[Deck] The Rock

@ Mulligans

I generally work with what I have b/c going down that 1 card hinders us a lot. I'll generally keep two land hands, I generally have at least 1-2 creatures, a mox, and then answers. I honestly only get Sensei's Divining Top maybe half my games, I have yet to see an Elsepth, and I do not draw Maelstrom Pulse as often as I'd like. (I generally play against my friends Zoo or Legacy Jund).

As to discard, I may or may not get it in my opening hand half of the time, I really do feel like I'm behind in the game when drawing them late. I'm actually considering dropping some type of disruption for Sinkhole. But that's a bold move and something I'll have to think about for a bit.

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Originally Posted by ZeinVoncy

As to discard, I may or may not get it in my opening hand half of the time, I really do feel like I'm behind in the game when drawing them late. I'm actually considering dropping some type of disruption for Sinkhole. But that's a bold move and something I'll have to think about for a bit.

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I believe Anwar Ahmad's analysis of the card is spot on:

The biggest problem with Sinkhole is that the format as a whole has become much faster. Most decks will shrug off a turn 2 land destruction spell and continue with their gameplan. Aggressive decks like Zoo may welcome a full turn spent destroying a land while they continue to play threats. Merfolk can evade Sinkhole's effect by playing Aether Vial. Most modern combo decks needs very few lands to operate, and Sinkhole is very close to a dead draw against them. Sinkhole is stronger against control decks, but it is often not enough to prevent the landing of a Counterbalance or a Standstill. It has been a staple of many successful Legacy Suicide decks, but it is not as potent a weapon as it once was.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...s_Dilemma.html

You need a very fast deck (Eva Green or Red Death) to really make it count. It's not so good against Survival either. IMVHO the usefulness of black disruption goes as follows:

Thoughtseize > Hymn to Tourach = Vindicate > Duress = Sinkhole = Inquisition of Kozilek

i think the thoughtseize is on par with inquisition. I think it's more about personal taste. Yes seize is better against control gets jace, elspeth, fow etc. But 2 life is a lot more than you would think. The problem with discard is it's really only useful in the first few turns against most decks. So for that reason you run a good amount to make sure you see it. But they turn into dead draws. It's a catch 22.


Also i've been having trouble testing(not having a whole lot of time) Has anyone tested jitte? if they have do they like it more than elspeth? or maybe in conjunction with elsepth. I'm running 16 creatures( 2 of which are witnesses)

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Originally Posted by makochman

I believe Anwar Ahmad's analysis of the card is spot on:

The biggest problem with Sinkhole is that the format as a whole has become much faster. Most decks will shrug off a turn 2 land destruction spell and continue with their gameplan. Aggressive decks like Zoo may welcome a full turn spent destroying a land while they continue to play threats. Merfolk can evade Sinkhole's effect by playing Aether Vial. Most modern combo decks needs very few lands to operate, and Sinkhole is very close to a dead draw against them. Sinkhole is stronger against control decks, but it is often not enough to prevent the landing of a Counterbalance or a Standstill. It has been a staple of many successful Legacy Suicide decks, but it is not as potent a weapon as it once was.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...s_Dilemma.html

You need a very fast deck (Eva Green or Red Death) to really make it count. It's not so good against Survival either. IMVHO the usefulness of black disruption goes as follows:

Thoughtseize > Hymn to Tourach = Vindicate > Duress = Sinkhole = Inquisition of Kozilek

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Sinkhole is also weak in a format with a lot of Daze. If you target an island (basic or nonbasic) they can counter the sinkhole even if you have the mana to pay, because they just return said island to their hand. Of course, you can try to target their non-island lands, but this is limiting your options and you may not always have that choice.

@ Sinkhole

Yeah, I have that notion in mind as well, but I find myself targeting lands more then creatures w/ Vindicate and such. I play a decent Zoo setup and after 2-3 turns of LD, even they start feeling the pressure b/c I have so many answers to their critters otherwise. It'd take some playtesting, but the idea isn't all that bad. Aether Vial we also respond to like normal, blow the damn thing up.

@ Umezawa's Jitte

I used that for awhile as well. Along with Sword of Fire and Ice and Sword of Light and Shadow, the selection is great ONCE it hits the field. Jitte is nice once you get going, but I found that once your threats get going, the Jitte is not needed. Yes its nice and own the field, but if you have no creature, it's just taking up room. I've dropped 2x of them and haven't looked back.

@ Elspeth, Knight-Errant

Still trying her out, I love the idea but while only running one copy, I have yet to play/draw her. Keeping her in b/c I feel she can change the game.

Thanks. I was thinking the same thing about jitte. I wanted just to have my thoughts confirmed. Elspeth seems good especially with witness

Elspeth is seriously underplayed in this deck.
T1: Thoughtseize or Top
T2: Bob, Goyf or Qasali
T3: Vindicate, or Hymn+Swords, or Knight
T4: Eslpeth, swing for 5-10 flying damage.
Game is pretty much over.

Sinkhole is nice in a deck that has Dark Ritual, which is not BWG Rock.

I think i would rather t2 hymn. since it's random it doesn't matter what they have in their hand. You can always hit a swords that would be targeted at your Bob, goyf or qasali. but i guess it depends what theyre playing and the information from seize, adn you hand.

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Originally Posted by Charos

Elspeth is seriously underplayed in this deck.
T1: Thoughtseize or Top
T2: Bob, Goyf or Qasali
T3: Vindicate, or Hymn+Swords, or Knight
T4: Eslpeth, swing for 5-10 flying damage.
Game is pretty much over.

Sinkhole is nice in a deck that has Dark Ritual, which is not BWG Rock.

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Sinkhole is as much rock as a double white card like Elspeth. Elspeth is fine but I think you slant the deck more towards white then (which is fine).

I don't think we slant the deck in any direction. We've adapted to White quite naturally, just b/c we added a singular copy of a card that requires WW does not mean we are slanting. We use BB for Hynms, but that doesn't mean we are slanting towards Black. We use all the the colors equally I'd say. If anything, no Green of ours requires GG. (sudden urge to Biorhythm!) :laugh:

Forum has gone quiet lately, anyone have any playtesting results? Or are we waiting to hear the verdict on Survival of the Fittest?

I'm waiting to write a final exam right now, and I tihnk a bunch of people are as well. Right now, I'm waiting on the word if Survival is banned or not. If it is, I think we have to get faster or improve the tribal matchup. If VV gets banned (in my dreams), we pretty much stay the same. If Mystical gets unbanned, We move to more Diabolic Edicts, Leyline in the board, and some Extirpates in the main. Again, I believe we become the Reanimator trump.

-Matt

I'm pretty comfortable in the current meta. Every now and then I just tweak my SB a bit.

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Originally Posted by ZeinVoncy

Forum has gone quiet lately, anyone have any playtesting results? Or are we waiting to hear the verdict on Survival of the Fittest?

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I have been trying out the stock Brad Nelson list with -2 Gerrard's Verdict and +1 Deed (2 main) + 1 Elspeth against decks which will probably be played more again if Survival gets the axe (mostly Merfolk and Zoo). I haven't been able to get many games in but I've been pretty happy with the list so far (I've been beating Merfolk quite consistently), my first impression is that we do not have to make many changes to the lists. I have been very happy with Deed in the matches I played so far.
The sideboard can probably change quite a bit. I'm currently running a small E-tutor board, haven't been able to test it a lot but I can say that Dueling Grounds is still very much worth it.

That makes sense because this deck is not particularly amazing vs Vengevival decks, but it's decent against the rest of the field.

Um, what?

If you're looking at results, it's better than most decks against it. It's a harder matchup, but you've got many tools to help you out where most decks don't. You've got Extirpate, Swords/Path, Leyline of the Void,, Bojuka Bog, Vindicate, Early Disruption...basically the things you need to trump Vengevine.

-Matt

So I remember back in teh day running command with doran. I think a lot of your card choices are personal taste as opposed to being better or worse.

Deed
+ it can clear the board if you're behind
+ it's a permanent so you can blow it up whenever
+ Not that easy to remove
+ hits manlands
- Not a nice bob flip
- higher on the curve, curve is high if you don't run diamonds

Ee
+ can hit planeswalkers
+ Can be Cheaper to cast and blow up
+ Can be better than deed at times
+ nice bob flip
- can't hit manlands

Elspeth
+ very hard to remove
+ is pure CA
+ can give a creature giant growth and jump, and when you have big creatures... That is good.
+ Generates more threats
+ has to be dealt with if the opponent want's to win
+ultimate ability is good
-Horrible bob flip
- Sometimes double white is hard to get

Profane command
+ is the most flexible out of any of the above
+ generates CA
+combos amazingly with witness
+/- OK to flip with bob

I don't know what this accomplishes. But I think i might try to test command as it seems good on paper

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Originally Posted by Rainbow Maker

Profane command
+ is the most flexible out of any of the above
+ generates CA
+combos amazingly with witness
+/- OK to flip with bob

I don't know what this accomplishes. But I think i might try to test command as it seems good on paper

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Doesn't change the entire game unlike the other cards, which can change the tides considerably. I do not see this card as being "good enough" for Legacy Rock. Perhaps it has a spot in Doran Extended, but we have better cards. The best use of this card would be -X/-X, which the card your cutting for Command would probably be better.
Test it and let us know, but I'd say of a hit or dis, it's a dis.

If survival gets banned we get a few things:

1) Tribal Aggro decks will pickup.
2) New Horizons will return in force

I don't know about you but the first I'm more than happy to deal with. I mean seriously, has anyone looked into alternatives to these decks? Older Rock Decks used things like Wall of Blossoms to help beat the faster aggressive decks. I think Wall has returned to being a viable option as we can usually limit their creature counts to 1 or 2. The inclusion of Maze of Ith also helps with this as well. I've had fun ripping a lot of different Zoo varieants apart by just adding a couple Wall of Omens (doesn't die to perish) to the board. Adding a little life-gain mainboard wouldn't hurt.

The second can be a beating. because of the way we're designed, New Horizons can be a solution to our deck with them having a mediocre draw. It would force us to work on fixing the most fragile part of the deck, the manabase. Even if you look at the posts above the main argument against some cards is that they cost double of a color. Our deck doesn't like having lands destroyed.

Honestly, I hope they un-ban Mystical. We get 2 decks back into the format (Reanimator and AnT). One of which, we can deal with. The other is a bad matchup. The outcome though would be something that would force the other decks of the format to adjust into a meta that we've already set for, although, there will be some changes made.

I'm still in support of Leylines in the board regardless of which monster runs 1.5. We run discard and kill. Are you seriously that worried about hitting all of one card? Make them draw another one and get rid of the reason they want it gone.

New Horizons, you're right, isn't a great matchup. Killing lands is bad, but I think since we've moved the discard element up, we may have a leg up. Plus, even if they do land giant.threat, we have a ton of removal for it (again, not everything gets countered every time, boys and girls).

Right now, I'm just waiting to see where the metagame goes. The best thing for this deck would be no change to the B/R. I'd be good with that, or unbanning Mystical. Running a shit ton of discard + more gravehate gives us a better chance against old ANT and Reanimator.

-Matt

The problem is i really don't know what i want to do with my deck. I think that's why i keep on coming up with random ideas. It's rather annoying. I think i might try mox diamond again. Or atleast try ee or deed main. But then the problem with ee is without mox it's stuck atmost at 3