[Deck] Belcher

Well it really depends, I can usually beat control decks like Turboslaver, either by winning before they get a null rod into play or boarding in oxidizes (or crashes, I can't make up my mind). The U/x Control decks are hit or miss, mostly miss though. The problem is FoW obviously, and 2 mana counterspells to a lesser extent, though I have been able to win pre-board a couple of times before. Post board, I board in xantid swarms and welders for desperate ritual and 2 cabal rituals. This makes the matchup somewhat better, but it is still a less than positive matchup. My win percentage I would say is around your percentages, but I haven't been keeping track, really.

Also, how has tainted pact been working out for you? I can understand it's utility in a deck with few lands, but how often does it just fuck up? And also, I would honestly take out some of the tutors, I have never really needed more than one in my opening hand, and 11 gives you more than ample opportunity of getting one in the opening hand (You will draw on average 1.8 tutors and/or belchers in each opening hand).

Seething song for me has been just incredible, it's basically like another dark ritual for the deck, because it nets you 2 mana upon casting and though it does cost 3 mana, you will be getting up to three mana if you ever hope on casting the belcher.

Can you explain why you'd run Crash when you're only runing 1 mountain? Wouldn't Shattering Pulse, Oxidize or Artifact Blast be better? Artifact blast would be nice against the mirror.

Pact works alright, pretty much like I wrote earlier. No I won't go to 11 tutors because 15 is more consistent / effective for me and Seething Song has sucked for me so I'm not running it. I can cast Belcher just fine, I don't have to 'hope' to do it. ???

Oh last thing, I really don't care. I only posted my build because you asked, don't expect stuff to change magically because anyone suggested squat.



Edited By Artowis on 1098517060

how hard is it to get the white for the tutors? I've been pondering the idea, but am not ballsy enough for it. Hence I play 2 land.

the build i play uses 4x Pentad Prisms in lieu of 4x Vineyard. Playing Enlightened Tutor wouldn't be difficult to do between the pentads and the chromatics.

I had debated it myself but hadn't really thought about specifically how to really abuse it. The fact it doesn't go in-hand kind of hurts, but it could potentially be a nice turn 2 kill. There's always the possibility of using a chromatic sphere (you'd need two spheres if the sphere is your source for white) to draw the belcher you just put on top. just a thought...

Has anyone thought about chalice of the void for two?? as a better matchup against control and decks packing null rod??

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Originally Posted by R4tX0r

Has anyone thought about chalice of the void for two?? as a better matchup against control and decks packing null rod??

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If you are getting four mana you want to do something else with it. Like playing Belcher or getting Belcher. ALso the best counterspell is FoW which is five mana. SO you will never stop FoW.

I've been playtesting this deck quite a bit, and have come to the conclusion that the deck itself needs to be tooled from the maindeck to fight control, and not rely on the sideboard (or a little 0/1 scrub, for that matter). Out of several matchups, especially in tournaments, my only issue about the deck is if I see blue mana hit on the opponents side of the board. The deck itself can combo off either turn 1 or turn 20, as long as I'm not at 0 life, nothing else matters.

The deck's consistency level with Gamble is complete and utter shit, unless of course you feel like relying on Welder. My current deck might frighten a ton of people, but it's basically putting in a little of everything to test out which tutors and mana sources I've liked best. This is in no way a complete deck, as I've still considered it far from narrowing down which tutors I like better.

Mana:
2 Tinder Wall
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Land Grant
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Land:
1 Bayou
1 Taiga

Protection:
4 Goblin Welder
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy

Tutors:
4 Spoils of the Vault
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Plunge Into Darkness
2 Desperate Research

Kill:
4 Goblin Charbelcher

Sideboard: (Subject to change, currently geared fully vs control)
4x Defense Grid
4x Xantid Swarm
4x Naturalize
3x Oxidize

There's obviously going to be some criticism, but I'll give reasoning for choices:

Birds of Paradise- Much better than running the other 2 Tinder Wall and 2 Eladamri's Vineyard. Against control matchups, my opponents have almost always gotten more use out of the Vineyard than I have. Turn 1 Fact or Fiction followed by Chalice for 0/1 is never a good thing to run into. Plus, with the deck technically going 4 color with white's addition of Enlightened Tutor, it was just a much better choice. *Replaced 2 Tinder Walls and 2 Vineyard

Duress/Cabal Therapy- These have been considered staples of decks packing black against control, so there's no reason why this deck shouldn't pack them as well. It's been doing very little harm packed maindeck, as opposed to the amount of hand disruption it's worked against control players, as well as slowing down early threats from aggro/other combo (Survival, or other useful stuff I can't deal with easily when it hits table, etc). *Swapped out 1 Duress to add in Therapy, and can't remember what the other 2 Therapy replaced.

Enlightened Tutor- Arguably my favorite of the tutors. There's no reason the deck can't pack this card, with the 8 ways of getting white mana (Birds and Spheres), and using upkeep to topdeck your win condition, counting a majority of the targets of the tutors are artifacts anyways. *Replacement for Gamble's 1 and 2.

Desperate Research- Overall much more useful than Tainted Pact, even though it's a sorcery. Being able to possibly pull out multiples of the card you want (as opposed to one), or just digging 7 cards at its worst, it's going to be useful in either case. *The replacement for Gamble's 3 and 4.

Plunge Into Darkness- This was originally my replacement for Tainted Pact, and with Tinder Wall, and Birds, it's got it's uses for backup if you can afford the extra black to Entwine it. Roughly hits the same depth as Desperate Research, as I typically can put 5-8 life into it without much worry.

Spoils of the Vault- This one quite possibly might be the one getting cut down, if not just cut out. My deck wants consistency, not rediculous speed. I haven't needed a tutor when going off on turn 1, and seldomly are any needed. Not to mention with the risk of bad card placement, while I've only died to a "suicide" hit of 20 twice in all the tournaments I've tested it at, there's been many times it's dug 12-15 cards and left me with less than 20 in the deck, while removing my Taiga.

The deck really has no big worries other than it's obvious discontent for a control matchup, and if any other decks try to side in Chalice or Null Rod, it's got it's ways of getting them out of the way. I prefer to go with a more steady and slower rate against control, rather than forcing myself to try to bust out on turn 1 or 2, and then just sit there and watch myself die slowly to getting pummeled by Factories and Faeries, or a Tog laughing in my face. Since the deck doesn't try to rely on Spoils as much as the other tutors, I get a lot more control over my life total.

Also: Note that this deck is still very, very early in developmental stages. While I do say that this has been much better to me in a relatively control dominated area, it's in no way an answer to it's obvious problems with facing decks like Landstill, U/W Control, or Tog. Before you flat out say a card is horrible, or has no use, playtest it a couple of times. My average tutor count is roughly 10-12, so there's obviously room for changing things around. I've gone over the deck 4 times with various revisions, and this one so happens to be the current that I'm happiest with the results. Once I narrow down the tutors to what I feel are optimal, I'll post a finalized version.

Hey Guys... I have been thinking about the deck a bit and I thought it could use some decent draw.

I pretty much rulled out the use of blue in this deck because of how tight the mana base already is.

so.......

I found a card that seems to fit fairly well in the mana base if you are running Cabal and Dark Ritual.

Its Necrologia. This card seems perfect for a deck that can produce lots of mana and can abuse the graveyard.

I havent tested it, but i would like to know what everone thinks... If its not right for this deck, it still seems that it could be very broken in something else.


Edit: to prevent a double post

Has anyone tested Winds of Change?

It seems like the only thing that is holding the deck back is its susceptability to hate and lack of consistancy. I think Winds of Change may be able to help with the consistancy of the deck by drawing into the Tutor or belcher that is needed to go off...

Granted this is no Wheel of Fortune, its actually card disadvantage... but it does provide a good amount of digging power that could be usefull.

Just trying to help out,
Will Setzer

This deck is now considered a DTB.

I don't about Winds of Change because it would seem very bad to refill the hand of a control deck with fresh cards. Plus to really get a lot of power out of Winds of Change. You'd have to have at least 4 or 5 cards to really get advantage out of it. So, really I see it as a way to mulligan first turn into a new hand which could be facilitated by using Serum Powder . . but I don't think anyone would use that.

So, I really don't know about Winds of Change. I really don't think it would be optimal in Belcher.

Winds of Change is basically a better serum visions. Like Indy said, Winds can either help you or hurt you when going against control or any other deck. Your opponent, if playing a blue or some other control deck, can get something good, or complete jank, as the same goes for you.

But on needing 4-5 cards for advantage, you could have a 3 card hand and it can be complete garbage and use Winds to get an almost game winning draw. Like the deck goes, you either win, or get completely shat on by it by getting bad draws, or death by the infamous Spoils.

Just a comment...

This friggin' deck has been showing up in San Diego (2-land Belcher). There are times it goes off on turn one, but usually it either kills the opponent -or- it's handler by turn 3. It's so fast that even with 4 Null Rods in my deck I lost to it. In fact, even with Null Rod in hand I lost to it.

It's been placing in the top 3 out here every time it's run. "Jerry" started using it, and even though he wasn't accustomed to the deck, he was rolling over his opponents.

Dave.

Can you post a decklist of the version that is doing so well?

[color=#000000:post_uid2]Hmmm well here goes my first post :D . Well I can probably say this is the best combo deck evar! Well I am not sure how much I like Birds of Paradise in this deck, so here goes my list without Birds of Paradises.

4xLotus Petal
4xLion's Eye Diamond
4xChrome Mox
4xChromatic Sphere
4xGoblin Charbelcher

4xSpoils of the Vault
3xPlunge Into Darkness

4xDark Ritual
4xLand Grant
4xElvish Spirit Guide
4xTinder Wall
4xCabal Ritual

4xDuress
4xGoblin Welder

1xBayou
1xTaiga

I think that is 57 cards. I think there can be an alternative besides BoP. Plz help.

I think those spaces may go toward more protection meaning Cabal Therapy. More accel would mean Seething Song which is decent. I think we need the extra accel because our protection is mostly in teh sideboard.[/color:post_uid2]

Hey!

I found some cards that may help:

Thran Turbine
Card type: Artifact
Casting cost: 1
Oracle text: At the beginning of your upkeep, you may add up to 2 to your mana pool. You can't spend this mana to play spells.

(can be used to pay the belchers ability)


Aether Vial
Card type: Artifact
Casting cost: 1
Oracle text: At the beginning of your upkeep, you may put a charge counter on Æther Vial.
T: You may put a creature card with converted mana cost equal to the number of charge counters on Æther Vial from your hand into play.

Aether Vial could be used to toss out uncounterable welders/xantid swarm/BoP or anyother 1 cc creaters.


hopw this helps

Neither 1 of those cards is good for this deck.

Thran Turbine doesn't net you anything. Though it can allow you to activate your belcher During your next turn, in most cases you could probably do that anyway. Falling back on this card gives your opponent an entire turn to just kill the belcher.

Vial is only good in creature based decks, or ones that can gain some advantage by their inclusion. This deck, though all the creatures are 1cc is not creature based, and will watch the free uncounterable creatures get owned by removal anyway.

Plus neither 1 gets you something immediately, so you would have to cut a car that does give you something immediately in order to add these slow 'options.'

My build for Belcher right now is pretty much the same as DeathwingZEROs, except instead of three Cabal Therapy I play with three Pentad Prisms.

I've been thinking of cutting the fourth Spoils of the Vault for a third Desperate Research, or maybe even another Enlightened Tutor.

How has everyone's build worked for them, so far, concerning the ratios between mana-tutor-protection?

This is my first post on this site. I have been testing my own version of this. I run one land to help reduce the odds of misbelching. This is the build I use.

-Lands
1 Bayou
-Creatures
4 Tinder Wall
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
-Spells
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Plunge into Darkness
4 Eladamri's Vineyard
4 Land Grant
-Sideboard
4 Defense Grid
4 Naturalize
4 Ghastly Demise
3 Xantid Swarm

Ghastly Demise is purely for Meddling Mage. All you need is to get 2 cards to the grave. With this deck, that isn't a problem.
Naturalize is obviously for Null Rod, Chalice of the Void, etc. I use this and not Oxidize for stuff like Solitary Confinement. You need to be prepaired in either case.
Has anyone thought of Regrowth? It's not banned.
I use Defense Grid over Xantid Swarm because Xantid Swarm does not have good synergy with Eladamri's Vineyard.
Duress/Cabal Therapy reduce the odds of having your spells countered and you know what they may or may not have in their hands.
Plunge into Darkness and Spoils of the Vault are the best two tutors for this deck. They both get the cards you need THAT turn and remove other cards (such as an extra land if you are playing with two lands). I seldom lose to Spoils of the Vault or Plunge into Darkness but it does happen. It adds to the randomness of this deck.

Now I have read the previous posts about other additions and I have a few suggestions:
Goblin Welder-This is a great card to consider. The only bad part is that this is a creature and so many decks have creature removal. It makes Lion's Eye Diamond a better card in this deck. After you drop all of your other spells, sack the Lion's Eye Diamond and use Goblin Welder to get back Goblin Charbelcher
Birds of Paradise-This is the potential replacement for Eladamri's Vineyard. They each have one advantage over the other. One produces mana of any color while the other produces two green mana. They both take two turns to fully utilize. Eladamri's Vineyard provides mana to both players (most often results in mana burn) and Birds of Paradise is subject to creature removal.
Wall of Roots/Wall of Blossoms-These are great blockers which is good against aggro decks. Wall of Roots provides mana and Wall of Blossoms provides an extra card. Or in some cases they are fodder for Chrome Mox.
Tainted Pact-This card should not be used. This may get the card you need and it probably won't. For the same amount of mana, you can use Plunge into Darkness to get the card you want of another card you can use. I personally prefer Plunge into Darkness over Tainted Pact but I feel Tainted Pact would not be as dangerous but may be less consistant in getting what you want.
Reverent Silence-Sure they get the life gain but you remove ALL enchantments from your threat zone.

I think this deck should just stick to two colors.
Goblin Welder, Gamble, Seething Song, and Desperate Ritual are obvious choices to splash red in. Taiga and Crash may be added as well. Orcish Lumberjack is kind of nice with Taiga. Did anyone consider something like Cave-In for Meddling Mage and the like? Pyroblast, Red Elemental Blast, or even all around counter like Molten Influence might help.
I really don't think blue has good synergy with this deck either. Meditate, Sleight of Hand, Brainstorm, Serum Visions, Opt, Impulse, or even Force of Will could be added. This can always be made into a Control Belcher to reduce the odds of inconsistancy.
White, in my opinion, may be the best extra color to splash. Enlightened Tutor, Sword to Plowshares, Tithe, Orim's Chant, or Argivian Find are the cards to consider. Abolish may answer some enchantment/artifact threats you face.

When I play this deck, people ask me why I do not run Taiga. Why should you run Taiga if you are only playing two colors like I am? It does not provide the mana you need and you do not need the extra damage. When I activate Goblin Charbelcher, less than 10% of the time do I reveal a land that I did not get via Land Grant appears before I reach 20 damage. Of course, odds are they have taken mana burn due to Eladamri's Vineyard.

So far, none of the decks I have read about have nothing to remove Meddling Mage other than Swords to Plowshares. Cabal Therapy comes close, but I would not name that card FIRST when using it. Ghastly Demise is cheap, does not offer life gain, and only requires two cards to be in your graveyard. How easy is it to get two cards in the grave? Rhetorical question.

One last statement before I finish this post. Auriok Salvagers plus Lion's Eye Diamond is infinite mana. This can be extremely useful if you are using Welder and you have tapped out and you only have Lion's Eye Diamond in play with not enough mana to activate it. I know this card is a bit slow, but it is definately something to consider.

I hope my thoughts have helped in deciding what to draft into your deck. Have fun with this. By the way, I've been testing my version for quite some time now. I win about 85% of my games, lose 10% to my own cards, and I am actually beaten 5% of the time. I just built a Zero Land Belcher and it works great. Well, most of the time anyways. I had 50 Goldfish games and all of them I won within the first three turns without mulligan. I think it was 8 first turn kills, 17 second turn kills, and 25 third turn kills.

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I think that is 57 cards. I think there can be an alternative besides BoP. Plz help

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Pentad Prism. If you're playing Welders (especially 4 of them, like you do), then Pentad Prism = Awesome. PP's let you cycle off those chromatic spheres and effectively "save for later" the mana generated by them. Same goes for a turn 1 Tinder Wall -> Goblin Welder with R floating. eg: opening hand: ESG, Welder, Tinder Wall, Land Grant, Pentad Prism, other stuff.
Remove ESG for G, play Tinder Wall. Cast Land Grant for Bayou. Play Bayou, sac Wall for RR, play Welder, use R and B (from Bayou) to play Pentad Prism.

One thing I noticed tho -- without some more tutoring or card draw you will be more likely to burn out of fuel. There have been a number of decent suggestions -- I've personally been a fan of Gamble..but it's usefulness is debatable (and heavily dependent on your comfortability with risk).