[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

I'm just saying I am trying to open your guys' minds up to the opportunity of at least trying to find a correct configuration to help the deck stave off 'auto-losses' - not a euphemism - which should never be acceptable in competitive Magic. I haven't found it yet, but I'm working trying to find it.

I'll accept the fact the deck cannot have a sideboard configuration setup to help against Leyline or similar strategies until I've thoroughly tested it, which I'm still in the process of doing. Until then, I'm not going to give up without trying.

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Okay, I think my previous post might have been a bit too hateful (probably your previous one as well), so I just want to calmly tackle the argumentation again.

It's probably to do with the sole fact that tones can't be transmitted perfectly in forums or whatever but in fact I think that we're in the same boat here.

First of all, I've been playing mana Dredge for years and even since I've heard of the manaless variant I've always been a strict advocate for the mana build. That being said, I'm not an extreme fanatic or something like that of Rausch's list (as it seems you supposed). Gigapede for example is a card that I find completely useless in manaless builds and his sb is far from optimal. Maybe I spoke a bit too positively about it, because I thought you had spoken too negatively about his deck.

What I have been doing however, despite knowing that mana Dredge is the way to go for me, is testing the manaless build a lot in order to find out where it fares better and worse than the traditional one. My main testing object was boarding plans against hate, for its inability to beat hate is actually the huge argument against manaless in my eyes.

The testing I referred to was against Team America, GBW Rock and UBG Dark Thresh, all of which had the 4 LotV in their sbs. The decks are definitely competitive and the players I tested with knew what they were doing. I don't claim that they're pros, but they know what they were doing.


So as I said we're actally on the same side. I only wanted to test the manaless build, especially the anti hate strategies, just like you. Only that I have finished it for now, coming to the conclusion that there is no viable strategy, while you're still at it. Also I'm not an advocate of Rausch's build, but at the same time I accredit his success. Just as much as I'm not an advocate of the manaless build in general, but I accredit its viability in the current metagame. And I only share expieriences, just like any other poster in this thread. Ajfirecracker just suggested a transformational board with the dark depths combo, I suggest not doing anything about it. Everyone does what he wants and just shares opinions. It's not like anyone came up with 7 Islands plus Vizzerdrix in the board. And that's fine in my eyes. I hope in yours too.

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Originally Posted by Gocho

The only way I can think to win vs Leyline is:
- concede G2 after the Leyline
- side in a transformational sb G3. But I can't think in a good one playing 0-3 lands maindeck.

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I am playing this deck in Vestal this weekend and am going to try that plan with the following SB;
4x Fetches
4x Dryad Arbor
4x Reverent Silence
3x Contagion

Hopefully, with this plan I can avoid the auto-losses in: Jailer, Peacekeeper, Leyline, Wheel of Sun and Moon and Planar Void.

-Chris-

Don't forget to tell us how you do with the deck in Vestal!
We really need more real life data.

Hi, I'm tryng the Edge of Autumn engine to have 12 cycle effect, the dryad arbor are good too for sideboard plans against leyline and grave sweepers. This is my list:

// Lands
4 [FUT] Dakmor Salvage
2 [FUT] Dryad Arbor

// Creatures
2 [PLC] Phantasmagorian
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
3 [RAV] Shambling Shell
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [ZEN] Bloodghast
1 [ZEN] Sphinx of Lost Truths

// Spells
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [FUT] Edge of Autumn

I didn't have a sideboard because I'm not sure about the numbers, I'm still testing for the best maindeck lineup. I think that dread returns should be 3 because 4 are useful most of the times with only 2 reanimation target. Probably i will make the cut for a phantasmagorian and the 4th shambling shell but I don't know what to take out.

To those who play FKZ, why not just play a Chancellor? Doesn't he do the same thing? Rather than give +1/+1 he just puts in Goblin tokens, which can be sacced to Therapy. He also doesn't suck if he is in your opener.

The sideboard looks like its the most important part of this deck. Some weird ideas to combat Crypt/Relic heavy meta would be to play the x4 Green Chancellor/ESG, x4 Dryad Arbor or ESG, x4 Pithing Needle, x3 Natures Claim.
With this build you can also play Root Maze, Oxidize, Simplify, Carpet of Flowers, Drop of Honey, Hidden Gibbons, Hidden Guerrillas (seems good actually vs grave hate actually...), Hidden Herd, Nimble Mongoose, and Xantid Swarm.
Yes half of these cards are unplayable but some (Root Maze) seem great.

A thing to note; Gitaxian Probe followed by a Cabal Therapy is crazy. Those might have to find a spot main deck.

My sb now is x4 White Chancellor, x3 Red Chancellor, x4 Tormod's Crypt, x4 Mental Misstep

Mental Misstep is easily the worst of the bunch, as it sucks vs discard and doesn't stop a Crypt. I think Leyline of Sanctity would be strictly better, as it would stop Crypt and discard but fold to a Relic.

To those who play FKZ, why not just play a Chancellor? Doesn't he do the same thing? Rather than give +1/+1 he just puts in Goblin tokens, which can be sacced to Therapy. He also doesn't suck if he is in your opener.

The sideboard looks like its the most important part of this deck. Some weird ideas to combat Crypt/Relic heavy meta would be to play the x4 Green Chancellor/ESG, x4 Dryad Arbor or ESG, x4 Pithing Needle, x3 Natures Claim.
With this build you can also play Root Maze, Oxidize, Simplify, Carpet of Flowers, Drop of Honey, Hidden Gibbons, Hidden Guerrillas (seems good actually vs grave hate actually...), Hidden Herd, Nimble Mongoose, and Xantid Swarm.
Yes half of these cards are unplayable but some (Root Maze) seem great.

A thing to note; Gitaxian Probe followed by a Cabal Therapy is crazy. Those might have to find a spot main deck.

My sb now is x4 White Chancellor, x3 Red Chancellor, x4 Tormod's Crypt, x4 Mental Misstep

Mental Misstep is easily the worst of the bunch, as it sucks vs discard and doesn't stop a Crypt. I think Leyline of Sanctity would be strictly better, as it would stop Crypt and discard but fold to a Relic.

As much as I like Chancellor of the Forge, it's just no where near as guaranteed a win when you Dread Return it compared to Flame Kin Zealot.

I really don't think SBing against Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus is a very good idea, you can play thru' both and opponent's have diversified their SBs to the point where they have 1 Relic, 1 Crypt, 1 Trap, 1 Phyrecian Extirpate, 1 Faerie Macabre, 1 Bojuka Bog etc. and even in Mana Dredge you feel dumb as hell SBing in 4 Ancient Grudge just to get Bogged etc. I cut Ancient Grudge from my Mana Dredge awhile ago and just relied on Pimp/Tribe vs. some of the hate and did fine.

Just stop trying so hard to beat hate with hate, Dredge is a glass cannon and that's just the way it is.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

As much as I like Chancellor of the Forge, it's just no where near as guaranteed a win when you Dread Return it compared to Flame Kin Zealot.

I really don't think SBing against Tormod's Crypt and Relic of Progenitus is a very good idea, you can play thru' both and opponent's have diversified their SBs to the point where they have 1 Relic, 1 Crypt, 1 Trap, 1 Phyrecian Extirpate, 1 Faerie Macabre, 1 Bojuka Bog etc. and even in Mana Dredge you feel dumb as hell SBing in 4 Ancient Grudge just to get Bogged etc. I cut Ancient Grudge from my Mana Dredge awhile ago and just relied on Pimp/Tribe vs. some of the hate and did fine.

Just stop trying so hard to beat hate with hate, Dredge is a glass cannon and that's just the way it is.

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It's not a glass cannon, though. The reason to not play anti-hate is that you can potentially just beat it without sideboarding. Dredge is too resilient to bring in anti-hate, not too weak.

Hey guys,
i played the original deck from Nicholas Rausch at a tourney in Iserlohn (Germany) and i played against Scavenging Ooze 2 times. What would you do against this card except of Contagion? I cant mulligan because im too slow for dredge then.
This card should be banned :)

Thanks K1w1

Yeah I was omega stoned and it was late last night. Didn't realize Chancellor didn't give haste. Still is worth testing in a Manaless Ichorid that doesn't run Baubles or Probe.

Even in a list with Bloodghast/Dakmor package one should play Probe though. Probe+Cabal=omg.

And you guys didnt understand the reasoning behind my post, which is to ask what would a sideboard for this deck look like?

I really think Chancellor of the Annex is a good place to start, as you reveal it t1 and it shuts down an opponent.

Some gy hate of our own would be nice, to side in vs other Dredge.

It's a glass cannon in the sense that it can't deal with a resolved permanent that gives the opponent strategic superiority, i.e. Leyline of the Void or Propaganda etc. If people want to hate this deck out of the metagame, it has no choice but to accept defeat.

The point is tho' no one will.

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Originally Posted by K1w1

Hey guys,
i played the original deck from Nicholas Rausch at a tourney in Iserlohn (Germany) and i played against Scavenging Ooze 2 times. What would you do against this card except of Contagion? I cant mulligan because im too slow for dredge then.
This card should be banned :)

Thanks K1w1

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I guess we add Scavenging Ooze to the list of cards that manaless just can't beat. Contagions is the only way I guess. At least Ooze is nowhere near as bad as Leyline. Though I'd really wish back my Firestorms if I'm paired against Ooze at a tourney.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

If people want to hate this deck out of the metagame, it has no choice but to accept defeat.

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This is true for most decks. If enough people are gunning for a deck, they'll take you down, regardless of what you're playing. Decks that are heavily committed to one angle of attack are easier to hate out.

Going without land has the drawback of making you more vulnerable to certain types of hate. If those types of hate are in great enough number that you can't dodge them, then don't run this deck.

Manaless Dredge is at its best when the field is made up of "fair" decks -- preferably slow blue control decks or midrange aggro -- that are underboarding graveyard hate.

// Creatures
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [DDC] Stinkweed Imp
2 [ZEN] Sphinx of Lost Truths
4 [RAV] Shambling Shell
4 [PLC] Phantasmagorian
4 [5E] Nether Shadow
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
3 [ON] Gigapede
// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [IA] Urza's Bauble
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [TSP] Dread Return
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Dread Return
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 [NPH] Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 3 [FUT] Dakmor Salvage
SB: 4 [ZEN] Bloodghast
SB: 4 [NPH] Chancellor of the Annex


So after some play testing I have made some changes to the deck. I don't think FKZ is needed in the maindeck, I never really saw myself wanting it too much. Figured I would also cut the Dakmor/Bloodghast package as it took up 7 slots in the main deck and move it over to the sideboard. It's only really good at fighting multiple Tormod's or beating blue decks that Misstep/Daze my cantrips, and since a large part of the meta is carrying these annoying cards it is worth the 7 sb slots in my opinion.

Chancellor of the Annex is pretty amazing. It stops t1 discard, and is a great side vs combo. Pretty much stops every form of hate but Leyline.

The x4 Dread package is for combo decks. You side DR/Elesh vs Dredge, DR/Iona vs storm, DR/Angel vs any weird card that you saw.

Those 4 card can very well become Chancellor of the Forge or Leyline of the Vault. Who knows.

It's a matter of degree, you can "hate" Merfolk by playing 4 Red Elemental Blast and Pyroblast in your SB, but Merfolk still has a chance of countering spells, removing permanents etc. to win the game - it's win percentage simply decreases. Dredge isn't the same, vs. the appropriate, resolved hate card the deck simply scoops; there's no equivalent of what Leyline of the Void or Relic of Progenitus does to Dredge compared to what any other hate cards does to its respective deck save, maybe, counterspells vs Belcher.

The cost efficieny and effect of hate vs Dredge, compounded by the inability for Dredge to effectively deal with that hate is incomparable. That's why Dredge will always have massively high or incredibly low win percentages in like the 90%/10% win/loss category vs. decks without/with hate and Merfolk will have like a 50%/35% in comparison (the numbers are arbitrary).

That's why I have said, and continue to say the only way to increase Dredge's over all win percentage is to increase it's speed and beat combo more consistently. It's the only match up in the arche type pie it can actually fight against (and maybe Reanimator esq decks or Lands) with MD adjustments (LED, Baubles etc.) and SB bullets.

We pretty much all know this already. Yes, a resolved LotV spells death. That is why I even suggest playing it as a 4-of in our sidboard.

The decklist I posted is super freaky fast as well. 12 cantrips are more than enough. I really don't see a reason to play x16 cantrips when I can run the extra Phantasma and Gigapedes to play around hate. Running x3 Dread Returns has had no impact on me whatsoever since I now cantrip and rip my whole deck into my gy, and then use the 1 Dread I found to get a Sphinx and finish the game.

You could play a 4th Dread Return in the gy, Im testing that. Blightsteel Coloussus can also be good here, it's a one-of that can flat out win you games.

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Originally Posted by Kanti

We pretty much all know this already. Yes, a resolved LotV spells death. That is why I even suggest playing it as a 4-of in our sidboard.

The decklist I posted is super freaky fast as well. 12 cantrips are more than enough. I really don't see a reason to play x16 cantrips when I can run the extra Phantasma and Gigapedes to play around hate. Running x3 Dread Returns has had no impact on me whatsoever since I now cantrip and rip my whole deck into my gy, and then use the 1 Dread I found to get a Sphinx and finish the game.

You could play a 4th Dread Return in the gy, Im testing that. Blightsteel Coloussus can also be good here, it's a one-of that can flat out win you games.

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You want 16 cantrips before you want Gigapedge, I played with Gigapede long enough to know that it's the single, most mediocre card in the deck and I wouldn't sacrifice anything in the MD for it.

I agree you can slim the Dread Return package to 3 Dread Return, 2 Sphinx of Lost Truths and 1 Flame Kin Zealot, also 3 Shambling Shells and Nether Shadows are enough as well.

I'm not really sure about that. Here is where I get my numbers from.

Most Mana'd Dredge lists run 11-12 Dredgers, and mull just about every hand that doesn't include one. That tells me that in order to have a cantrip in my opening hand, which speeds up the deck by up to 1 turn, I have to run 11-12 of them.

I rarely want more than 1 cantrip in my opener, and especially not more than Gigapede. Draw, discard Gigapede, upkeep? Are they gonna Crypt the Gigapede? Gigapede really allows you to play around targetted gy hate by always having a discard outlet in your hand to dump into the gy.

Why even run Zealot? What does he accomplish? Has he won games for you that woudn't have been won casting multiple Therapies and a 15/15 Grave Troll with an army of friends? Most Dredge decks eschew him, and I think there is a very good reason for that.

Yes, FKZ won games for me. Multiple times! Without him, I'm lost, because my opponents are killing me 1 turn later, and i can kill him before.
Actually im playing this deck without Gigapede, because this card is bad, imo.
Insteed of 3 Gigapede i'm playing 3 Sphinx of lost truths. + FKZ + Iona. It works fine.
1 thing i could change is playing more cantrips. actually 4.

And golgari grave-troll - i never DR him.

Just my 2 cents. I'm at tourney tomorrow. I play this list with the changes i told.

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Originally Posted by Kanti

I'm not really sure about that. Here is where I get my numbers from.

Most Mana'd Dredge lists run 11-12 Dredgers, and mull just about every hand that doesn't include one. That tells me that in order to have a cantrip in my opening hand, which speeds up the deck by up to 1 turn, I have to run 11-12 of them.

I rarely want more than 1 cantrip in my opener, and especially not more than Gigapede. Draw, discard Gigapede, upkeep? Are they gonna Crypt the Gigapede? Gigapede really allows you to play around targetted gy hate by always having a discard outlet in your hand to dump into the gy.

Why even run Zealot? What does he accomplish? Has he won games for you that woudn't have been won casting multiple Therapies and a 15/15 Grave Troll with an army of friends? Most Dredge decks eschew him, and I think there is a very good reason for that.

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They can Tormod's Crypt you in your upkeep after you discard to Gigapede but before you dredge. There's not any reason for them to do that, though, as they can wait on Tormod's Crypt until you get creature-making triggers and then wipe your graveyard.

They can lock you down with Relic of Progenitus' tap ability regardless of Gigapede, so it only really helps against sorcery-speed hate, which we naturally just slaughter anyway. The real reason to run Gigapede is that you want more than 4 Phantasmagorian in your deck (say, because you're on the 4 Nether Shadow 4 Bloodghast plan).

As to FKZ, I definitely think he's won me a huge number of games that Grave-Troll wouldn't have won, especially post-sideboard. The ones I know for sure are attributable to FKZ have 2 forms: 1) With manaless (i.e. only recently): They have a relevant card, like Moat, that I see with Gitaxian Probe (previously with the first Cabal Therapy) and in response to my Cabal Therapy (or the second Therapy in the old mana builds) they Brainstorm and hide it on top. 2) I have go to the very last card to get an anti-soft-hate card like Terastodon or Angel of Despair. If I don't attack that turn I lose despite having an answer for their lock.

There are also a large number of games where FKZ might have been important but I'll never know. Tendrils in particular excels at this, usually sideboarding up to a million Ad Nauseam (like 3) in order to just rip one of the top (or off a cantrip) and combo out on the spot.