Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hollywood
You really, really want to run Faithless Looting and Lion's Eye Diamond. I am not insinuating it is absolutely necessary, but the raw power it provides the deck is unparalleled in Legacy right now. Even Faithless Looting by itself is incredibly good as another Study effect. With LED, it's just pushed over the edge. You can skip running them by placing controlled discard outlets in your deck, which is fine, but really I'd much rather have more explosiveness to close the gap on those match-ups that were questionable to begin with, like Storm Combo. You close the gap big time with LED, which is actually really important.
Faithless Looting is the key spell here because it adds explosiveness and consistency to the deck at the same time, but LED is just incredibly attractive with it. If you guys are having difficulty running LED or are afraid to run it for varying reasons, let everyone know.
You're 100% right when it comes to pre board games, or games where there is no interaction at all. As soon as you face hate, Tireless Tribe is suddenly a million times better than LED and I'm not exaggerating. Having LEDs in your deck when your opponent has active hate pieces is a huge liability. I know that you can just 'race' some conditional hate every now and then.
I'm not afraid of being half a turn slower against Combo decks. Especially not after I figured out that the speed discrepancy is much smaller than I thought. I'm afraid of losing games to graveyard hate. And this is where LED sucks hard.
The question people have to ask themselves is whether they'd rather have an improved post board game when facing any sorts of graveyard hate or if they want to be half a turn faster in games that you usually win anyway.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mojeh
@Vandalize: Congratz on your finish.
I have a couple of questions to you.
- In Brazilian metagame, I usually prefer Firestorm over TTribe on the main deck. How was your impression of the 3-1 split? Would you change it?
-I am not sold to LED Dredge yet, do you think LEDless still has an edge? I mean, everybody is playing LED right now, but I really like playing 15 lands... what made you play LEDless over LED Dredge?
-In my last build, I played only 1 DR main deck, and add the 13 dredger. Do you think the second DR is worth main deck?
Tribe is better maindeck I think. They are bodies for Therapy, and blocks like a champ. Firestorm would be better if I was expecting more GW Maverick, but there were just 1 in the tournament.
LEDless uses Cabal Therapy better, simply because it can cast it off Lands and have more bodies for Flashback (another reason to choose Tribe), while LED usually flashbacks it after comboing.
The 3-1 split was mainly due to having 3 Foil Tireless Tribes only, lol.
As for Dread Return, I've been happy with it everytime I saw it. I think that the small chance to get it in the opening hand is overcome by it's ability to make lots of Zombies and a huge Troll in the process. I was about to try a Flame-kin Zealot in MD Firestorm slot, but changed it in the last minute.
Perhaps I'm going to fit that FKZ somewhere in the main deck again. My friend said something I couldn't agree more: In Legacy, you can't afford to pass the turn, you lose if you pass the turn.
@jares: Tarnished Citadel sucks (mostly against burn). But until they print a gold land with a better drawback, I'm sticking with it.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Izor
You're 100% right when it comes to pre board games, or games where there is no interaction at all. As soon as you face hate, Tireless Tribe is suddenly a million times better than LED and I'm not exaggerating. Having LEDs in your deck when your opponent has active hate pieces is a huge liability. I know that you can just 'race' some conditional hate every now and then.
I'm not afraid of being half a turn slower against Combo decks. Especially not after I figured out that the speed discrepancy is much smaller than I thought. I'm afraid of losing games to graveyard hate. And this is where LED sucks hard.
The question people have to ask themselves is whether they'd rather have an improved post board game when facing any sorts of graveyard hate or if they want to be half a turn faster in games that you usually win anyway.
But see that's just the thing: you can't be afraid of graveyard hate, even with LED in the mix. LED is not a liability, it's a broken enabler that plants your library into your graveyard fast enough where all you'll really need (especially against slower combo decks or decks ill-equipped to deal with Dredge) is a solid discard spell to shake things up. Practice with Therapy is critical. I cannot understate this.
I've had so many people - including real life - rage-quit on me because of blind Therapies crushing their hands. Therapy is incredibly important in sideboard games.
The problem people are having is that they are just resigning themselves to fearing and losing to Extraction when they should just blow the card out. An opponent isn't going to always have one, and the deck is equipped to fight Crypt and Leyline as-is post-board. Surgical Extraction is only decent in the hands of a player who knows how to use it, and with someone who has the nut-high with Snapcaster Mage.
Otherwise, I am not wasting my time and I'm going for the blowout win. Sure, I've walked into Extraction before. But that's a card I only care about in distinct circumstances, where I cannot and should not play around it because all it will do is give the player playing it - who doesn't have it in their hand - more time to find one as turns progress.
The best way to beat Surgical Extraction is to take it on full steam ahead and not fear it. You'll win more games than you'll lose against it, trust me.
Leyline is a different story. I think the card is garbage, and if an opponent is that hard-up on trying to find one to slow me down, I have some free mulligans and plenty of draw spells to get me removal when I need it. If my opponent is running both Extraction and Leyline (overloading on hate), then good for them. Play tight and play around it.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
KevinTrudeau
Are the Flayer-backers (over FKZ) wanting a third Dread Return in the maindeck or sideboard?
You need the third maindeck, because you need to dredge into two to win the game on the spot.
-----
Also, the people who are saying that LED is always boarded out in favor of more lands are suffering from the misconception that LED is a turn one combo card. You ALWAYS have the ability to cast it, but not crack it immediately if that's what the situation calls for. I found myself rarely siding out LEDs, because they are a really good enabler that supercharges Faithless Lootings. And I can see that the players who are winning with LED builds do not have lands in their side, also.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Klazam
Also, the people who are saying that LED is always boarded out in favor of more lands are suffering from the misconception that LED is a turn one combo card. You ALWAYS have the ability to cast it, but not crack it immediately if that's what the situation calls for. I found myself rarely siding out LEDs, because they are a really good enabler that supercharges Faithless Lootings. And I can see that the players who are winning with LED builds do not have lands in their side, also.
That's not what I meant. I'm well aware of what LED can do if noone interacts with me. It doesn't get us anywhere if every time someone points at a disadvantage of LED, the counter argument is always the same: 'But LED is so fast. And so broken. Just run it!'
But what if your opponent has a Tormod's Crypt on the board? Say you have Land+Breakthrough+Dredger+LED. You can't do anything. Literally nothing. You have to overcommit and use your BT to draw some random cards and try to hit another Dredger. And even if you find one, you might not find another one.
Now, if that LED was a Tireless Tribe, it looks a zillion times better. Slowdredge until they're forced to crack the Crypt, bin the Dredger again and go off via Breakthrough. End of story. And in the process, you take X less damage each turn because your 1/X guy blocks their guys to no end.
I know that people seem to be winning with LED Dredge. But do you also know how many people get crushed horribly in tournaments? No, you don't, because you usually only see the top 16, not the bottom 16.
And let's be honest: After Dredge was hyped like nothing after DKA became legal, where are the results? Dredge doesn't perform any better than before Looting, not in the slightest. A top 8 here, two top 16 there - nothing special. And it's not only because of the graveyard hate. Look at how much grave hate people had in their sbs at the SCG Invitational. Immediately after Lootings became legal, all you heard was that the tournament rooms were full of LED Dredge lists. Yet, apart from Prosaks luck-sack win and your top 8, I didn't see any extraordinary results. LEDless Dredge performed just as well before.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
@Vandalize: Thanks for your feedback ^^
Well, I play Firestorm over Tribe exactly because of the increasing number of Maverick (and some Merfolk too, this deck is still very present in my metagame), but I can see tribe's merit.
I just can't agree with the addition of FKZ. It does help racing once in a while, but it's too conditional, I'd rather run a more solid target, maybe Iona. Iona doesn't win right away, but can block a considerable number of plays and is evasive (this can be incredibly useful against Aggro, blocking their removals and swinging while your zombies can block).
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Avacyn, Angel of Hope 5WWW
Flying, Vigilance
Avacyn, Angel of Hope and other permanents you control are indestructable. 8/8
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
K1w1
Avacyn, Angel of Hope 5WWW
Flying, Vigilance
Avacyn, Angel of Hope and other permanents you control are indestructable. 8/8
Swords to Plowshares:cry:
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hollywood
The best way to beat Surgical Extraction is to take it on full steam ahead and not fear it. You'll win more games than you'll lose against it, trust me.
How about a tortured existence/street wraith sideboard?
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vandalize
@jares: Tarnished Citadel sucks (mostly against burn). But until they print a gold land with a better drawback, I'm sticking with it.
I agree. I find that, at this point in time, we'll really just need to make do with what we have. Have you considered running Undiscovered Paradise in the place of some Tarnished Citadels?
Cheers,
jares
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
NewDredgePlayer
How about a tortured existence/street wraith sideboard?
While there's every chance that that might work, it looks to me like investing several slots in the sideboard for the purpose of combating Surgical Extraction might do more harm than good.
Kind Regards,
jares
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
joemauer
Swords to Plowshares:cry:
That happens with each creature without shroud. But if she stays one turn, it should be good game. Your lands can't be destroyed and your zombies are save.But Hey just in theory.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Izor
Isn't that somewhat contradictory?
I'm going to hold my point. Playing decks with 12 spells that can only be cast off of 8 Lands in it isn't my way to play this game. I'll try to squeeze in as many lands as I can. But to everyone his own I guess.
I think Winds is better than Inquiry, though I don't see any reason to play any of those. We have Looting, Study, Breakthrough and Coliseum, why would you want another draw spell?
I'm testing sans Putrid Imp, LED and Coliseum in favor of Phantasmagorian, Undiscovered Paradise and X draw spell
@Vandalize
I don't think it's a question of Tireless Tribe vs Faithless Looting, if you're willing to cut a Land, the Firestorm and the Darkblast from the deck you can play 3xFaithless Looting as sub-par Careful Studies and still keep your 2xDread Return.
Are you SBing out Dread Return vs Surgical Extraction or SBing in Dread Return targets vs Surgical Extraction? I find Surgical Extraction on Golgari Grave Troll neuters its usefulness post-board
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Hi,
I just have a quick and easy question for you probably. Why is it that the deck running Flayer most oftenly only have 2 Ichorids? Wouldn't it be better to have more to be able to do more direct damage?
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
useL
Hi,
I just have a quick and easy question for you probably. Why is it that the deck running Flayer most oftenly only have 2 Ichorids? Wouldn't it be better to have more to be able to do more direct damage?
You say it. Doesn't really have to do wth the Flayer, though...
Of course it would be better to have more Ichys. But those Flayer lists also run LED and running LED forces you to cut back on some of the best cards of the deck, namely Ichorid and sometimes Breakthrough, Careful Study, Cabal Therapy and most importantly Lands.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mojeh
-I am not sold to LED Dredge yet, do you think LEDless still has an edge? I mean, everybody is playing LED right now, but I really like playing 15 lands... what made you play LEDless over LED Dredge?
I think LEDless still has an edge, but it's tunned to fight the wrong set of hates. The reason why LEDless is chosen over LED is the options we used to get from Chain of Vapor, Nature's Claim, Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation out of the side, with the ability to cast them way more often, since running a high amount of lands.
This configuration fights through Tormod's and Relics, but isn't amazing at fighting Extraction or the current deck to beat we see everywhere - Maverick. IMHO, if you want to play LEDless, you need to choose the cards and sideboards to tune the deck against these.
Since LED can fight Maverick with raw speed, and can fight extraction pretty much the same as LEDless, as of right now, out of the two common builds, LED is better. LEDless needs to evolve.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gui
I think LEDless still has an edge, but it's tunned to fight the wrong set of hates. The reason why LEDless is chosen over LED is the options we used to get from Chain of Vapor, Nature's Claim, Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation out of the side, with the ability to cast them way more often, since running a high amount of lands.
This configuration fights through Tormod's and Relics, but isn't amazing at fighting Extraction or the current deck to beat we see everywhere - Maverick. IMHO, if you want to play LEDless, you need to choose the cards and sideboards to tune the deck against these.
Since LED can fight Maverick with raw speed, and can fight extraction pretty much the same as LEDless, as of right now, out of the two common builds, LED is better. LEDless needs to evolve.
SB 4xFirestorm, problem solved.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
SB 4xFirestorm, problem solved.
This doesn't fight Extraction, and you have 40% chance of fighting Maverick... doesn't impress me much...
Also doesn't fight Cage.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
SB 4xFirestorm, problem solved.
It isn't that easy dude...
What do you board out for Firestorms? You can't boar out LED because then you lose speed against Maverick. Even with Firestorm in the Main you don't constantly beat Maverick [or even worse] Bant.
Also, it doesn't fight Extraction, like Gui said.
Re: [Updated Primer] Dredge
Played in a local tourney with my LEDless list(it's posted somewhere before the discussion "tribe or looting"). It turned out that my meta is infested with Crypt's and Relic's- so I'll have to stick with Tribe for a while. Got 4-1(loosing to Doomsday combo 1-2 because I forgot about their other combo plan in sb and missed blind Cabal Therapy there).
In the top 8 I lost to RUG Delver(1-2, won in rounds before 2-1 against him btw:cool:) because of the sb cards not comming into hand at 2nd game and all of them comming to hand and grave the 3rd game.
My qs for YOU:
1) What would be the right sb plan for this matchup? 4th Ichorid+ some artifact hate 2, 3 or 4?(he was playing relics)+ Firestorms(how many?)+ Elesh? What should I take out from LEDless?
2) When should I go for DDD plan playing against RUG Delver? Always?
