Printable View
Just wanted to mention that SoF&F is NOT nearly as good for DS as SoB&M is.
The discard is useless as they can discard the cards they can't play.
The untap is useless as we need to get Hellbent and need to play anything from hand BEFORE combatstep anyways.
...and pro U/G is better than pro B/G anyways...
Why donīt you guys play Lodestone Golem istead of Slogger? Iīm testing it for a 2 months now and must say that it is awesome!
so the deck wants to move into a direction where it is less explosive and its threats are less threatening and do less to help with controlling the board?Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
also, sword of fire and ice, though frequently regarded as the best of the swords, just isn't exactly what we are looking for in dragon stompy. I've had numerous games where the draw a card clause would cause me to not only loose helbent, but also the game. It draws you cards, which is awesome, but as you are really trying for hellbent, it doesn't do too much.
FaF I also agree doens't do as much as body and mind. Body and mind sets you up with a creature to leave behind and chump. Mill is "meh" but its better than untapping your lands in my opinion - which would really only be awesome with a hellbent RPD.
I don't feel 12 mountains is necessary, but if you like how its been playing out then I'd run with it. I usually don't have trouble dropping slogger - and I'm only running three song.
I want the deck to be more consistent and less reliant on having two red sources every game.
It's not less explosive. Covetous Dragon comes out a full turn before Arc Slogger except on the occasion where you have a Seethign Song. The double red mana requirement means that Arc Slogger can often come down later or not at all.
Covetous Dragon equipped with a Sword can be a two turn clock.
Arc Slogger lacks evasion, and might be a two turn clock if your opponent has no chump blockers and you have an extra Seething Song handy.
According to current circumstances, i must say that trading 4 Trinisphere main for 4 Lodestone Golems was an AWESOME decision.
I won every matchup that was not combo suddenly, and im not too afraid of combo either. That Golem being half 3sphere and excellent beater in one card is just so damn good, i would never return 3sphere again. Besides that, you still have Chalice.
Imagine you have Seething Song, Ancient Tomb, Lodestone Golem, Chrome Mox + Simian Spirit guide on your starthand. Even if you're on the draw, Seething song + Lodestone Golem is really good against daze and most likely gives you a timewalk.
If you draw it too late and have a hellbent army already, you can simply discard it to another Gathan Raiders/cast it without R if you dont have Mountain/Guide/Chrommox(yes, you can lay Chrommox topdecked without paying the goddamn 3!!) and if you
would lose the game because bounced/topdecked Slogger ruins hellbent, you still have another great dude swinging for the win. Awesome. And now with so many NO decks it gets even better, nobody cares about TriSphere anymore.
My decklist atm:
10 Mountains
4 CoT
4 Tombs
4 SSG
4 RPD
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus
3 Slogger
2 SoFF
1 SoBM
2 Jitte
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Blood Moon
4 Seething Song
4 Chalice
4 Chrom Mox
Sideboard
4 Phyrexian Revoker(yeah, its a sideboard card in my opinion)
3 Pyroblast(i love it.Having it first turn in hand means like: Seething song, lodestone golem -> FoW? I dont think so ^^ on the draw is also nice, countering a random cantrip which totally leaves them screwed with their bad hand)
3 Ratchet Bomb(handles Elspeth Tokens, goyf, bob, jace.. Theres always something to break)
2 Tormods Crypt(might change this, cause i never lose against dredge anyway.. might increase Pyroblast and Bomb to 4)
3 Pyroclasm(weenies getting smashed real bad.. GG against Merfolk, Goblins)
Im not sure about the Swords yet, still testing them out.
According to my meta SoFF is slighty better, since everyone plays goyf and Go for the Throat seems getting more popular atm.
SoBM doesn't do the deal here, since the mill trigger gets their goyfs creepy big, why im considering on cutting Slogger already.
But since we still lack on good burnspells fitting our curve(Flame Javelin and Demonfire just seem sooo bad..) i'll stick to 3 Sloggers until
anything good is printed. Anyone tried Char, or is the lifeloss that bad?
thanx god there is somebody who can appreciate lodestone golem. hip-hurrah!
i just found this funny.. Everyone discussing about trading slogger and seething song for something awful like Lord of Shatterskull Pass or the weaker Dragon, but noone came to mind about cutting that goddamn sphere.. lol
Right. Removing Trinisphere from deck is a bad idea. Now, removing it from deck in a meta clogged with combos from all favors, and add something slower and less effective, that seems pretty good! :tongue:
I wish I got mana flooded with DS, man. I always had too little mana, as opposed to too much. That is no longer the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
Well, I actualy play Lodestone G. not instead but next to 3spheres. Four pieces both. There is never enough hate. And LG is both, beater and hate, on one card. For me it is auto-include.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
I dont know about combo like TES, but against NO combo the Golem is the far better choice. Lets look at this: Show and tells converted mana cost is 2U, and NO is 2GG. How is Trinisphere any useful here?
And i think i listed enough reasons for doing the change. I was never a big fan of sphere anyway, everyone plays around it, and you seldom have enough fuel to seal the deal just because of T1 sphere
Debating on two different lists now:
// Creatures
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Covetous Dragon
// Spells
4 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
2 Sword of Body and Mind
2 Umezawa's Jitte
// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
6 Mountain
and
// Creatures
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Lodestone Golem
// Spells
3 Blood Moon
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
2 Sword of Body and Mind
2 Umezawa's Jitte
// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain
My worries for deck 2 are only 19 red cards to ditch to Chrome Mox vs 21.
Also really torn between SoFaI and SoBaM now that I know I can borrow the SoFaI from a buddy.
I think 4 Trinisphere is overkill, especially if you are playing Lodestone Golem as well. You really don't want multiples of Trinisphere.
I do think that since your list is playing 24 artifacts already (even if you cut a Trinisphere and a Blood Moon for a couple of Lodestone Golem), you could easily get away with cutting something to go up to Covetous Dragon. It really is a very strong beatstick and fast clock. Best of all, it only needs one R to cast, and no additional investment of mana in future turns to deal 6 evasive damage each turn.
// Creatures
4 Gathan Raiders
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Rakdos Pit Dragon
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Covetous Dragon
2 Lodestone Golem
// Spells
3 Seething Song
3 Blood Moon
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
2 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Umezawa's Jitte
// Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Great Furnace
6 Mountain
I donīt thik that 4 trinispheres are too much. In fact i think that 4 is the only reasonable number because the true power of trinisphere lies in its 1. turn drop. So to maximize the chance to do that, play 4.
Granted T1 3sphere is a beast in many situations, but you need to look at the card beyond the MU where it completely screws an opponent over upon resolution. I think that nearly everyone here can agree a T1 3sphere can be back-breaking for many opponents however Moon pretty much always takes priority for lock pieces. We also need to assume that an opponent can play around our lock pieces, has counter/removal, or otherwise the game will last beyond the initial 5-10 turns (DS is famous for bad topdecks :/). 3sphere is one of the best examples in Magic of diminishing returns. As the game plays on its a card you'll want to see less and less. Topdecking a 3sphere when they have 5 lands/mana sources means that you might slow them down to 1 spell a turn but it ultimately will not affect the game state drastically. Topdecking a Lodestone, however, still provides late-game utility and an extra creature to attack/block. In the worst-case scenario of a late-game topdecked Lodestone you delay death an extra turn. With 3sphere you'll just die.Quote:
Originally Posted by tesla
I've been using a 4-of for 3sphere for as long as I can remember but it doesn't pack as much punch as it once did. We've begun to see more and more threats with a casting cost of 3+ (Nighthawk, KotR, Jace 2.0, prevalence of S&T/NO/SA) who can easily play around a 3sphere. I've reduced it down to 3 MD and have been increasingly finding myself siding 1-3 out in many MU's in favor of more aggression or alternate lock pieces. Lodestone provides the same function as 3sphere only it doesn't experience diminishing returns to the extent a 3sphere does.
I won't advocate every DS player remove their 3sphere's suddenly, but it is an idea worth playtesting at the very least.
Forlorn Egoist
Just want to mention that 3Sphere is better in the affinity matchup than Lodestone Golem, if that is a big deal at all.
Also, I don't like Covetous Dragon because of the possible two-for-one, but I can see why others like it.
With 25 artifacts in the maindeck (more artifacts than land), I don't really see that being an issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zupponn
I agree here, as much as Trinisphere is sometimes less optimal against various matchups, it is still much more powerful than Lodestone Golem. Golem is still not asymmetrical despite the fact that you're playing quite a lot of artifacts. It makes your Seething Song and SSG all pretty bad in the deck all of a sudden when casting non-Artifact spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui
Got rocked today by Enchantress and Aggro Elves. Elves even broke through my Chalice at 1. Cov Dragon never saw play, so can't say either way. Only 1 combo deck and I never faced it. First time running it was fun, but not sure I'd go this route again.
so... let's discuss about Lodestone Golem...
Not as a replacement for Trini, but as an additional screw-piece...
The card is nearly 2 years old, and people in the thread are starting to play and test it NOW.
What was the reason that it wasn't played in the past / or ditched in the past?
Oh, and please no "it' dies to Bolts"-Arguments as every critter in this deck dies to Bolts except Slogger / Covetous / Leveled dudes