This deck is not going to be able to cut it in a Veggie-filled meta. Wait for storm combo decks to push out the veggies then play this to fight storm.
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This deck is not going to be able to cut it in a Veggie-filled meta. Wait for storm combo decks to push out the veggies then play this to fight storm.
He's probably right, you can't play this in a meta infested with survival without damaging your other match ups.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Well, I've been awol for a long time. It's unfortunate that this deck has had 0 interest since then. Anyway, after looking at the way I innovated the deck in the past, and looking at the current metagame, there are a few changes I would make. The biggest change would be cutting Wrath of God out completely. I used to absolutely love this card, and I've always been stubborn about cutting it, but it just has so much going against it anymore. Specifically against Vengevival, WoG does nothing to Vengevines. Even still, it's horrible against Merfolk (one of my worst matchups), it's slow against Zoo, and it's strong against matchups that are already very strong (Bant w/ out NOProg).
Even if Survival (or Vengevine) does get banned, I still think evolving the deck to cut WoG makes sense. Honestly, the way the deck performs, it really doesn't want the opponent to have multiple creatures in play at a time. Whether that be through spot removal, countermagic, or whatever, the opponent will rarely have 3+ creatures in play at once, and if they do, I'm likely dead regardless if I can cast WoG. Forcing the opponent to overcommit with Elspeth and Kor Haven is nice, but controlling the aggro in play through Vedlaken Shackles and CounterTop just seems more efficient.
Cutting WoG also decreases my dependance on double white, allowing me to further strengthen the focus on double blue (through actual manabase construction, the way I fetch lands during actual gameplay, etc).
I also like how cutting WoG enables the opportunity to tighten the curve for Counterbalance even further.
Now, I'm not sure that the evolved deck would necessarily be a strong metagame force right now, since I have no playtesting data whatsoever, but I still believe the deck is very strong. It has the ability to beat any deck with correct play, because it has answers between maindeck and sideboard for literally everything, and the metagame is always shifting (meaning there is always opportunities for control to make a ressurgence).
Here's the current version:
U/W/b WalkerTop
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
5 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [NE] Kor Haven
// Spells
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Predict
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [IA] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [AP] Vindicate
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [FNM] Duress
SB: 4 [PLC] Extirpate
I love how the 2 Vedalken Shackles feel like Planeswalker's #5 and #6. They are an amazing anti aggro replacement for Wrath of God that simply work much better in this deck for numerous reasons.
The addition of Path to Exile is in response to Vengevine (before, the black removal package was an answer to NOProg and Reanimator/Iona). However, they are amazing against most of the field, regardless of Vengevines.
Extirpate in the sideboard is a direct response to Vengevival, while being useful against Dredge.
I'm also interested in testing -1 Plains, -2 Elspeth, +1 Island, +2 Jace. I'm still confident in the 2/2 split for various reasons, but completely removing WW from the deck while upping my blue spell count to 23 does sound attractive.
I tried 4 Jace in a similar walker control deck, but with no counterbalance, and thought it was better than running Elspeth.
To strengthen the merfolk match up I suggest Peacekeeper, which completely shuts them down, and also helps vs. Vengevival/Random Aggro Decks.
If survival does get banned, I think the red splash will be better than the black splash, as Merfolk/Goblins/Zoo will likely increase in popularity again.
Nice to see you back in the thread Hanni
I tested both configurations a while back, and I found the 2/2 split to be better for a number of reasons.Quote:
I tried 4 Jace in a similar walker control deck, but with no counterbalance, and thought it was better than running Elspeth.
1) You can only play 1 Jace at a time, but you can have Elspeth and Jace in play at the same time.
2) The split diversifies wincons against random jank like Pithing Needle and Extirpate.
3) Elspeth is better against aggro in most situations I encounter.
4) Elspeth is better against opposing Jace's in the mirror.
There's more that I cannot think of right now, but I like Elspeth. I only mentioned wanting to test 4 Jace because of the new changes (I like to explore all avenues).
How popular is the Merfolk matchup these days? I've significantly strengthed the maindeck matchup against Merfolk already. But if it's still popular, I could board Peackeeper's.Quote:
To strengthen the merfolk match up I suggest Peacekeeper, which completely shuts them down, and also helps vs. Vengevival/Random Aggro Decks.
I pretty much win most random aggro matchups. As far as Vengevival is concerned, how many lists are still running without either creature removal or the alt Ooze win con?
That's may be true, although I'm still partial to the black splash.Quote:
If survival does get banned, I think the red splash will be better than the black splash, as Merfolk/Goblins/Zoo will likely increase in popularity again.
Thanks =]Quote:
Nice to see you back in the thread Hanni
EDIT: I just encountered a specific situation on MWS that I can use to illustrate the power of the 2/2 split of Elspeth/Jace. I was playing against UGwr Supreme Blue, and he had 2 Rhox War Monk's in play and had me down to 10. I had a Top in play, and my only relevant answer on the top was Elspeth, which I dropped, making a 1/1 token and ramping to 5. On the next turn, he swung into my 1/1 and my Elspeth (down to 2 counters). Next turn, I rip a Path, hit one of the Rhox's, and make another 1/1. At this point, we go back and forth for about 6 or so turns with him swinging into my 1/1. Finally, I rip a Jace, and after a few turns of Brainstorm'ing with him, I find an answer to the 3/4 (Vindicate I think). From there, I proceed to win.
(I ended up going 2-0 against him btw).
If Elspeth had been Jace in that situation, I would have been fucked.
Well, I think I'll leave the list I'm currently testing:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
5 Island
2 Plains
2 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain
1 Academy Ruins
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Predict
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Firespout
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
Note that this is desinged for the following metagame (ignore the survival decks), aka 03479438574975045 aggro decks:
Metagame
Zoo: 5
Goblins: 5
Merfolks: 4
Eva Green: 4
Dredge: 3
WW: 3
Mono Red Burn: 3
Landstill: 2
Pro Bant: 2
UW Control: 2
Mono Black Aggro: 2
Sneak Attack: 2
UW Fish: 2
Mono Green Destroyland: 1
Solidarity: 1
Infect: 1
Chaimera: 1
Painter: 1
Survival WG: 1
Aggro Loam: 1
Canadian ********: 1
TPS: 1
Belcher: 1
Dark Depths: 1
BW Aggro: 1
Dark Horizons: 1
BG Control: 1
Pox: 1
Mono Green Aggro: 1
Enchantress: 1
Survival UGw: 2
Survival GB: 1
Survival UG: 1
I was one of the guys running Landstill. Naturally, I run into the other landstill player in round 2...
Went to 14 man tourney today. I finished the day with 1-2-2. My record would have been 3-1-1 if I didn't make some huge misplay. I absolutely love this deck. Over half of the meta was Goblin and Merfolk.
Spell: 37
4x Brainstorm
4x Predict
4x Sword to Plowshares
4x Force of Will
2x Oblivion Ring
3x Counterspell
2x Path to Exile
2x Firespout
4x Sensei’s Divining Top
4x Counterbalance
2x Elspeth the Knight Errant
2x Jace the Mind Sculptor
Land: 23
4x Flooded Strand
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Arid Mesa
1x Polluted Delta
1x Misty Rainforest
3x Volcanic Island
3x Tundra
5x Island
2x Plain
1x Academy Ruin
1x Kor Haven
SB: 15
2x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Firespout
3x Relic of Progenitus
1x Path to Exile
2x Pithing Needle
2x Engineered Explosive
2x Vendillion Clique
RD 1 GB Survival: 2-1
GM 1 He has no survival and I assemble quick countertop lock. Turn 5 JTMs and he scoops.
GM 2 Survival on turn 3 that I have no answer. He attack for 12 on turn 4 and I scoop.
GM 3 Went on about 40 mins. Pithing Needle on SOTF and he cast goyf on turn 2. I assemble early countertop lock again and manage to dig up 2 relic. He was forced to krosan grip the needle. I have 2 Relic in play and Firespout in hand and I kept on drawing answer to his threat. At one point, he just tutor up Vengevine every turn and play 4 mana to play it and I kept STP/PTE. He then scoop to Jace Ultimate.
RD 2 RB Goblin: 1-1-1
GM 1 He had turn 1 Lackey met by a STP. He had no threat on turn 2 and I play top. I assemble countertop on turn 3 and won on the back of Jace.
GM 2 Turn 1 needle on JTMS and he just keep porting my 2 land and land vial. Couldn't find my Firespout in time. I manage to get elspeth out and bought couple turn. I then die to Siege gang.
GM 3 The round only has 3 min left, so my hand was top, PTE, STP, Firespout, 3 land. I kill everything I see and time was up.
RD 3 UB Merfolk: 0-2
GM 1 Giant misplay on game 1. I kept on answering his threat, but I fetch Tundra instead of plain. He cut off my white and I was holding 2 STP and PTE. He finished me with Mutavaults.
GM 2 It is about the same. I answer some threat. Firespout once. He has a lvl 4 corehelm and I try to dig for removal. I get elspeth out to buy some time. He topdecked a mutavault and I lose.
RD 4 RB Goblin: 0-2 (Friend)
This was a friend of mine and we showed each other decklist right before the tourney, so we knew each other deck. I am 0-3 against him now.
GM 1 He has an insane opening. 3 vial on turn 3. Blind flip counterbalance and fail. He vial in lackey that I have no answer for. I lose quickly.
GM 2 Got mana flooded. After brainstorm, top, shuffling my deck twice, all I saw was land.
RD 5 UBR Dreadstill 1-1-1
GM 1 We were both trying to resolve counterbalance and both have answer for each other. Another mistake. I got elspeth to 9 and ultimate. I forgot that he ran stifle. He stifle my Elspeth Ultimate. He beat me down with factory slowly.
GM 2 He tried to turn 3 Standstill, but I played clique in response. He tried to force the clique, but I force back. He was holding a REB but no red source. My clique was racing with his 2 factory. He end up breaking Standstill 2 turn later. Assemble Countertop, drew a PTE and Elspeth. PTE a factory and Clique went all the way.
GM 2 The round only have 5 mins left. I assemble turn 3 Countertop lock that he has no answer for. He manage to resolve a Dreadnought while I tap out, but I have Oblivion Ring waiting. I have both JTMS and Elspeth in play and ramping counter, but time went out.
I feel that I could have won the GM 1 Merfolk and GM 1 Dreadstill if I played correctly.This deck is really powerful. People were holding removal in their hand. They have nowhere to use but on the solider token. The only problem I have is this deck take a long time to finish people that almost all my round went to time if not tie, so I always have to win Gm 1 to ensure to have at least a tie.
There are some cards I am not too impress. I had shackle in my first version. The problem it is too slow against tribal and I got the STP/PTE on the Goyf/Knight. Oblivion Ring was solid, but it is too slow if the whole meta is aggro.
What are your thoughts about Trinket Mage? It is a body. It fetches top, explosive, needle and land. Getting Needle would help shore up against vial and manland. Grabing a land on 3rd turn trinket mage can almost ensure I have my 4th land and land one of the walker.
I love needle in this deck. It answers 2 things that I worry about the most. Manland and vial.
I am going to make these changes:
MD:
-1 Predict
-1 Top
-2 Oblivion Ring
-1 Polluted Delta
-1 Misty Rainforest
-1 Island
+2 Trinket Mage
+1 Needle
+1 Explosive
+1 Scalding Tarn
+1 Arid Mesa
+1 Seat of the Synod
SB:
-1 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Engineered Explosive
SB:
+1 Firespout
+1 Tormod's Crypt
Well, there is nothing better than hearing your opponent go "well, I guess I'll StP your token." Gained you 4 life, woops.Quote:
People were holding removal in their hand. They have nowhere to use but on the solider token.
Shackles is slow vs. Merfolk, and the Islandwalk renders it pretty useless. But it can be quite useful vs. Goblins, you can play cat and mouse game with an active shackles, they won't attack fearing a 2 x 1.
If your meta is chokefull of Goblins and Merfolk, add a 3rd Firespout main. It is also useful vs. random aggro decks.
I've never tried Trinket, but I guess it could work. Adam Prosak ran them in his UW countertop deck.
Shackles is useful against pretty much any non-combo deck, really. You're running spot removal (swords and maybe paths) as well as firespouts that you can easily live long enough to get shackles online. For merfolk islandwalk is likewise not a huge deal because you have so many answers to it already.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Treefolk Master
I wasn't expecting so much aggro. It was like everyone I saw was playing the same deck.
My land was constantly harass yesterday with wasteland and port. I didn't think I could have got shackle online in some match if I have them. I ll do more testing on it in next couple days.
Trinket Mage is an option, but I'm not a big fan. 2U for a 2/2 body is mostly irrelevant in today's format, and it also turns on the opponent's otherwise dead spot removal. Having an artifact toolbox isn't a bad idea, especially with Top and EE being amazing cards in the deck, but the deck runs enough redundancy to not really need any tutoring effects. If you want to try Trinket Mage out, you're more than welcome to. For me personally, Trinket Mage is just as cumbersome as Cunning Wish.Quote:
What are your thoughts about Trinket Mage? It is a body. It fetches top, explosive, needle and land. Getting Needle would help shore up against vial and manland. Grabing a land on 3rd turn trinket mage can almost ensure I have my 4th land and land one of the walker.
How does Islandwalk render it useless? You control magic their Lords of Atlantis if they have one in play...Quote:
Shackles is slow vs. Merfolk, and the Islandwalk renders it pretty useless. But it can be quite useful vs. Goblins, you can play cat and mouse game with an active shackles, they won't attack fearing a 2 x 1.
If they have multiples... well, they shouldn't have multiples. If they do have multiples, then you'll use Shackles to steal one of their Lords of Atlantis, until you can kill the other(s).
The Merfolk matchup is the number one reason why I'm running Shackles; Shackles is devastating in that matchup.
Merolk is a slow aggro deck when you compare it to an aggro deck like Zoo, and it's strength comes from the free "tempo" countermagic and its ability to apply pressure every turn (too many threats to answer them all). Vedalken Shackles is a constant source of creature removal, and is vital to winning game 1's against Merfolk. Also, since Vedalken Shackles is an artifact and not an instant/sorcery, it can be cast through Cursecatchers.
QFT. The deck uses its spot removal to handle early threats until Shackles gets online, and once Shackles is online, it becomes a constant source of creature removal. It has directly replaced Wrath of God in my deck as my card advantage removal spell of choice.Quote:
Shackles is useful against pretty much any non-combo deck, really. You're running spot removal (swords and maybe paths) as well as firespouts that you can easily live long enough to get shackles online. For merfolk islandwalk is likewise not a huge deal because you have so many answers to it already.
If you play a manabase similar to mine, Wasteland should be a non-issue. Even the combination of Wasteland/Port is relatively easy to play through. My manabase is far more robust and stable than other control decks like Landstill (especially 4c versions), which is one of the major strengths of this deck. I think you either fetched poorly, had bad draws, or got extremely unlucky, if Wasteland/Port was causing you problems all day. My most recent list has 7 fetches that can grab basic Island, and 5 basic Islands; Shackles only costs 3 mana to put into play...Quote:
My land was constantly harass yesterday with wasteland and port. I didn't think I could have got shackle online in some match if I have them. I ll do more testing on it in next couple days.
This really only applies to game 1, because for sideboarding your opponent gets to bring out "dead" cards for cards that actually matter in the matchup. In some respects I like the idea of no creatures. However, in practice I've actually found it very useful to have a small number of creatures (usually goyf,though I realize this deck doesn't run him) because then you put your opponent in a really awkward situation where they need to be able to deal with too many different types of threats. That said, trinket mage is not the type of creature where this strategy really applies to, as he isn't really very fearsome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Lord of Atlantis affects all merfolk in play, regardless of their controller. So even if you steal the lord their guys can still islandwalk through you, with their +1/+1 bonus too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Shackles is indeed much better than wrath in my opinion for the constant source of creature removal. Additionally it virtually augments your win-cons if you play it on an empty board and steal their only creature, and is in general much more potent versus any type of control/aggro-control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
After reading everyone opinion, I am still going to try out the Trinket Mage. Having a tutor for needle and explosive is good thing. Cunning Wish is different because you have to devote slots in SB. However, I am going to move the Firespouts to the board and MD 2x Shackle for the time being to see how they hold up. Shackle can get everything (manland too) except Lord of Altantis. It also make my opponent commit more on the board. All my opponents expected that I run Firespout as soon as they see Volcanic Island and they started playing around it. Thanks you everyone for the quick feedback! Props to Hanni for creating this deck.
My SB now is probably going to be this:
2x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
3x Firespout
1x Relic of Progenitus
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Path to Exile
2x Pithing Needle
1x Engineered Explosive
2x Vendillion Clique
Hmm. In all fairness, I've only run into this situation a couple of times because I make LoA my priority target number one w/ spot removal (and the Shackles are a fairly recent addition), but my opponent's must have been idiots to let me block with the LoA I stole from them... and me being an idiot for not reading the damn card. Lulz all around.Quote:
Lord of Atlantis affects all merfolk in play, regardless of their controller. So even if you steal the lord their guys can still islandwalk through you, with their +1/+1 bonus too.
Has Brittle Effigy been considered in the Trinket package? It's slow as balls (duh), but this deck intends on surviving to the lategame. A tutorable, non-restrictive removal option for a late-game Trinket sounds viable. Also, while probably irrelevant, it does stop a non-haste Emrakul from SnT and an Iona on white from Reanimator. Worth a try if you're going with the Trinket Mage package.
Rather run Executioner's Capsule which can recur with Academy Ruins. Capsule should also be able to deal with Iona since they are primarily naming white against the deck, and is in every way more cost efficient and recurrable :)
I did a lot of testing against Goblin and Landstill last couple days. I was wrong about shackle. It is so good against everything except combo. It was a house against Goblin. Steal a Warchief to chump something. It make my opponent overextend into my Firespout. Shackle make vial less effective and make combat step more complicated. Against Landstill, I was able to prevent Factory beat down and won with Jace. My 2 shackle will never leave my MD now. It is THAT good.
I really really like this deck. I've been playing Landstill for over 5 years now and always liked the idea of BalanceTop in the deck.
I've tested a little the last couple of days and this deck really has game against everything in the format. Didn't make any changes except that I did swap out the 2 Path to Exiles with the EE's from the sb. EE is to good in almost every matchup imho. I'm also not as sold on Predict as most of you guys seem to be. Also, I still play with 2 WoG out of the side instead of the full four PtE.
I'll post some testing results when I have more data.
I won a local Legacy tournament with a straight UW version of this deck. Here is the list (bizarre cards explanations later):
8 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
1 Academy Ruins
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Predict
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Vedalken Shackles
SB:
4 Chill
1 Energy Flux
1 Serenity
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Day of Judgement
1 Wrath of God
1 Path to Exile
2 Submerge
3 Leyline of Sanctity
The Chills were in there because, before the tournament, I saw a whole lot of goblins/sligh/burn variants, so I decided to include them. In the end, there weren't so many of them, as everyone seemed to have another deck available...
The Leylines were against POX and discard heavy decks.
Now, the tournament:
Round 1 vs. UB Faeries
G1: He drops a turn 2 Cloud of Faeries which ends up taking life 10 life from me before I kill it. He drops Bitterblossom + another Cloud and I cast and blow up EE for 2. I then lock him out of the game with countertop and Jace him out.
G2: He misplays severely, and pitches cards like Vendilion Clique to fow to counter a Shackles when I have Academy Ruins in play. I drop Counterbalance, but he counters it and then extirpates it. He keeps drawing counters and dudes which I keep killing. Eventually, I establish control, but I'm at 2 life. I have a shackles grabing a Mistbind Clique, but I'm afraid to attack, fearing the V. Clique. He does a another misplay here. I have shackles, with the M. Clique under it, and he has a ratchet bomb with 3 counters. He should have blown the bomb during my EOT to get back his guy, swing and kill me. Instead, he upped his Bomb to 4 counters, so I A. Ruined back an EE and blew it up. I eventually land Jace and he concedes.
1-0
Round 2 vs. The Rock
G1: Not much to say here. He drops Putrid Leech, tries to put a Armadillo Cloak on it and I respond by plowing the little worm. I drop Countertop, so he doesn't get to ressolve anything. Then Shackles comes down. Then Jace. Then Elspeth. Then he dies.
G2: I don't get countertop online and he grips my Shackles, but I plow his few guys and mount a defence with Elspeth. Elspeth then goes ultimate and I bring a now indestructible shackles back with Academy Ruins. I steal his <INSERT FAT CREATURE HERE>, drop Jace to start fatesealing and ride the <INSERT FAT CREATURE HERE> to victory before I can deck him.
2-0
Round 3 vs. Affinity
G1: He crushes me G1 like affinity is ought to.
G2: My hand contains Brainstorm, Top, Misty Rainforest, Island, Energy Flux, 2 ???. I play island go. He plays Great Furnace go. I play Misty Rainforest, tap Island, drop Top go. He plays another Furnace, drops some Chromatic Stars and passes. I crack the fetchalnd, see with top, put a plains on top, drop energy flux. He gets his board obliterated and then scoops.
G3: Turn 2 Kataki takes a shit on his face.
3-0
Round 4 vs. Mono Black Suicide
G1: He mulls down to 4. I keep a hand with M. Forest + Plains as it's only mana sources. He plays first and Hymn's me on his second turn, hitting the plains. This could be bad,. I miss my land drop, while he is playing draw, swamp, go. However, I then rip 3 consecutive Flooded Strands like a champ. I drop Big Daddy Jace, brainstorm a bit and then fateseal him to death.
G3: All his "Dangerous" dudes are plowed or countered until I can drop shackles. I then hard cast leyline, so he can't hit me with discard. I play jace, he plays Powder Keg, and tries to kill my Jace & Leyline with Keg. I tell him to read his card and we laugh for a bit. After that, it is proven once again that Shackles > his deck.
4-0
Thoughts:
-Shackles is incredible, never running less than 2 ever again.
-Submerge was amazing vs. the rock deck, although that's on the common knowledge side.
-Don't sideboard chill. Ever. Just cram in more removal if you fear goblins.
-Explosives was very good, I'm not cutting it.
-I suggest everyone to try Ruins if their running EE. It is just that good.
-I also suggest going up to 3 Jace. It is probably the single most powerful card in the format.
Thats all for now.
Comments?
@ The Treefolk Master: Did you miss the 3rd color at all? You can only set explosive @ 0, 1, 2.
What is your plan against CBtop mirror? Merfolk? Goblin?
EE is a bit slow if the meta is fill with aggro, but they are really good at answering everything. I have those in the SB. I agree with you on the Shackle and Jace. Shackle is so good that you should never have less than 2. If I have a 3rd Jace, I ll definitely trying to fit him in the deck. He is really good.