Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
I understand your reasoning on Constant Mists a little better now. I agree with it a little more now that you've given me an example of a common gamestate. Same for God's Eye. That said, what changes do you think I should make in order to fit those cards in?
-2/3 ???
+1/2 Constant Mists
+1 God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai
Actually, in reference to the gifts piles, I find myself using life from the loam less and less. Maybe that means I'm playing the deck wrong, but since I've added Petrified Field, I haven't cast life from the loam once. Gifts doesn't require that you get four cards, but my gifts piles usually look like:
Crucible
Petrified Field
Academy Ruins
Land/Artifact Bomb
After testing, I'm not as excited about Sphere of Resistance as I was when I saw it. I'm finding that Crucibles costing 4 and Smokestacks costing 5 is really messing up my gameplay. I always end up one mana short of either one, and I lose because I can't play an answer to the threats on the table.
On the card advantage issue: For builds with an artifact toolbox, could Horn of Greed be a potential solution? It becomes a problem after you've found answers and you're trying to win, but if there's a way to get rid of it (ancient grudge) then it seems to be a perfectly viable answer. Using explorations, it'd be easy to drop it into play underneath a stax lock, draw 10 cards, and destroy it.
Lastly, I don't use the WotC boards for competitive magic often, but there are a few people who really know what they're talking about in the casual forum. They helped me tune my build to where it was before the most recent update, and it played fabulously.
I'm liking the idea of a red splash more and more as I watch the deck developing. What does white give the deck besides STP and Humility? If we were to drop those cards, then red could be added to the deck, which allows for Barbarian Ring, Pyroclasm, Gamble, Boil, etc. Swords is good, but I think recurring shocks and cheap wraths may be better.
EDIT: or Standstill for the card advantage issue. It's easy for this deck to control the game without playing spells.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Di
And what, if I may ask, do you propose we do to make a land-based deck have a positive combo matchup game 1? The only solution I have is to turn it into a different deck or run incredibly narrow cards such as Rule of Law in the maindeck. Some people have mentioned Chalice, but it really interferes with the whole Exploration thing against other relevant matchups. Like any Loam-based deck, I think it's fine to accept the fact that it's impossible to give yourself a positive game 1 vs. combo without making your deck suck, and overload the sideboard.
Possibly MD Glowrider or something, I'm not totally sure.
What I meant to say was that I'm not sure if this deck has a good enough combo matchup to do well at a major tournament, or if it has to be lucky enough to get noncombo matchups. It's not that I'm saying that there's a way for you to consistently beat combo game 1 and you just aren't seeing it. I'm asking does your postboard combo matchup allow you to actually win games 2 and 3 or does it pull the matchup to about even.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
Quote:
-2/3 ???
+1/2 Constant Mists
+1 God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai
Given your list, I'm rather unsure. If anything, I'd remove the artifact toolbox and move them to the sideboard.
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After testing, I'm not as excited about Sphere of Resistance as I was when I saw it. I'm finding that Crucibles costing 4 and Smokestacks costing 5 is really messing up my gameplay. I always end up one mana short of either one, and I lose because I can't play an answer to the threats on the table.
If Sphere of Resistance is an issue, you can always use Trinisphere instead. That would still be strong against combo, but your Crucibles and Smokestacks will still cost 3 and 4 respectively.
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On the card advantage issue: For builds with an artifact toolbox, could Horn of Greed be a potential solution? It becomes a problem after you've found answers and you're trying to win, but if there's a way to get rid of it (ancient grudge) then it seems to be a perfectly viable answer. Using explorations, it'd be easy to drop it into play underneath a stax lock, draw 10 cards, and destroy it.
Horn was in my initial list before I brought it to tournament play or posted it, but cut it because I found myself losing to it because I would deck myself. It's absolutely insane in here, but the issue is you need to continuously play lands in order to win. However, that was long before the deck ran Smokestack. Given that it does and the deck now has a means to destroy it, I'm rather certain Horn of Greed will fit very nicely into the deck. It can probably take the Thirst for Knowledge slot.
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I'm liking the idea of a red splash more and more as I watch the deck developing. What does white give the deck besides STP and Humility? If we were to drop those cards, then red could be added to the deck, which allows for Barbarian Ring, Pyroclasm, Gamble, Boil, etc. Swords is good, but I think recurring shocks and cheap wraths may be better
Nantuko Monastery is white, which is the primary reasoning for it. Originally there were the 4c versions running GURW, but the manabase couldn't support it very well. Monastery is the best win condition there is (much better than Barbarian Ring), but I suppose in theory you could replace them with Mishra's Factory. You also lose Nomad Stadium, and the best removal spell in the game.
Still, I guess it'd be ok to see what it'd look like. This is a sample list, purely theoretical, that I whipped up in 5 seconds. It just swaps the white stuff for the red.
4 Exploration
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Thirst for Knowledge/Horn of Greed (I'll be testing this slot in depth)
3 Intuition
3 Crop Rotation
1 Life from the Loam
4 Pyroclasm
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Smokestack
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Constant Mists
1 Zuran Orb (makes up for loss of Stadium)
3 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Taiga
1 Wasteland
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Academy Ruins
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Riftstone Portal (still good)
Just at a glance, that list actually doens't look bad. A playset of Pyroclasms would make the Goblins matchup just retarded. But I dislike how the deck lacks a removal spell to deal with turn 1 Lackey, Tarmogoyf, Ichorid, etc. Lightning Bolt isn't in the same league. Still, I suppose something like this could show promise.
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What I meant to say was that I'm not sure if this deck has a good enough combo matchup to do well at a major tournament, or if it has to be lucky enough to get noncombo matchups. It's not that I'm saying that there's a way for you to consistently beat combo game 1 and you just aren't seeing it. I'm asking does your postboard combo matchup allow you to actually win games 2 and 3 or does it pull the matchup to about even.
I would ask the same thing of a Stax deck against combo. Post-board, they are very, very similar. 4 Chalice, 4 Sphere/Trinisphere, 3-4 Rule of Law. My sideboard creature is between Meddling Mage and Tarmogoyf, but given the combo issue, it's probably Meddling Mage. Between those 15-16 cards, and then Engineered Explosives maindeck, do you believe that this deck can't deal with combo post-board? I'd say that pulls it to nearly even.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
I really like the artifact toolbox. It's been really helpful, though I would like to narrow the toolbox a bit. You'd have to metagame it a little more. Instead of 4 slots, maybe 2 or 3 rather than 4. I'll see what I can do to make it work.
I've been testing both spheres, and I really do like 3Sphere better, just because it's more one-sided. I'll test Sphere of Resistance a little more before dropping it though.
I'll also definitely test Horn of Greed. It looks to be absolutely insane. The biggest problem I've had isn't getting a lock down, it's finding an exploration so that I can build my board position under a stax lock. This'll fix that problem and provide some much needed card advantage, though I wouldn't want to draw one most of the time. It'll take something's place in the artifact toolbox I think for now.
About the white splash. I realize that Nantuko Monastery is AMAZING. But isn't Riftstone Portal enough to activate that? I just don't think that StP is worth it. Humility is easily replaced, but I think that, especially with the new draw engine, I think Riftstone Portal could supplement the entire splash (ignoring GY hate for now).
All in all, I think red offers more than white. Barbarian ring is simply busted in this deck, and on it's own it almost answers the aggro matchup. I'll edit a list into my post after I look over the deck. Your list looks pretty good, but I don't think I'd play it as is. Let me mess around with it a little and goldfish a couple times.
EDITING LIST:
Mana
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
2 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Volcanic Island
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mox Diamond
Singleton Lands
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1 Petrified Field
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Academy Ruins
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Strip Mine/Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Engine
4 Exploration
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Horn of Greed
1 Life from the Loam
Lock Pieces
4 Trinisphere
2 Smokestack
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Constant Mists
1 Glacial Chasm
Singleton Artifacts
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Zuran Orb
Tutoring
4 Intuition
3 Crop Rotation
2 Gifts Ungiven
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
Heya guys,
Has anyone thought about adding Counterbalanace and Divining Top to the deck? It was something that I considered in the board back when I was cutting colors, and since it's down to G/U/R or G/U/r/w, it might be something to consider especially since we run all the major CMC's (other than 5 (FOW))
@Di: I really do like the Red Skeleton that you drafted up, it might be something to consider next time, I play another tourney.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
@94teen
Your edited list is pretty good. I did realize, however, that with adding Barbarian Ring, you can afford to cut a different win condition, be it Nantuko Monastery or Mishra's Factory. A list with 3 win conditions works perfectly fine given how long it takes to win, so you could easily cut one of those for either another utility slot or a 3rd Horn of Greed or Engineered Explosives, or 2nd Constant Mists. I'd personally lean towards Mists because it's nearly as good, and sometimes better, than Glacial Chasm. You could also possibly cut Trinisphere down to 3. I personally only run 3 due to the issue of the card being terrible in multiples, and utterly hate getting a dead draw like that. A 4th could easily be moved to the sideboard.
I still dislike Zuran Orb over Nomad Stadium though. The fact that Stadium can be tutored with Crop Rotation, is uncounterable, gains more life, and has better synergy with Crucible and Life from the Loam makes it an easy choice over Zorb. You only currently have a single white source outside Portal, Canopy, and Mox, but given the consistency of finding all colors I think it's worth it.
Also regarding the manabase, why a setup of 3 Foothills/1 Heath? My only guess is Pithing Needle, but it seems weak to bother doing that considering there are much better Needle targets in the deck, and the fact that Heath can't fetch Volcanic Island.
Quote:
Heya guys,
Has anyone thought about adding Counterbalanace and Divining Top to the deck? It was something that I considered in the board back when I was cutting colors, and since it's down to G/U/R or G/U/r/w, it might be something to consider especially since we run all the major CMC's (other than 5 (FOW))
I'm very skeptical about this for a number of reasons. First and foremost, it would require atleast 6 slots in the deck. This could potentially go in the anti-combo slots being Trinisphere and possibly Smokestack, but I don't foresee much of an improvement there in what you're trying to achieve. Next, this deck has a terrible curve for trying to abuse Counterbalance. Most of the cards are high casting cost, roughly 3 or 4. It won't work like it would in a deck such as Threshold because of their curve and the average curve of the format. You would almost never be able to counter something that was 2cc. Finally, I'm not sure how realibly the deck would be able to get UU early. The deck would be forced to fetch out Tropical Islands and thus shut off it's white sources.
Lastly, I'm currently in the process of developing a new Gwur skeleton. I'm really not in favor of it though, as the only card I really plan on using for this is Barbarian Ring, which requires at least 2 other red sources to go with it. This pretty much prohibits the idea of using double-colored cards, but that only really applies to myself using Humility. I suppose Constant Mists in that slot isn't so bad though, or at least Pyroclasm. But even so, I'm seeing incredible consistency in my current list to the point where I think that adding red may be unnecessary.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
so, which would be the better color for the skeleton? white or red? personally, i like red more, but consistancy matter a great deal too. just opinions, though, because im thinking about goin through like 400 land cards just to make sure we're not missing any.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
I can understand changing Zorb for Nomad Stadium, it makes a lot of sense other than that Zorb doesn't combo with Gods' Eye. It merits testing at least.
The 3/1 split between fetchlands was me trying to get lucky on a pithing needle somewhere (and I only have 3 foothills), but testing shows that it's just dumb to do that. 4 Foothills it is. I can't tell you how many times I'll try to fetch a Volcanic Island off a Windswept Heath.
I understand your reasoning for only running 3 Trinisphere and Mox Diamond, but they're so good in the early game that I run four just so that I can consistently see one in the early game. I completely agree with you that they're both usually pretty bad in multiples, but I think that 4 copies is a necessary evil. If your testing shows otherwise, then just let me know (I don't get to test often).
The thing about Mishra's Factory and Nantuko Monastery: I understand that I can cut one, but I'm not sure which to cut. Mishra's Factory is great in the early game, but becomes all but useless in the late game. A recurring 2/2 is always good, but a recurring 4/4 first-striker is so much better.
I really like the colored maanbase that's set up in this deck. The single Savannah is really good and really annoying I always look for a third Trop or Taiga, but other than that, I have to say that I've had no problems with color screw that were not due to stupid play errors (crop rotating away my colored mana and walking into FoW).
I think this deck is taking a few steps in the right direction, and I know that it's a powerful deck. It's dominating Goblins and Thresh in my testing. The only games that haven't been close is when my friends get double FoW or double piledriver draw. There's a lot of potential available to this deck, and I think there are a few other cards to consider boarding:
Boseiju (FoW hurts a lot sometimes).
Rix Maadi
couple of others I can't think of. It's a little too late for me to be up. Basically I'm reconsidering 5c instead of 4c.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
Quote:
so, which would be the better color for the skeleton? white or red? personally, i like red more, but consistancy matter a great deal too. just opinions, though, because im thinking about goin through like 400 land cards just to make sure we're not missing any.
If you choose a single color, then white. Here's a breakdown of what each color has for viable choices, both maindeck and sideboard:
White:
Swords to Plowshares
Nantuko Monastery
Riftstone Portal (probably irrelevant as it'd be run in a red version anyway)
Humility
Moat
Nomad Stadium
Rule of Law
Meddling Mage
Orim's Chant
Red:
Barbarian Ring
Pyroclasm
Gamble
Burning Wish
Pyrostatic Pillar
REB/Pyroblast
Ancient Grudge (sort of irrelevant as you could cast it off Mox in a white version)
Now, there's a chance I'm missing some good cards between the lists, but I think it's clear that white has a better chance on it's own. It features the best removal spell in the game, the best manland in the game, strong life gain, and more anti-combo cards. Red, on the other hand, has a solid alternative win condition, excellent board sweeper, and some tutors, but after running Burning Wish in the deck for a year I ended up hating it because it cluttered the sideboard with crap. Gamble might be ok though, if you manage to keep cards in your hand.
Also for the record, I'm officially sticking with a GWU list, and not even bothering with the red splash. The deck is working too well in its current state for me to go and make the manabase worse. For reference, this is where my list currently is:
4 Exploration
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Horn of Greed
3 Intuition
3 Crop Rotation
1 Life from the Loam
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Trinisphere
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Smokestack
2 Humility
1 Constant Mists
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Savannah
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Academy Ruins
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Wasteland
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 God's Eye, Gate to the Reikei
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Riftstone Portal
Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Rule of Law
3 Meddling Mage
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Constant Mists
With running Trinisphere again I am back up to 4 Mox Diamond for more consistent turn 1 3drops. I ended up cutting a Horn of Greed from the maindeck because I was constantly drawing multiples and never wanted to play them for fear of decking myself. Having 2 is fine because I still have the option of Intuition. The list does feature less draw than before, but I feel it's more important to have a solid removal presence in the deck should the Glacial Chasm plan fall through. Concerning that anti-aggro suite, I was rather torn between Humility and Constant Mists (still). There were so many games where I wanted one of them, but then wanted the other, so I ultimately decided to run them both squeezing another in the sideboard. I really like that setup.
Speaking of aggro matchups, I'd really questioning your list against Goblins, 94teen:
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I think this deck is taking a few steps in the right direction, and I know that it's a powerful deck. It's dominating Goblins and Thresh in my testing. The only games that haven't been close is when my friends get double FoW or double piledriver draw. There's a lot of potential available to this deck, and I think there are a few other cards to consider boarding:
I really don't see how your Goblins matchup can be so strong. An opening Lackey can be a disaster for you unless you somehow manage a turn 3-4 lock on them without them having a Wasteland. You are heavily relying on Glacial Chasm for this matchup and you can easily get screwed by a Wasteland. I think you should definetely be playing either some sort of sweepers like Pyroclasm or spot removal at the very least, because I just see them running over you. EE isn't very effective against them because of their range of casting costs and effects it has on your own board position. You won't want to cast it for 3 and then wipe out your Crucible, and 1 wipes your Explorations, and if you lose those then you can't stop the disadvantage from Exploration.
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The thing about Mishra's Factory and Nantuko Monastery: I understand that I can cut one, but I'm not sure which to cut. Mishra's Factory is great in the early game, but becomes all but useless in the late game. A recurring 2/2 is always good, but a recurring 4/4 first-striker is so much better.
Considering the deck will always go into the late game, I think this is an easy choice to make.
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Boseiju (FoW hurts a lot sometimes).
Rix Maadi
couple of others I can't think of. It's a little too late for me to be up. Basically I'm reconsidering 5c instead of 4c.
I've lost too many games because of Boseiju to count. I ran it in the deck for a very long time but it's just bad. Given all the damage you take from Ancient Tombs and fetchlands, it makes it easy for the opponent to prey on you hitting yourself. Plus, there are very few instants that you can cast off of it, at least before Trinisphere is in play. FoW can be problematic at times if you keep a hand relying on a single spell or if it's overly weak, but for the most part it's easy to play around those decks due to the high number of bombs, not to mention Academy Ruins and LftL.
Rix Maadi seems interesting because the deck has no source of hand disruption, but it's in 2 off-colors and it's really slow.
I really advise you to not take the 5c route. It's a disaterous manabase and only follows the idea of danger of cool things. Having access to every color is nice in theory, but the deck plays like utter crap trying to do so much at once. Trying to squeeze even more into an already tight manabase and maindeck is hard enough with 3c.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
I understand what you're saying, but after the deck has developed so much, I can't help but feel we might've missed some potential in red and black, and it might be worth trying again.
From what I can tell, red was dropped largely because Gamble wasn't that good when you emtpy your hand so quickly, burning wish wasn't all that great, and barbarian ring was deemed unnecessary. Basically, because the deck lacked enough card draw to make red worthwhile.
The addition of Horn of Greed (awesome in testing) alleviates this problem, and makes gamble a lot more reasonable, and as a 1cc tutor, is just amazing, and I think it alone merits another testing of red.
While I agree with you, your current list looks really, really consistent and really stable, it's not going to make an impact on the format at large unless we innovate. Right now, I feel the best thing to test is the addition of red and the removal of the artifact toolbox in favor of Engineered Explosives. Singleton artifacts can easily be found, but there's more than enough space in the sideboard.
I believe that maybe dropping Gifts Ungiven for Gamble in my list merits testing, because 4cc is just too much sometimes. However, I feel that it's worth testing new things to try to raise the overall power of the deck.
With that in mind, here's the list I'll be testing:
Mana
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Volcanic Island
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Mox Diamond
Singleton Lands
1 Nantuko Monastery
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Academy Ruins
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Strip Mine/Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Nomad Stadium
Engine
4 Exploration
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Horn of Greed
1 Life from the Loam
Lock Pieces
3 Trinisphere
2 Smokestack
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Constant Mists
1 Glacial Chasm
Tutoring
4 Intuition
3 Crop Rotation
2 Gamble
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
Why not play Nether Void over Smokestack?
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
Despite the fact that it looks like you don't need to cast spells, you do. Smokestack is better with the deck total since you can just go through all of thier land through Trinisphere.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
What are the MUs of eternal garden in the new metagame ?
About the list you proposed 94teen :
- I don't get the utility of main deck trinisphere. What spells are you afraid of ?
- what is the need of constant mist (in 1 of moreover) when you play glacial chiasm ? The Glacial Chiasm lock is gg against most of the metagame. You play 4*ancient tomb in order to play it first turn or you really think ancient tomb is a 4-of ?
- why god's eye ? Just for Smokestack ? You usually don't need that...
- why horn of greed ? You usually don't need that to make card advantage. You'd better play another horizon canopy and a cycling land (thicket or steppe) instead of horn*2.
- do you really need gamble ? crop*4 + intuition*4 looks enough. If I was including a red tutor I would certainly take wish.
- I like to play engineered explosives and powder keg, because I can beak powder keg @ 1 without destroying my explorations.
- why play 2 moutain lands ? I'm not even sure you would play a single one if you were not playing gamble.
- I like to play jotun grunt*3 or 4, because it deals with opponent graveyard and recycles cards you cannot get back (non-land and non artifact cards). It also prevents me from decking myself.
- I like to play 1*sensei's divining top because it gives me information about the cards I am going to dredge. Very often I intuition for LftL + ruins + top. Moreover top is never a dead card.
- I like to play 2*Maze of Ith, don't you miss it sometimes ?
- I play also Ghost quarter. I'm not sure I'll keep it though.
Edit : and I forgot but I think that your SB is awful. Rule of Law, for instance is so bad against combo... You cannot rely on a first turn 3 mana spell. You'd better play sphere of resistance.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Maveric78f
What are the MUs of eternal garden in the new metagame ?
About the list you proposed 94teen :
- I don't get the utility of main deck trinisphere. What spells are you afraid of ?
- what is the need of constant mist (in 1 of moreover) when you play glacial chiasm ? The Glacial Chiasm lock is gg against most of the metagame. You play 4*ancient tomb in order to play it first turn or you really think ancient tomb is a 4-of ?
- why god's eye ? Just for Smokestack ? You usually don't need that...
- why horn of greed ? You usually don't need that to make card advantage. You'd better play another horizon canopy and a cycling land (thicket or steppe) instead of horn*2.
- do you really need gamble ? crop*4 + intuition*4 looks enough. If I was including a red tutor I would certainly take wish.
- I like to play engineered explosives and powder keg, because I can beak powder keg @ 1 without destroying my explorations.
- why play 2 moutain lands ? I'm not even sure you would play a single one if you were not playing gamble.
- I like to play jotun grunt*3 or 4, because it deals with opponent graveyard and recycles cards you cannot get back (non-land and non artifact cards). It also prevents me from decking myself.
- I like to play 1*sensei's divining top because it gives me information about the cards I am going to dredge. Very often I intuition for LftL + ruins + top. Moreover top is never a dead card.
- I like to play 2*Maze of Ith, don't you miss it sometimes ?
- I play also Ghost quarter. I'm not sure I'll keep it though.
Edit : and I forgot but I think that your SB is awful. Rule of Law, for instance is so bad against combo... You cannot rely on a first turn 3 mana spell. You'd better play sphere of resistance.
1. Trinisphere- in this deck it is so under-rated considering how the deck is moving more toward prison as opposed to control. Trini also make the Thresh, Breakfast, COMBO match-up so much easier.
2. Constant Mists- is your hard lock against anyone playing wasteland. Even though Chasm is usually game over against most of the format you can still lose to a well timed Wasteland/Ghost Quarter.
3. God's Eye- this is a un-needleable win condition. Yeah it's slow as molasses and doesn't do much else, but it also works with Wasteland/Ghost Quarter if you have the game locked down.
4. Horn of Greed- Horn has actually turned out to be a nice thing especially in the combo match-up. But it's something you don't need to drop ASAP like in Turboland.
5. Red- Alot of people have been pushing out red despite the fact that it gives us the best win condition (Barbarian Ring), I'm going to jump in the bandwagon for now and say red's not needed.
6. Ghost Quarter- I currently play both Wasteland and Ghost Quarter as 1-of's, while Ghost Quarter is slowly not showing how good it could be (since more and more people are playing non-basics as opposed to a balanced set), but I think it's something that is definatly needed.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
I think that red is pretty good - maybe add 1 taiga in the place of one savannah, and replace the cephellid colliseaum with the canopy, and go to... 61 with the barbarian ring?
I put together a pretty terrible multiplayer stax for casual play, with 4 sphere of resistances, 4 intuition, 1 crucible, 1 LFTL, and 1 academy ruins, and aeoliple as my win condition. It functioned pretty awesomely.
Secondly, if you extend into red enough, you could use keldon megaliths as a secondary win condition (look it up - hellbent 1R, T: 1 damage to target creature or player). I tooled around with that as a win in 43 land lately. That's really good, because you have the possiblity of winning through 'yard hate.
That's just what I've got to say.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
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Originally Posted by
Watcher487
1. Trinisphere- in this deck it is so under-rated considering how the deck is moving more toward prison as opposed to control. Trini also make the Thresh, Breakfast, COMBO match-up so much easier.
Trinisphere is certainly a good card, but certainly worse than sphere of resistance for instance, as you can rely on a first turn sphere but not on a first turn trini.
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2. Constant Mists- is your hard lock against anyone playing wasteland. Even though Chasm is usually game over against most of the format you can still lose to a well timed Wasteland/Ghost Quarter.
It's a hard lock as 1-of that is very narrow, that can be countered and lost forever, and that you can't even tutor.
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3. God's Eye- this is a un-needleable win condition. Yeah it's slow as molasses and doesn't do much else, but it also works with Wasteland/Ghost Quarter if you have the game locked down.
Juste play EE or keg, or like me both and you'll never get needled EE, keg, ghostquarter (no mana means essentially no blocker with tabernacle), barbarian ring and cephalid coliseum (nice vistory condition against cephalid breakfast ^^.
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4. Horn of Greed- Horn has actually turned out to be a nice thing especially in the combo match-up. But it's something you don't need to drop ASAP like in Turboland.
Very narrow once more. and I don't see why drawing from the 3rd turn will give you the advantage against combo.
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5. Red- Alot of people have been pushing out red despite the fact that it gives us the best win condition (Barbarian Ring), I'm going to jump in the bandwagon for now and say red's not needed.
I don't want to remove barbarian ring. Mox diamond is good at giving red. And once you have the control of the board, you can draw your library, included your diamonds (you also play academy ruins).
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6. Ghost Quarter- I currently play both Wasteland and Ghost Quarter as 1-of's, while Ghost Quarter is slowly not showing how good it could be (since more and more people are playing non-basics as opposed to a balanced set), but I think it's something that is definatly needed.
Ok.
On the paper, I find that the deck is superior to cephalid breakfast (glacial chiasm or maze of ith owns cephalid breakfast, as well as STP which I play 4-of).
It's superior to most of combo decks (all the ones playing EtW as their main win condition) : glacial chiasm, EE, keg, tabernacle... Against belcher we have a difficult to tutor pithing MD but glacial chiasm gives you time to find it. Post-board, I don't see what they can do. go aggro won't help them.
Against Gobs, wasteland is you main problem, but they can't recur them contrarily to you and tabernacle in play just wins the game. Post board, Chalice@2 + tinkerers can help them to struggle against the tabernacle recursion. As we can also recur the artifacts, it's going to be really really difficult for them...
My main concern is the Tarmhold because a counterspell on mox diamond or on a crop rotation can be very harmful. Finally, you are the one that can be the more mana denied in that MU, because they play wasteland and stifle. Once you found Life From the Loam and the mana to play it, you have almost won the game, but this may never happen.
Another concern about the deck is the SB. I find the ones here very poor, but I cannot imagin one better. I would surely play defense grid as 4-of. I would also complete my set of needles, and I would try to find a good response to ichorid. The new Teeg would be good against combo and in this case the rest of my SB would be kegs.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
Alright, I've been away for awhile, but I have a little time for some discussion of this awesome deck.
Trinisphere over Sphere of Resistance was a conscious choice on my part for the following reason: Trinisphere doesn't mess around with my cards' costs. Not only is it less symmetrical, but that 4th mana for an intuition or a crucible is a much bigger deal than you'd think against lots of decks.
You're missing the point with Horn of Greed. Using Horizon Canopy and Cycle Lands, while really good, consumes resources every time you use them. Horn of greed consumes some resources, but quickly replaces itself. YOu never have to invest in it again as long as you can keep it on the table. If you don't like horn of greed, I'd suggest Thirst for Knowledge or something similar, but personally, I'd keep it as at least a 1 of, because it ends so many games as soon as it resolves.
Gods' Eye is an amazing sideboard card as far as I'm concerned. It's slow, but it has unbelievable inevitability. I don't think it merits maindeck inclusion, but definitely at least a singleton in the sideboard.
I'm liking the red splash less and less, regardless of how good Barbarian Ring is. Gamble is pretty good, but honestly, I prefer Gifts Ungiven (which is pretty good in this deck btw). I've said it before, and I'll say it again, resolving one Gifts Ungiven or Intuition is good, and gets your engine running. Resolving a second ends the game. I hear that tutoring for any 3 or 4 cards in your deck for that much mana is pretty good.
With all the cards you draw, Constant Mists shows up when you need it. If you're consciously trying to get it, you'll usually find it in time. Your lock pieces slow the opponent down long enough that you can dig for it or find a few relevant pieces of removal before the opponent's wasteland becomes relevant. Though constant mists can be countered, you don't use it in matchups where your opponent has counters. That's what the uncounterable Glacial Chasm is for. You use Constant Mists as a wasteland-proof version of Glacial Chasm. There aren't too many decks that run both Wasteland and counterspells.
Hopefully I've provided some adequate reasoning for my card selections, and some food for thought and discussion.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
I like the idea of land based prison. I threw this deck together when i saw Di top 8 at Eli's tournament. I replaced a few cards so the deck has more of a control aspect. Also a singleton vesuva has ben broken for me.
MANANA(33):
1 Maze of Ith
1 Tabernacle
1 Glacial chasm
1 riftstone portal
1 Nomad stadium
1 cephalid colliseum
3 wasteland
1 Rishadn port
1 vesuva
1 mishra's factory
4 Savannah
3 tropical island
4 Windswept heath
2 nantuko monastery
4 Ancient tomb
4 mox diamond
Utility:
4 exploration
3 crucible
1 LFTL
3 crop rotation
3 Intuition
Control:
2 Smokestack
3 trinisphere
3 Humility
3 engineered explosives
3 swords
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
Wow lots of replies here. I'll try to get to everything even if anyone else responded to it.
Also for the record, my list that I ran at Eli's was near-perfect. I was very impressed with how strong the deck was and would've won the event had I not played like a retard in the top4. I'll post what was good/bad on the list as well as my current one at the bottom of my post.
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What are the MUs of eternal garden in the new metagame ?
About the list you proposed 94teen :
- I don't get the utility of main deck trinisphere. What spells are you afraid of ?
- what is the need of constant mist (in 1 of moreover) when you play glacial chiasm ? The Glacial Chiasm lock is gg against most of the metagame. You play 4*ancient tomb in order to play it first turn or you really think ancient tomb is a 4-of ?
- why god's eye ? Just for Smokestack ? You usually don't need that...
- why horn of greed ? You usually don't need that to make card advantage. You'd better play another horizon canopy and a cycling land (thicket or steppe) instead of horn*2.
- do you really need gamble ? crop*4 + intuition*4 looks enough. If I was including a red tutor I would certainly take wish.
- I like to play engineered explosives and powder keg, because I can beak powder keg @ 1 without destroying my explorations.
- why play 2 moutain lands ? I'm not even sure you would play a single one if you were not playing gamble.
- I like to play jotun grunt*3 or 4, because it deals with opponent graveyard and recycles cards you cannot get back (non-land and non artifact cards). It also prevents me from decking myself.
- I like to play 1*sensei's divining top because it gives me information about the cards I am going to dredge. Very often I intuition for LftL + ruins + top. Moreover top is never a dead card.
- I like to play 2*Maze of Ith, don't you miss it sometimes ?
- I play also Ghost quarter. I'm not sure I'll keep it though.
Edit : and I forgot but I think that your SB is awful. Rule of Law, for instance is so bad against combo... You cannot rely on a first turn 3 mana spell. You'd better play sphere of resistance.
Matchups are currently the main reason to play this deck. It's really unfair how stupid this is:
Threshold: Any flavor, whether it be UG, UGW, UGR, whatever. You have a very solid matchup. UG is a bit harder due to Wasteland and Stifle, but still a breeze. You have more bombs than they have counters, and play retarded control against them. You have Chasm-lock, Trinisphere, Humility, recurring Engineered Explosives, Smokestack, etc. Actually, the entire deck is good here. Maze of Ith > Tarmogoyf. Plain and simple. Post-board, Chalice of the Void brings it over the top.
Cephalid Breakfast: Pretty much same as Threshold, but a little harder because they can randomly win. Still, you have insane outs against them. If they don't run Abeyance, Crop Rotation -> Maze of Ith is game. They also scoop to Chasm-lock, EE is retardedly good, and so is Trinisphere. Wasteland recursion against a deck without basics is retarded too. Soo easy post-board as well. Needle, Meddling Mage, Chalice and recurring Tormod's Crypt make me a happy panda.
Fish: A Threshold deck without Tarmogoyf? Sign me up! It's easy enough with the damn thing, it's a bye without.
Landstill: Deck's favorite matchup. You are the better control deck because you don't have near as many dead cards, and have too many bombs for them to deal with. Pernicious Deed builds can be annoying at times, but Academy Ruins is retarded. They can't kill you nearly fast enough for you to not regain board position. Nightmare summed this up in his UGW Landstill article rather well, something the likes of, "Landstill's auto-lose."
Belcher: Easiest of the combo decks. If they Charbelcher you game 1, you probably lose. Otherwise, you probably win. You have Explosives and Crop Rotation -> Tabernacle for Empty the Warrens, and Trinisphere forces them to scoop. Post-board, Chalice, Meddling Mage, and Needle make this much better, but you still have the random lose to Charbelcher factor.
Goblins: This matchup is slightly favorable to slightly unfavorable depending on the build. Wasteland is annoying on Chasm, but otherwise you can easily deal with what they have. Humility is the tits, and Tabernacle is incredibly strong too. If you're able to stick a Crucible, the game isn't that hard.
Any other aggro deck: Breeze, for the most part. Black-based aggro can be troublesome if they can slow you down and throw a fatty on the table and keep you off 3 mana. Otherwise that's about it. White decks are a complete joke, and most of the Tarmogoyf builds are laughable because Tabernacle > their deck.
Ichorid: I don't have much testing with it, so I can't gauge how the matchup is. They occasionally have the nuts, but otherwise they probably lose. Explosives is retarded here, and they scoop to Chasm-lock. Trinisphere is also pretty sweet too if you manage it. Post-board they bring Leyline if it isn't maindeck which makes things tricky, but if you can get around that the recurring Tormod's Crypt makes life easy.
TES: Bad. They have Orim's Chant to stall you into not playing Trinisphere which is highly annoying, and kill with Tendrils. Post-board you bring in a lot, which brings it around 45-55% their favor, but it's still rough.
Iggy: They don't combo until like turn 3 on the norm, giving you all the time in the world to get Trinisphere. I slaughtered Iggy Pop in the top8 of Eli's DLD both games. He really didn't have much of a chance. Post-board it's just dumb. Their 2-3 bounce spells have a hard time against all the crap you bring in.
Enchantress: Worst matchup ever. They outpermanent you like 60-1, so those Smokestacks don't get you very far. Replenish is teh gayz.
Are there other relevant matchups I didn't cover?
1. Trinisphere is their for game1 against combo. Also happens to be absolutely retarded against 97% of the format. I tested Sphere of Resistance in this slot for a long time but eventually hated it because it made all my 3cc spells cost 4c, which is a pain in the ass. The fact that Trinisphere is almost completely one-sided makes it superior in this deck.
2. Constant Mists allows you to not entirely rely on Chasm. Wasteland ruins that plan sometimes.
3. I cut God's Eye from my list. You can see that below, with comments.
4. Stax decks suck because they have no concept of card advantage. No, Sylvan Library is not card advantage. In a deck playing lands every turn, using Horn of Greed makes it retarded to keep your hand full against decks that need it. It's much easier to draw into three new threats every turn rather than rely on a single one on the board.
5. Red isn't necessary in the deck. Going to 4c isn't worth the manabase strain, and it isn't nearly as good as white. White is retarded.
6. Powder Keg takes an entire turn to kill and Aether Vial, and two to kill a Tarmogoyf. That is too slow. Losing Explorations is much better than losing the game.
7. Running creatures is a poor strategy in a deck running Humility. The sole exception is Meddling Mage, as an answer to Tendrils of Agony and combo. I've contemplated Tarmogoyf, but opt not to run him as my matchups against decks I'd side it in against are already good enough. Also, you can prevent decking yourself by using Academy Ruins.
8. Sensei's Divining Top is a fine suggestion. I'll try it out.
9. A 2nd Maze of Ith is another land that doesn't tap for mana. There are occasional issues with this. Crop Rotation finds it just fine anyway.
10. I presume decks to be running more and more basics now due to how retarded Wasteland is currently, so Ghost Quarter is a bad call.
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It's a hard lock as 1-of that is very narrow, that can be countered and lost forever, and that you can't even tutor.
Constant Mists is an iffy slot. I run it as a personal backup, but there are various replacements for it. As a matter of fact, I did replace it in my current list, which will be mentioned below.
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Very narrow once more. and I don't see why drawing from the 3rd turn will give you the advantage against combo.
Horn of Greed narrow? In a land-based deck? I'm not following you. I'll agree I don't understand the combo advantage as you generally die by then, but it's card advantage engine is insane. For what it's worth though, this deck almost always has 3 mana by the second turn between Mox, Ancient Tomb, Exploration, and Crop Rotation.
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Against Gobs, wasteland is you main problem, but they can't recur them contrarily to you and tabernacle in play just wins the game. Post board, Chalice@2 + tinkerers can help them to struggle against the tabernacle recursion. As we can also recur the artifacts, it's going to be really really difficult for them...
Goblins, admittedly one of the harder matchups, is fortunately on a serious decline in the metagame.
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Another concern about the deck is the SB. I find the ones here very poor, but I cannot imagin one better. I would surely play defense grid as 4-of. I would also complete my set of needles, and I would try to find a good response to ichorid. The new Teeg would be good against combo and in this case the rest of my SB would be kegs.
My sideboard for Eli's DLD was as follows:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Constant Mists
Why exactly is this poor? It deals with basically anything you can expect to see, and worked wonderfully for me. Also, Teeg is a HORRIBLE choice for this deck's sideboard. It stops you from playing Explosives, Smokestack, Chalice of the Void, and Humility. The cards you are worried about are stopped just fine by Meddling Mage without the possibility of screwing you over in the process.
Now that all of that is out of the way, here is my current list:
4 Exploration
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Crop Rotation
3 Intuition
2 Horn of Greed
1 Life from the Loam
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Trinisphere
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Humility
2 Smokestack
1 Meekstone
4 Mox Diamond
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Wasteland
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Tabernacle
1 Academy Ruins
1 Maze of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Nomad Stadium
1 Mishra's Factory
2 Nantuko Monastery
Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Meddling Mage
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Meekstone
The only changes from this list and my top4 list are:
-1 God's Eye
-2 Constant Mists (1 sb)
+1 Mishra's Factory
+1 Meekstone (1sb)
God's Eye never really did anything for me but I saw it a lot. During those times I could've been attacking/blocking. I really overestimated the card. Factory also eases the fact that I need threshold and GW open for Monastery.
Meekstone is absolutely retarded in the format right now. It keeps Nimble Mongoose and Tarmogoyf locked down. Goblins is on a decline to the point that Constant Mists isn't necessary. This thing can get Intuitioned for and recurred with Academy Ruins, which is amazing. I'm not sure if it'll be staying for good, but right now with all the Tarmogoyfs running around, I'm really liking the slot. Ensnaring Bridge is another choice, but that has the possibility of being completely negated if you're working with Life from the Loam or Horn of Greed. Still, it warrants testing.
Re: [Deck] 5c Eternal Garden
I have to say Di, that's an amazing build as far as I'm concerned. It's not necessarily my style of play, but that looks like a great deck.
Meekstone is an amazing find on your part. That's absolutely retarded against most of the decks in the format, and I never would have found it on my own.
I've been advocating Mishra's Factory over the second monastery for awhile now, and I'm glad you've seen the light :tongue: . IYou're still playing the second monastery, but you've dropped the Gods' Eye, which I agree with also. Gods' Eye is a really cool idea, but it's terrible in practice, kinda like Zuran Orb, which completely pales in comparison to nomad stadium. The only upside to orb is that it "combos" with glacial chasm and other lands, so you can gain more life at instant speed (not that it typically matters).
I'd probably run moat over Humility (at least one of them), but that's mostly because I just got myself a moat, and I really want to play it a couple times.
The only thing that I find myself questioning is that you aren't using playsets of intuition and/or crop rotation. My builds usually started with 4 intuition and 2 gifts ungiven as backup. Maybe that's just the way I like to play, but I found that resolving the second copy of either of those just ended the game. I'm not sure how I'd try to make that work though, because this build is really, really solid. Maybe lose the Humilities or one or two STPs to add the extra tutoring, since that would let you set up recurring engineered explosives sooner, but I really wouldn't want to do that...
So basically, my post in short:
1) I really, really like this iteration of the deck
2) Meekstone is amazing!
3) Do you have enough intuitions?/Is Gifts Ungiven worth testing?
