Esper Mentor

I have not used the team ultrapro variant before so I do not have much advise for that matchup. Regarding the mentioned cards, I have found Umezawa's Jitte to be not fast enough it to make a difference against RUG Delver from testing. In that matchup, I tend to want trumps such as tasigur and angler or more cheap answers for their threats. I have considered back to basics in this deck before but I have not tested it yet.

On a different note, I ran into space issues building the fact or fiction variant I was working on previously and I am in the progress of working on a new variant. Trying to find a way not to fold to punishing fire + abrupt decay + -1/-1 effects and a miracle trumps that does not fold to izzet staticaster or wear//tear has been a pain.

That's about how I felt about Jitte too, it seems pretty slow. Though when it gets online (much like a lot of those cards), it's pretty great. One card I distinctly forgot is Baleful Strix as well, but that card feels very much like taking the deck in an uncomfortable direction. I don't think we want the deck to be slower. I think I'm going to personally go -1 JTMS from the main and go +1 Gurmag Angler. It's a versatile threat, it attacks with it's size while Mentor attacks more horizontally. Having another Delve threat will really go the distance I feel. In addition to that, Angler can't get Pyroblasted. Especially in these post-board games, I'm siding out JTMS because he just eats Pyroblast, and that's not always a play I want to be making.

Back to Basics will for sure require further testing, but as is common with Legacy decks, we get 15 cards in the side and there can be lots of 'correct' cards to play. I'm not sure there are other cards that do similar things. Do you think you would bring this in against Delver decks too? Or is it too slow?

I don't usually have any issues with Miracles with this deck at all, but I can see how getting past Jund could be a little troublesome (I must admit, I have only played against Jund twice and didn't seem to have any serious issues). I know it probably sounds a bit weird, but I've had some pretty decent success testing out Ob Nixilis, Reignited in both of these matchups. It gives you card advantage, threatens to ultimate very quickly, can come down and help stabilize the board by immediately answering a trouble creature, and is nigh impossible to get dinged by Counterbalance. It's a consideration slot for the side, but personally, as it stands, I don't have trouble with these matchups. I think you could consider cutting (at least in my version) the 3rd Painful Truths from the sideboard for it. In the examples you cited though, it seems to answer ALL of the problems you are looking to correct. Maybe give it a go?

Thank you for the suggestion. I am indecisive about bringing in back to basics without having tested it.

Edit: Baleful strix can be good in that matchup but it gets bolted often. It being an artifact can sometimes conflict with angler and tasigur by fueling their goyfs.

Haven't updated yo uguys in a while. Here is where testing has led me. Part of me really wants to test 4 abrupt decay over force of wills but I haven't went out on that far of a limb. The inclusion of deathrite has been awesome!! It makes standstill really good in mid/late game if I have a deathrite down.

Lands (22)
1 Creeping Tar Pit [WWK]
4 Flooded Strand [KTK]
1 Island [M15]
4 Mishra's Factory [4ED]
1 Plains [M15]
4 Polluted Delta [KTK]
1 Tropical Island [3ED]
3 Tundra [LEA]
3 Underground Sea [3ED]

Creatures (9)
4 Deathrite Shaman [RTR]
3 Monastery Mentor [FRF]
2 True-Name Nemesis [C13]

Other Spells (29)
4 Brainstorm [MMQ]
4 Cabal Therapy [JUD]
4 Force of Will [ALL]
3 Gitaxian Probe [NPH]
4 Myth Realized [DTK]
2 Sensei's Divining Top [CHK]
4 Standstill [ODY]
4 Swords to Plowshares [ICE]

Here's a version I've been testing, nothing to great to report yet but I really like Intuition with a heavy flashback package with Mentor.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Monastery Mentor
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Lingering Souls
2 Spell Pierce
2 Intuition
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Think Twice
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Reanimate

2 Wasteland
8 fetches
3 basics
1 Tar Pit
2 Tundra
2 Usea
1 Scrubland
1 Trop

Honestly the biggest issue I'm having is the manabase, trying to fight against Blood Moon while also having access to lots of colors. Wasteland is there to feed DRS and have an out to annoyances like Tabernacle or Port but might just be terrible. Probably want to just cut the swamp for a ponder.

Intuition is super fun. Reanimate-Mentor-Snapcaster is guaranteed Mentor, and Souls-Therapy-Therapy is sick, especially if you also have a probe. Think Twice is a nice card to toss into Intuition piles if you need it and also is two instant speed Mentor triggers that don't require a target. Then there's always hail marys if you need to get triple force/stp. I imagine double snap-reanimate has applications as well but haven't tried.

Maharis --- I really like where you're going with your list. It looks to be very midrangey and even grindier with the inclusion of Lingering Souls. With that extra token making, do you ever feel like the ZP would be better served as an equipment like a Jitte instead so you can maximize your value out of those tokens? Also, is the reanimate for you other matchups? I've had middling success with Unearth, as it gets back everything in our deck for no loss of life, but I can get behind the value of snagging an opposing Goyf or some other troublesome creatures. I just wonder if the life loss is worth the risk in those aggro matchups. I've been trying to find a good sideboard slot to help out with them, and am torn on lots of different options, but I never thought of Reanimate. What's your experience? Also, what's a normal Intuition pile for you look like? Are you just trying to take them on the express train to value town? Lastly, what's your sideboard look like? Do you have a plan for them bringing in graveyard hate? A lot of times when I'm playing, my opponent will bring in the harder graveyard hate for my ~5 cards that interact. It's definitely a heavier reliance on that zone in your list, so what's your gameplan versus a RIP or a Grafdigger's Cage?

TnA_Will --- I don't know what to think of your variant. It seems a little all over the place, but do you think you need to make it a classical Standstill deck? Sure, you can use Standstill as your draw engine, or use it to help you keep in the games, but it reminds me of a bygone era in Legacy (BUG Landstill). Nowadays, people are cascading into Ancestral Visions and casting Painful Truths, or just going a little bit bigger. Let your testing speak for itself though, as I am not familiar with your list. I am also guessing that the Cabal Therapy seems a little more out of place in your build than others, as I imagine in a lot of times, you want to draw some action off of your Standstill, and when that happens, the cards in your opponent's hand tend to matter a lot less. Regardless, I think it's probably a strong player with your copies of Myth Realized. Also, I'd really love to see your sideboard. As we all know, this combination of colors has a lot to offer and creates some difficult sideboard construction options. Lastly, have you considered any of the planeswalker or perhaps a Delve card or two? It's very easy to fill up the yard, and you're not playing any interaction involving the zone. Delve is very low risk, even more low risk because in a Landstill build you're gonna be hitting your land drops EVEN MORE often. Maybe try out a Tasigur? Or a Murderous Cut? I've had pretty good success with both in my build and even when they do have some kind of graveyard hate, it's still just fine to cast a lot of times.

What are your guys' thoughts on Cabal Therapy? Earlier in the thread, there's A LOT of love for the card, and I'm a huge fan as well, but I'm not sure I can get behind the full playset in here. Most of the times I just don't need it, or just grind my opponent's hand down to nothing, and then it only ends up being a one-turn anthem for my Mentor and friends, which is incredibly underwhelming to me. I really like the 2 main and 1 sideboard copies, as in the matchups where it's really relevant, I like to pair it up with more diverse types of hate cards to complicate things for the more unfair decks.

Also, on a personal list note, I'm looking for some advice on a card to help hedge against Delver and/or other aggressive decks in my sideboard. Considering the nature of the deck in general, I don't think that I want a sweeper, as the best one is 4 mana in Supreme Verdict, but I almost never reach 4 in a timely manner against aggro. I've been going over a pretty comprehensive list in my head for slots and can't seem to pick. Yes, I'm also running Abrupt Decay in my board, but it's hard to side that in against all the aggressive decks with their Wastelands rampaging about. Do ya'll mind chiming in with your personal experiences? Here's what I've been thinking about:

Abrupt Decay - Good, but easily cut off by the presence of Wasteland.
Disfigure - Generic early removal, doesn't kill Goyf, Mongoose, Tasigur/Angler, TNN
Murderous Cut - Kills most everything, but competes with other graveyard cards AND gets hit by whatever harder graveyard hate my opponent boards in.
Liliana of the Veil - Great if it sticks, not TOO expensive, handles most everything pretty well, but 3 mana (especially playing against Daze).
Reanimate - Pulls back a blocker from either side, life loss is a downside against aggro.
Baleful Strix - Seems strange as a 1-of removal spell, trades with everything, grows opposing Goyfs by an extra one.
Council's Judgment - Great catch all, a bit hard on the mana (espeically playing against Daze, again)
Path to Exile - Just plain 'gets it gone' against aggro, but the mana is more relevant against the slightly slower decks
Innocent Blood - Very cheap and effective, poor with my own Deathrite out.
Vindicate - Easier to cast than Council's Judgment, can nuke a land if you're lucky/greedy, but has issues with TNN/Mongoose
Submerge - Seems decent in most matchups, but perhaps a bit more inflexible compared to some other options.
Lingering Souls - Creates extra blockers, gums up the board, and triggers Prowess. Also soft to graveyard hate.
Timely Reinforcements - More narrow than Souls, but more impactful. Hurts to get this Dazed, where I'd be less worried about Souls eating a Daze.
Umezawa's Jitte - Slower and no good without creatures (and if we stick a creature, we are usually winning already). Probably best paired with a card like Souls, but that requires two spots where I only have one.
True-Name Nemesis - Fight fire with fire! Or so I'm told, but most times I think sticking a Mentor is probably better, though slamming this guy on 3 and having him resolve is much harder to answer once on the board, especially where a lot of opponents are siding out FOW. Tapping down for Mentor is rough on 3, and very risky. This guy seems more reasonable to just throw out there and hope he doesn't get countered. By this logic, Liliana is probably better.

Either way, as you can see, there are a lot of options to consider, and I have no idea which direction to go in. What do you guys think? Which removal do you think would be best suited to work with our deck variant?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by One With Nothing

TnA_Will --- I am also guessing that the Cabal Therapy seems a little more out of place in your build than others, as I imagine in a lot of times, you want to draw some action off of your Standstill, and when that happens, the cards in your opponent's hand tend to matter a lot less. Regardless, I think it's probably a strong player with your copies of Myth Realized. Also, I'd really love to see your sideboard. As we all know, this combination of colors has a lot to offer and creates some difficult sideboard construction options. Lastly, have you considered any of the planeswalker or perhaps a Delve card or two? It's very easy to fill up the yard, and you're not playing any interaction involving the zone. Delve is very low risk, even more low risk because in a Landstill build you're gonna be hitting your land drops EVEN MORE often. Maybe try out a Tasigur? Or a Murderous Cut? I've had pretty good success with both in my build and even when they do have some kind of graveyard hate, it's still just fine to cast a lot of times.

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Here is what my side board is currently.
Sideboard (15)
1 Bitterblossom [MOR]
2 Containment Priest [C14]
3 Enlightened Tutor [6ED]
1 Ethersworn Canonist [MMA]
2 Flusterstorm [CMD]
1 Humility [TMP]
1 Karakas [LEG]
1 Rest in Peace [RTR]
1 Vendilion Clique [MOR]
2 Zealous Persecution [ARB]

As far as stratagies go-
Rug/Bug BitterBlossom comes in,Clique and Karakas in, Tutors come in. Out 1x standstill,1x Myth, 4x forces come out.
Tes/Ant/Omni Show/Cloudpost/Painter (basically combo in general except R/G lands) Tutors come in, Canonist in, 2x Fluster storm in, 1 Humilty in, 1 karakas in, Clique in: Out 4x STP, 4x deathrites out, 1x standstill out.
Infect: 1x Bitterblossom in, 2x Zealous in,3x Tutors in, 2x Flusterstorm in: Out 4x Deathrites, 4x Standstill out.
Miracles: 1x Bitterblossom in, 3x Tutors in: Out 4 STP
R/G Lands: 1x BitterBlossom in,1x Rest in Peace in, 3x Tutors in, 1x Humility in, 1x Karakas in, 1 Clique in Out 4x Shawmans, 4x STP's out.

I'm at work or I would think about the rest like Elves/ReAnimator/Burn/D&T/etc... but I haven't played against any of those match ups with this current configuration. I'm pretty sure based on my Legacy experience with standstill type decks I know how I would board but I just haven't tested this specific configuration against those decks yet. Still need to before Philli in Feb to Iron out all the details.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TnA_Will

Here is what my side board is currently.
Sideboard (15)
1 Bitterblossom [MOR]
2 Containment Priest [C14]
3 Enlightened Tutor [6ED]
1 Ethersworn Canonist [MMA]
2 Flusterstorm [CMD]
1 Humility [TMP]
1 Karakas [LEG]
1 Rest in Peace [RTR]
1 Vendilion Clique [MOR]
2 Zealous Persecution [ARB]

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You seem to be a bit more controlling, have you considered potentially even boarding in a singleton Counterbalance out of the side to go with your Tops? Sure, it's a bit slow, but that's respectable against combo once it gets rolling as well. It sounds crazy in my head, but I figure it's worth a thought. I think it wouldn't hurt to move your Karakas mainboard too, as white is our primary colors and you could easily cut a Tundra for it (especially with 8 fetches). I've personally never been a fan of running more than 2 Enlightened Tutor, since you can find everything with all the cantrips as well, so that could theoretically open up another slot. You could also consider some non-zero number of Meddling Mage to go with or replace your Containment Priest. Since you have more Probe and Therapy, you will have that information a lot more often to completely lock out a card. I think if you're looking for some hedging against aggro, you could just play an Umezawa's Jitte in your board, since you can tutor that bad boy up with Enlightened Tutor lickety-split. And that can help turn the D&T or Delver matchup in some/most scenarios. Other options for aggro hosers include Toxic Deluge, Engineered Explosives, Supreme Verdict, etc.... I'm a bigger fan of Engineered Explosives here, since it's flexible, settable up to 4, tutorable, AND dodges Counterbalance against Miracles.

Hi guys I am new to the forum but I have been playing legacy for a long time. My last deck before this one was miracles, I decided to change because a lot of people play it right now. To the point, I have been testing this deck for a couple months and I have to say that the best version in my opinion and with my own results is the one chapin took to the gp. I think the reason why I got better results with this decklist and why I think the deck is more powerful is because it focuses in one plan and the list has a lot of synergy while other decks posted in this thread that I have tried are sometimes a mix of game plans. I have made a couple changes to optimize it but i am still missing something.
I play chapins list with this changes:

-1 ponder
-1 tasigur
-1 fetch
+1 vendilion
+1 cabal therapy
+1 underground sea
a lot more changes in the sideboard(2 zealous, sylvan library etc)

The justification is that I wanted more disruption and a better MU against miracles and combo because they are predominant in my meta. For tasigur is just personal choice, when playing against a deck that runs karakas he is a dead card and vendilion is also perfect in my meta. However my biggest problem with the deck is the lack of turn 2 plays when we dont have deathrite shaman, I think our objective is not to fall behind early in the game and without a 2-drop I find that difficult some times, do you guys have the same problem? I was thinking of playing confidant or baleful strix but non of them convince me completely.

TNA_will Looking at your deck list looks like you are playing a more control oriented deck, why did you choose in that case to play mentor and gitaxian over sfm and equipments? deathblade always seemed to me better at doing that.

I would tend to agree with you that the Chapin list is the best baseline at the moment. It's very strong. I made some similar changes to you, except slightly in the opposite direction. I cut a Jace, the Mind Sculptor for a Gurmag Angler. Especially with Miracles mucking about, and everyone else and their brother running Pyroblast, Papa Jace is not somewhere I'm comfortable tapping out for these days. We have difficulty sometimes 'bridging' to the midgame, as you stated discussing turn two plays. A lot of times the turn two plays seem to have a specific line in mind when looking at the hands, and having that extra threat in the form of Angler can give a pretty clear path to the appropriate play.

How are you liking working with nine fetches instead of ten? I trimmed one of the Islands for an Underground Sea, but have seldom missed the extra Island. Do you mind posting your sideboard? I've made some modifications and changes as well, and would like to see the other technology that's currently in place. Mine is as follows:

1 Vendilion Clique
1 Misdirection
1 Flusterstorm
1 Ob Nixilis, Planeswalker
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Meddling Mage
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Containment Priest
1 Murderous Cut

I've been considering swapping the Murderous Cut for some other form of removal and/or card to hedge against aggro, but can't seem to come up with the best choice, as per my previous posting. I've even considered an extra green source in the board to more easily cast Abrupt Decay, but using Bayou doesn't play well with the fetchland base. The Ob Nixilis, while a bit strange looking, has absolutely overperformed. He comes in for the grindier matchups that are trying to 'go long' against us, and does very well instead of the third Painful Truths.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by surface33

TNA_will Looking at your deck list looks like you are playing a more control oriented deck, why did you choose in that case to play mentor and gitaxian over sfm and equipments? deathblade always seemed to me better at doing that.

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I completely agree here, that does seem to be better in the Deathblade shell. The more controlling you go, the more of a departure from Mentor is appropriate (unless you're a filthy Miracles player, of course!).

The thing with jace is that it is really hard to kill if you dont counter it, and while I dont find myself winning a lot with him but he helps me set up a in plan.However I think you are right about ReB and cutting one for an angler looks like a good idea, I will try it.
Regarding fetchlands I havent noticed the difference, in my case running one more dual brings more value than a fetch, you only interact with the fetch if you draw it but the second underground can be fetched. Another thing I have considered is playing two wastelands and cutting one island and another land, what do you think? maybe its not the plan we want to follow, but when i played deathblade having acess to occasional land destruction was nice. Also wastelands give a lot of fuel to deathrites.

My sideboard is as follows:
1 vendilion
2 zealous
1 cabal therapy
3 abrupt decay
2 flusterstorm
1 pithing needle-> I ALWAYS have one of this regardless the deck I play for similar reasons to the sylvan library
1 containment priest
1 surgical extraction
1 sylvan library->I cant give a really good reason for playing this card, I just really like it and Its a card that can always come in when you have a dead card on board
1 supreme ver
1 missdirection

What about the 2-drop? do we need it? Are baleful, hymn to tourach or confidant good options?

The Angler has been performing very well, and I haven't missed the Jace. Thing about Jace is, the matchups where you REALLY want him tend to go long enough for you to find and cast one. This includes matchups like Lands. I'm not sure I care for the Wastelands, but your mileage may vary. I like the fact that the mana is rather stable in here, especially when running Painful Truths. A lot of times I find myself tapping out, and when we don't have any early threats, Wasteland is far less good. If you have a lot of troubling lands in your format, I'd consider it. I think the thing that comes up most is that we are somewhat weak to cards like Punishing Fire/Grove of the Burnwillows, or the Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, but those are corner cases, to which we have other outs for. This is another reason I like the Angler/Tasigur, because they are 'vertical threats' instead of the 'horizontal threat' that is Monastery Mentor. Also, while Wasteland does fuel Deathrite, with the climate of the format, you are likely to find plenty of fetches between both graveyards and/or your opponent's Wastelands.

I like where your sideboard has gone, though I'm not big on the Supreme Verdict. It seems best against decks like D&T and Delver, which will be focused on denying our mana in the early game, making Verdict not come out to play until turn 5-6. I like the idea of using something a bit cheaper and potentially repeatable to shore up those matchups. My best ideas involve Liliana of the Veil, Path to Exile, or Lingering Souls. I can understand the Sylvan Library, but I have my doubts about it in this deck. We have access to Painful Truths (or in my case, Ob Nixilis) to help things out. If you combine the cantripping/smoothing, surviving until 3-5 mana shouldn't be a big problem, especially in the matchups where it's relevant. Sure, the Sylvan Library is great with fetchlands, but I'm a bit more focused on the higher impact cards here. What are you utilizing Pithing Needle most against? I was thinking about Stony Silence because it's similar but different. Pithing Needle is another answer to some of the 'trouble lands' I mentioned above, but I think Stony Silence/Null Rod is way more powerful in handling pesky artifacts.

I also play a split into two Meddling Mage to force the combo decks to jump through more hoops when playing in the post-board games. One of the keys to beating combo decks is to diversify your hate and spread it out over a couple zones, that way you force your opponent to answer different types of hate by diluting their deck. We already have cards that disrupt their hand, and some countermagic, but by adding in cards that target the graveyard or permanents that must also be answered, it vastly complicates the combo matchups. I used to play ANT, and would always have trouble against Meddling Mage decks because they would have counterspells AND Meddling Mage, as well as the occasional extra 'zone hate' card like Surgical or Cage. Basically, the more hoops they have to go through, the better.

I don't know that we need a two drop, since our early game is just to kinda survive to the mid game and force our opponents into bad trades because our cards are more powerful or require immediate answers (while slowly grinding a bit of value). Baleful Strix is probably the best one if you want to try it, but cards like Hymn complicate/destabilize the manabase a bit more (especially with stuff like Sylvan Library out of the board). I think as far as 'surviving' goes, playing an extra piece of removal in the board isn't terrible against the matchups where that bridging is more important. You could even board Baleful Strix if you have a lot of aggro in your metagame. I think Bob is too risky here with the expensive spells AND Painful Truths. I've heard discussion about Jace, Vryn's Prodigy too, but haven't gotten a chance to test it yet. Though the way things are going, I have had no desire to run him because of his downside with Papa Jace, and his lightning rod status among two-drops.

Yeah , fair enough, you make lot of good points, specially about wasteland and the two drop. I use needle against a lot of decks, It comes in against sneak attack, miracles, d&t, bug(some times),painters and almost any deck that has powerful activated abilities, the card is just really good. You are also right about the supreme but we need a card that deals with every creature and supreme does it, against d&t and elves our best card is zealous, the card is incredibly good with mentor. I was thiking the same about the 2-drop, I will play baleful or nothing at all.
What are for you the worst MUs for you the deck? Oh and regarding the side I would really love to find a place for a second surgical, the card is really good against punishing and a lo of decks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by surface33

Yeah , fair enough, you make lot of good points, specially about wasteland and the two drop. I use needle against a lot of decks, It comes in against sneak attack, miracles, d&t, bug(some times),painters and almost any deck that has powerful activated abilities, the card is just really good. You are also right about the supreme but we need a card that deals with every creature and supreme does it, against d&t and elves our best card is zealous, the card is incredibly good with mentor. I was thiking the same about the 2-drop, I will play baleful or nothing at all.
What are for you the worst MUs for you the deck? Oh and regarding the side I would really love to find a place for a second surgical, the card is really good against punishing and a lo of decks.

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I can see the value of the Needle vs Null Rod for Sneak Attack and BUG (walkers), but that's about it. The only other relevant applications would be Needling trouble lands like Maze of Ith, but they can be pretty easily played around and/or hit by our very diverse threat selection. Just a thought, because Null Rod/Stony Silence is more of a 'screw you, I win' card in most of the matchups. Plus, the cards like Meddling Mage are very good against Sneak and Show because they perform a similar role in being a troublesome permanent (that also gets the beatdown on).

While Supreme Verdict does address everything, the other 'sweepers' are too expensive (4 mana), or have a big drawback (Toxic Deluge), or are restrictive against other factors (EE). I still run an EE, and it performs exceptionally, but I think a more traditional sweeper is unnecessary in this deck. Like I said before, bridging to the mid-late game is the most important thing we need to be focused on, and having another piece of removal to help get there will be what lets us win. Our topdecks are generally stronger than most of the format, and cards like Mentor, Tasigur, and Jace attack opponents from A LOT of different angles, making our late game harder to answer. Diversity and high-impact level are what makes the Esper Mentor deck such a strong choice in the first place.

My worst matchups are seemingly swingy, but require more testing for sure. I've had a bad run versus RUG Delver recently, but it's not awful. Shardless BUG seems like a coinflip, but that matchup is more patience than anything. You need to get Mentor and protect it while baiting Decays. There are a lot of different ways each of these matches could go, so you have to pick your role and stick with it. Decks like 12-post and MUD are troublesome, but Meddling Mage out of the board really helps forestall their supreme inevitability. I think one of the highest points of the deck (at least with testing I have recorded in my spreadsheet) is that it has a respectable matchup versus the field if we just know the angles and attack in the appropriate way. I know that can be said about a lot of Legacy decks, but I feel that the tight play is even more rewarding in this specific deck.

What are your thoughts on a mid-game bridge removal card? Whether it be a sweeper like Deluge, a stall card like Lingering Souls, a hard removal like Path to Exile, or a planeswalker/threat like Liliana?

Interesting point of view on EE, and I think you can follow your question with it.I dont think toxic fits the deck because we play shaman and mentor(despite bug playign shamans and toxic maindeck) but I may be wrong.maybe a copy of EE main deck can be a transition for the late game, however if we wanted to add EE we would probably need to cut Councils which I like but maybe does not add more than EE with 4 or even 5 colors in our deck. I do think we need this transition card and two copies would be great although I have no idea if the correct card is toxic, EE or liliana. It is important to take into account that its really hard to cut cards in this deck to the point that i had to cut a ponder to fit my third cabal therapy.
Medling mage is a good card against sneak and show but dies to reb, pyroclasm and all types of removal while needle doesnt die almost to anything from the deck.

I really like having access to Council's Judgment. While WW is hard to make sometimes, it just flat out answers any problem for 1WW. Period. Plus, on really good days, you can Snap it back (although that rarely happens). Great point about Meddling Mage eating it to REB/Pyroblast. While that is completely true against Sneak and Show, it's far less true against other 'unfair' decks, since they don't have access to that card. I think I'm gonna stick with the Mages unless we see that kind of uptick in Sneak and Show. Another upside to Mage is that he comes in against control decks too, like Miracles. It's a little more comfortable committing to the board when you can Mage on Terminus or Swords. What do you like having the extra Therapies against? More specifically, when do you board them out? I have a hard time telling whether I'm supposed to keep them or not in a lot of games, as some of the grindier decks make it an absolutely terrible topdeck.

As a quick aside too, you mentioned bad matchups, and I tested a couple more matches last night with a friend, and Burn is a terrible matchup. Though I think that holds true to a lot of Legacy as well. I'm not sure any sideboard card would help here outside of swapping Combo hate to Leyline of Sanctity. This is certainly a possibility, but I think the other pieces function much better. Your thoughts?

yeah, burn seems pretty bad MU, but a lot lf decks can say that too. Councils is really good card and I think I will leave it but i am not comometely sure.

Well, yesterday I was able to test the deck a lot in a 260 man tournament and against a lot of different decks. My worst MU were elves, grixis and soecially JUND! I didnt think that jund was such a terrible MU, the punishing tool just killed everything I had. It was almost impossible. So based on all the results and feedback from some friends with experience I have made a some interesting chnages that I think improve the deck and make it more resustent to aggresive starts.
-1 jace
-1 therapy(played 3 maindeck)
-1 painful(played 2 maindeck)
-1 vendilion
-1supreme verdict(side)


+1 liliana of the veil
+1 toxic deludge
+1 tasigur
+1 ponder
+1 engeneered explosives(side)

So my biggest problems yesterday were the lack of removal and a vertical threat that the opponents have to asnwer. Tasigur fixes in a way the second part. As for the lack of removal toxic at first seemed bad with mentor and shamans, but if you think about it it kill the biggest threats without killing anything from our deck. It kills almost everything from grixis, elves, D&T,, nemesis and if you want to pay two lifes you will lose your tokens but even mentor will survive. Also, this is in the worst scenario, where you have something in play(in this case you might already have advantage and can not use it, the important part is that it gives an answer to something that we really cant deal with and it is a big amount of creatures. it can also go main deck!. The second addition was liliana, follows a similar logic, is a piece of removal and an early threat that can be gane winning if you play it turn 2. Maybe I would not play her if I didnt have anything to cut but jace underperformed, and having 3 maindeck, which is as much as miracles, seems too much. I think 2 jaces 1 liliana id a good split. Finally I wanted to bring back my 4 ponder and now that I olay tasigur I can move my vendilion to the side, however I am not sire about this change, what do you think?

And going back to the subject, how do you desl with punishing? You play shaman, but it will die, and I unly run one surgical on the side. Would you recomend playing ripe in the side or more surgicals?

I play 2 Surgical Extraction in my sideboard for every variant I have tested. I wouldn't run Rest in Peace since it turns off your Cabal Therapies, Snapcaster Mages, and Deathrite Shamans. I found a card that could serve as a Jund and Shardless BUG trump in the sideboard, Sigarda, Host of the Herons. It is not susceptible to Punishing Fire, Liliana of the Veil, or Abrupt Decay and can attack over grounded creatures. Any thoughts on it?

Hey, guys, been lurking for a bit and experimenting with a Delver version. But I wanted to run a Chapin-esque build by y'all that lowers the curve a smidgen and incorporates Myth Realized:


3 Myth Realized
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Monastery Mentor
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Murderous Cut
2 Spell Pierce
1 Painful Truths
4 Force of Will

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Creeping Tar Pit

// sideboard - 16 cards ... where's the cut? //

1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Null Rod
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Meddling Mage
1 Containment Priest
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Council's Judgment
1 Painful Truths
1 Supreme Verdict


A few things:

- I went with three Myth Realized because I want to see one early but not topdeck too many late.
- I'm very unsure about my manabase, as it seems most everyone is. I feel like this iteration can't run four basics because the addition of Myth Realized complicates the deck's one-drop mana requirements. It's crappy enough not to be able to cast Deathrite Shaman T1 off, say, basic Island; it would be equally lousy to not have the option to play Myth either. So I'm trying two basics, and I haven't had too many mana problems in goldfishing. Maybe the Plains should be a Swamp so I can cast Shaman in the face of Blood Moon, in which case I'd adjust my other lands accordingly, skewing more white. I also could see the argument for -1 Creeping Tar Pit and -1 Tundra for +1 Karakas and +1 Underground Sea, as Karakas probably has more utility than Tar Pit and doesn't enter the battlefield tapped. I'm no mana math wonk, so I defer to those people.
- Murderous Cut could be replaced with Council's Judgment, but I like the potential of Cut because it clears the way for an early Myth grown with cantrips to put pressure on my opponent.
- Do I have enough refueling with just two Jace, the Mind Sculptors and one Painful Truths? I figured more action with Myth could reduce the need for all that card draw, but the Myth has to come down in the first few turns to really be a threat.
- I've thought about running a maindeck sweeper just because a threat like Myth doesn't get blown up by it. Thoughts?

Thanks!

Sigarda looks almost an autowin if you cast it against jund. Another option I am running in my side is the new gideon.
The monster, for me myth realized has not enough power to see play here, I think the card fits better in slow decks that want to play at instant speed and just spend their mana in the last moment. Also it doesnt fit well with deathrite shaman. However, if you really want to play it you can run toxic deludge, the card is good in this deck.