[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

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Originally Posted by sawatarix

Call me ignorant but the creature package looks pretty...random for my taste.
But the player must be a good player and would have made 11th at the GP with a more basic rug list i guess.

(2 ooze,taiga and 3 daze? C'mon thats jund with force of will :D )


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

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It does look random, but maybe I can help decipher it...

There's 20 land, featuring a 4th Volcanic and an additional Taiga, lending additional red to power the Lavamancer. The 2 extra land are probably there to help power out higher cmc threats and fuel Scavenging Ooze. Because of the extra two land, the creator of the deck probably decided they didn't need to protect their mana base as much as traditional Canadian, and because the presence of a Taiga makes it harder to be wasted off your non-blue mana sources, they opted out of the 4th Stifle. Additionally, since the goal is to play the higher cmc cards sooner, the 4th Daze was additionally shaved.

The creatures present signify a leap away from GY dependence in a major way; this list is almost trying render RiP illegitimate by removing the GY before the opponent does. It's an interesting strategy.

@ Contract Killer:

I also don't think the new burn spell is good enough. Ghastly Demise doesn't seem to get played anymore in the BUG variants, and that's a card that counts all cards in your GY as opposed to being limited to Instants and Sorceries. And while Ghastly is a fantastic card, Bed Decks is right: we really do want our removal active from t1 and forward, particularly against the decks where it would supposedly shine. Ie, you're boarding in a card against KotR...you may want something that doubles up against a card usually seen alongside it, such as Mother of Runes. Or, Tarmogoyf: DRS is a common sight alongside Tarm right now...and we want him to be DOA also.

If you do test with the Mogli burn, I'd suggest a list packing 4 Gitaxians to help fuel t1 options. Otherwise, because Mogli burn does not have the option to target a player, I do believe Dismember to be our best option.

Also, I remember...maybe a year or two ago, Bryant Cook of TES fame posted in this forum after doing well at a larger tournament. This was during a time of a lot of Tin Fins and Reanimator, and his list was fairly stock with the inclusion of 4 Vapor Snag. While I know we're looking for more permanent options, this might also be an option against Knights and Tarms and such while maintaining t1 efficacy.

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Originally Posted by sawatarix

Call me ignorant but the creature package looks pretty...random for my taste.
But the player must be a good player and would have made 11th at the GP with a more basic rug list i guess.

(2 ooze,taiga and 3 daze? C'mon thats jund with force of will :D )


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

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It's not as random as you think.
Taiga is simply the best land you can fetch in 3rd position because it allows you to activate twice Ooze's capacity or to activate Grim + play an other red spell, while protecting your mana base from a single Wasteland.

I agree than Ooze doesn't aplly the same pressure than Tarmo in early game, but, by removing cards from your opponent GY, it's a better beast against:
- PiF.deck
- Snapcaster.deck
- Loam / PF and all recurrent cards wich transit by the grave
- DRS.deck
- Rea / Dredge
etc...
Otoh, it can continue to apply pressure even if Rest in Peace touch the board. It is also a very good topdeck in late game if you can pump it 3 or 4 times, gain life plus transform it into a more big threat than Tarmo.

Not playing Nimble allows you to play Grim. Grim is a nut in all aggro-controle MU. If the opponent don't kill it, it neutralize DRS / Stoneforge / Delver, it is awesome against Elves and D&T too. It allows you to kill a Goyf if you complete his shot with a Bolt. I agree that Nimble is a solid threat but with all those Nemesis in the format, with all those RiP, it often becomes more weak than before.

Playing 2 TNN + 1 V.Clique allows you to continue to Bolt your opponent each turn even if your opponent has also a TNN. In this place, Nimble does nothing.

Play 20 lands is a good strategy to fight with BUG Delver and UWR Delver. Sometimes, those MU is just about twice Waste your opponent to keep him off playing his stuff, so the more lands you have, the more you can resist to that strategy.
Play 20 lands also improve the Stifle's strategy because sometimes you keep your mana up for Stifling this opponent fetch but because you usually play only 18 lands, your opponnent simply drop more land than you, and your tempo strategy become bad and it return against you.

Sure it is a non-conventionnal RUG but sure you can't reach this place in a GP with a "random" list.

Please, consider it a second time. ;)

ps: I am sorry for my very bad english level.

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Originally Posted by Vain

So a few people on the internet tell you they aren't having success with TNN and from that you conclude that it's a bad card in RUG tempo? Besides, most people in the old thread were cutting mongoose for TNN, which is just plain bad since mongoose is generally the best creature in the deck.

Big tournaments aren't always just around the corner. Also, you can still draw conclusions about a card being good or not by playing small tournaments with it. It's not as if people suddenly play completely different in a big tournament than in a small tournament.

If your oppenent has a removal spell, you end up with a dead goyf. A dead goyf can't apply pressure.

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You ever hear of feeding removal spells out of an opponent's hand? Same thing with feeding counters out of their hand. Your creatures are going to die to removal and you can only do so much to stop it, playing TNN isn't going to help much game 2 & 3 when they board in hate for it. Also do you not consider the SCG tournaments fairly large than a hometown shop? And no I know from experienced players that they are not having success with TNN in RUG.
I play tournaments on the east coast and not to sound arrogant but there is more than a handful of skillful players here in legacy. Just look at upstate NY where I use to play regularly till Jupiter Games stopped hosting events. Bryant Cook and a handful of others are from there, Idk if you ever heard of Team EPIC that had Adam Barnelo, Bryant Cook and a few other skillful players at the time, but those dude would consistently top 8. I've been playing legacy competitive since my Junior year of high school (I'm 24 now), I've had tournament success in the past with many decks, RUG being one of them and countless bant decks. I know what I'm talking about and I'm not a close minded individual but TNN doesn't belong in the deck. I'd like to see people discuss Eli Kasiss list with young pyromancer, who if you didn't know was the number 1 sealed player in the world for the longest time till DCI changed it to planeswalker points and has top 8'd countless legacy tournaments. Also former co-owner of Jupiter Games. The skill level of players I face every tournament isn't a handful of scrubs every round.

Now back to discussion in the thread. What are everyones thought's on Young Pyromancer in the deck? I know it doesn't have much success yet but people are right tarmogoyf has lost its lust to fair decks now because of power creep, etc. I tested Eli Kassis Young Pyromancer build last Sunday against Team America and DNT which I did win series often with it, you see once YP is removed there is still value on the board of 1/1 elemental's. His sideboard I would change a bit, but the deck seems solid playing against those decks. Would I play it in the next tournament I go to with little test there's a good possibility, I like to take chances with decks, and in life in general. For sideboards with the rise of reanimater and my favorite dredge; do you guys think we should go back to playing Surgical Extraction in the sideboard or still graffdiggers cage?

Rug is a solid deck now some things can be moved around with say stifle, spell pierce, spell snare, forked bolt, thought scour, and git probe. Other than that the basic shell is solid. What makes a good Rug player is the sideboard and how you board for match ups where most players are not skillful at (most of them advocating TNN). With regards of it falling off the radar is because only a handful of skillful players would top 8 with it. It's a cheap deck to make which isn't why I like it but it does bring in a lot of unskillful players being so that it is. Regardless this is my last post about TNN for now unless some miracle happens that you guys advocating are right (which is highly unlikely).

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

It's different. First of all, we need mana to play it, and red one to be exact. Submerge is playable of Tropical Island, similarly to Dismember which is castable with Wasteland. Moreover, Spite of Mogis is not free ...and that may be trouble in some matchups.

First of all, this isn't completely easy. Although KotR.dec won't play RiP (and neither will any deck with Goyf or Stalker, except maybe for some kind of silly WB brew), it's still something we need to count. Esp. big Knight or turn1 DRS might be hard to remove with this card, as for the DRS you need to at least Ponder and BS, while for the KotR we're thinking about any range possible from 4/4 (realistically the lowest p/t and mana conditions when casting KotR against deck with Daze and Bolt) to mid-game topdeck of 12/12. I especially dislike how this removal might be dead against DnT (where Submerge is also dead, of course), but yeah, we got lots of burn and Roughs for that mu.
My main concern about removal is still the same - it needs to hit both turn1 DRS and turn3 Goyf. Submerge does this. Spite of Mogis is conditional. Otoh, we may play it even if their only green is Grove of the Burnwillows.

Yes, I like that it's a permanent solution. Too many games I've lost when I was forced to wait with Submerge until they fetch and they... never fetched. Also, scry might be relevant.

I'm not sure. Testing will tell. I really dislike how it may be very hard to remove that turn1 elf or some big dude. But well, we have enough removal for the mana dork, and Goyfs won't show up before we'll fill our grave. Otoh, I had ppl sb Nihil Spellbomb or Surgical Extraction against me, and it kinda sucks if they remove your three Ponders at cost of two life, thus changing your Lava Axe into Lava Dart.

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So the graveyard is definitely an issue, but to be honest I've never had someone side in surgical or nighil spellbomb against me. The first is too much living the dream and either dead or backbreaking but never consistent. The second well most people just have plenty of other ways to deal with goyf abrupt decay, Liliana, chainer's edict etc. As for hitting a turn 1 deathrite does submerge ever do that? It might against elves if they fetch, but we already know submerge is better against that match up. There's also the issue that I've had people just constantly play around submerge I mean if they have a goyf out or kotr or something they usually are doing pretty good and don't need to fetch. Even if it doesn't hit T1 threats or consistently deal with goyfs on turn 3 when does submerge ever do that all the time? It seems like most of the time we're waiting for them to fetch and sometimes it just never happens.
As for KOTR in general (haven't actually done numbers) I think their land count parallels our instant/sorcery count. When you think about it they will drop 1 land per turn only half go towards kotr seeing as they need to be fetch/wasteland. I would think we have similar instant/sorcery patterns of countering/bolting/cantriping once per turn. They do get a bit of a boost if we waste them so there's that to consider. This is still just hypothetical, but I'm curious how it would do in kotr match ups.

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Originally Posted by ShiftyKapree

It's a cheap deck to make which isn't why I like it but it does bring in a lot of unskillful players being so that it is.

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What? You've lost me here.

Mogis card is bad, don't waste your time guys :)

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Originally Posted by Contract Killer

So the graveyard is definitely an issue, but to be honest I've never had someone side in surgical or nighil spellbomb against me. The first is too much living the dream and either dead or backbreaking but never consistent. The second well most people just have plenty of other ways to deal with goyf abrupt decay, Liliana, chainer's edict etc. As for hitting a turn 1 deathrite does submerge ever do that? It might against elves if they fetch, but we already know submerge is better against that match up. There's also the issue that I've had people just constantly play around submerge I mean if they have a goyf out or kotr or something they usually are doing pretty good and don't need to fetch. Even if it doesn't hit T1 threats or consistently deal with goyfs on turn 3 when does submerge ever do that all the time? It seems like most of the time we're waiting for them to fetch and sometimes it just never happens.
As for KOTR in general (haven't actually done numbers) I think their land count parallels our instant/sorcery count. When you think about it they will drop 1 land per turn only half go towards kotr seeing as they need to be fetch/wasteland. I would think we have similar instant/sorcery patterns of countering/bolting/cantriping once per turn. They do get a bit of a boost if we waste them so there's that to consider. This is still just hypothetical, but I'm curious how it would do in kotr match ups.

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I had Nihil Spellbomb used against my Mongooses on several accasions. See, often times Goyf isn't affected by it, and bUrg players already got AD for Goyf, but what they fear (and can't touch in any reasonable way) is threshed Mongoose or two in an open red zone. That's when they fire of the spellbomb to send the Mongoose back into Golgari Charm range (or at least make it irrelevant for a few turns during which they take control), and if they hose a random LftL in the process, even better then.
I'm not saying it's a valid approach and maybe the guys should rahter concentrate on Goyf walls or whatever else, but the fact that Spellbomb cantrips and shrinks Mongoose and may affect Goyf and may stop LftLWaste is reason good enough to sb it against RUG.

On removal: those are some good points, sadly it's all too hypothetical, both the Spite of Mogis and Subemrge scenarios. I think that what we want froma Submerge-like card is different than what we want froma damage-based removal.
Damage spells, are mainly meant to remove the turn1 and turn2 dudes (mostly DRS and SFM, but also Delver and Merfolk/Elf lords and/or utility creatures, esp. DnT ones). For it to work, you need a reliable spell, and Spite of Mogis simply isn't reliable. Again DnT it may be nullified by RiP, against DRS it may be nullified by DRS alone, against lords it may not have enough power soon enough, not to mention Folks play(ed) Relic which make the spell even more clunky. It kills big dudes, yes it does, and is good against Tombstalker (which is major pita as it's big and flies) and Goyf (which is very usual wall), and it may hit KotR (depending on how many Wastelands happen). But it is once again unreliable, unless drawn in lategame against the first two dudes (because they - and esp. Stalker - can't grow beyond certain level), while against KotR it's still a lottery, esp. if she already made at least one cycle through the library (sac - find fetch - fetch, or sac - find Waste - waste). You'd be very, very unhappy when you'll be one damage short of dealing with a gamesealing KotR, knowing that a Submerge in resp. to her/fetchland's activation would be a zero-mana Terror.
There are other factors that make the math more complicated, like that Spite is a permanent answer, or it may work without Forest or that Submerge doesn't feed opponent's grave with acreature (important namely for DRS, SCooze and Goyf), or anything else, so right now I simply can't say which spell is better. It's up to us, RUG pilots, to determine this in testing and of course: in tournament play.

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Originally Posted by ShiftyKapree

Your creatures are going to die to removal and you can only do so much to stop it, playing TNN isn't going to help much game 2 & 3 when they board in hate for it.

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Originally Posted by ShiftyKapree

I'd like to see people discuss Eli Kasiss list with young pyromancer, who if you didn't know was the number 1 sealed player in the world for the longest time till DCI changed it to planeswalker points and has top 8'd countless legacy tournaments.

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I don't care how many planeswalker points someone has. I just looked up the list that you posted a couple of pages back from Eli Kasiss, and it just looks horrible. No stifles, 1x island, 1x temporal mastery, 1x snapcaster mage and 1x spell snare and sideboard 1x hydroblast? Please...
Also, I hope you do realise that young pyromancer dies to everything TNN dies to and much more.

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Originally Posted by ShiftyKapree

Also do you not consider the SCG tournaments fairly large than a hometown shop?

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I'm not from the US, so there aren't a lot of large tournaments here.

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Originally Posted by ShiftyKapree

It's a cheap deck to make which isn't why I like it but it does bring in a lot of unskillful players being so that it is.

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Since when is rug tempo a cheap deck to make? Also, just because I don't have a lot of posts here doesn't mean I'm a total noob or something.

Played in a small tournament last night. Got locked out of really close games by opposing Tarmogoyfs and Abrupt Decays by BUG Delver and Shardless BUG. I know, due to the variables inducing a sort of inconsistency, Divert hasn't caught on very much, but I'm going to return to it as a 2-of in my SB and moving the 2 Spell Snare in my SB to the main.

I usually fair well against Jund, BUG Delver, and Shardless, but last night's experience...having an advantageous game state only to be shut out once my BGx opponent stabilized....was very frustrating, and with BUG Delver so popular, I'm wondering how we//I can make the matchup as consistently positive as possible.

Are there any suggestions for people who've had continuing success against these matchups? I know the running strategy is to RUG them out through Stifles and Wastes and to counter//burn DRS as soon as possible, but in the event that this sequencing of plays is not available, what are successful SB and play strategies?

I think I may go against Kapree's sage advice and start doing more testing with 2 TNN + 2 cantrip in place of 4 Tarmogoyf as the meta becomes more successful at resisting our early game and forcing us into the mid-game.

1st place this very day with rug on a small tourney..4-0 12man, won me a bloodstained mire 5usd entrance..not bad!

Scanned thru and saw no elves, no reanimators, no dredge..so i tweaked my sb final minutes..went for 3pyroblast, 2submerges (i usually play 3), 2pithing needles, 1grudge, 1destructive revelry, 2surgicals, 1sulfur elemental, 2roughs, 1pierce..

Main is standard with this creature configuration..3goose, 3goyfs, 4delvers,1 tnn and 1 vendilion cliq.

Match 1 (2-1) vs dnt
Lost game 1 via resolved vial with continues drops eot, game 2 where i stifled 2 jitte triggers with him losing his crits to goyfs and delver got me there, game three i just have nuts draw with multiple forked bolts...didnt drew sulfur, but when tnn landed, it made it alot easier for me..

Match2 (2-1) rug mirrorpLost again game one, via double delvers..my goyfs, which are on a lesser count came in early, three of them are boss! game three i was able to control his mana development, and my lone goyf was like a liliana facing goose, after goose, three times coz he's facing lethal.

match 3 (2-1 uwr patriot)
Lost game 1 again, via resolved sfm to batterskull..game 2 i have three delvers and 3dazes, that gave me a fast W, was confident coming in to 3rd game as he mulled to 5, still wasnt a walk in the park..he resolved an tnn down to 6, eot i v.cliqued myself holding an already not useful daze...drawing a forked bolt to seal it..if the cliq,was a goyf..anytime he would be able to come back..so im into the finals..

Match4 (2-1) showntell
4th game i lost game 1 haha, not worried at all haha! game 1 where he went off, i fowed, but he has an,answer..game 2 where multiple delvers made a fast clock, he tried resolving a grid which was met by my lone snare! Game three was tight, i managed to surgicalled a countered show, he drew sneak, i saw emra thru my surgical..i daze, he sac petal..leaving him no mana and passed..i have destructive revelry to destroy it nextturn..a few more turn when my only clock is a tnn, he tried another sneak with no counter backup, it resolved but upon activating it...i stifled, again leaving him with no red coz i was able to cut him off red by destroying his lone volc...i brainstormed on my turn and drew a pithing needle that was met by a handshake..Awesome day indeed! I cut short the report coz im too sleepy, just so excited bout how my tweak went very well this day..the lone tnn and v.cliq gave me game midrange..i was simulating that if its a goose or a goyf i will not be in this position..when i was unable to cast em yet, they are very fow friendly on situations i really need to counter...

Im very happy with my latest list, it offers more versatility rather than me just seating with a goyf or goose that offers nothing on certain situations like rip, bigger blockers, pro green etc.. my other inclusions in the deck are 2pierce, 1snare, 1zzet charm, 2forkeds...everythin is standard.

Sorry if there are typo errors, will edit it tomorrow once wide awake haha!
Go Rug!

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Originally Posted by carefulmug

Played in a small tournament last night. Got locked out of really close games by opposing Tarmogoyfs and Abrupt Decays by BUG Delver and Shardless BUG. I know, due to the variables inducing a sort of inconsistency, Divert hasn't caught on very much, but I'm going to return to it as a 2-of in my SB and moving the 2 Spell Snare in my SB to the main.

I usually fair well against Jund, BUG Delver, and Shardless, but last night's experience...having an advantageous game state only to be shut out once my BGx opponent stabilized....was very frustrating, and with BUG Delver so popular, I'm wondering how we//I can make the matchup as consistently positive as possible.

Are there any suggestions for people who've had continuing success against these matchups? I know the running strategy is to RUG them out through Stifles and Wastes and to counter//burn DRS as soon as possible, but in the event that this sequencing of plays is not available, what are successful SB and play strategies?

I think I may go against Kapree's sage advice and start doing more testing with 2 TNN + 2 cantrip in place of 4 Tarmogoyf as the meta becomes more successful at resisting our early game and forcing us into the mid-game.

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I don't think you should do the TNN route because this deck already has problems getting to 2 mana. The way this deck is constructed, getting to 3 mana is not ideal.

I have been doing the 8 bolt plan and it has been doing wonders for me, helps with the cheapy creatures people throw on board and then i get to bolt in the face in the event of a race

Poxy is on a roll, congrats!

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

I don't think you should do the TNN route because this deck already has problems getting to 2 mana. The way this deck is constructed, getting to 3 mana is not ideal.

I have been doing the 8 bolt plan and it has been doing wonders for me, helps with the cheapy creatures people throw on board and then i get to bolt in the face in the event of a race

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Yeah, I've long been committed to keeping the average cmc as low as possible, typically considering Tarm the weakest creature due to his "high" mana cost. But the deck can absolutely reach 3, even 4 mana if need be were we playing more cantrips, like maximizing the number of Gitaxian Probes and/or utilizing Preordains.

But, I admit, it's a long shot.

I'm glad to hear the 8 bolt plan continues to impress people. Perhaps I should try my own suggestion at this point.

And good going, Poxy! What are you, 8-0 over the past 2 weeks?

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Originally Posted by carefulmug

Yeah, I've long been committed to keeping the average cmc as low as possible, typically considering Tarm the weakest creature due to his "high" mana cost. But the deck can absolutely reach 3, even 4 mana if need be were we playing more cantrips, like maximizing the number of Gitaxian Probes and/or utilizing Preordains.

But, I admit, it's a long shot.

I'm glad to hear the 8 bolt plan continues to impress people. Perhaps I should try my own suggestion at this point.

And good going, Poxy! What are you, 8-0 over the past 2 weeks?

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8 bolt plan has been exceptional for me. with the 2 spell pierces from the extra 2 slots.

[QUOTE=carefulmug;805438
And good going, Poxy! What are you, 8-0 over the past 2 weeks?[/QUOTE]


Thanks man, last sunday i top'ed 8 on a bigger tourney (4-1-1) but lost the quarters vs esperstoneblade, few days after i went home to bag 1st place..thanks too @purgatory..i do hope this stays always haha.this win is for us!

Alongside with me the last tourneys is my teammate tommie, he plays the gitaxian built, we been exchanging infos on how these rugs perform..and so far the 7burn built ive been using has been successful..he top16ed too last sunday, it really depends on ur playstyle, ive tested probes too and they were awesome on the opening hand, but with the rise of annoying crits like drs, white armies, random guys etc..im more confident with more removals, rather than repeated draws..sometimes i would probe just to draw another cantrip...im conditioning myself just to make more value of my 8, and i still have another awesome swiss knife via izzet charm..7th burn, third pierce, and can do wonders when im flooded with lands, as long as i play conservatively, i can flush out excess for fresh new draws..the sb really matters, and that what ive been tweaking evrytime..scouting helps alot on formulating this. I dont think well have probs getting to three manas, they should have a problem getting there battling us..and weve boarded in krosans, sulfurs, vortex..so three shouldnt be an issue, uwr patriot has left the stifle plan, stifles not a staple in bug builts..so im confident we can..with the variations i currently added, i think i have more game midgame rather than the stocklist..in which way im in trouble, i can throw any one of them to fow.

i can also see me playing the 8burn built, itll be fast and can put tnn decks on the edge if itll start on a good lead, i just dont have my chain lightnings with me yet, but i surely like that config.and yes i can put back the stock crit config, if im playing this.

May 4 will be the next major tourney here, i would carry that list with me, 3-3-3-1-1 split on the crits. Hope we do well again..results to follow soon.thanks guys! Go rug!

Anyone mind posting the 8 bolt list? Is it just replacing 2 snares with chain lightnings?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Myelectronicdays

Anyone mind posting the 8 bolt list? Is it just replacing 2 snares with chain lightnings?

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

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you just take the core 54 cards and then with the six flex put in 4 chain lightnings and the other two are up to you. I would recommend though using two spell pierces though just because it's the most versatile between that and snare. I'm pretty sure we don't want any gitaxian probes in the last two spots since we're going down on more reactive cards. As for the sideboard you should be running 2 prices as well since it goes great with the plan and is a work-a-round TNN.

@ Myelectronicdays

8-Bolt Canadian Thresh

4 delver
4 mongoose
4 tarmogoyf

4 brainstorm
4 stifle
4 daze
4 force of will
2 spell pierce
4 lightning bolt

4 chain lightning
4 ponder

8 fetch
6 dual
4 wasteland

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When I first suggested the list in the old thread I listed a 3/3 split on FoW and Spell Pierce, which drew a lot of criticism. Because of how aggressively we play our blue spells, I was not confident there was enough blue with 4 more non-blue cards in the deck to fuel the full set of Force, and suggested moving it to the SB. Since, a lot of people have tested it and it seems the blue count is a non-issue, so the above list is pretty much the go-to for the 8 bolt setup.

I briefly tested the list with 4 fire//ice as opposed to the 4 chain lightning since the ability to tap germ tokens and the like while cantripping, and all the while keeping a high blue count, and had varied success (top4 out of 30 one week, 2-3 the next). Ultimately, chain lightning is likely the most correct choice since the strategy behind the build is to be faster.

The idea behind the 8 bolt list is to have a better game against Elves and DnT through more removal, and to be able to race or seal out games against BUG delver and UWR delver before they stabilize. It doesn't do much to help our game against Miracles, though, which is something that can be remedied with the right SB.

Additionally, and this is only a quirk, but I was also drawn to an 8 bolt plan in the first place because it gave the deck a sort of aesthetic balance between its non-blue colors.

I really like Contract Killer's (and whoever else might be responsible) idea of PoP out of the board and agree it should be a 2-of in the side.

An argument can be made for the 2 spell pierce being 2 Gitaxian Probe, since it speeds up mongoose, cantrips, and provides knowledge as to how aggressive we can be.

PoP wasn't my idea originally in fact I thought it was absurd mainly from my burn experience learning to fear that card like the devil himself. After trying it out against BUG though and dealing a lethal 8dmg in one blow I was sold. The bolts are actually kind of good against miracles from my experience. It helps us reach threshold faster with goose or do something like bolt bolt swing 3 with goose pass and really put them under the gun. We also get more outs to if they entreat (assuming it's not more than two which is really all they need) since we can usually swing bolt and kill the angel.

Just finished a 48 person (rough estimate) tournament and went 3/2 drop. I'll do a quick report and an actual one in a day or so.
Game 1 Infect 2/0
Game 2 Miracles 2/1
Game 3 Tin Fins 2/1
and this is where it goes down hill
Game 4 Manaless Dredge 0/2
Game 5 Shardless Bug 0/2
My shardless bug match up I may have made a few play mistakes in which may or may not have cost me the game. I definitely got two of my worst match ups in the last two rounds I just needed one more win then I could probably make top 8 without question. With how many results manaless dredge has been putting up lately I'm thinking about going to three grave hate in the sb.

@Exuberance How did 2 cage 2 surgical work for you at Atlanta? Was surgical worth it for other match ups like forced shuffle against miracles, breaking P-Fire chain, hitting key lynch pins in lands etc or was it just mainly diversified grave hate?

Do you guys think Winter Orb would be good sideboard material right now? Most of the meta is becoming more midrange and mana hungry so it seems like a great way to punish them for that. Just a thought looking through some old cards that were played in rug. What comes around goes around right?

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Originally Posted by Contract Killer

Do you guys think Winter Orb would be good sideboard material right now? Most of the meta is becoming more midrange and mana hungry so it seems like a great way to punish them for that. Just a thought looking through some old cards that were played in rug. What comes around goes around right?

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Winter Orb is a great card in BUG Delver because Deathrite Shaman + 1 land allows you to play all your deck.

But without DRS, it doesn't make me dream...