[Deck] The Truffle Shuffle

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Originally Posted by Cait_Sith

Is the 10 turn clock of witness really that impressive. It dies to almost half your removal and any form oh chumpage.

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While I personally do not like Witness in my maindeck, I have also never really had a problem using Scarabs or Gigapede as my kill condition. However. That is not to say that Witness would be terrible in the maindeck, and certainly merits more than this reply. Witness is obviously more than a ten-turn clock, and most creatures die to my removal. As far as 'any form oh chumpage,' I have no idea how to interpret that. If I wanted to speed up my clock, I would include Heirarch maindeck.

[edit]Lego Army Man got there first, but my post still says something more or less.[/edit]

I've been playing with this deck and I'm finding the Scarabs to be less than impressive. I'd almost always rather have Gigapede or Hierach.

Gigapede is more 'bulletproof' than Scarab. The both cost five but Scarab effectively costs 6 if you want to play it a keep it safe from a single Swords. (not to mention two, which isn't terribly unlikely given the low amount of threats). Then, in later turns, you're also forced to keep an additional mana open that could be being used to Top. Additionaly, when it comes to recurring, with Gigapede I'm not forced to choose between blindly milling away a potentially good card or returning it. I can just toss the useless fodder without losing a potentially good draw. Then, of course, I'll always take the 6/1 body over the 4/4 anyday.

I'm not arguing for more Gigapedes, I think two is a good number, but rather more Hierachs instead of Scarabs. Or even Baloths. I know they AREN'T bulletproof, but that's what Gigapede gives us. Packing a bunch of 4/4s for 4 are good way to just win some games faster. (Knowing this problem all too well from Wombat) Also, it seems that in the MUs where you would want recurrable threats for the long game, you've also got Echoes to do the job in addition to the Gigapedes.

I'm think there are better options than a recurring 4/4 for 5 given the already strong resiliency of the deck. [Plus having Scarab means E.Plague naming Insect is just that much more effective.... hardy har.] Any arguments in favor of the Grave-Shell?

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Originally Posted by torgar

Gigapede is more 'bulletproof' than Scarab. The both cost five but Scarab effectively costs 6 if you want to play it a keep it safe from a single Swords. (not to mention two, which isn't terribly unlikely given the low amount of threats). Then, in later turns, you're also forced to keep an additional mana open that could be being used to Top. Additionaly, when it comes to recurring, with Gigapede I'm not forced to choose between blindly milling away a potentially good card or returning it. I can just toss the useless fodder without losing a potentially good draw. Then, of course, I'll always take the 6/1 body over the 4/4 anyday.

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I haven't played the deck enough to advocate either Insect, but I'd like to correct a couple of erroneous assumptions you made in this post:

1) When you sacrifice Scarab, it goes to your graveyard as part of the cost. Therefore, you don't ever need more than one mana to protect it from an arbitrary number of StP. If they try to play a second StP in response to your use of its ability, they will lack a target since the Scarab is already gone.
2) The chance of dredging good cards is an incorrect argument to use. The card you'd rather draw is just as likely to be on top of your deck as it is to be the second from the top, right? Therefore, dredging Scarab is just as likely to improve your draws as it is to worsen them.
Also, assuming decking isn't a concern, dredging is in general a positive thing, simply because it gives you more information about what remains in your deck, which will help you make better play decisions.
Finally, there is the helpful interaction with Sensei's Divining Top (set it up to dredge away bad cards).

For a better explanation of point #2, see this article.

Ah I see. I stand corrected about the double StP point.

However, the point about the dredge still is valid. I read the article, and the point is you have to make a decision whether or not you want the Scarab or card X without knowing what it is. If you're facing down a horde of Goblins, Scarab is clearly better than a land, but you'd probably rather have Damanation or Infest.

In the example thats posed, the card you dredge away may or may not be any better card than the next card on top of your library after you dredge. That doesn't take into account that the dredge still replaces the draw and the card you end up drawing, you draw on your next turn, a turn later...

With a Top in play, I'd agree Scarab is better than without cause you can see and then dredge away useless stuff. But again, it still costs you your draw, so the effect would be the just the same as pitching the useless card you would draw to a Gigapede the next turn. Although I suppose dredge can allow you to did deeper with the top.

Gigapede gives you the option to choose what you exchange it for, regardless of whether or not there's a Top.

The more important point I think, is that it's effect on the board is a 4/4. There are much better 4/4s for cheaper in Hiearch and Baloth. I think the long-term resiliency of Gigapede and end game of Echoes means it'd be better to opt for the more efficient solution to aggro/burn life-loss with life-gain plus beatstick of equal size.

I'm testing this deck and I have to say that here Scarab is better than Hearach or Baloth, with or without Top in play. Scarab simply is a semi-infinite 4/4 in your hand and this is really good for a deck that win in the long term. You are not forced to dredge for it as you are not forced to discard for Gigapede but if you need a creature you are sure that next turn you'll play it.

I can't find three creatures that fit better than Gigapede, Scarab and Krosan Tusker in this deck. :P

I know, my english is really bad. I apologize. ^^'

Bye!

In light of the recent decline of Solidarity, is it now feasible to move the Blessings from the MD to the board? I would like to try a few Heirarchs in favour of the Blessings and maybe one Duress/Condemn in the maindeck to give us a better clock. In all my testing, the biggest problem for Truffle Shuffle is aggro-control decks with a substantial creature base that can slow-play their threats against you while you can't apply a fast enough clock to stop them. Particularly decks like MeatHooks and Hannifish can do this well, and using Damnation and Deed as a 1-for-1 gets very disheartening after a while. I would appreciate Jack Elgin's more recent permutations and opinions on this deck very much.

I second that. Also, Blessing is really not that strong against a competent Solidarity player anyway. I've seen people win through it all the time. Also, you have to make room for Glittering Wish somehow. Although I suppose moving 4-ofs down to 3-ofs to put 1 of them in the board could do that.

In summary, this deck should run Glittering Wish.

Yeah, Blessing doesn't really actually do a whole lot. It won't stop Solidarity, that's for sure. Shuffling back good cards and hoping to draw them again is less good than just getting the card back to your hand, I think. Also Witness can, like, chumpblock or something I guess. Not really that big a deal but it still counts.

Also, a tutor for Pernicious Deed, Vindicate, Hierarch, and Grave-Shell seems saucy. Maybe add 1x Gerrard's Verdict to the board for some tutorable discard as well?

I don't know about Glittering Wish, I don't think a wishboard is what this deck wants. You're more focused on having cards that you want to side out and in, and using Top/shuffle to find the cards that you need in your deck. It does warrant testing, however.

In my opinion wish-sideboard are generally terrible. Gaea's Blessing is sometimes useful cause is the only grave-hate card that you play maindeck and is also useful against solidarity. I should consider using Extirpate that is really strong against blue decks and decks that use the grave.

So, may be -2 Gaea's Blessing
+2 Extirpate

Bye!

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Originally Posted by Khepri

So, may be -2 Gaea's Blessing
+2 Extirpate

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I hope that you're talking about the SB somehow, because MD extirpates would be much worse than the blessings. I'm going to tentatively say that we play Heirarchs in the MD until Jack gives us the creator's opinion.

Jack will probably tell you that Solidarity doesn't have a large enough presence to warrant 2 to 3 maindeck cards devoted to beating it, but let me clarify something real quick:

Gaea's Blessing does help against Solidarity. Without it main, you have an abysmal chance to beat them game 1, but with it you're much closer to 50/50, and post-board you've got a great shot. The reason for this is that you pack a good amount of disruption, but a very slow clock. You can usually put the hurts on Solidarity, but many turns later, Solidarity is able to recover just enough to hit a lethal Brain Freeze the turn before you win. 3x Gaea's Blessing means that after your disruption, they have to Stroke you out, or hit a couple of Brain Freezes followed by a Stroke. With no disruption, this is simple as heck to do, but after a Duress, a Hymn to Tourach, and a Vindicate, it becomes much harder to do. Add in Cabal Therapy, Eternal Witness, and Loxodon Hierarch out of the board, and you may even be pretty favored.

That's not to say that it should be played (the Solidarity presence doesn't warrant it in most places) but it can be an effective answer in this deck.

Now that we aggree that Blessing needs to be replaced, what shall be its successor? Fast combo decks like TES will obviously be the biggest problem, and our MD disruption will help, but a quicker clock is more important, I believe. Heirarch seems nice, but I'm sure at least one person will say Spiritmonger.

Gaea's Blessing wasn't a backbreaker against Solidarity, but it did shore up the matchup while having synergy with a number of elements in the deck. I have kind of wanted to run something stronger in it's place for a while, but as the 3 slot was clogged, I wanted to make sure it was something that cost 2 or less. I think Glittering Wish could easily solidify the decklist. I'm currently playtesting the following version;


Land:
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
3 Scrubland
3 Polluted Delta
4 Windswept Heath
3 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures:
4 Krosan Tusker
2 Gigapede

Spells:
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Duress
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Condemn
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Glittering Wish
3 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Damnation
1 Haunting Echoes

Wish Targets:
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Grave-Shell Scarab
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Vindicate
1 Culling Sun
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Gerrard's Verdict
1 Crime/Punishment

Other Sideboard Cards:
4 Eternal Witness
3 Cabal Therapy




I never really felt that Scarab was weaker than Gigapede, as the two are strong in different matchups, with Gigapede being better against Solidarity and Threshold and Scarab being stronger against Goblins. But with Glittering WIsh, there's certainly no need to run the Scarabs main.

So far this build actually seems more, rather than less, consistent than the non-Wish version.

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...
1 Culling Sun
...
1 Gerrard's Verdict
....
1 Crime/Punishment

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I can't find any Reason to Play Deed, Culling Sun and C/P in the Board, because Deed does eveything, the other two Spells do even more efficient.
You are also able to wish Vindicate to find a solution for Needle on Deed.

Further Verdict seems redundant to me, if you really want to play a Discard Spell in the SB you should think about Castigate.

I want a certain level of redundancy with my Wish targets. You run 4, and you don't really want the second and third one you happen to draw to be dead.

How about playing Mortify and Putrefy next to Vindicate, Deed and C/P in the sideboard?

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

I want a certain level of redundancy with my Wish targets. You run 4, and you don't really want the second and third one you happen to draw to be dead.

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I just can't belive, that that much Massremoval is needed, you run 6 Massremoval MD + Top wich is able to generate an incedible Card Quality and to find everything you need.

It might be possible to cut either the Culling Sun or the Crime/Punishment for a different card, although I'm not sure which or what exactly I would want to fit in there... possibly some sort of late game bomb like Phantom Nishoba or Death Grasp.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Gaea's Blessing wasn't a backbreaker against Solidarity, but it did shore up the matchup while having synergy with a number of elements in the deck. I have kind of wanted to run something stronger in it's place for a while, but as the 3 slot was clogged, I wanted to make sure it was something that cost 2 or less. I think Glittering Wish could easily solidify the decklist. I'm currently playtesting the following version;


Land:
4 Bayou
3 Savannah
3 Scrubland
3 Polluted Delta
4 Windswept Heath
3 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Plains

Creatures:
4 Krosan Tusker
2 Gigapede

Spells:
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Duress
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Condemn
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Glittering Wish
3 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Damnation
1 Haunting Echoes

Wish Targets:
1 Loxodon Hierarch
1 Grave-Shell Scarab
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Vindicate
1 Culling Sun
1 Dueling Grounds
1 Gerrard's Verdict
1 Crime/Punishment

Other Sideboard Cards:
4 Eternal Witness
3 Cabal Therapy




I never really felt that Scarab was weaker than Gigapede, as the two are strong in different matchups, with Gigapede being better against Solidarity and Threshold and Scarab being stronger against Goblins. But with Glittering WIsh, there's certainly no need to run the Scarabs main.

So far this build actually seems more, rather than less, consistent than the non-Wish version.

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Don't you think that the deck may be weaker against counter decks if you only play 2 Gigapede and no main Scarabs? I think that 4 Glittering Wish in the main deck aren't so solid agains a counter deck. If your opponent counters your Scarab you can use dredge next turn but if your opponent counters your Glittering Wish you haven't a second chance. Yes, of course against non-blue decks I'm sure Glittering Wish works fine but i think VS blue decks it isn't so strong.