[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rukcus

I do appreciate the approach, and getting players to think outside the box. Yes, Deed is bonkers against Maverick - that much is obvious. The question then becomes: how do we best build a deck that wraps around Deed while still having the necessary tools to win effectively in the wide-open metagame that is Legacy?

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That is the question and in order to be able to beat Maverick the G1 has to be better than what the most common BUG control lists ran. I am totally happy with my post-board results (altough it is still a fight and not a walk in the park), but with bad G1 odds it is still an uphill battle overall. My approach would be not to change the hole deck neglecting hymn, goyf and snapcaster mage because that's what made the deck successful in the first place, but to rather change the configuration of the 75 to make it more board control in G1... many players in decembers tcdecks did that.

For reference my next post-board list versus maverick:

24 lands including creeping tar pit & 4 Wasteland


2 Tarmogoyf
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 ghastly demise
1 Darkblast
1 Go for the throat
1 Dismember
4 pernicious deed
2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Spell Pierce
2 thoughtseize
2 Inquisition
2 Surgical Extraction (Punishing) or 2 Hymn to Tourach

4 Brainstorm
1 Life from the Loam

 
To have more board control in G1 without giving too much away against the field I will test:
24 lands including creeping tar pit & 4 Wasteland

4 brainstorm
3 Jace
2 Liliana

3 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce

2 Ghastly Demise
1 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
2 Pernicious Deed

SB:
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Darkblast
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
1 Life from the Loam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by catmint

That is the question and in order to be able to beat Maverick the G1 has to be better than what the most common BUG control lists ran. I am totally happy with my post-board results (altough it is still a fight and not a walk in the park), but with bad G1 odds it is still an uphill battle overall. My approach would be not to change the hole deck neglecting hymn, goyf and snapcaster mage because that's what made the deck successful in the first place, but to rather change the configuration of the 75 to make it more board control in G1... many players in decembers tcdecks did that.

For reference my next post-board list versus maverick:

24 lands including creeping tar pit & 4 Wasteland


2 Tarmogoyf
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 ghastly demise
1 Darkblast
1 Go for the throat
1 Dismember
4 pernicious deed
2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Spell Pierce
2 thoughtseize
2 Inquisition
2 Surgical Extraction (Punishing) or 2 Hymn to Tourach

4 Brainstorm
1 Life from the Loam

 
To have more board control in G1 without giving too much away against the field I will test:
24 lands including creeping tar pit & 4 Wasteland

4 brainstorm
3 Jace
2 Liliana

3 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce

2 Ghastly Demise
1 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
2 Pernicious Deed

SB:
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Darkblast
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
1 Life from the Loam

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Are you not ever concerned by BUG control's slow win condition? I feel like dragging out the game in this legacy environment isn't the best option and dropping a Goyf doesn't seem like something you would want to do. As you said before, this deck has issues with Burn. Perhaps there could be modifications MD that would make the MU less horrendous?

BTW, I've tried Massacre recently and it has been just insane not only against Maverick but Death and Taxes, Dead Ale variants, even against tribals like Gobbies and Elves though they don't have Plains. I haven't tried it against faster zoo but I would imagine it would be pretty good. BTW I don't think you've mentioned the matchup against zoo very much.

I am worried about a slow wincondition...thats why you play Goyf... why wouldnt I want to drop him? after the deck did its work he is at least a 4/5, but usually more and kills quite fast.

Of course you don't want to start by dropping a goyf just like that without having disrupted the opponents hand most of the time. The matchups where you need him early is when you are in a hurry: dredge, burn, combo,...

I never played with Massacre but it honestly looks sick against Maverick. I am just very much in love with deed though, because it also takes knights, sylvan libraries, jittes,... Also I tend to bump into entchantress, affinity or some other randomness quite regulary where deed provides a huge edge. I also dont want to lower my instant spot removal count because it makes me nervous, so the first thing to cut would 1-2 Liliana. Playing Massacre in TA is a much easier decision IMO.

Concerning Zoo:
I honeslty never played against zoo since snapcaster was printed. In theory they have an edge g1, but in g2 and 3 you only have to worry about the nutdraw, since 8 removal + 4 snapcaster should prevent the early damage that brings you into bolt range.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by catmint

For reference my next post-board list versus maverick:

24 lands including creeping tar pit & 4 Wasteland


2 Tarmogoyf
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Snapcaster Mage

4 ghastly demise
1 Darkblast
1 Go for the throat
1 Dismember
4 pernicious deed
2 Liliana of the Veil

3 Spell Pierce
2 thoughtseize
2 Inquisition
2 Surgical Extraction (Punishing) or 2 Hymn to Tourach

4 Brainstorm
1 Life from the Loam

 
To have more board control in G1 without giving too much away against the field I will test:
24 lands including creeping tar pit & 4 Wasteland

4 brainstorm
3 Jace
2 Liliana

3 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce

2 Ghastly Demise
1 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
2 Pernicious Deed

SB:
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Darkblast
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Tarmogoyf
4 Force of Will
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Extirpate
1 Life from the Loam

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I think you should run 4 goyfs MD and 4 pos-side against maverick. I know you plan to disrupt they hole hand first, still, running 4 goyfs would help in a lot of matches. Pos-side you could cut one spot removal, cuz you have 4 deeds. Unearth could help you in a much more agressive pos-deed gameplan (with 4 casters, they should be a must have, try using 1)

(MD -1 Pierce +1 Goyf.) ... Still, you probabily want 4 pierce in 75
Don't worry, maverick is not a so hard matchup, with 2 deed MD you should be able to do just fine (I do), but, my build is much more tempo oriented.

(MD -1 Snare +1 Unearth)

With this changes you will notice a drastic change on your board presence... you should also be able to put opponents in a clock much faster.

On the maverick issue,

Deed is an excellent answer, but wouldn't Dystopia also be a good option vs. Maverick after sideboard? Also, Dystopia is far better against decks that play Natural Order, if that ever comes up, and is faster (it Edicts the opponent the first turn it hits play).

Other comments:

I'm still very unsure about what to do. I haven't gotten to test the Delver list (spent last Friday night cubing instead) but I want to post a general idea of the sort of control deck I'm looking for and the meta I'm looking to tackle, and see what you guys can come up with:

--- The Meta ---
-I always need to be prepared for random stuff, often involving artifacts or enchantments. I've played against Affinity, Imperial Painter, Enchantress, or random artifact-aggro decks numerous times
-There's always a good amount of Reanimator, Dredge, and Storm. I've seen Elves a few times, too.
-There's always some amount of Burn and UW StoneBlade
-The rest of the decks are mainly green decks of various incarnations, mainly Maverick and Zoo but occasionally Junk as well.

--- Personal Stuff/Playstyle ---
-The Legacy decks I've been most comfortable playing in the past are four-color CounterTop and New Horizons/Canadian Thresh (stifle tempo decks). I've never had success playing the latter in small local 'casual' tournaments, though I've done fine with them when taking them to good sized events (5-6 rounds).
-Outside of Legacy, I prefer to play blue-based control when I play Standard, but I'm not averse to playing midrange
-Card availability is not an issue.

Dystopia is super slow, though. It does slow them down, don't get me wrong, but while you're paying upkeep costs, they're beating with Knight. Plus, you can't keep it up forever.

-Matt

Question: Why would one keep or board in Liliana vs Maverick? It seems through my own testing that Maverick dulls all Liliana's abilities (ie they can discard PF, they have Mom/NH/KotR out together)

Nick Snagnolo just Top 8'd an SCG open with the following BUG list. Looks fairly sweet:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=43393

The best card against Maverick right now is Massacre.

For free, it kills:
Mother of Runes
Noble Heirarch
Scryb Ranger
Dryad Arbor
Aven Mindcensor
Quasali Pridemage
Scavenging Ooze (assuming it has not yet grown)

...which often results in a 2+-for-one blowout in your favor.

Then you just use your targeted removal to pick off the scragglers/bigger dudes.

Play 2-3 Massacre in your SB, possibly even 4 in a heavy Maverick meta, and you shouldn't have as much of a problem with this matchup aside from games where they can land an early Choke.

Massacre also isn't too shabby vs UW Blade decks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TonyRo

Nick Snagnolo just Top 8'd an SCG open with the following BUG list. Looks fairly sweet:

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=43393

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Does anybody have thoughts on what the sideboarded 2x Tombstalker and 4x Dark Confidant come in against?

Deathmark was nuts for me all of yesterday.

-Matt

Massacre looks sick versus maverick. However deed is much more powerful versus many decks where massacre is not/barely playable (Merfolk, Affinity, Entchantress, Dredge, Chalice Decks, Metalworker, Belcher, Counterbalance, Painted Stone, random stuff).

Also Deathmark does nothing versus the other tribals or random non green/white stuff.

Because I can beat Maverick already with my current configuration and i do not want to give away anything against the field, I prefer the traditional tools: deed/ghastly demise. If Maverick is too dominant in a meta, there is of course merit to fit some Massacre in. The first thing I would cut is Liliana though...In TA I would definitely prefer Massacre over deed!

Liliana is bad against Punishing Maverick obviously... but also against traditional maverick you have to be careful when to play her in order to get full value because of mindcensor & dryad arbor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by catmint

Liliana is bad against Punishing Maverick obviously... but also against traditional maverick you have to be careful when to play her in order to get full value because of mindcensor & dryad arbor.

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Why would you consider Liliana as a bad play against traditional Maverick? At worst, it's a chainer's edict + 1 less creature dealing damage to you for one turn. Not great, but not bad.

I'm sure you can get plenty of mileage from her if you play her correctly.

I don't consider her bad against non punishing maverick.. just saying you have to be careful how to play her, so you do not endup paying 1BB (1 turn) to have an edict effect and mostly irrelevant damage prevention.

But also deed is not a "straight forward play". Good Maverick players will not run all their dudes blindly into a deed without having pridemage/krosan grip backup. That brings some very favourable situations for liliana.

From my point of view the best sideboard card against maverick that we can play in this deck is Virtue's Ruin

Massacre some times isn't very good, because if they play a Gaddock Teeg and we have a Massacre it will be a death card in our hand moreover Massacre usually doesn't kill Knight of the reliquary, on other hand is easier to play Virtue's Ruin with Snapcaster Mage

I dont think Virtues Ruin is an option. Its not better than Perish.
IMO these narrow cards do not deserve a slot, because there are many other decks out there and deed is good against a lot....

This list popped up on TC Decks, taking 8th at an 84 person tournament. The Scavenging Ooze over the 4th Tarmogoyf is interesting. Tarmogoyf seems to be a nice "Moat" and Ooze may not be big enough off the bat to get the same Moat effect. Ooze would help with the GY hate though. Is this good enough to make the switch?



Creatures [8]
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

Instants [14]
2 Dismember
2 Ghastly Demise
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm

Sorceries [7]
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach

Enchantments [2]
2 Pernicious Deed

Planeswalkers [6]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil

Lands [23]
1 Riptide Laboratory
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
3 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard [15]
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Spell Pierce
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Force of Will
2 Extirpate
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Nature's Claim

Hey, im a passionate Legacyplayer and yesterday I invested into the whole (90%) BUG pool. My first impression was Ill play TeamAmerica, which I tested on Cockatrice and yeah its a nice deck - but it has a few problems versus Maverick, so I thought Deed would be a nice option, on the other hand its a lil weaker versus Combo as far as Im concerned. So yeah, I ended up with the following list:

3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
//22 Lands

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
//7 Creatures

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
//9 Counterspells

4 Brainstorm
//4 Cantrips

3 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat
//4 Removal

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
//7 Discard

3 Pernicious Deed
//3 Sweeper

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
//4 Planeswalker


So please remember im new to this archetype and give ma any criticism - im appreciate every single idea and answer I get.

Thank you very much.

@Jimmy.
I never played with ooze, but there are surely a lot of situations where you want him.
Having no GSZ makes the 1 of not that attractive...As you said the goyfs are there to block or to beat down and there is nothing else doing it that effecient...I'll test 1 ooze and see how it does...

Welcome Phillip!
What comes to my mind when i see your list:

22 lands is on the low side. You really want to make all your land drops for snapcaster and jace without wasting your brainstorms to find them. Also we have to play through wastelands... I've got a lof of value playing sunken ruins and creeping tar pit as my lands #23 and #24.

Speaking of jace and snapcaster... they are the lategame backbone... so without using a confidant plan I would play more of both. Usually people play 4 snapcaster, 3 Jace...

If I would cut a creature it is Goyf (i put 1 in the board in my current configuration), since he functions as a beatdwon card, which is usually needed later on (early on only in specific matches like combo, dredge, burn,...). Especially if you run 3 deed which is antisynergistic with an early goyf... Another option is to put 1 FoW into the SB since we have a lot of discard and spell snare (sometimes pierce) maindeck.

I prefer the full 8 discard spells, since it plays a big role in my "early game surviving" plan and is backbreaking with snapcaster...

Counterspell is not a good option since it is significantly harder to cast, to brainstorm for it, and to use with snapcaster mage. Typical plays that I love on the draw is to wait until turn 2 with my thoughtseize/inquisition so i have always spell snare or pierce up (I play 1 pierce maindeck and 2 in the SB). Also, counterspell is not really necessary since you have a lot of "hand-" and board control besides the conditional counterspells....

How would a Bob-List look like? Im pretty unexperienced yet as told :(

Greetings