Re: [PRIMER] U/W/x Countertop Superfriends
Today I made top8 at a little local tournament with my take on Countertop Superfriends. Been set 'till the day before to play Thopters, then ended sleeving up Elspeths and Shackles instead of Foundries because I feared the post-sideboard fragility given by such a heavy-ench/art- based control, plus disliking Foundry stuck in hand without SotMeek/ETutor for being a dead card in opening hand. I aimed to consistency. It's a UW shell at core with some cute adds and without the fancy, out-metaed cards (Oblivion Ring). Red appears with a very little splash only to pack some REBs and a single Blood Moon (well, they used to be 2) to exploit the solid manabase in the face of Landeed and tempo decks.
4 Strand
4 Tarn
5 Island
1 Plains
4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the mind sculptor
1 Elspeth, knight errant
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
2 Daze
4 Swords to plowshares
1 Path to Exile
1 Enlightened tutor
cmc 1: 16
cmc 2: 9
cmc 3: 5
cmc 4: 4
cmc 5: 4
Sideboard:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
2 Meddling Mage
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Blood Moon
1 Humility
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Disenchant
1 Firespout
1 Wrath of God
---------------------------------
Daze appears to be quite unusual for this kind of deck, and I always have been a control conservatorist that refused to play a conditional counter that sets you behind on tempo. The reason behind this add is that I wanted a cc2 counter (for the CB curve) not as heavy as Counterspell, that could complement the lone 2 Snares as well as give additional punch in the fast matchups or when resolving crucial spells; the main win-conditions of this deck both cost 4, so they suck from Pierce and Daze pretty hard. Daze allows to bypass this. In general, it's very useful against tempo decks, too. I originally wanted to try Snapcaster Mage, but don't own them. (Stoneforge Mystic, on the other hand, to me has become completely obsolete, worth being cut out and left to Stoneblade or what remains of that archetype.)
Daze was fantastic almost every time I saw it though, especially in protecting turn 2 CB, stopping the first turn Dredge enabler, as well as countering opposing Jace. It being unexpected wins several games.
I'm thinking of keeping them in the maindeck.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Metagame, Dredge, Storm Combo, some CBTops and Zoos here and there.
round 1: Dragon Stompy 2-0
round 2: Countertop Thopter 2-0
round 3: Dredge 2-0
round 4: Dredge 1-2
round 5: Spiral Tide 2-0
round 6: ID
Top 8: Dredge 0-2
Not going to write a detailed report here (if you are interested I may, though), but my only losses were to Dredge in the swiss, basically hitting double Narcomoeba on turn 2 after a mull to 6 and me having Jace, Humility, Pyroblast, and EE, with Glacial Fortress and Volcanic on the board. I punt by playing EE at 1 to pop his Imp to not make him discard the returned Dredger, only to realize he has a Cabal and if I'm passing the turn, he's gonna sac the Imp on it. Missplay that probably wouldn't have changed things, though.
In the top8, I lose to Dredge again, this time to a pretty good pilot of the archetype (Kiska Ra on these pages). Pre-side it's just an uphill battle that consists in finding the lone Bridge or the Enlightened Tutor, protecting it from Therapies, reach 3 mana, cast it, hope not to topdeck your counters, protect it from Angel of Despair/Primus DReturned. Which is kinda hard because they can destroy your counter-tailored hand pretty fast with the Therapies, unless you hide a counter on top with Top or...leave a cmc4 on top with CB (lol).
Post-side, I just saw a Meddling Mage, which named Therapy and Elspeth came to help, but things were slowly dripping into shit anyways. He just outraced me with Ichorids and Zombies.
My thoughts are that a pure control like this needs a reliable way to lock that deck hard. Artifact-based answer such as Ensnaring Bridge are bad because Ancient Grudge is coming post-sideboard 90% of the times. Peacekeeper, although being good, is not in my opinion an adequate solution because 1) you'll have lost the first game almost ever, so you actually need a way to win, not to stall them out for X turns; you would just drag it to a 1-0 result. 2) you can win game 2 with it if they didn't board in responses, but Dredge uses to pack Darkblast in the side, so it's just a matter of dredging it in g3.
I agree that the angle of attack to pursue is making them unable to shut down their combat phase: many times I've found the Relic only when I had too much Zombies already staring me. Thus, I'm contemplating to add a single Propaganda to the sideboard. It bypasses Grudge and slows them down a lot without taking mana as Peacekeeper. You're free to save your mana to search the other stuff, dig for Relic, or set up a Jace for the victory. With Enlightened Tutor and Ensnaring Bridge, chances I'm finding one of those slightly increase. But bridge, as said, won't last a lot.
I think that a minimum of 4-5 "strong" slots should be devoted to the matchup. It's just that hard, and Meddling Mage alone just doesn't do the job. I boarded something like
-4 CB, -2 Snare, -1 Cspell, -1 Jace, -1 Shackles
+2 Pierce/Pyroblast, +2 Meddling, +2 Relic, +1 Tormod's, +1 Humility, +1 EE
But most of this stuff is just soft hate. Humility is pretty shit once they have a bunch of Zombies on the board and just slow; Pierce is conditional, Pyroblast just hits Study and the 1-2 BThroughs if they left them in.
I thought about playing a single Ravenous Trap, but I want cards that can be useful across other matchups. Propaganda can behave good against Belcher and Merfolk, too.
Any thoughts on the Ichorid matchup?
[Deck is pretty cool, had a lot of fun in feeling the control role. Liking its consistency and solidity, so I'm sticking to it and try to refine the list and the sideboard].
Re: [PRIMER] U/W/x Countertop Superfriends
Daze can be quite amazing when people just think they're not there. It's also fun when people play around it when you don't have it. :laugh:
How is the Justice League / CounterBlade version going for you guys?
I still rely mostly on Jace+Elspeth for the win. Classic Superfriends style.
Re: [PRIMER] U/W/x Countertop Superfriends
Format's just too combo-centric to play cc4 bombs as the only win-condition. And Stoneforge Mystic sucks in a Countertop shell, you're just giving up too much speed MM used to provide to protect her.
I'd suggest retooling the deck to accomodate some number of Vendilion Cliques and Snapcaster Mages (best replacement to cover the 2 drop. We all know that's CBT weakness, always has been), with Trinket Mage being either as a 1-of maindeck or as a sideboard bullet to grab some relevant stuff. Relic of Progenitus, for example, is a complete beast in this metagame and I'm currently running 2 maindeck. Its applications are really wide, considering Reanimator, TA and Canadian Thresh all stand as tier decks. Aside from the obvious "shrinking Goyf, Mongoose and prevent Stalker" stuff, Iit is good to prevent tempo decks to exploit Snapcaster Mage and screw our calculations on what to leave on top with Counterbalance. That card's too overplayed right now to ignore it.
Plus, it helps you having a shot against decks otherwise unbeatable from game one, like Dredge. A turn one or two Relic keeping one mana open always does help you in slowing them down so that you can reach four of five mana and begin dropping planeswalker and/or beating with Vendilion. Plus, not having them reaching 8 cards and DDD also enables Countertop as a working engine against them, to stop Imp and Therapies.
Re: [PRIMER] U/W/x Countertop Superfriends
I top4'd a small tournament (40 ppl) in Padua a couple of days ago. I attended the tournament as a testing ground for my take on this archetype. I think it's very viable now. It sucks I can't call it landstill as I wish, but meh. What's in a name?
On the paper, this deck should:
-beat stoneblade
-beat reanimator
-beat ant and tide
-figth well against RUG/BUG
-fight well against punishing zoo
-play tight against maverick: preside it's 1x1, post side you bring in 5 wraths (+ you have 4 snappies
-lose horribly to dredge
Still didn't test against Sneak Show, Hive Mind, Merfolks. (Given that merfolk seems a bad choice, right now, between punishing fires and mavericks, i think UW is viable until people will stop playing stoneblade, which I hope they don't).
Here's the list:
// Creature
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
// Instant
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
2 Path to Exile
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
// Enchantment
3 Counterbalance
// Artifact
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Sensei's Divining Top
// Land
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
// Planeswalker
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
// Sideboard
2 Disenchant
1 Path to Exile
3 Spell Pierce
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Firespout
3 Wrath of God
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Nothing fancy, a good and solid control deck. Some choices may seems weird. I did want a maindeck crucible, though it didn't serve me that much. It was just a good tutorable 3 drop to fill the curve. Enlightenend tutor, though is a card I personally just hate, worked well to fetch top, cb or crucible, and were good in combination with snappy to just shuffle the deck when i had no fetches at the ready. Sb is really plain. 7th sword should maybe become a 4th surgical though you rarely want to have more than 3. I'd miss a Blood Moon, to be honest.
However, here's a little repot.
R1: Reanimator
G1: We both mull to 6 and stare at each other for a couple of turns. On his side of the field a polluted delta for island, ponder. A b/g fetch. I'm still not sure if it's reanimator or BUG, but I lean towards reanimator. Entomb eot confirms that. Reanimate for leviathan, I respond with snappy with 0 mana avaliable. He looked a little perplex, and let the mage come in. I let reanimate resolve (no counters at all), and he goes to nine. On my turn I drop mishra's factory, and can't attack because of the leviathan. He draws and i clique, he forces and goes to 8, careful study bins archon (what a luck! i still have no forces). He attacks and I go to 12 (I fetched), I untap and draw snapcaster mage. I attack and he goes to 4. He untaps and plays animate dead, cast it targeting blazing archon. I cast snapcaster with 1 cart left in hand, flashback brainstorm, see wasteland force counterspell, put back my card and wasteland, then force his animate dead. He's dead with 6 dmgs on my board and him at 4, having only one blocker.
side in: 3 pierce 3 surgical 2 ire
out: 1 elspeth 1 tutor 1 crucible 2 spiga 2 jace
G2: He mulls to 5. Lando go. Land go. Go. Land top. Land thoughtseize, pierce. Land counterbalance, force force. Jace fateseals his lands away.
2-0
1-0
R2: Spring Tide
G1: He mulls to 6. Land candelabra. Land top. Land scroll rack. Land counterbalance. Force, force. GG.
side in: 3 pierce 2 disenchant 3 surgical
out: 1 cruci 6 spighe 1 jace
G2: I keep a 2 lander hand and never see the third. I have 3 pierce 2 snappyes and 1 countespell, it isn't enough.
G3: close match. I don't see cb, but i pierce all of his cantrips. Jace fateseals his lands away. I have 5 mana, a vendilion and a karakas untapped. He tries to combo off, and i cast snappy to surgical extraction high tide. he can't close the combo but brain freezes me for 27. He meditates, I beat with vendilion and snappy while jace goes to 11. I put him on 1 and unsummon snapcaster mage, because I have counterspell in the bin and I know his hand via jace. GG.
2-1
2-0
R3: Kuldotha MUD
G1: Ancient Tomb, Lightning Greaves. Wasteland on tomb. He doesn't see a land in like ten turns (he plays only 17, though). I'm too well positioned when he sees the land.
side in: 3 pierce 2 ire 1 firespout 2 disenchant
out: 3 counterbalance 2 vendilion 1 tutore 1 elspeth
G2: I decide to bring in wrath because he has plenty of creatures, and wrath >> trinisphere. Better than surgical extraction. He mulls to 6, crystal vein. I wasteland. He dropa another, and I think denial is not the best strategy in this game. I pass with snare open, but he drop trinisphere. Shit. I drop a land and he drops lodestone golem. I drop another land. He castss greaves again, but my hand is full of swords, i snare. He beats me down to 15. I drop another land and he casts a second golem, but i sword the first one. I drop my 5th land and sword is golem when kuldotha forgemaster comes in. I put into play my 6th land (wasteland) and feel confident i can force the next artifact he plays and take 3 from kuldotha and play elspeth the turn after. I plays mishra's factory. Oh, fck. He activates, but I sword the forgemaster with the ability on the stack. He plays metalworker, snappi + sword. Another dude: snappi + path. He taps out 12 mana and plays BLIGHSTEEL COLOSSUS!!! I play snappy and path! :tongue:
2-0
3-0
R4: manaless dredge
G1 & G2: my teammate. shit. I can't win.
0-2
3-1
R5:ubr studd!
G1: 4 stifle 4 confidant 4 bolts 4 daze 4 force 4 mancer 3 surgical extraction... and son on. Oh shit! Waste on tundra + surgical on tundra, then some daze.
side in: 3 surgical extraction 2 spell pierce
out; 2 counterspell, 1 elspeth, 1 tutor 1 jace
G2: he keeps his 7 and goes land delver, but I read the screw and waste his volcanic island + surgical extraction it. I path his delver when he beats me down to 12, and win via cbtop.
G3: he opens with land pithing needle, and I have double top in hand. I obviously force. I play an island and pass, fainting a spell snare. He plays is land and grim lavamancer. I play top to bait his force, which comes (he topdecked it). I pass, then play eot brainstorm to find land. I see a fetch, 3rd top and cb. I shuffle away the 3rd top and assemble cb, while he beats me down with mancer. I try tap mishra whenever i can, to let him attack me with mancer, instead of simply shooting me. I have like 15 out in the deck: 5 swords (1 went away for his confidant), 4 snappies, 2 jaces and some fetches.. I have double top in play and spin whenever I can. I finally find a fetch, fetch, spin top, find path, path mancer, go to 4 and win the game via stack control.
2-1
4-1
R6: Maverick
ID
4-1-1
TOP8: Punishing Zoo
G1: I cast like 6 swords in 6 turns, a couple of snappies beat him in the while. I assemble cbtop and counter elspeth with jace.
side: ?!?
G2: I don't se my 3rd land. He goes land hierarch, land kavu predator, land tarmo, land kavu. Wow!
G3: I read his screw and waste his taiga after he cast wild nacatl. he topdecks plateau. I let nacatl beat me down for awhile, I don't know what for. When I'm at 14, I finally wake up and sword it, while he's a little stucked on lands. His 2-drops get snared. His reliquaries get swordes or path via spells or flasbacks, counterspell gets rid of elspeth and occasionally of bloodbraid elf, while my on elspeth hits the table soon and starts to fill the board with soldier tokens. He has 0 cards in hand and I go for invincibility mode with force backup to ensure no creature gets punished by fire.
TOP4: manaless Dredge again
Again my teammate, again dredge, again 0-2. I'm glad we both made it to the top, and that top prizes remained in the team.
Re: [PRIMER] U/W/x Countertop Superfriends
@gustha I missed out on your post. Anyways, interesting list and results.
Pretty amazing though, no shackles? Snapcaster has got to be your best friend then. How about putting shackles over the crucible? :)
Re: [PRIMER] U/W/x Countertop Superfriends
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sarapfish
@gustha I missed out on your post. Anyways, interesting list and results.
Pretty amazing though, no shackles? Snapcaster has got to be your best friend then. How about putting shackles over the crucible? :)
Definitely.
Re: [PRIMER] U/W/x Countertop Superfriends
This is my most recent list - it has been testing well. Stoneblade with Counterbalance doesn't quite work out for various reasons so I went back to the old list.
I decided to splash red for REB and Blood Moon in the board. I pulled some ideas from the UWx Stoneblade thread (which was the deck I was playing before).
The mainboard is pretty much the same as Hanni's list in the OP. I replaced the Predicts with Snapcasters - they are awesome and are a solid replacement for Predict in my opinion. It maintains the Counterbalance curve too and allows for extra removal.
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
4 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Oblivion Ring
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Elspeth
2 Jace 2.0
4 Force of Will
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
5 Island
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Volcanic Island
1 Kor Haven
Sideboard:
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast/Pyroblast
2 Blood Moon
2 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
2 Flusterstorm
I'm pretty happy with the sideboard. I can't think of any matchups which I cannot handle or struggle significantly against. Dredge is tough but 4 GY hate in the side helps a lot.
I'm not too sure about the 3rd Shackles and I am curious about Spell Snare in this deck. But I'm unsure as to finding space for it. But this is just fine-tuning as this deck has been doing very well for me.
Any feedback re the above list?
Re: [PRIMER] U/W/x Countertop Superfriends
@yutang: Why do you have a Karakas?
Re: [PRIMER] U/W/x Countertop Superfriends
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sarapfish
@yutang: Why do you have a Karakas?
Same reason why Stoneblade runs Karakas. Marginal utility against Reanimator/Cliques and partly because....I just have one. Would it make that much difference against Wasteland decks to replace it with a basic Plains?
Re: [PRIMER] U/W/x Countertop Superfriends
@Yutang: Mad Props on your list. I've been wanting to play a deck similar to this. I've been wanting to brew Tiagos and Counterbalance on the same deck, I wanted to include SFM's but design-wise I don't think it could happen.
Just a few questions, Off the bat, I thought of the Merfolk match-up, how has your testing against Folks? Does 6 or virtually 9 stps, 2 O rings, and 3 shackles cut it Game 1? or do you just come back stronger Game 2? Ever tried Firespouts instead of WoG or Shackles? I would think you chose WoG over Spouts for Thruns but Does the 1 turn delay compared to Firespouts matter in your testing against the faster decks like Merfolk, RUG, Mavericks, and Zoo?
I'll be sleeving up a similar list once I get Tiagos so I could get testing in for this. Just wanted your initial thoughts on your list regarding my points above. Thanks!
Re: [PRIMER] U/W/x Countertop Superfriends
Quote:
Originally Posted by
yutang
Same reason why Stoneblade runs Karakas. Marginal utility against Reanimator/Cliques and partly because....I just have one. Would it make that much difference against Wasteland decks to replace it with a basic Plains?
Oops my bad...not a user of it so I thought its mainly for returning own cliques. Pretty noob-ish I know. :laugh:
Hope you do well with your list! If you want to test some snares, maybe you can try:
-1 counterspell
-1 kor haven
+2 spell snare
Re: [PRIMER] U/W/x Countertop Superfriends
@bum_man
Merfolk matchup has been pretty decent. It's not the best in the world due to the 4x Counterbalances being somewhat 'dead' in this MU but there is a lot of removal in the maindeck to alleviate things. Furthermore, the inclusion of Snapcaster lets me re-use spot removal (which has saved me countless times). As you noted, the removal DOES go a long way towards a good fighting chance in Game 1 especially with the inclusion of Snapcaster. However, the crazy nut Merfolk draws (where they have 1 of everything) WILL beat you, especially when you are holding dead cards such as Counterbalance (and Counterspell to a lesser extent) against them.
Postboard, the Counterbalances go out for more Path to Exiles and Red Elemental Blasts (which are insane against fish).
-4 Counterbalance
-1 Counterspell
+3 REB/Pyroblast
+2 Path to Exile
As you noted (and as Hanni also noted in the OP), Wraths are too slow against Fish. I tend to side in Wrath against Goblins, Thrun decks, Natural Order decks, Zoo and Maverick.
I do not feel that Firespout is necessary. It helps in the Zoo, Merfolk and Goblin MUs. We already beat Zoo with WoG and our maindeck. The Merfolk MU can be sufficiently handled by the REBs. The Goblin MU is a problem but siding out 4 Counterbalances for 2x Path and 2x Wrath is sufficient. I would prefer Wrath over Firespout because it lets us beat a resolved Progenitus, bunch of Goyfs/Knights in the Natural Order and Maverick MUs. In short, Firespout is a narrow answer to fewer decks whereas I prefer Wrath as a good general flexible answer to many decks in the format.
@sarapfish
Another trick could be using it against opposing Kiras to negate their first layer of protection before using Path/Swords on it. It also stops opposing Karakas (Death and Taxes). I believe the marginal utility offered by Karakas outweighs the dangers of it being Wastelanded and manascrewed.
Thank you for your suggestion re Spell Snares but I am very hesitant about getting rid of land in a deck which needs its land drops. I'm thinking about testing the following:
-1 Path to Exile
-1 Vedalken Shackles
-1 Counterspell
+3 Spell Snare
That would turn my curve into:
1cc: 15
2cc: 10
3cc: 4
4cc: 4
5cc: 4
The problem is the 2cc range is too low at the expense of the 1cc spells. I'll need to think more about this.
Re: [PRIMER] U/W/x Countertop Superfriends
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sarapfish
@gustha I missed out on your post. Anyways, interesting list and results.
Pretty amazing though, no shackles? Snapcaster has got to be your best friend then. How about putting shackles over the crucible? :)
What for? You already have 6+4 swords effects... shackles is really not needed and expensive... I'd try it over crucible, however. Though they serve a different function, i'd rarely had the chance to recur wasteland (but reutilizing fetch is always good, and shackles doesn't help here).
Re: [PRIMER] U/W/x Countertop Superfriends
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gustha
What for? You already have 6+4 swords effects... shackles is really not needed and expensive... I'd try it over crucible, however. Though they serve a different function, i'd rarely had the chance to recur wasteland (but reutilizing fetch is always good, and shackles doesn't help here).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gustha
I did want a maindeck crucible, though it didn't serve me that much. It was just a good tutorable 3 drop to fill the curve.
It was simply a suggestion after reading the above statement. In any case, your list did well and that is already proof of what works for you, plus it shows the deck being quite viable, which is good!
Re: [PRIMER] U/W/x Countertop Superfriends
Just a question - how would this deck manage the Enchantress matchup?
Re: [PRIMER] U/W/x Countertop Superfriends
The best way to beat Merfolk is to sideboard in Peacekeeper.
Re: [PRIMER] U/W/x Countertop Superfriends
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
The best way to beat Merfolk is to sideboard in Peacekeeper.
However, Peacekeeper is a somewhat narrow sideboard card - it is only useful against creature decks which run little removal. However, Merfolk runs Dismember nowadays, Dredge has Darkblast, etc etc. It's not the hard lock it used to be. Of course there is the argument that counters should be saved for protecting Peacekeeper. But that is negated by the need to counter to save yourself from losing before Peacekeeper online. Furthermore, counters are also required to ensure you resolve Jace in order to win. Lastly, I really dislike maintaining the 1W for Peacekeeper whilst your opponent is playing draw go. I believe the way to beat Merfolk is a ton of spot removal to stabilise the board (Swords, Paths, Shackles and Red Elemental Blasts). This is helped by the inclusion of Snapcaster which really helps us change this MU around.
Re my last post - a great sideboard card against Enchantress is Meddling Mage. That may take the spot of the 2x Flusterstorms, though I prefer at least a 3x of Meddling Mage in the SB.
Re: [PRIMER] U/W/x Countertop Superfriends
Peackeeper is still the best way to beat Merfolk. It doesn't have to be a hard lock, it just has to buy you enough time to survive the mid game. Besides, most lists with Dismember are running, what, 2-3?
Peacekeeper is the best tool against Merfolk.
Between early StP's and countermagic, you should have enough time to get a Peacekeeper and/or Shackles online. Once that happens, you can usually seal the game up. I've done a lot of playtesting against Merfolk, and Peacekeeper is the real deal vs them.
Of course, if you're maindecking SFM/Skull, you don't really need Peacekeeper. I'm not quite sure this deck needs the SFM/Skull plan anymore, though.
However, the Peacekeeper plan doesn't take into account Snapcaster, since I never got around to playtesting any lists with him. I suppose in a Snapcaster list, more 1cc spot removal like REB would probably work well enough, though in those cases I'd be bringing in another Shackles from the sideboard (for a total of 4 postboard). The temporary spot removal plan is difficult to use against Merfolk because they can easily out-threat your removal, and even a lonely Silvergill or Mutavault can still kill you in the midgame. Multiple Silvergills cast over the course of the game can be a problem, too (whether you kill them or not).
Anyway, I've been out of the game for a while so my experience may be a little outdated.
Actually, what brought me back to this thread was a different topic altogether...
Sorin, Lord of Innistrad.
Prior to going straight U/W for the better manabase, I had always played this deck as U/W/b. However, Vindicate alone was really not enough reason to stay in black, as Oblivion Ring was a fine replacement and the better manabase was much more important. Now, though...
I think Sorin is incredible. His +1 does what Elspeth's does, except the little guys have lifelink. In this deck, lifegain is really good. One of the main reasons why I started running SFM/Skull.
His second ability is not as good Elspeth's second ability, but his ultimate is way better. His second ability is still solid though; while not nearly as good as clocking an opponent (+3/+3 flying is still great in this format), his ability to double the lifelink potential on the 1/1 tokens is nice. The way I see it, Sorin is much more defensive than Elspeth, whereas Elspeth is more aggressive. In a SFM/Skull build, Elspeth is still the clearly better choice. In a build without SFM/Skull though... I think Sorin comes out on top.
Against Merfolk, without SFM/Skull, Sorin is better against both Goblins and Merfolk, which are the only two matchups which have ever really concerned me with this deck.
Going U/W/b opens back up the ability to run Vindicate. Vindicate syngergizes pretty well with Snapcaster Mage (this deck can easily get to 5 mana by the mid-late). Without the WW on Elspeth (and since I don't run WoG or Humility), this means I can splash the black in without sacrificing a whole lot from my manabase.
Here's a rough draft:
U/W/b Superfriends
// Lands (21)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
5 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Swamp
// Creatures (2)
2 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
// Spells (35)
2 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 [OD] Predict
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [AP] Vindicate
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
// Sideboard (11)
SB: 2 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
SB: 4 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [WL] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
There's 4 available sideboard spaces. Since I haven't played in a while, I'm not sure what would be required in this metagame. Peacekeeper, Engineered Plague, Wrath of God, Humility/Moat, Spell Pierce, and Spell Snare seem like solid choices. Actually, Duress/Thoughtseize sound really good too.
I haven't playtested with Snapcaster, so it's possible that the deck needs more 1cc instants/sorceries to make better use of him, I don't know. Also, is 4 SCM overkill? Maybe like a 2/2 split of SCM and Predict or something?
Anyway, it's a rough draft to toss out some food for thought.
EDIT:
Quote:
Just a question - how would this deck manage the Enchantress matchup?
An active CounterTop destroys Enchantress if you can assemble it in time. Force of Will and Counterspell help to buy the time you need to get it active. Once active, Jace TMS does a great job of sealing the game up.
Postboard, Meddling Mage is also really good. I bring in Aura of Silence too, plus if you're running Spell Pierce or discard or something, you can always bring that in too.
Re: [PRIMER] U/W/x Countertop Superfriends
I think Snapcaster Mage is usually utilized in 4's, but for this deck that already has access to reusable counters and removal via Counterbalance and Shackles respectively, 3 seems alright as well.
I don't think its an overkill to run 4, since the card is indeed good to see early on.
Re: [PRIMER] U/W/x Countertop Superfriends
I believe 3 is the right number with 22 lands. However, it can't hurt to test the 4th Snapcaster though I feel that 21 lands is a bit too risky.
I don't think Stoneforge is required in this deck at this stage.
Geist of St Traft
Also, I want to raise a potential card which this deck may have problems with: Geist of Saint Traft. We can't Swords, Path or Shackle it. We can't chump block with Elspeth because the Angel will end up killing her. The only outs are countering it (ReBs and Counterspell) or Wrath of God. What can we do against this card, which is starting to show up in UWx Blade lists as a card for the control mirror.
I prefer my lists to be able to handle every deck/card between its 75 cards and the presence of a card which I can't beat is annoying for me.
Re the black splash raised by Hanni:
I don't like it. You are adding black just for
1) Vindicate in the MD
2) Sorin, Lord of Innistrad in the MD
3) Sideboard cards such as Duress, Perish, Engineered Plague
I will address each of these points
1) Vindicate is a great card. But as it is unlikely that we will be nuking lands because we are control and not tempo. The exception would be a situation where there are enemy utility lands such as Riptide, Academy Ruins which are to be destroyed. In that case, we may be better served by Blood Moon in the side from the red splash. O-ring provides essentially the same effect. The only downside is Qasali Pridemage or Disenchant hitting the O-ring. In my opinion, this is not enough to make me shift towards black.
2) Sorin 2.0 - the new poster child of Innistrad. There is no doubt he will be a good planeswalker but the question is whether he fits in this deck. I believe Sorin 2.0 will see a home in a Deadguy Ale brew with tokens rather than take Elspeth's spot in Countertop Walker. Hanni, you are correct in analysing his abilities but I believe testing is required in order to see whether he belongs here.
3) The biggest point against black is the almost uselessness of the splash for sideboard purposes in the current metagame. There is insufficient Green (apart from GW Maverick - where Wrath of God would suffice) for Perish. Tribal has disappeared to the point where 4x Engineered Plague is not worth it. Extirpate has been largely replaced by Surgical Extraction. Duress/Thoughtseize is not worth it when you have Flusterstorm in Blue.
I believe the red splash is infinitely better. It provides Red Elemental Blasts against Blue and Blood Moon against Tempo, Rock and GW Maverick running the Punishing Fires combo. Red Elemental Blasts are better against Merfolk than Engineered Plague. Black does not offer anything against blue (Hymn is too intensive for a splash).
All up, I don't believe a black splash is the way to go in the current metagame whereas red works.