Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
I went 3-1 at a local yesterday. Giving me a 4th place. The deck played ok. I am not to excited. It did have have a turn 0/1 kill. Pretty awesome. I'll post the list later. I had sided in 3 cabal ritual, 2 tendrils of agony and 1 skirge familiar against most matchups game 2/3 as they didn't expected it after game 1 win with emrakul dodging storm hate..
As expected the deck is very vurnarable to counters and discard. Even having 3 fow from the side and 4 daze, 4 cabal therapy and 2 misdirection main felt to light.
I will continue toying with the build, but i want to make the deck be stronger in getting Griselbert on the table.
Mvp for me was Dark Ritual and Lotus Petal, enabling turn 1 cantrip into entomb/discard, plus reanimate spell FTW.
The deck is soo incredibly fast.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
If you maindeck daze and thoughtseize then control decks shouldn't be a problem. This deck requires you to play tight, and aggressively mulligan. I probably mulligan close to 50% of the time with the deck.
Discard shouldn't be a problem either, the only card that they can hit that hurts is entomb, which usually gets cast turn 1 anyways. If they take a reanimation spell, that's not a problem as we can cantrip quickly into another one.
There is this deck on MTGO that is dominate right now, which runs 3 X Spell Pierce, 3 X Spell Snare, 4 X Counterspell, and 4 X FOW, 4 Snapcaster...sideboard 3 REB, 4 Relic. Another variation has 4 counterbalance.
In my latest list I ran Dark Confidant X 4 in my sideboard to fight that deck, which proved very effective. I will go down to only 1 Griselbrand if I bring in BOB (no Emrakul).
-2 careful Study, -2 Griselbrand ----> +4 BOB
Edit: Also, the way I read your post, it sounded like you were bringing in Daze from the side. Daze has to be maindeck, not sideboard. Reason being, this deck needs to win game 1, and against control, you need daze to do that. If you lose game 1, then you can get hit with random GY hate game 2 and lose. Game 2 I don't bring in any anti-hate, because its too hard to guess what they bring in. If they beat me, then game 3 I have options.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Tested a bunch of preboard games with a slightly tweaked version of Wess's list, and I've been very very happy with it.
// 13 lands
1 Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
// 8 creatures
2 Children of Korlis
1 Hapless Researcher
1 Laboratory Maniac
3 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
3 Gitaxian Probe
3 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Entomb
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Shallow Grave
1 Intuition
In the 10 or so games I've played against a Deathrite deck with Force, Cabal Therapy has been amazing both for targeting myself and the opponent, flashing back, etc. Intuition has been insane as well, often finding 2+ Griselbrand to play around Deathrite.
Gitaxian Probe is one of those cards that is very subtly good. I've found it to be very good in TES, and I'd imagine it's good here.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Interesting... how are 13 lands running for you? Do you miss the basic Swamp at all? How is Hapless Researcher? Seems like I would hate to use reanimation on him just to loot...
Definitely like how you've fit Probe in there - such a sweet card when you're running therapy.
That looks like a pretty sweet list, actually. I really like the Intuition and Dazes as well. I was already thinking about cutting the 4th Griselbrand in my list for a singleton Intuition. If I get some time in between Doomsday games, I'll test that (or something like it) along with Tendrils in the Lab Maniac slot.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
.dk
Interesting... how are 13 lands running for you? Do you miss the basic Swamp at all? How is Hapless Researcher? Seems like I would hate to use reanimation on him just to loot...
Definitely like how you've fit Probe in there - such a sweet card when you're running therapy.
That looks like a pretty sweet list, actually. I really like the Intuition and Dazes as well. I was already thinking about cutting the 4th Griselbrand in my list for a singleton Intuition. If I get some time in between Doomsday games, I'll test that (or something like it) along with Tendrils in the Lab Maniac slot.
The 13 lands have been great. I was getting flooded a ton. This deck feels like it needs about as many IMSs as TES, which plays 12 and 3 Chrome Mox, assuming you're not expecting to cast Show and Tell of lands consistently.
The Researcher is mostly as a body to flashback Therapy, as is the Scrubland for Children. I haven't played against a Wasteland deck with this manabase yet, but I suspect that this deck is so fast and has so many artifact IMSs that Wasteland isn't a huge problem.
Yeah, Tendrils vs. Lab Man is fairly irrelevant. Tendrils is more useful to just storm off or if you brick really hard on Children, but I've never yet bricked if I have 8+ life and an attack. Lab Man allows you to tutor for your kill in case it's in the bottom 6 cards of your library, but that's pretty rare.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
This is the latest 75 I 4-0'd the DE's with. It feels like the most broken, soul-crushing deck I've played with in Legacy, and I played Reanimator with Mystical tutor when it was legal:
Main Deck
60 cards
1 Island
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
15 lands
2 Children of Korlis
2 Griselbrand
1 Laboratory Maniac
6 creatures
4 Brainstorm
1 Preordain
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Daze
4 Entomb
3 Goryo's Vengeance
2 Intuition
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
4 Shallow Grave
3 Thoughtseize
Sideboard
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Dark Confidant
3 Force of Will
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Wipe Away
2 Liliana of the Veil
Main changes: -1 Griselbrand, -2 Careful study, +1 Intuition, +1 Preordain, +1 Daze
Sideboard: +4 Dark Confidant, +2 Liliana
The decklist is performing very well, and to me, it feels like its pretty much optimized, so, I won't be making any major changes to it, just minor stuff, like I might change the preordain for a sensei's divining top, plays nicer with BOB, and fetches.
@Phazonmuant, like the Gitaxian probe wish I could fit it in. 13 lands seems a bit light, I find I always want to fetch or have an underground sea or 2 for Daze protection, and to cast intuition if needed (neither of which TES wants to do). Additionally, the deck already has a high mulligan rate, I don't want to increase that. But, let us know how it works out.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
The list is evolving into a great list. The inclusion of Children of Korlis really changed the deck post-Griselbrand to go crazy. It never seems to fizzle after connecting with Griselbrand.
As for card choices. Has anyone considered bringing 4x Silence main/side since we are already splashing white? For this to work you might need to include 1-2 white duals. Tundra > Scrubland for Daze. But possibly not having black man might be an issue. I already cut Islands down to one for this reason.
I personally don't like Thoughtseize being in the list as the loss of 2 life might mean you can activate Grisel only once pre-combat in some scenario's. Personally i still prefer Cabal Therapy over thoughtseize as it can self target and it might even remove threats in multiples. Also as a discard 5-8 i do prefer Duress as it is there to remove disruption and can remove FoW.
Also i like having both Ponder and Careful Study next to Brainstorm. Ponder can let you dig deep and you can choose to shuffle. Where CS can discard a creature. The last has been relevant in a number of situations. Gitaxian Probe provides usefull information, but lacks the ability to do something about it, where Cabal Therapy on it's own does both. Game 1, Turn 1 you'll propably go for FoW anyway. The two combined totally wrecks a hand, but it gives up some consistancy. And it seems with this in your main you might need to mulligan more.
Intuition feels a bit to slow for this deck. Having only 1-2 makes it kinda random to.
When running ToA i included 1 Skirge Familiar to solve mana issue's. BBB seems to be real easy to setup, while getting BBBB for ToA can sometimes be a problem. Also with Skirge Familiar you can hardcast Emmy. Or just use it as a discard outlet + mana generation when you can't generate W for some reason to get Children on the table.
For mana sources, 13 lands feels fine. Mostly you only need 1-2 land drops before winning. Lotus Petal is more important due to Children. For this reason i added 1 Mox Diamond. When drawing of Griselbrand you have an extra white source and the extra land draws are useless anyway. With Mox Diamond 1-2 Chrome Mox is enough. I prefer 1 Chrome Mox in this case.
As for Lab Man. I see a scenario where he gets removed somehow and you loose the game instantly. Can he be that vulnerable? Is this even a realistic scenario?
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Intuition feels a bit to slow for this deck. Having only 1-2 makes it kinda random to.
Intuition is a bit slow, but basically acts as extra Entombs when you need it, and is a tutor if you absolutely need it to be. I don't think you can realistically play more than about 2, but it is very powerful to have access to. Having it instead of an entomb will always beat Deathrite Shaman, for example - just get multiple men.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
As for Lab Man. I see a scenario where he gets removed somehow and you loose the game instantly. Can he be that vulnerable? Is this even a realistic scenario?
I don't see a scenario where this happens, as every time the Lab Man kills comes up, the TinFins Player should have Griselbrand in play and is at more than enough life to draw again in response to removal. Making Lab Man should be the very last step before drawing the end of your library.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
For those running Children/Lab Maniac/etc., are you finding the 4/3 split of Grave/Vengeance ok, or have you been burned by Shallow Grave returning the wrong creature?
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Richard Cheese
For those running Children/Lab Maniac/etc., are you finding the 4/3 split of Grave/Vengeance ok, or have you been burned by Shallow Grave returning the wrong creature?
Lab Man should be the last creature to enter the grave. You might answer that by casting Entomb -> Emrakul and reset the loop. In the version with Skirge Familiar this is even more easy to accomplish. You can discard a Children in response and continue the infinite loop. You still require Emrakul for this tho.
7 Renimate spells is as thight as it can be. I think its the perfect number. You really need one of those to initially land a Griselbrand turn 1/2. Decreasing that number also decreases that "chance".
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Lab Man should be the last creature to enter the grave. You might answer that by casting Entomb -> Emrakul and reset the loop. In the version with Skirge Familiar this is even more easy to accomplish. You can discard a Children in response and continue the infinite loop. You still require Emrakul for this tho.
7 Renimate spells is as thight as it can be. I think its the perfect number. You really need one of those to initially land a Griselbrand turn 1/2. Decreasing that number also decreases that "chance".
I'm just talking about reversing the ratio, not cutting reanimation.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Wess, can you post how you sideboarded? This sideboard looks very...strange.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Richard Cheese
I'm just talking about reversing the ratio, not cutting reanimation.
Shallow Grave is the nut, and grave order doesn't really come up often. If I could play 7 Shallow Graves, I would.
For those playing Intuition, one of them comprehensive rules says that a player putting multiple cards into his/her library or graveyard at the same time gets to chose the order. So you get to choose the order of the 2 cards that go to the bin.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
The list is evolving into a great list. The inclusion of
Children of Korlis really changed the deck post-Griselbrand to go crazy. It never seems to fizzle after connecting with Griselbrand.
As for card choices. Has anyone considered bringing 4x
Silence main/side since we are already splashing white? For this to work you might need to include 1-2 white duals. Tundra > Scrubland for Daze. But possibly not having black man might be an issue. I already cut Islands down to one for this reason.
Yeah, Children of Korlis is pretty much insane. :)
I was originally running 4 Silence in my sideboard, since they imprint on Chrome Mox well to cast Children. However, I ended up cutting them for countermagic in the GP Deck as I felt Flusterstorms and Diverts were better in a meta that was expected to be full of discard spells. This was also my reasoning for the inclusion of the singleton Mox Diamond - to make sure I always had a W source after drawing to cast Children with (sometimes you'll have played your land and a lotus petal pre-reanimation to go off and pay for Daze, etc.).
Quote:
I personally don't like Thoughtseize being in the list as the loss of 2 life might mean you can activate Grisel only once pre-combat in some scenario's. Personally i still prefer Cabal Therapy over thoughtseize as it can self target and it might even remove threats in multiples. Also as a discard 5-8 i do prefer Duress as it is there to remove disruption and can remove FoW.
Also i like having both Ponder and Careful Study next to Brainstorm. Ponder can let you dig deep and you can choose to shuffle. Where CS can discard a creature. The last has been relevant in a number of situations. Gitaxian Probe provides usefull information, but lacks the ability to do something about it, where Cabal Therapy on it's own does both. Game 1, Turn 1 you'll propably go for FoW anyway. The two combined totally wrecks a hand, but it gives up some consistancy. And it seems with this in your main you might need to mulligan more.
I found the lifeloss from Thoughtseize to be of little relevance when running Children of Korlis. The lifegain there usually makes up for it.
The more I've been thinking about it, the more I think Careful Study isn't needed. We don't run enough good things to pitch, and unless you're land flooded, you pretty much want every spell in your deck in your hand. That's why I've cut them for Cabal Therapy - because as you said, Therapy is awesome at protection (especially if you know their hand from Thoughtseize), can discard Griselbrand out of your hand, and can flashback to increase storm and save your GB from getting RFG'd.
Quote:
Intuition feels a bit to slow for this deck. Having only 1-2 makes it kinda random to.
I tend to agree for those builds running extremely land light. However, if you're packing 14-15, running a 1 of or 2 of is probably fine. It can easily act as Entomb 5-6 if the game is going long, and as others mentioned, can tutor for Children + Reanimation if you don't have them post GB draws.
Quote:
When running ToA i included 1
Skirge Familiar to solve mana issue's. BBB seems to be real easy to setup, while getting BBBB for ToA can sometimes be a problem. Also with Skirge Familiar you can hardcast Emmy. Or just use it as a discard outlet + mana generation when you can't generate W for some reason to get Children on the table.
I originally tested Skirge Familiar a long time ago as well. However, once I switched to the Children of Korlis builds, I found I didn't need it. Running the Lotus Petals, Rituals, and Emrakul to shuffle them all back and recycle them has been enough to get 2BB for Tendrils every time I've gone off. The only time I could see it being a problem is if you draw the Tendrils and no Children on your first 14 or 21, and don't have enough to cast it - but that too seems very rare.
Quote:
For mana sources, 13 lands feels fine. Mostly you only need 1-2 land drops before winning. Lotus Petal is more important due to Children. For this reason i added 1 Mox Diamond. When drawing of Griselbrand you have an extra white source and the extra land draws are useless anyway. With Mox Diamond 1-2 Chrome Mox is enough. I prefer 1 Chrome Mox in this case.
Yes - exactly the same reason I ran a singleton Mox Diamond at GP Denver as well. I wanted 5+ Lotus Petals.
Quote:
As for Lab Man. I see a scenario where he gets removed somehow and you loose the game instantly. Can he be that vulnerable? Is this even a realistic scenario?
That was my worry too. I was piloting Menendian's Lab Maniac Doomsday deck for a while, and he is indeed rather vulnerable. I think with this deck, however, since you actually have your entire deck in your hand (rather than a 5 card tutor like Doomsday), you should be able to protect him with Discard or Countermagic (whichever disruption suite you're running) just fine.
In general though, my biggest worry is still the sideboard. Game 2, you can expect a lot of hate in the form of countermagic and Surgical, and it can be very difficult to play through that with some anti-hate.
The SnT sideboard plan was OK for me - but I'm not yet convinced it's better than just running some Cabal Rituals, Phyrexian Obliterators, and Massacre Wurms or something.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
I was watching Todd Anderson stream reanimator and he played against this deck! Or at least something similar. Todd got absolutely nutty hands game 1 and 2 and animated Griselbrand on turn 1-2 each game by playing 2 Petals and Exhume or Animate Dead. The poor TinFins player got crushed.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Haha, I saw that too. He saw Children of Korlis and was like, "oh it's THAT deck!" and proceeded to crush. :(
i can't see how there is another deck running Children of Korlis in Legacy, much less Entomb + Children...
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Richard Cheese
I'm just talking about reversing the ratio, not cutting reanimation.
ah. Thats makes more sense. I was reading it wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
I was watching Todd Anderson stream reanimator and he played against this deck! Or at least something similar. Todd got absolutely nutty hands game 1 and 2 and animated Griselbrand on turn 1-2 each game by playing 2 Petals and Exhume or Animate Dead. The poor TinFins player got crushed.
Last weekend i lost to a regular Reanimator list 0-2. Regular reanimator lists have a good disruption package to deal with TinFin. They can Reanimate/Animate Dead Griselbrand from our grave. And if they connect Iona on black, theres little to do about it, but chain of vapor or echoing truth.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Last weekend i lost to a regular Reanimator list 0-2. Regular reanimator lists have a good disruption package to deal with TinFin. They can Reanimate/Animate Dead Griselbrand from our grave. And if they connect Iona on black, theres little to do about it, but chain of vapor or echoing truth.
Hey Bobmans, that was me piloting the Reanimator list.
I love the decklists posted here, but what you already suggested, the deck seems to be too sensitive for counters and discard. Post-board I put some extra Thoughtseizes and Duress in, just because I knew I had to make sure I could disrupt you long enough so I could reanimate a big target. Also I figured I could use the Thoughtseizes to discard on of your creatures if necessary and reanimate those.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cybey
Hey Bobmans, that was me piloting the Reanimator list.
I love the decklists posted here, but what you already suggested, the deck seems to be too sensitive for counters and discard. Post-board I put some extra Thoughtseizes and Duress in, just because I knew I had to make sure I could disrupt you long enough so I could reanimate a big target. Also I figured I could use the Thoughtseizes to discard on of your creatures if necessary and reanimate those.
Yep, i really need to figure out how to play that matchup. Regular Reanimte vs TinFins is like SneakShow vs OmniTell...
Silence really got me thinking and i will try those in the next list i'm gonna play. I'll buildup the manabase the same as the UBR list, except for Badlands and Volcanic Island being Scrubland and Tundra. In a 13 land base it would look like:
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
Next to this, i am not sure about the numbers, going:
3-4 Silence
3-4 Daze
3-4 Cabal Therapy
As a repeated statement from previous posts ill drop Careful Study and go 4 Ponder and see how it feels. I think that 4 Cabal Therapy is the right number in this case as it functions two roles. That Leaves me to 7 open slots for Daze and Silence. I might go 4 Daze and 3 Silence and 1 Silence in the SB as Silence might be mana hungry. Skirge Familiar got booted. Emrakul stays. I like having two wincons in the maindeck. Still i am not sure if i want to use either LabMan or ToA as my second wincon. It seems at this point it doesn't really matter. I've been looking for alternatives as a wincon, but this still is the most compact way to win. I like LabMan over Tendrils because it wins instant speed. Meaning that from the first Griselbrand activation you can keep responding to something you're opponent is casting/activating. If you keep stacking Dark Rituals and float some black mana you can keep looping Entombing/Shallow Grave -> Children into Entomb/Goryo's -> Emrakul into gain more, get more and then you can win with Entomb/Shallow Grave -> Labman. This requires you to cast 3x Dark Ritual. Leaving the 7th B open for the new loop.
For a possible Sideboard plan i have looked up some options. You guys have any additions?
Karakas
Oblivion Ring/Detention Sphere
Stp/PtE
Silence
Erase
Disenchant
Surgical Extraction
Extirpate
Pithing Needle
Echoing Truth/Chain of Vapor
Dread of Night
Deathmark
Thoughtseize/Duress/IoK
Spell Pierce
Force of Will (requires to much blue cards. In my list i only have 13 blue cards to pitch)
Flusterstorm
Divert
Misdirection (Same as FoW)
Leyline of the Void
Leyline of Sanctity (might block you from self targeting discard to drop Griselbrand)
Contagion
Unmask
Show and Tell (requires 4 Griselbrand)
Of course all sideboards are meta dependant, so i would like to have an overal view to what might be useful against what matchup.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Ah the eternal sideboard conundrum. One interesting approach I thought of is cramming Show and Tell + another compact combo in there like Painter/Grindstone or RiP/Helm. The problem with Show and Tell is that it's not great when you only have 4-5 good targets for it, and if you pull the whole reanimation plan in favor of protection, you're more vulnerable to discard, and just as likely to get blown out by Surgical, or even worse, Extirpate. So you end up running a bunch of other stuff just to protect Show and Tell. If you ran something like 4 Painter, 4 Grindstone, 4 Show and Tell and 3 Flusterstorm, I wonder if it might be close to the original plan of just throwing haymakers until one lands. That said, all the two card combos are a lot more mana intensive and a bit clunkier, but it might be worth testing.
Oh and FYI Leyline of Sanctity says "You have hexproof.", so it shouldn't stop you from Therapying yourself.
Re: TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Richard Cheese
Ah the eternal sideboard conundrum. One interesting approach I thought of is cramming Show and Tell + another compact combo in there like Painter/Grindstone or RiP/Helm. The problem with Show and Tell is that it's not great when you only have 4-5 good targets for it, and if you pull the whole reanimation plan in favor of protection, you're more vulnerable to discard, and just as likely to get blown out by Surgical, or even worse, Extirpate. So you end up running a bunch of other stuff just to protect Show and Tell. If you ran something like 4 Painter, 4 Grindstone, 4 Show and Tell and 3 Flusterstorm, I wonder if it might be close to the original plan of just throwing haymakers until one lands. That said, all the two card combos are a lot more mana intensive and a bit clunkier, but it might be worth testing.
Oh and FYI Leyline of Sanctity says "You have hexproof.", so it shouldn't stop you from Therapying yourself.
aahh, ooh. Yeah, ofcourse. Indeed.
Anyway, for an alternative combo plan post-board Doomsday might be fun to look at as it also has a win with LabMan. Just need the right configuration to have it work.
Sensei's Divining Top
Ideas Unbound
Gitaxian Probe
Lion's Eye Diamond
Laboratory Maniac
Shelldock Isle
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Amulet of Vigor
Burning Wish
Tendrils of Agony
Just a selection here.
