterbalance is annoying. They say Stompy decks beat Counterbalance. Well, T1 Top, if it escapes Chalice, and T2 Counterbalance, if it hits the field, can and will shut down a deck, regardless of its curve. I once lost a game because my opponent just kept a 3cmc on top of his deck, then rearranged it to second from the top, drew the card in his turn, and pretty much countered everything I proposed. Blood Moon? Flips Shackles. Dragon? Flips Sower. Slogger? It hasn't a FoW in the top3, but has one in hand. See, if anything goes through Counter/Top, there is still conventional countermagic to deal with. Leave the top, take the Counterbalance. Yes, I'm whining, because I actually think it's not helpful for the format. There are still EE/Chalice/Deed which help avoiding fast aggro to become rampant, and the combo winter is just a thing some guy said because he still wanted to play Counterbalance. You can say, "then play your own Counterbalance". This is design constraint. I want to play the deck I like, which is Dragon Stompy, without having to worry about some :u::u: enchantment. I'm not saying "hell I want to play my 40 relentless-rats-and-20 swamps.deck". Fuck, Dragon Stompy. It is possible that if I don't draw my Chalices or they get countered, I am defeated by a single, dumb card? And I play a deck with a high curve. Imagine what Zoo players do think about this...
P.S. Nothing actually needs to be banned, but I would be happy seeing that card gone. Keep the top, take the Cbalance. Even if it is detrimental for the format, I hope my wishes can become true.
P.P.S. I know they banned nothing 3 months ago, so nothing will change this time...
EDIT: atm Tarmogoyf is in 2nd place. Didn't they say they won't ban vanilla creatures or am I wrong?
Aren't the changes, if any, not until 20th September? Not the 1st anymore...
I thought they changed it!?
The announcement is still 1st, even though the changes aren't valid until the 20th.
I thought the announcement will be on the 20th, and effective on October 1st: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...ly/feature/15aQuote:
Originally Posted by DrJones