Cheating or clever use of the rules?

I just had something happen regarding a braids trigger on cockatrice. I implicitly told my opponent at my end step that on his next upkeep, braids would trigger, and he would have to sacrifice a land/art/crit. When it came to his turn, he glosses over his upkeep and skips straight to draw before I could even type (you guys know how fast phase changes can happen with buttons). When I explained that he missed the trigger, he told me that I was the one that missed the trigger and that it was my fault it wouldn't resolve :frown:. I didn't ragequit until he pulled the exact same thing the next turn. I know this doesn't apply to a tournament setting, but the rules change has really changed how games are playing out online for sure. People are far more willing to cheat and then just call you bad afterward as opposed to actually dealing with the cards you present.

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

I just had something happen regarding a braids trigger on cockatrice. I implicitly told my opponent at my end step that on his next upkeep, braids would trigger, and he would have to sacrifice a land/art/crit. When it came to his turn, he glosses over his upkeep and skips straight to draw before I could even type (you guys know how fast phase changes can happen with buttons). When I explained that he missed the trigger, he told me that I was the one that missed the trigger and that it was my fault it wouldn't resolve :frown:. I didn't ragequit until he pulled the exact same thing the next turn. I know this doesn't apply to a tournament setting, but the rules change has really changed how games are playing out online for sure. People are far more willing to cheat and then just call you bad afterward as opposed to actually dealing with the cards you present.

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This is why I wrote off MWS/Cockatrice/etc a long time ago.

It was bad enough when the person on the other end would just spam the "OK" button when I was 'taking too long'. It's like -- jesus, I just put this fscking deck together, my bad if I'm not just pooping my cards onto the table. I'm not slow playing but I'm not playing speed chess here.

But now, hey it's cool to know that it's implicitly a good opportunity to skip shitty upkeep triggers. What's the incidence of this happening IRL - people drawing their draw step card and arguing the opponent "missed their upkeep trigger"? That seems like a thing that would come up a lot.

Announcing you'll have effects during your end step is a crappy way to play Magic, but it's something I know I used to do against fast-drawers. "End my turn but I have upkeep effects." That's a window for end of my turn things to occur, and while Braids is kind of a no-shit scenario where having it in play is already a tell, it may not always be that simple. What if I need priority for some reason? Do I want to announce that at the end of my turn? That's dumb, but fast players apparently want to play the game that way. So now, for some people, the upkeep is .2 seconds long. Awesome.

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Originally Posted by Jankwolf

I've been following this thread for a bit now and the solution to dealing with all of this is very simple. I'll explain my view with cheating first though. To me cheating or using cheap tricks, for one, lacks honor. Second, cheating to me is akin to stealing. I have a very straight up, "in your face" way of life. I'm upfront in everything I do and despise those who aren't. The judges only control what's in their little arena and that's it. I've used my way of dealing with things when I have an opponent that resorts to going to such an extent to win. Has anyone on this site ever heard of a straight ass whoopin? To me, you cheat, it's an open invitation to get your teeth kicked in outside of whatever venue you're in. I don't mind losing and I will never use tricks or cheat to prevent myself from losing. It lacks honor and secretes disrespect. Just a small view from an Infantry Soldier.

"I didn't come here looking for a fight but if you're gonna bark boy then ya better show some bite."

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Watch out folks, internet tough guy on the loose!

Although I don't agree with Jankwolf's views, he does bring up a good point that there are those that will physically assault you over a (perceived) slight. You thinking that a physical fight is an irrational and unreasonable response to cheating won't stop the other guy from stomping your face in if that's his perogative. And when there's money on the line (which often there is), then it doesn't really become so irrational and unreasonable.

Cheating at poker and other playing card games can and have resulted in physical confrontations. Magic isn't really that much different.

Opponents: tilt at your own risk

What a weird thread this has become.

Look at the shit we say about our own scene. People having their backpacks full of cards stolen. Players playing contrary to the rules, whether with a judge's apparently permission or no. People promising to kick someone's ass if they suspect the opponent of cheating. And then the cautionary word-to-the-wise: "welp. you should know it's a possibility that people will (cheat? have adverse reactions?) before you go play Magic, be prepared".

Sometimes I'm glad I can't afford to play competitive Legacy anymore, or that the scene largely ceased to exist around here anyway. I don't want to deal with people changing the rules of the game in spite of knowing better, and I definitely don't want someone talking about kicking my ass because I didn't live up to their expectations of the outcome of a match. If the worst problem I have next Sunday is that some senseless 13 year old doesn't understand the dynamics of EDH well enough to know that playing that Terminate on my Kaalia means the dickhead in Chair #4 just wins next turn because I can't drop Iona naming one of their colors… yeah. That's totally fine. Deal.

We only talk about "community" in terms of sheer numbers, it seems. People work to get Eternal players to turnout, in some places they work their asses off. If Eternal Magic is so desperate for new blood that players just tell everyone to show up - and then say to them, "Now that you're here, guard your shit; we've had a real problem with thieves lately, watch out for that kid because she cheats like a sum-bitch, and don't say the wrong thing to that guy because he used to be a Marine sniper so we just give him a wide berth…"

Lesson learned - the drunken driver has the right of way.

The goal isn't to sow optimism or pessimism, just realism. The goal is to remember that you're not among friends, you're among people. And people are complex and unpredictable.

To answer your metaphor, the drunk driver doesn't have the right of way, their justice is coming for them, but until then, it's 2am and the bars just let out, double check before you move through the 4-way stop. Everything has good guys and bad guys and Magic is no different.

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Originally Posted by PirateKing

The goal isn't to sow optimism or pessimism, just realism. The goal is to remember that you're not among friends, you're among people. And people are complex and unpredictable.

To answer your metaphor, the drunk driver doesn't have the right of way, their justice is coming for them, but until then, it's 2am and the bars just let out, double check before you move through the 4-way stop. Everything has good guys and bad guys and Magic is no different.

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This. The trigger policy is that a trigger is not missed until a player demonstrates that they were not aware of it. If your oppnent tries to skip an upkeep trigger by moving through their draw step quickly, call a judge. That is not acceotable behavior and we will deal with it. The point of the rules changes over the last few years has been to decrease the amount of rules gaming that occurs. The philosophy of the judge program has been, is and will be goi g forward that Magic should determine the winner of a game of Magic.

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Originally Posted by TsumiBand

People promising to kick someone's ass if they suspect the opponent of cheating. And then the cautionary word-to-the-wise: "welp. you should know it's a possibility that people will (cheat? have adverse reactions?) before you go play Magic, be prepared".

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If you cheat at a game where real money is on the line, then yes, people have been known to get violent and throw down. Cheating when money is at stake is no different than if you talk a ton of shit to someone's face and steal money out of their wallet; you're disrespecting them and you're stealing money that isn't yours.

Here's the thing, Cheaters thrive on your inability to act. If they're caught, and you can't actually affect them, then they have nothing to fear. Physical violence is about the only thing that makes sense in a moment like that, when you've caught someone stealing your money. I remember a guy snuck 2 strangleroot geist into his draft deck at my school, and I lost to double games 1 and 3. I looked into it, and we concluded that he'd snuck the cards in (3 copies in his deck, players next to him never saw 1), but he'd left and ran away. I lost that round, and my 12 dollars on the draft. If I ever saw that kid again, you'd bet that I'm gonna put him on the ground. Not gonna break a bone, or punch him in the face, but I would physically impose myself on him. Sometimes kids like that just need a good scare, and they learn not to impulsively cheat.

I guess the intent of my previous post wasn't understood. So, please allow me the time to clarify. My intent from that posting was intended for more than just Magic. That's a life lesson and a very hard one to learn at times. It was beaten into me growing up to respect those around you, to be honest and have integrity. These are basic principles that any person, no matter where they come from, can live by. It stems from more than my five years in the Army. It comes from a belief that if I have respect, honor and integrity then hopefully people will witness this. Then maybe, just maybe, they emulate it in the future. As far as being disrespected, I give a lot of chances to people and generally I'm very polite about trying to get them to stop. But everyone can agree that a line must be drawn. If it comes down to it, yes, I will "throw down". You can flame me all you want over the posting, I don't care. A few of you will read this and understand where I'm coming from.

Other than that, I wish everyone on the Source an early Happy Thanksgiving and best of wishes to you all and your families.

-Ross

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Originally Posted by TsumiBand

What a weird thread this has become.

Look at the shit we say about our own scene. People having their backpacks full of cards stolen. Players playing contrary to the rules, whether with a judge's apparently permission or no. People promising to kick someone's ass if they suspect the opponent of cheating. And then the cautionary word-to-the-wise: "welp. you should know it's a possibility that people will (cheat? have adverse reactions?) before you go play Magic, be prepared".

Sometimes I'm glad I can't afford to play competitive Legacy anymore, or that the scene largely ceased to exist around here anyway. I don't want to deal with people changing the rules of the game in spite of knowing better, and I definitely don't want someone talking about kicking my ass because I didn't live up to their expectations of the outcome of a match. If the worst problem I have next Sunday is that some senseless 13 year old doesn't understand the dynamics of EDH well enough to know that playing that Terminate on my Kaalia means the dickhead in Chair #4 just wins next turn because I can't drop Iona naming one of their colors… yeah. That's totally fine. Deal.

We only talk about "community" in terms of sheer numbers, it seems. People work to get Eternal players to turnout, in some places they work their asses off. If Eternal Magic is so desperate for new blood that players just tell everyone to show up - and then say to them, "Now that you're here, guard your shit; we've had a real problem with thieves lately, watch out for that kid because she cheats like a sum-bitch, and don't say the wrong thing to that guy because he used to be a Marine sniper so we just give him a wide berth…"

Lesson learned - the drunken driver has the right of way.

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Amen!

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Originally Posted by TsumiBand

What a weird thread this has become.

Look at the shit we say about our own scene. People having their backpacks full of cards stolen. Players playing contrary to the rules, whether with a judge's apparently permission or no. People promising to kick someone's ass if they suspect the opponent of cheating. And then the cautionary word-to-the-wise: "welp. you should know it's a possibility that people will (cheat? have adverse reactions?) before you go play Magic, be prepared".

Sometimes I'm glad I can't afford to play competitive Legacy anymore, or that the scene largely ceased to exist around here anyway. I don't want to deal with people changing the rules of the game in spite of knowing better, and I definitely don't want someone talking about kicking my ass because I didn't live up to their expectations of the outcome of a match. If the worst problem I have next Sunday is that some senseless 13 year old doesn't understand the dynamics of EDH well enough to know that playing that Terminate on my Kaalia means the dickhead in Chair #4 just wins next turn because I can't drop Iona naming one of their colors… yeah. That's totally fine. Deal.

We only talk about "community" in terms of sheer numbers, it seems. People work to get Eternal players to turnout, in some places they work their asses off. If Eternal Magic is so desperate for new blood that players just tell everyone to show up - and then say to them, "Now that you're here, guard your shit; we've had a real problem with thieves lately, watch out for that kid because she cheats like a sum-bitch, and don't say the wrong thing to that guy because he used to be a Marine sniper so we just give him a wide berth…"

Lesson learned - the drunken driver has the right of way.

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You are looking at the worst examples and assuming the whole of the community is like them. Don't let that kind of thinking push you away from competitive Legacy, or tournament Magic in general. Most people are nice and know the rules and won't try to shiv you in the back with a counterfeit dual land when the judge isn't looking.

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This is why I wrote off MWS/Cockatrice/etc a long time ago.

But now, hey it's cool to know that it's implicitly a good opportunity to skip shitty upkeep triggers. What's the incidence of this happening IRL - people drawing their draw step card and arguing the opponent "missed their upkeep trigger"? That seems like a thing that would come up a lot.

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I've always told my opponent at my end step if i'll have effects on their upkeep. It gives me precedent to call a judge if they skip over their upkeep to defy me and my abilities. Oh the days of scepter chant and braids. TBH though, it only really comes up anymore if your running tabernacle or rishadan port.

I usually say "I pass until your upkeep" when I plan on doing something during my opponent's upkeep. It sucks as it tips them off that something will be happening, but that's the risk I assume as the alternative is having my opponent untap -> upkeep -> draw -> start shuffling his hand around before I'm able to stop him.

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Originally Posted by Arsenal

I usually say "I pass until your upkeep" when I plan on doing something during my opponent's upkeep. It sucks as it tips them off that something will be happening, but that's the risk I assume as the alternative is having my opponent untap -> upkeep -> draw -> start shuffling his hand around before I'm able to stop him.

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I'm curious if it's acceptable, from a judge's perspective, once you play a card that tends to be used/triggered during the opponent's upkeep (e.g. Tabernalce, Port, etc.) to say something along the lines of "I expect to have clear passing of priority during your upkeep while this card is in play. If you fail to announce that you intend to move to your draw step, I will attempt to back up to having my allowed priority and call a judge if necessary." It sounds really dickish written out like that, but I think you can understand the non-dickish intent. It's really just declaring that the often acceptable shortcut of untapping and drawing is no longer acceptable given the game state.

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

I've always told my opponent at my end step if i'll have effects on their upkeep. It gives me precedent to call a judge if they skip over their upkeep to defy me and my abilities. Oh the days of scepter chant and braids. TBH though, it only really comes up anymore if your running tabernacle or rishadan port.

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So this can't be the best way to do things, right?

Me: "End my turn, but during your upkeep I have effects."
Opp: "…how fortuitous, during the beginning of your end step, *I* happen to have effects as well."

Compared to:

Me: "End my turn."
Opp: *untapping*
Me: "During your upkeep, I have effects."
(Assuming my opponent hasn't rushed their draw step, I whip my hair back and forth. However, if they did, did I miss their upkeep?)

There's going to be a big difference in the things that can occur as a result of these lines of play. The Braids example is poor, because it's solidly in the realm of Onboard Tricks -- but I doubt that I need to explain the difference in board state that is made when you have the option to play effects during the end of a player's turn. In a game where timing can represent the difference between my opponent untapping with all their land free or needing to make decisions during their upkeep, why would I ever want to offer my opponent insight into my intention to act during their upkeep, except in situations where they can just claim "sorry you missed it" and carry on? I may not be able to paint a full picture of potentiality here, but this really seems like it puts the advantage solidly in the opponent's hand at all points.

To re-examine Braids, for the sake of argument -- my opponent, were they compelled to rush to the draw step, may have gambled against having some technology to deal with Braids until after the draw, and if we take the statements from other players so far, we *should* play as though the opponent will miss their triggers, so it's always right to do this. However, if I announce my trigger during my "pass the turn" declaration, the opponent may make a line of play that they wouldn't otherwise make; maybe they don't not play the Brainstorm in hand, for example, because now they know I'm not going to forget. While it kind of begs the question, "If they had Brainstorm to dig for Braids answers, why didn't they just do that instead?", who the hell knows, there are limitless permutations available here.

The point is, I should have the capacity to clearly announce triggers as they occur, as opposed to feeling like now I need to do so advance to 'play around' any potential Speedy McBadRuling who is just making what they consider to be the best play; bludgeoning the game-state past the point of backing up.

I was doing this before the rules change, mainly because I played so many decks back in the days with upkeep effects. I'm sorry I didn't clarify; I was speaking in regards to onboard effects, such as a braids, smokestack, a scepter imprinted with an orim's chant, etc. I probably wouldn't do it if my intention was to play vendilion clique for example, or if I was casting a silence from hand or something along those lines; only something continuous that they shouldn't skip.

I'm back.

Interesting thread. Not that I agree with everyone, but still it's interesting read.

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Me: "End my turn."
Opp: *untapping*
Me: "During your upkeep, I have effects."
(Assuming my opponent hasn't rushed their draw step, I whip my hair back and forth. However, if they did, did I miss their upkeep?)

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TsumiBand, do you know where's the trouble? Someties there's no untap. Yes, the pahse happens, but as long as nothing became tapped last turn, it just happens but it take 0.2 second of untap, 0.2 secondof upkeep and then just whoa! you missed the upkeep trigger, sry dude, ur fault.
Imho the best thing is to use the EOT phrase "I'll have upkeep fast effects or whatever", even though it sends signals. I even think that it's reasonable to say it even if you in fact have none of them, it costs nothing, it slows down the game for one second and you're bediming your intentions thus making your "next real" upkeep FEs less predictable. (I hope you know what I mean...)

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I'm curious if it's acceptable, from a judge's perspective, once you play a card that tends to be used/triggered during the opponent's upkeep (e.g. Tabernalce, Port, etc.) to say something along the lines of "I expect to have clear passing of priority during your upkeep while this card is in play. If you fail to announce that you intend to move to your draw step, I will attempt to back up to having my allowed priority and call a judge if necessary." It sounds really dickish written out like that, but I think you can understand the non-dickish intent. It's really just declaring that the often acceptable shortcut of untapping and drawing is no longer acceptable given the game state.

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Not sure. You're kinda moving responsibility to the other player and he's not the one to keep an eye on the Tabernacles. Also, what exactly you'Re asking for is him to announce "Upkeep!?" thus serving as a reminder for your cards, somethig similar to Necorpotence/Sylvan/Vial counter left on the top of library.
Otoh, your proposed system (call it as you wish) is pretty good and reasonable and in fact I'd want the other ppl to verbally go through the phases Tabernacle or not. I think I'll start to name the phases agian, it's not necessary to do the detailed work (like somebody wrote in this thread "end of the combat phase triggers", etc.), but at least announcing the main pahses (I mean "main" phases, not "main phases") should be the very minimum.

To be clear, it is actually favorable for you if your opponent forgets the tabernacle.

I'd call a judge on that. :cool: