[Primer/Deck] Stax

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Originally Posted by feline

Is there anyone out there actively still pushing a Stax / Prison Stax archetype anymore?

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I've been fooling around with a much more 'Shops based version of Stax - Spheres and Thorns and Wires oh my! - and it is as polarized to play/draw as the Vintage version. Games in which you play Sphere->3Sphere are bonkers, games in which your opponent just T1 Delvers you are awful.

I feel like many of the advantages of a 'traditional' white Stax build have been diminished in Legacy over the last decade. If you want the prison-y elements of the white cards, DnT is a serviceable mana denial strategy, and if you want to play Chalice and 3sphere, Blue/X Tezz shells and MUD represent better long games. The problem with Prison decks is that if your opponent can get under the lock, proactive elements have a hard time reacting (classic Standstill is probably one of the best examples of this) and the proliferation of Tempo strategies using hyper-efficient creatures like Delver has made it much more difficult.

There just isn't a lot of room in Legacy for decks that want to cast cards with an average CMC of 4.

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Originally Posted by Ellomdian

I've been fooling around with a much more 'Shops based version of Stax - Spheres and Thorns and Wires oh my! - and it is as polarized to play/draw as the Vintage version. Games in which you play Sphere->3Sphere are bonkers, games in which your opponent just T1 Delvers you are awful.

I feel like many of the advantages of a 'traditional' white Stax build have been diminished in Legacy over the last decade. If you want the prison-y elements of the white cards, DnT is a serviceable mana denial strategy, and if you want to play Chalice and 3sphere, Blue/X Tezz shells and MUD represent better long games. The problem with Prison decks is that if your opponent can get under the lock, proactive elements have a hard time reacting (classic Standstill is probably one of the best examples of this) and the proliferation of Tempo strategies using hyper-efficient creatures like Delver has made it much more difficult.

There just isn't a lot of room in Legacy for decks that want to cast cards with an average CMC of 4.

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This is the sad truth. I thought about a W/G Stax since the green splash could help mana acceleration. I still blame Delver for not being able to bring Stax to my LGS.

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Originally Posted by Nuke is Good

This is the sad truth. I thought about a W/G Stax since the green splash could help mana acceleration. I still blame Delver for not being able to bring Stax to my LGS.

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I think this is true for most Legacy archetypes in general - Creatures get better, spells get 'worse.' It's not just Delver's fault (though he is the poster child,) power creep has resulted in 3/3's for 2 with upside, and you have cards like Anticipate that would likely have been printed at U 3-4 years ago instead of the 1U they are at now.

Then again, you still have cards like Abrupt Decay pop up that are basically tailor-made for Legacy.

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Originally Posted by Ellomdian

I think this is true for most Legacy archetypes in general - Creatures get better, spells get 'worse.' It's not just Delver's fault (though he is the poster child,) power creep has resulted in 3/3's for 2 with upside, and you have cards like Anticipate that would likely have been printed at U 3-4 years ago instead of the 1U they are at now.

Then again, you still have cards like Abrupt Decay pop up that are basically tailor-made for Legacy.

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Can someone post a current legacy white stax deck plz? I saw this deck in last shop tournament and I liked it.

I run a green splash Stax list. Played side events at GP Vegas and fared pretty well. Only card I lost to was Jace. Definitely need to swap out O-Rings with Council's Judgment in the main.

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Originally Posted by TLK

I run a green splash Stax list. Played side events at GP Vegas and fared pretty well. Only card I lost to was Jace. Definitely need to swap out O-Rings with Council's Judgment in the main.

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Cool! I'm sure Stax is stillviable but it needs more innovation to adapt to the new meta. I'm currently brewing a Mono Blue Tezzeret version.. I'll post soon.

i like the W stax a lot.

Stay got a post on starcity today.

The deck has to have a great miracles matchup as pretty much every card is valid and miracles has no clock to stop smokestacks from gobbling up the entire board. If I am right the wasteland/port mana base will be the next great archetype.

Creatures (4)

4 Lodestone Golem

Lands (26)

4 Ancient Tomb
3 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
3 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

Spells (30)

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Mox Diamond
4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire

Sideboard

2 Defense Grid
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Zuran Orb
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Razormane Masticore
4 Spellskite

Thanks for posting, I would've missed that article otherwise.

Here are some thoughts:

• 4 SoR and 0 Trinisphere seems to go against common wisdom. It's slightly better against 4-5 CMC cards like planeswalkers and FOW, and against 3 CMC cards of which there aren't many right now. But it's significantly worse against 1 CMC, which is everywhere. Delver, DRS, Brainstorm, Ponder, Lightning Bolt, Spell Pierce, Gitaxian Probe, etc). It also clashes with CotV on 2. Though, SoR can also be casted more reliably on turn 1, which could be especially helpful on the draw. An interesting choice, but needs testing.
• Do 4 Lodestone Golems really deserve 3 Cavern of Souls that could be Grim Monoliths, Tabernacles, the fourth Port, etc?
• Are the 4 Tangle Wires good enough without Goblin Welder?

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Originally Posted by intelli78

Thanks for posting, I would've missed that article otherwise.

Here are some thoughts:

• 4 SoR and 0 Trinisphere seems to go against common wisdom. It's slightly better against 4-5 CMC cards like planeswalkers and FOW, and against 3 CMC cards of which there aren't many right now. But it's significantly worse against 1 CMC, which is everywhere. Delver, DRS, Brainstorm, Ponder, Lightning Bolt, Spell Pierce, Gitaxian Probe, etc). It also clashes with CotV on 2. Though, SoR can also be casted more reliably on turn 1, which could be especially helpful on the draw. An interesting choice, but needs testing.
• Do 4 Lodestone Golems really deserve 3 Cavern of Souls that could be Grim Monoliths, Tabernacles, the fourth Port, etc?
• Are the 4 Tangle Wires good enough without Goblin Welder?

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This deck wants Chalice on 1 never 2 because ratchet bomb and sphere cost 2. With Chalice on 1 Trinisphere does exactly the same vs cmc2 that Sphere does. Sphere then becomes better at cmc 3+

I agree that lodestone maybe an odd choice, especially with bolt running rampant and I'm currently working on a list without it. a 4cmc sphere might not gel with the plan of the list.

I really like the list and will be testing my version IRL. Ill get back to you all with a list once its been battle tested.

This is the list I played last night at my LGS

Pendrell Vale Prison

4 Tomb
4 City
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
4 Mishras Factory
3 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Mox diamond

4 Lodestone
2 Ratchet bomb
3 Ensaring bridge
4 Smokestack
4 Tanglewire
4 Chalice of the void
4 Sphere of resistance
4 Crucible of Worlds


Side

1 Zuran orb
2 Bottled cloister
1 Ensaring bridge
2 Thorn of amethyst
3 Pyrexian revoker
1 Batterskull
2 Tormods crypts
1 Ratchet bomb
2 Defence grid

Went 2-1-1

Played very badly vs Grixis control to loose the first round. I had never played a deck like this but I should have been more aggressive with my manlands. He did however have MD Kologhans command which is a bit annoying..... 0-2

Drew with Miracles, probs should have played better but still learning the optimum sequencing in the opening turns. Chalice on 5 was funny. 1-1

Beat High Tide. he didn't really have a chance game 1. game 2 went very long as I had him locked out with chalice, thorn and defence grid but no pressure. 2-0

Beat Storm. He mulled to oblivion but my opener was very good anyway. G2 he played young pyro and we had lots of shenanigans. 2-0

Thoughts

Deck seemed very solid and fun to play. Tabernacle was a good idea with all the pyro and mentor decks about. The deck felt a bit land heavy and Ancient tomb is a real problem a lot of the time. Pilot error was the biggest factor in loosing the 3 I lost. Lodestone was fine and is probably correct even with Tabernacle in the deck. I didn't play a discard heavy deck so Bottled Cloister wasn't used. Still looking forward to drawing extra cards and having EBridge out. Sideboard is just a bit random and hard to make when the main is still in such flux.
In the future I would like to try out Ghost quarter and really push the LD side of the deck.

Plans

Main
- 1 Port
- 1 Mox
- 1 Tabernacle (this kills me)
+ 2 Ghost quarter
+ 1 Ratchet Bomb

Please respond with some suggestions or any questions. I feel like there is something really good in this style of deck, especially with the interaction between Mox Diamond ramping out our chalice and sphere effects and Tabernacles upside with Tanglewire and Smokestack with its legendary downside decreased with access to Mox Diamond.

Cheers

Your decklist looks really good and love to hear more about your sideboard choices and strategies against the current post-DTT meta. Can this deck beat Lands somehow? I myself just started playing similar list (decklist here) and it feels great. I'm missing the Tabernacles (too expensive), but still managed to win matches here and there. if possible I'd like to see more brewing and conversation about this deck here.

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Originally Posted by Sibelius

This is the list I played last night at my LGS



Please respond with some suggestions or any questions. I feel like there is something really good in this style of deck, especially with the interaction between Mox Diamond ramping out our chalice and sphere effects and Tabernacles upside with Tanglewire and Smokestack with its legendary downside decreased with access to Mox Diamond.

Cheers

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Stax has always been a great deck, almost no matter how u build it but the reason it isn't tier 1 is because its not consistent. When you fix that issue, let me know. It's unlikely that anything will ever be printed that will help it Either. Any kind of draw / manipulation thats colorless is incredibly powerful and tutor effects are not in color;ess's color pie unless incredibly over costed.


EDIT

To add something more constructive. it seems like you might consider running cloud posts and glimmer posts since you aren't running the traditional white stax. White stax has proven well because of its synergy with flagstones of trokair and armageddon. I guess if you really wanted to you could substitute winter orb for armageddon but then you also lose out on ghostly prison. Furthermore, in a colorless list Karn / gin get discussed. Probably win more.

Red may be your best bet now with daretti goblin planes walker dude

in addition to apple's points, I think the main reason it is hard for stax to play is due to the lack of fetch lands. Sensei's Divining Top is an incredibly powerful selection tool given enough shuffle effects, but it just doesn't work without fetchland. I believe that stax variants benefit immensely from a color splash. Then there is the awkward dissynergy between chalice of the void and SDT, Brainstorm and Ponder which makes you wonder if you should play chalice of the void at all in the first place. My favorite combination is R/G with sylvan library and punishing fire, but blue or black are probably better.

I prefer blue over white right now but there are a couple similarities.

Ghostly Prison = Propaganda / Dream Tides
Magus of the Tabernacle = Pendrell Mists

The main reason why I'm playing blue is Tezzeret the Seeker. His tutoring ability is especially useful. You can also play stasis as he can untap seat of the synod and establish the lock by tutoring for Orb of Dreams.

Winter Orb should be good here as it works well with basically everything. Sideboard you can play Aetherize for stronger creature control if needed (like vs Elves). My list is as follows:

4 Tezzeret, the Seeker
4 Propaganda
2 Pendrell Mists
2 Stasis

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
3 Tangle Wire

4 Sky Diamond
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Orb of Dreams
3 Smokestack
1 Sundial of the Infinite
3 Winter Orb

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Mishra's Factory
9 Island

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Originally Posted by Avez

Your decklist looks really good and love to hear more about your sideboard choices and strategies against the current post-DTT meta. Can this deck beat Lands somehow? I myself just started playing similar list (decklist here) and it feels great. I'm missing the Tabernacles (too expensive), but still managed to win matches here and there. if possible I'd like to see more brewing and conversation about this deck here.

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After the nice PM you sent me I've had a good think about Stax. I honestly think that this deck is at its best running a Mox Diamond and Tabernacle package. Unfortunately it is a very very expensive card but there really is no substitute for it.
My main deck currently is Lands but I've yet to play my stax list against a competent Lands player. I would have thought Game 1 with 3 Ensnaring bridges you would be quite safe. Chalice on 1 will do alot of work against them. Obviously then landing a chalice on 2 is game over. You may even be able to fight them on the land destruction with 4 Crucible main.
After board is where the problems will arise. Obviously add the last bridge and your graveyard hate. Muligan to a hand that has some resistance to wasteland that can hopefully not crumple to a single grip. If they are on the RUG Lands list you may have more problems because of Engineered Explosives and A Ruins, so save your Waste or Crypt/Relic for the correct moment if you can. Luckily this list is played less and less because Intuition really sucks at the moment.

That Blue Stax list desperately needs some more early turn plays. You can't just rely on resolving Tshere and then a 4 drop. The curve looks suspect and it looks weak to Wasteland.

Obviously Mono Brown Stax needs some library manipulation or way of abusing artifact interactions. The main issue is SDT and Goblin welder have a cmc of 1 and Chalice of the Void on 1 is our decks best play.
The simple fact is that stopping our opponents Brainstorm, Ponder, Bolt, Nimble Mongoose, Delver, Spell Pierce, SDT, Plow, Crop Rotation, Gamble, Deathrite, Entomb, Reanimate, Dark Ritual, G probe, Aether Vial, Relic, Pithing needle ETC ETC ETC is about a thousand times better than anything we can ever do with SDT or Welder. The only option is to recognise the disjunction between and try and play with both. However you want Chalice on 1 ON TURN 1 almost every game :(

The issue with my list is that it doesn't draw extra cards so I am certainly interested in looking at a cloudpost + coercive portal mana base. We do loose the manlands that are such a useful presence with Tabernacle and Smokestack.

I tried the Ghost quarter and didn't find them great. More work needed here certainly.

My list again for reference. Please test the exact version if you can, it is surprisingly good.

4 Tomb
4 City
4 Waste
4 Port
3 Tabernacle
4 Factory
4 Mutavault

3 Mox Diamond

4 Chalice
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Ratchet Bomb
4 Tanglewire
4 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Smokestack

Sideboard
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Ensnaring Bridge

the rest currently in flux. cards I am moving between include
Bottled Cloister (pet card)
Spellskite (this looks promising)
Relic of Progenitus (unhappy with Chalice)
Tormods Crypt
Batterskull
Zuran Orb (probs good to have 2 in the list)

Please be aware of the mana curve of decks like these. High impact and low to the ground is where one wants to be. We may have lots of sol lands but mana can easily be a problem if we encounter a player who finds 2 wastes or horror of horror a Shardless player with loam main.

Where to go now ?
Options are testing that sweet Kharn Portal list linked above, trying out Howling mine in a list more optomised for Land Destruction, possibly with Black Vice. Obviously we encounter then Chalice issue again. Final options are some kind of Mox, Tabernacle, Sylvan Library, Planeswalker brew that has been tickling the back of my mind for ages.

Hope some of this massive post is interesting and gets people making good competitive lists.

I'll definitely be more active in the STAX thread from now on. (Tabernacle is the way to go :))

Sib

Have you considered playing a copy or two of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth? Tabernacle can tap for mana and Ancient Tomb is more manageable when you don't need it to tap for two mana.

Also, if you are playing with Winter Orb, Ghost Town may be a good option.

Winter Orb is probably the way to go. It's amazing with Ghostly Prison, Tabernacle + variants (pendrell mists, magus), trinisphere and tangle wire.

Not to mention it's great against Miracles!

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Originally Posted by Blastoderm

Winter Orb is probably the way to go. It's amazing with Ghostly Prison, Tabernacle + variants (pendrell mists, magus), trinisphere and tangle wire.

Not to mention it's great against Miracles!

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Winter Orb..... Winter Orb ..... Winter Orb......
I love the card. It stops them untapping and with my Tabernacle I might be able to wrath a problematic board.

However it stops me untapping and this is an incredibly mana hungry deck. I can't kill them with man lands any more because Winter Orb ruins the clock. The entire focus of my stax list is to stymie (slow down) my opponent, have more permanent than them and then destroy them with wastelock or Smokestack. With winter orb out I slow myself down. And this is a terrible terrible idea against virtually all Legacy decks.

Legacy is a format built on 1 drops, you guys know this, and landing a Winter Orb early just allows them to play their Delvers and Dark rituals and I get stuck with 3/4 drops in hand. Try to think of the orb as you would when drafting a cube. It goes in an aggressive deck or one that can really punish them for the tempo swing it affords. The Stax list that you suggest I jam it into (god only knows what's getting cut) is a tap out control deck. The mana ramp is there to get under their counters while they ponder on the first turn and we can land an important sphere or chalice effect. The Rishadan ports back this up (and they work SO well with Orb .....)
I can see that Orb is a strong card that does something we might need. However the simple fact is this deck does it already ! Tabernacle is not for killing creatures. It is not a removal spell. It is a Winter Orb Land. The opponent has to decide if keeping around her creature is more important than playing spells. It locks up their mana so that when we land a Stack their board is under developed. It is not a symetrical effect in our deck whereas Winter Orb would be (and probably more detrimental to us). If we land Orb late and try to lock them out what are we gaining that couldn't have been achieved with Ensaring Bridge or Crucible of Worlds or Tabernacle? It is a dead card early and a redundant card late.


Tldr on Winter Orb
1. Early on it stops us playing spells
2. Late on it locks up the board but so does everything else we do and those other spells can be played in early turns.
3. It fucks with our man lands and Rishadan ports


Sib

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Originally Posted by Sibelius

Winter Orb..... Winter Orb ..... Winter Orb......
Sib

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Good analysis overall, thanks! How are you guys feeling generally about putting 4x Leyline of the Void to the sideboard? In my meta I've been seeing an rise in Aggro Loam and other graveyard based decks and I think I need to hate them out somehow. Burn is also a thing here, so I have a couple Zuran Orbs and one Batterskull in my sideboard.