City, Monolith, go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Roopey
5 mana on your next turn. Please tell me you can win with that.
-Slay
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City, Monolith, go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Roopey
5 mana on your next turn. Please tell me you can win with that.
-Slay
You people need to stop proving me wrong. That does seem strong, yet I seriously doubt it will get unbanned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slay
Were there not plans to add Ideas Unbound to the SB? UU can be tricky but I've been messing around with it and it works out all right. I took out the Promise for it, because I really don't like that card at all.... 5 mana seems way too much. The effect is strong, but I don't often have 4 or 5 mana just sitting around.
EDIT: Well, further goldfishing has proved that Promise actually IS good and definitely worth it, but I've Wished for Ideas Unbound enough times to really want to fit it into the side. The biggest attraction to me is that if you Wish, LED without a Helm out, you can't cast IGGy or Diminishing Returns, but you CAN cast Ideas and still have that U open. That's come up enough times that I really want to find a Sorcery draw spell for 2 or 3, and Ideas really fits that well. Any ideas?
I find Night's Whisper being better in these situations. I did test Ideas, and I could never Wish for it. Night's Whisper on the other hand leaves a black floating in that situation, which in turn means you can actually cast the Ritual you draw. I know it draws 1 less card, but it can't be too busted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drkdstryer
Roop
Ideas is awful. I would much rather be paying RB to draw 2 than RUU to draw 3 in a deck that has more than a little difficulty producing more than 1 of any off colored mana, and in which doing so will jeapordize its odds of going off.
Anyway, just to reduce playtesting idiocy, I would say a hand that can go off with any amount of speed must look like one of the following:
wish+helm+decent mana (needing red obviously)
spoils+helm+decent mana (red, multiple black, and lots of life)
wish+lots of mana producers (red pre-diamond)
spoils+lots of mana producers (red pre-diamond, multiple black, and lots of life)
Tendrilsx2+lots of fucking mana
Tendrils+lots of cantrips+lots of fucking mana
I would say that unless you are clearly dead next turn, never try to go off with anything less than the above. If anyone thinks I missed a hand that has a reasonable chance of going off, please post it.
Edited By Ray D 3 on 1136686118
So do you use Desperate Research basically when you need a draw spell? I'm just trying to find the proper way to use it. I notice that it interacts with Burning Wish well, but you have to use the Wish to find it in the first place. I can't see any other interactions, and I don't see myself Wishing for it unless I'm really screwed and can't take life from Spoils. Or is that the use? Just curious as to your rationale, because I'm not sure how to use it as I've never Wished for it in a match yet. Honestly, I've never even used the card. So I think that adds to my uncomfortability with it. Just looking for some insight.
PS - In my testing, going off on Turn 3 is remarkably consistent and is actually easier than I first thought. Even with mediocre hands with just draw and mana, I can find outs. Great job, Roop and others.
Now it's time for: How would you play it?
Here's the deal. 3 cards in hand: 2x Night's Whisper and a Shadowblood Egg. A Bayou and a Tropical Island are tapped, and a Lotus Petal and Chromatic Sphere are untapped. You're at 7 Storm, and 2x Land Grant, a Sleight of Hand, a Chromatic Sphere, and a Dark Ritual are in the yard. BB is currently floating. You have just played a Sleight of Hand, and it reveals a Lotus Petal and a Spoils. Which do you take? Do you go with bonus mana, and rely on the 4 cards from the Night's Whispers to find a Wish or Tendrils? Or do you Spoils for something to continue the chain? If so, what do you Spoils for?
This situation just came up in playtesting, and I'm intrigued as to how you guys would play it, cause it reveals a bit about your style as well as shares knowledge :) Good morning, by the way :O
Good morning my ass, I have yet to sleep :P
My first reaction is to Spoils for Cabal Ritual - after using the Sphere you have Threshhold, giving you BBBBB and a Lotus Petal. Hopefully you have enough life to keep going with your Whispers. I'll reconstruct the hand and see what happens...
Well I managed to go off but I was down to popping two LEDs in response to Night's Whisper, for B and R, and got lucky and drew a Burning Wish FTW. I dunno, I think my play is OK.
At this point what you need is a little more mana and then Tendrils - you're only two storm and 2 mana short. I think the first thing you have to do is pop the Sphere no matter what you do. You need to find a Tendrils soon, so that means fueling the Whispers in your hand, and that means mana. Spoils for Cabal gives you +3 mana, and lets you use the Night's Whispers in your hand. Of the 4-of's remaining in your library, it seems the safest to go for.
Now here's a new question: how often do you guys use a Lotus Petal to get a turn 1 Helm? I find that's one of the best plays for my Petals. I really hate wasting the card, but the -1 on every spell makes up for the 1 mana you get for the Petal, right?
I don't completely agree with this. I believe that you should be able to turn almost any hand you get into a decent hand by turn 3, as long as you have lands. Those might be a good start on hands that you need to go off, but then again that's not even true. If you have to go off, most hands will turn into any of the listed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray D 3
Well, the first thing is you already made a mistake. You should have popped that Sphere to dig deeper before using Sleight. This way you have more of an idea of what you need to take with it because you have more cards in hand. Second, you should obviously take the Spoils and go for the Cabal Ritual like stated above. But still Pop the Sphere before you Spoils, this will let you either, take 1 less life or give you the card you wanted anyways and you can Spoils for something else. Either way it's the better play. Play the hand as it comes together from there.Quote:
Now it's time for: How would you play it?
Here's the deal. 3 cards in hand: 2x Night's Whisper and a Shadowblood Egg. A Bayou and a Tropical Island are tapped, and a Lotus Petal and Chromatic Sphere are untapped. You're at 7 Storm, and 2x Land Grant, a Sleight of Hand, a Chromatic Sphere, and a Dark Ritual are in the yard. BB is currently floating. You have just played a Sleight of Hand, and it reveals a Lotus Petal and a Spoils. Which do you take? Do you go with bonus mana, and rely on the 4 cards from the Night's Whispers to find a Wish or Tendrils? Or do you Spoils for something to continue the chain? If so, what do you Spoils for?
This situation just came up in playtesting, and I'm intrigued as to how you guys would play it, cause it reveals a bit about your style as well as shares knowledge Good morning, by the way
It really depends on the hand. If the hand is going to need the Petal for colored mana then I might keep it back, otherwise I really like playing Helm first turn. So, again, it comes back to just playing it over and over again until you get a feel of what works and what doesn't.Quote:
Now here's a new question: how often do you guys use a Lotus Petal to get a turn 1 Helm? I find that's one of the best plays for my Petals. I really hate wasting the card, but the -1 on every spell makes up for the 1 mana you get for the Petal, right?
Keep the questions coming,
Roop
I havesome questions:
Why do you use Swarm instead of Grid in side? Are both good options?
Why do you also use Echoing Ruin there? It also doesn't seem good
And the same for Desperate Research
And for the question asked before, I also use Petal for Helm many times, specially if you have a hand full of 'Eggs'
I would say that it may be possible to sculpt your hand into what you need, but since your cantrips suck and a wasteland would stop this process almost dead, I would not risk it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Roopey
As far as being able to go off with a hand worse than the ones I listed, I did not say it was impossible, but I did say it was not worth the risk unless you were certain to die next turn.
I would say that it may be possible to sculpt your hand into what you need, but since your cantrips suck and a wasteland would stop this process almost dead, I would not risk it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Roopey
As far as being able to go off with a hand worse than the ones I listed, I did not say it was impossible, but I did say it was not worth the risk unless you were certain to die next turn.
I dunno about Grid vs Swarm, I have noone to test against while on break :\Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullclamping
Echoing Ruin is a sorcery - you can wish for it. Desperate Research is a decent tutor for what it does. Digging 7 cards deep for 1B sounds pretty good to me (althought I rarely Wish for it, it's come up before).
I have never actually thought about Grid, it should probably be tested.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullclamping
Echoing Ruin is amazing. It destroys 2 Chalices if they are set for 0 and 1, which has happened. It is easily the best option when it comes to sorcery-speed artifact removal.
As for Desperate Research, I haven't been to happy with at all either. The fact that you Wish for it means it must be good, but it is only good half of the time. Which I don't like at all. Again, I'll be testing new replacements.
Roop
I think Grid is better, basically for its colorless mana
but there's one thing that gives points to both, because if you played a Helm on first game, a W deck will take Disenchants from side, and get StP on SB, so Swarms will have a choice to protect us
but in other matchups, withut artifact removal or when we haven't played Helm, they will have creature kill, so Grid will be better
what do you, the others, think about it?
and also another question:
has anybody tested the deck against any deck with discard?
it seems to be a bad matchup, because you show your hand to a 100% Therapy, and Duress also affects you, and nothing to say for Hymn/Gerrard's Veredict...
Wishing for your own disruption sounds like a plan, though there are no Pikula/other disruption decks in my meta to test against. I certainly think the sideboard needs an overhaul, but I'm really not sure what to put in yet. And no one else seems confident in that either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullclamping
After some consideration, I still believe that Swarm is better than Grid. Most people will side in artifact removal for Helm while siding out there creature removal. Banking on this, you should be able to side in Swarm without problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skullclamping
I have tested against Deadguy quite thoroughly actually. The matchup is around 6-4 in Nausea's favor. Most hands you will be able to outrace the discard, and other hands you can go off with just a Spoils or Wish. There are still the hands where you can't get in there fast enough, so you will lose those, but you should win the majority of the matches.
Was this in referance to the Nausea SB or the Deadugy SB?Quote:
I certainly think the sideboard needs an overhaul, but I'm really not sure what to put in yet. And no one else seems confident in that either.
On that note, what does everyone think about Infernal Contract taking the Desperate Research spot in the board? I haven't tested it, but it seems kinda decent.
The Nausea board; we all seem to agree that PoP, Desperate Research, and Firebolt are still experimental. And I have found the Therapy underwhelming. Our problem is that these are useful answers for certain gamestates, however, and we have nothing to take their place. At least that's the way I see it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Roopey
EDIT: Forgot to address Infernal Contract. I think that the original rationale for dropping it was correct, it is unaffected by Helm, and the life loss in conjunction with Spoils and Night's Whisper might be rough. Just my .02c. However, it is exactly Cabal/Dark Ritual or cracked LED mana, which happens in response to Wish very often.
I've been running the Infernal Contract in my wishboard for a while in testing now, since I got the idea from the janky storm (what's that thing called) and I've found that it gets wished for enough that it is worth the inclusion. The life loss never usually becomes too big a deal, because you're never going to topdeck it. You only get it when *you* want it, so sometimes, yes, it won't be an option because then you won't be able to Night's Whisper or Spoils at all, but when you've just missing the Tendrils, or one or two more cards for the storm count, a Wish for Contract, popping an LED in response, or using Ritual mana, will usually get you one of the cards you're looking for, or enough gas to find one. The fact is, it can't kill you unless you're at one, and if you're going to win this turn, that's not often a big deal.
I'm for it, but make your own decisions from testing :)
Promise of Power is better than Contract I think, and as Roopey (and also me) said, Swarm is a bit better than Grid for the sideboard choice of our opponent, but I think this is more about the metagame, and see what decks have or not too creature kill