I agree with you completely. I was merely commenting on the Duress vs Dark Rit angle, thats all.
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I agree with you completely. I was merely commenting on the Duress vs Dark Rit angle, thats all.
That was me. I'm a stronger meta predictor and deck designer than a player, so please ignore my bad plays on camera - I was joking around with my opponents non-stop and tend to play loose when I'm chatty. I hated the main SnT as such an awkward out considering you're usually discarding early and 3 mana is huge. Zero ponder is not right, but I couldn't find room for it because all the other numbers are imo at minimum (3 daze, 3 seize) or already cheating (15 lands). 2 Ponder is "correct". I defend the 3/3 split as the balance of utility and explosiveness - also I was testing the charm so I maybe bumped it up one higher than it will eventually settle at. It was also a meta call because I'm from Milwaukee and the only thing Wisconsin players love more than combo decks are deathrite shaman.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anselm
The SB dark rits are for fair decks and other combo (which reanimator preys upon - please ignore my sneak and show loss as I kept bad hands, made mistakes, and had poor draws, the matchup is about 60/40 us).
Rits are not for tempo. City of Traitors to blank their tax counters, steel wind if you think they'll side in surgical so you can get a lifelink guy after they exile all your griselbrands, and maybe something else depending on the situation. It's easy to over sideboard in a deck this powerful. Furthermore they often wasteland my city, which makes me so happy. Thank you for letting me still cast all my spells.
Discard is indeed a problem, but you already have all the solutions maindeck. Daze, brainstorm, your own discard, izzet charm, and just drawing into the next reanimate card naturally work fine, even under pressure. Sometimes you lose, but there's no need to go crazy diluting a very very tight list with 4 uncastable cards that don't interact with your combo in a helpful way (like, say izzet charm does. If you really really want to stop discard, maybe you're playing against pox or something, just side in the flusterstorms.
I don't know if people were questioning the Jin-Gitaxis, but I maintain he deserves the spot over the 4th griselbrand (multiples always seem to clog up my hand and GY as it is). I very often need to draw cards without paying life and the 0 handsize for opponents is game over right away. I get jin over iona half the time vs combo, even, as I just need to force one thing and then they lose. He's not ideal vs swords decks with white mana untapped, mid game, etc, but that's the beauty of entomb. You run 3 griselbrands to draw+discard as a catch-all, but entomb gives you the power to silver bullet people. Turn 1+2 it's usually Jin/Iona, midgame it's Griselbrand, at 8 life late game and need to draw into force it's Jin again, midgame vs aggro it's Elesh, etc.
I like inkwell over the archangel because trample and faster clock.
Ashen Rider is indeed better than Angel of Despair, but why would you want to run that anyway? Sneak and Show sides out SnT vs us and Omni Tell vs Reanimator is already about the most miserably lopsided match they have. It's got a bad risk vs reward in the mirror, as you exhuming with Rider in your gy still wins them the game if they entomb in response, and 4 turns is painfully slow when you aren't drawing 7 a turn or shutting them off of black.
Cool to have you here!
I might consider something like -2 petal, -1 study, +2 ponder, +1 land? Or possibly go down to 2 charms.
I like Jin-Gitaxias, too.
City of Traitors is good against RUG, sure. Good to hear you didn't use rituals there. Still not convinced they're worth it against combo and fair decks, but I can see the point, though I suspect I'd want more discard there instead.
Leylines is mostly because discard leaves you so weak to graveyard hate. Also this deck is about the best leyline deck ever, with both brainstorm to put them back and lootings to discard them with if you draw them later on. Many other combo decks use them. I'll have to test some more, your argument has some merit too.
Sneak and Show is a better candidate for leylines sb, as it's got about 3-4 flex slots main, while we don't. They lose harder to discard than we do which is why the good lists are going the full 4 spell pierce main. I'm loathe to drop petals and have 3-4 ponder like I saw the lists had been running a month or so ago. It moves the deck more in the "durdle every turn pondering into brainstorms" direction which is why I quit playing Storm and after that various SnT decks. Something about brainstorming and seeing land ponder ponder sends me into a burning rage.
Reanimator, and specifically my list, but also I feel the deck as a whole, is built on a philosophy of greedy domination. It's also a control deck. The deck is designed to cause blowouts utilizing cards that are up-front killers while playing a tempo strategy. Have you noticed in your weeks of playing that the deck seems to topdeck savage compared to other combo? Big hot and cold streaks. Lots of sick rips, but also lots of 5 reanimate card hands with no guy in the yard. Why? Because it's running 20 combo cards and 4 brainstorms instead of 12 combo cards and 12 brainstorms. I'm simplifying slightly for effect, since careful study and charm are kind of dig, but they're desperate dig and card disadvantage, and you should always wait and not hope to draw the fatty, but I digress.
If you must add ponder, you push the philosophy more towards dedicated combo from control/combo, which tries not to have any topdeck at all that can't morph into something you want. Short term all-in bad topdecks like daze aren't quite as good here.
-3 daze, +1 land, +2 ponder would be how I'd do it, if I were offered money to have the correct amount of ponders main.
I'm not sure I understand. "My weeks of playing"? The deck being more of a control deck if it has more combo pieces and less manipulation? In my opinion, a deck like Omni-Tell is more of a control deck than Reanimator because it has more digging power and a later fundamental turn.
Sure, I've mostly played the deck with 0-2 petals and 3-4 ponders. And also, storm and omnitell are my other favorite decks at the moment, so we're coming from quite different angles here. Brainstorming into two ponders is the best feeling. :)
Congratulations on the finish. Charm does seem to be a good all round card for giving the deck what it wants discard/protection/creature kill all wrapped up in one package. I think I will give it a try. Are you going to write a Tournament report?Quote:
Originally Posted by Professor_Awesome
I just reread my 4am post and I could've been more clear haha. Reanimator is a tempo control deck with a combo win condition. At least in my opinion. When I'm not being a tool on camera, I play it like Team America, except instead of goyf or tombstalker, I reanimate a control creature like Iona, Jin-Gitaxis, Tidespout Tyrant, etc. All the reanimation targets need to have heavy control elements, which is why Ashen Rider is weak (inkwell notwithstanding, but it's a solution to a problem).Quote:
Originally Posted by Anselm
A typical turn one is thoughtseize you, daze your brainstorm that you respond with, play lotus petal, go. What a tempo turn! So much control and you still have 2 mana on turn 2 plus their card quality is completely ruined. This is very different than Omnitell's (or even storm's) t1 preordain, t2 ponder, shuffle, defensively spell pierce your discard. They primarily sculpt and we primarily disrupt.
Anyway I don't want to belabor my point, but it was late and I was talking about philosophies and shit and it needed clarification haha. As a final note, ponders over dazes isn't wrong, it just moves the deck a little closer to pure combo from combo/control, which isn't a bad thing, it's a personal preference thing. Ponder into Brainstorm, Lotus Petal, Ponder? I'm furious about that! haha
I did not take notes, but I can give some vague memories. Some stuff might be off.Quote:
Originally Posted by lyracian
R1: ???
G1 He wins the die roll. Turn one he goes underground sea, lotus petal, cracks for RED, young pyromancer. I find this strange, but I have the complete nuts, so whatever.
My turn I underground sea, lotus petal, careful study, pitch Jin-Gitaxis, Reanimate, end turn, draw 7, discard Griselbrand, land. Next turn I can animate dead and I have a force so I'm feeling good.
His turn two is Reanimate MY griselbrand, force my force. This was unexpected. The next 7 I draw off Jin includes no creatures or counters, and that's game.
G2&3 Now knowing what I'm playing against, I play better and win the next 2. He informs me he is NOT playing value reanimates in u/b/r delver, but a true hybrid. Cool.
R2: Mono Red Burn
Nice guy, gets stellar burn hands (I'm at 10 life on turn 2 both games), but Iona shuts him out twice. He's a good player and burn wasn't a bad choice with so much greedy 4-color durdley nonsense floating around.
R3: I think a grixis delver deck
G1 I Thoughtseize a brainstorm into turn 2 Jin-Gitaxis. He plays a bob then discards his hand. I swing for 5, make an Iona, and that's game.
G2 I have 3 cards in my library and he's at 5 life with a flipped delver out. I izzet charm his guy and swing for the win.
R4: Big Robots MUD
G1: Jin-Gitaxis discards his hand and I kill him with card advantage.
G2: Force of will the first lock piece, then Jin-Gitaxis discards his hand and I kill him with card advantage.
R5: Jeff hoogland camera match
G1 He wastelands me or something, but then I accidentally say 'okay' to a chalice at 1 with a force in hand. Like I can't explain why I would do this with that hand, it was bad. No takebacks and I become tilted for the rest of the match. He draws all 4 chalices and I just want the game to end.
G2 I make a tidespout tyrant due to his karakas. I izzet charm to bounce his knight and the four cards in question are petal, petal, charm, reanimate. What do you discard? petal+reanimate obviously because you need exactly 2 more turns of bounce and can't rely on having a target for Rean. You need to keep charm to draw into counters. I discard izzet charm, reanimate because I'm tilted and being retarded. I'm joking with him and having a good time but it's a cover for how embarrassed I am. I just bounce his guy until he dies.
G3 I keep a greedy 1 lander because I just want this match to end, get me off this camera. All I need is a reanimate card, easy enough to draw into with brainstorm and a few draw steps. He mulls to four and I feel really bad for him, especially when I thoughtseize turn one to take his thalia, making his hand: taiga, land, land. I brainstorm into stuff, entomb for almost Jin-Gitaxis, but I'm sick of making terrible plays so I choose inkwell since it blanks karakas, exiles, mazes which he might be playing, and kills very fast. Turns out he's got the maze, so good call there, and 7, 14, dead. I sympathize on his bad beats and get out of there, hoping to get it together next match.
R6: I think this was my non-camera feature match I played against Storm being played by a nice guy with a SWAGSWAGSWAG tshirt.
Memory's fuzzy, but I think G1 I'm on the play and t2 Jin-Gitaxis, draw no blue card for the force in my hand, and he kills me on his t2 with a very long string of plays involving past in flames into adnaus.
G2&3 I win as it's a good matchup for me, Jin discarding his hand is so brutal. Iona on black might've been game 3, can't recall. Game 1 was long and epic and it clouds my mind.
R7: nic fit
Not recalling these games but it was pretty bad for him. He had deathrite shaman and izzet charm was very useful. I think I won with Jin g1 and griselbrand g2.
R8: ID with the only other 7-0.
R9: ID with sneak and show guy.
Top 8: I play my worst matchup in the top 8, u/w/r delver.
G1: He keeps a weak hand and I kill him with griselbrand. I play it extra safe until I draw a second reanimate effect, then just go for it, turns out he's got stifles instead of counters.
G2: we're joking non-stop. He's very nervous and thinks this is a bad matchup for him. He asks me how to sb and I look at his decklist and tell him honestly the exact cards to sb and take out. I keep an obnoxious 5 card nothing hand and just draw discard until he wins, I give up on the game right about when I say 'keep'. This is uncharacteristic of me, but I'm not good on camera and I just want to be on the play. Plus we're joking about what the coverage guys are thinking and it's good fun.
G3: I'm still retarded, but I at least keep a decent hand, fetch right away so he can wasteland me, brainstorm in response, get some stuff, thoughtseize him, and discover that he kept a clunker almost worse than mine from last game. He was really, really leaning on that brainstorm still being there on his next turn. He ponders into nothing and I kill him with inkwell because I want the sure thing. While I'm entombing I pause on Jin-Gitaxis to troll the people watching and it totally works! Watching it later Saheen is like "no! no, not jin!" lol, anyway, he draws force one turn too late and shows me, which allows me to daze his geist so that when he forces the trample kills him exacties.
Top 4: I play a 60-40 matchup, Sneak and Show. His deck is super pretty and the decklist is nice. We're both excited because whoever wins gets to Force Oops, All Spells Twice and get a trophy.
G1: I mull to 5 and lose.
G2: I keep a bad 7, thoughtseize him to see a god hand. I say this looks good for you. I take Top and he says, "Going for the long game, huh?" I respond with, "No, but your hand is so good and mine is so bad, that my only chance is making you have to topdeck your next land and maybe you'll get as unlucky as I am. I draw total garbage with desperate draw+discard while he, indeed, gets unlucky with topdecks - but in a manner that still lets him slowly, slowly kill me with a hand filled with counters. I start artistically arranging my permanents in boredom so the people at home have something to watch besides an unlucky sneak attack player shuffling for 20minutes looking for a very elusive Emrakul. He even checks his sideboard for them haha
Top 2: Sneak vs Oops All Spells
G1: Counter the thing.
G2: Counter the thing. Trophy!
Props:
SCG for throwing one of these so close to my house.
Izzet Charm.
Jin-Gitaxis.
Redbull.
Mox Mania (madison store, legacy twice a week, believe it!).
Dodging death and taxes.
Slops:
Cameras.
My poor decisions.
No one believing me all day when I kept calling it Grixis Control.
Cheating on land count.
Great writeup man, enjoyed watching you play during the day. Even though you said you were nervous, you seemed to be having alot of fun with the deck, and just enjoying playing. It's nice to see after you run into so many serious opponents sometimes. Great job. (love the red splash also)
@Prof. Awesome: any changes you'd make? Aside from D&T, what do you think the deck's worst matchups are?
The main is right atm. Except for the fact that there really should be 16 land and 2 ponder but I'm not willing to drop anything else so yeah. My sideboard has always felt bad because reanimator is so strong that you're diluting it after 3 cards in. the biggest mistake I see Reanimator players making is they sideboard in way way too many cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
Worst matchups? Hmm. Aside from d&t which may be the worst, correctly built black maverick with thoughtseizes, heavy counterspell decks that also have discard, american delver, some of the reinvented u/r pyrodelver decks that will be popping up soon (since the card the deck was waiting for to be good has just been printed), and literally everyone with karakas that also has counters or discard.
Rest in peace isn't as big of a deal as people think. Surgical, flusterstorm, karakas are the best cards against us.
The main is right atm. Except for the fact that there really should be 16 land and 2 ponder but I'm not willing to drop anything else so yeah. My sideboard has always felt bad because reanimator is so strong that you're diluting it after 3 cards in. the biggest mistake I see Reanimator players making is they sideboard in way way too many cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
Worst matchups? Hmm. Aside from d&t which may be the worst, correctly built black maverick with thoughtseizes, heavy counterspell decks that also have discard, american delver, some of the reinvented u/r pyrodelver decks that will be popping up soon (since the card the deck was waiting for to be good has just been printed), and literally everyone with karakas that also has counters or discard.
Rest in peace isn't as big of a deal as people think. Surgical, flusterstorm, karakas are the best cards against us.
Is RIP not a big threat?
If you cant remove it with surgical or counter it, how do you play around it? Most reanimator runs only 2 show and tell in sb, which isnt much to rely on?
Not many decks run maindeck RiP, and most reanimator lists play 3-4 SnT post sb. There's also discard and bounce (although I'm not very fond of playing more than 1-2 bounce spells myself, as SnT is a better plan vs permanent-based GY hate and you can't dilute the deck very much by sideboarding). You can cut Daze in very grindy matchups or against very fast decks when on the draw, you can cut some reanimation and lootings when bringing in SnT, but everything else hurts. That's why I like having a bunch of Duresses in the board, as you have the space and they're a lot better than FoW against delver.
@Professor_Awesome
Congratulations on the finish. Thanks for the write up.
Red splash is interesting for Charm. I still like Show and Tell because it gets past any grave yard hate not just Shaman.
Has fetching for a nonbasic to have red mana cost you any games against Wasteland decks? I like having my 4 basics against Knight and Lands decks that can recur/get more wastelands.
Not sure on cutting Careful Study because of the turn 1/2 potential. Charm slows you down but gives you an answer to Deathrite.
How has Daze performed for you? Daze is amazing to protect your combo if going off turn 1 or two but I really start disliking Daze past turn 3 or 4 and I like it even more on the draw. It almost always got sideboarded out so I ended up cutting it for extra Thoughtseize and Show and Tell.
I am on 16 lands and 2 Ponder right now. I tried 15 lands and I seem to mulligan more then I like because of no land or 1 land hands. I like some number of Ponder to help find me some action.
I like Jin vs combo but vs anything else Griselbrand presents a more significant threat 7/7 life link is much better then 4/4 and can draw 7 immediately if hit with instant removal. 0 Handsize for opponents is great but it doesn't deal with whats on the board and if they kill Jin right away your sunk. 5/4 also dies much easier then 7/7 (Dismember, Fireblast, 2 Bolts etc). Might have to give the 1 of Jin a shot again since there is a decent ammount of combo in the North East as well.
My brother also keeps telling me Archangel is bad to run Inkwell because its a faster clock and better vs blue decks. Archangel wins races if they have less then 8 power on the board.
I agree on most of the bad match ups. Black Maverick I been testing with thoughtseize + Dark confidant + Knight with Karakas is pretty darn miserable. Counter Top Miracles with main deck Rest in Peace is pretty annoying as well. RUG/RUW delver is a match we don't want to see either.
Maindeck Grave Titan does help with Karakas decks somewhat but they do also tend to have Swords to Plowshares. Debating running Archangel instead but Grave Titan is pretty good versus Maze. Bad vs Tabernacle though.
@Abselm
I don't like cutting Petals because of the turn 1 potential of Land, Petal, Entomb/careful study + discard fatty, Reanimate or Turn 1-2 Show and Tell.
@Neffy
RIP is a big threat but only Counterbalance miracles runs it main deck. You do see it in UWb Stoneblade, UWr delver, and Rw Goblins sideboards though. I run 3 Show and Tell main deck with the 4th in the board to have an answer to Rest in Peace. I play against friends who run CounterTop RIP Miracles so must have a main deck answer. I also sideboard Engineered Explosives which can remove Rest in Peace.
I guess this is where Inkwell comes in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirika
I saw a mirror match yesterday where one had inkwell, the other karakas from SB. Completely useless and nothing for him to do.
@Professor_Awesome: I'm interested in how izzet charm performed for you, particullarly which mode you used the most and if it outweight adding a color at the deck.
I'm asking because I'm testing myself dimir charm as a removal for deathrite and additional counter against combo (each combo is sorcery speed), terminus and discard (although it comes down late). It can also bin a creature if you're in a pinch, or if you set up with brainstorm.
However I haven't had the opportunity to test because of work so this is theorycrafting.
Oooh. That's good. Dimir charm also spares us the third colorQuote:
Originally Posted by kingtk3
@Kirika
I like show and tell too, which is why I run 3 side. I just wanted something to do main deck that was useful vs the infinite shaman decks that wasn't as cumbersome as SnT main.
Specifically fetching for a red has not, but keeping a one-lander and fetching an underground sea to entomb with a backup daze has cost me a game to wasteland. The ratio of games lost to games won for being aggressive with duals is about 1:7. I do not respect the wasteland like I should, because I play to never go long. Sometimes I lose, sure.
Daze has been MVP not only for last tourney, but all the ones I've taken it to these past few months. I gotta run more than just 4x FoW to draw into with Griselbrand when I'm tapped out. I gotta turn one thoughtseize, pass, and daze their t1 ponder. Nearly most of all I need to daze their t2 thalia. Daze helps the hatebear matchups. Yeah, it's a bad topdeck sometimes, but it's a playstyle choice - it allows you to play control/tempo with a combo finish.
On Jin: sometimes the time is right, sometimes it's not, same as Iona. Don't underestimate the power of drawing 7 without paying life or your opponent discarding his hand. That's an 'or' on purpose, I've animated him just to draw 7 life-free knowing my opponent will kill him and not discard his hand. Fine, I needed cards and it bought me a turn of attacks. Sure, he's got downsides: swords before your endstep, only a 5/4, no evasion, can't draw 14, no lifelink, etc. Time and place.
RUG is a fine matchup. It's not so bad. That deck; sometimes they have everything, that's the nature of it. t1 delver, daze you, stifle you, waste you, force you, pierce you, gg. But I wouldn't group u/w/r delver with RUG. Swords to Plowshares takes an okay matchup and makes it Bad.
@kingtk3
My most used modes for izzet charm on the day were 1) draw discard 2) counter non-creature 3) pitch to force 4) shock. Each mode directly won me games.
Dimir charm is something we tested. My teammate chose dimir and I chose izzet. He likes it because you get to stay on u/b and it kinda does similar things. Sorcery is way worse than non-creature, obv. The sweet stuff to counter with izzet has been main deck RiP, Jace, liliana, relic of prog, force of will, etc. Sorcery only means your relegated to countering discard and wincons/ponders, which is nice, but not excellent. Setting up a dimir charm with brainstorm is about as bad as setting up a delver with a brainstorm - it feels like a waste of a powerful card, and often is. In a vacuum (i.e. with no Brainstorm) Izzet gives you the option of waiting with a guy in your hand or being desperate and hoping you draw into one, dimir charm let's you only do the latter.
I think it's a fine choice. It's like 3 Daze vs +1 land +2 ponder, what's it worth to you? I mull more, but keep more 'kill you plus all deez' blowout hands. A lot of times you actually need all deez to win, the way legacy hands can go. I like to blow people out with some risk. Your style may differ.
Is keeping it at 2 colors worth a worse utility card main? To me no, to my teammate yes. Maybe if there were some red cards in the SB it'd be more definitive. I'm currently trying out 3 young pyro in the side against the 18 counters main style decks that are popping up in my meta. Could be good. Sorta like Bob side in storm, in a way.
Reanimator blows. Just today I mulled to oblivion three times in a row. Literally none of the hands had the concrete ability to get a creature out by at worst turn 3. Why would anyone play this shit?