I, for what it's worth, haven't liked Burning Wish in my testing either. I don't quite feel that a utility control deck is exactly what this deck is. It feels more like a very slow combo deck with early prison/control elements.
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I, for what it's worth, haven't liked Burning Wish in my testing either. I don't quite feel that a utility control deck is exactly what this deck is. It feels more like a very slow combo deck with early prison/control elements.
Burning Wish is really only good when it is drawn in a hand of Exploration with no Manabond. You really can't count on drawing too many spells once you get LftL. Even then, in a hand of Exploration and land, Mulch seems like it would be just as effective, if not more at digging deeper for land, while simultaneously being able to find LftL.
However, I take Sacha's word pretty heavily, as he IS the creator. I will definitely put more effort into testing B. Wish, and probably Megalith as well, but I don't expect much...
The one problem I ran into without Burning Wish was an extreme vulnerability to Extirpate, which is pretty rampant around where I play. Burning Wish lets you recover from Exie quite nicely. But I agree that it struggles to fit into the mode of the deck sometimes.
Keldon Megaliths is a different story, though. I heart the Megaliths. I've won many a game by defending and throwing single points of damage in the opponent's face. I still like a single Ring, however, as the ability to pick off the ever annoying Meddling Mage is worth the inclusion.
In my list, I run 2 Megaliths and 2 Barbarian Ring. The ability of the Megaliths has won me many games, from killing opposing Dark Confidants, to simply ping for 1 every turn, and the ever favorite of dealing that 1 extra damage to a creature that blocked your manland.
-T
I honestly can't think of many decks that run MD Extripate. After SB, you bring in your Chalices to set at one.
Megaliths definitely deserves testing, however, it might be troublesome to find two spots from my GenCon list. 1-2 Rings HAVE to stay...
I'm curious as to see people's non-wish boards...My most recent one is the following:
4x Chalice of the Void
3x Armageddon
3x Engineered Explosives
3x Tormod's Crypt
2x Ancient Grudge
Of course, this is a non-meta specific board. This would be the board as I would bring it to GenCon, or another huge Legacy tournament.
As usual, if you have any other questions about the deck, I love talking about this deck, and its strategies so feel free to post or even PM me.
- Ryan Trepanier
I completely disagree with peoples' assessment of burning wish. It is fantastic in this deck. Not only does it get loam (which is so much more important than people seem to think, I'll get to this later) but it can get all sorts of other goodies that can really make a big difference in a game. My current wish targets include Loam, Mulch, Regrowth (wow, this card is nuuuts), Hull Breach, Gamble, Pyroclasm, and a few other things that I can't remember right now (deck is with a friend), but the versatility that BWish gives has saved me innumerable times. I would go into specific situations but there are just too many.
Now onto the point of it getting loam. I can't believe that an argument people are using against it is that it costs you a turn of doing nothing / it doesn't get anything relevant. How bout it costs you a turn to get the most important card in your entire deck. 3 Gamble and 4 loam is NOT enough to ensure that you get it consistently, especially against decks with counter magic. Do you think that any aggro-control player in their right mind is going to let your gamble resolve? Hell no. And then what? You just sit and draw a single card a turn doing very little while they build up their board and smash you. Even if you wasteland them a couple times or port down their lands or chump block their guys, without loam you will most likely lose. Mulch is terrible for the opposite reason Burning Wish is amazing: Mulch doesn't find loam for sure. It will help you find loam because it shows you 4 more cards, it will give you more time to live, and it will certainly give you more land, but if those loams are sitting near the bottom of your deck then you will not get to them in time. Mulch is a temporaty solution to a problem that isn't going away. Loam is the solution. Burning wish finds the solution NOW, and then you will start drawing all the cards and lands you need with its help, so who the hell needs mulch?
Finally, Burning Wish pwns extirpate. I know we all know this, I just felt that I couldn't leave it out of the list of good things about burning wish.
Kronicler
Considering Tiago Chan won the invitational and his card submission was:
Denying Channel
Land
T: Add to your mana pool.
2UU, Discard Denying Channel: Counter target spell.
does anyone have some suggestions for splashing blue? Having a counterspell every turn on top of the Wastelands/Ports and Manlands seems like it could be some good...
Considering that card is pretty awful in its current form, I doubt it will see print as is.
(Not that Kronicler's avatar indicates any bias...)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kronicler
I am said friend in possession of Kronicler's deck, which I piloted into the top-8 of a 21 person tourney at our local shop (after having played only a couple of practice games with the deck ever), only to lose in the top 8 to my very best matchup -- 4 color zoo.
Kronicler's 43 (er, 42) land wishboard also features 1 Molten Disaster, 1 Armageddon, and 1 Devestating Dreams (the non-wish board was 4 chalice and 2 ancient grudge).
I agree with Kronicler that the ability of burning wish to find loam and answers outweighs the cost of slowing down the deck. Burning wishes functions as artifact and enchantment destruction and board clearering, frees up vital space maindeck, and finds loam (key!).
That said, burning wish is slow and anti-tempo. Its noteworthy that I lost game 3 of the top 8 against zoo (!), where I drew 3 consecutive burning wishes versus turn 0 leyline followed by bob and tarmogoyf. Notwithstanding my ability to find "answers", I just couldn't recover from the slow start. I'm therefore not sure B-wish belongs as a 4 of (as it is in Kronicler's current build) -- perhaps 3 would be better (see Sascha build).
I think Dissolution may be on to something cutting white. Playing white ONLY for Nantuko Monestary (and Geddon in the board) seems weak. Monestaries are great, but often seemed win-more. Unlike factories they didn't keep me from taking early damage, and once I got to threshhold with my dredge engine going they just helped me end the game quicker (admittedly they were key in one match where I was racing very bad combo). Cutting white makes room for basic lands (key against bloodmoon effects, which could be very good now), and Keldon Megaliths. Extra bodies (if needed) could be found in a full set of Treetop Villages (if you're not already playing them all), Ghitu encampments, or even the green Genju.
However, I think the deck might want more enchantment removal (perhaps ray of revelation?) which weighs in favor of white. The two matches I lost were both to enchantments -- counterbalance and leyline of the void specifically. Ray seems strong v. counterbalance -- even if its countered at first it lies in wait in your graveyard for instant-speed removal at the opportune time. Wishing for hull breach to remove counterbalance is almost certanly futile. I also found that LotV was crippling, and against even modestly speedy agro b-wish --> hull breach followed by B-wish --> board clearer was too slow. More ways to deal would have been nice.
Another thing I found annoying was the heavy red in my wishboard. I often found myself with only 1 red in play in the early turns, which meant pyroclasm was the only answer I could cast. Tarmogoyf was tough to deal with, unless I'd found maze of ith. (Leyline + Tarmogoyf + bob is how the zoo deck beat me both games, although I admittedly drew suboptimally).
Has Kronicler (or anyone else) considered Rolling Earthquake in lieu of Pyroclasm or Molten Disaster? I'd think the ability to clear the board (including tarmogoyfs) with a single red source in play is worthy of consideration.
Finally, I really wanted access to lifegain after sideboard. Against even modest burn (e.g. 4 lightning bolts) you risk being knocked to low life and burned out in the long game. Sascha has 2 zuran orb in his side, which seems good (just 1 might be ok with gambles & wishes). Another techy (but likely inferior) option is genju of the field (remember the multiple activations trick).
Anyhow, just some random thoughts from a total 43 land noob...
Alright, a couple things to address. I think people fail to realize there is a pretty effective way to find Loam, or to find a way to find it...MULLIGAN. Please tell me, what kind of hand are you going to keep if you don't have Loam, or a way to find it? You should not keep 6 Land, Manabond or Exploration hands (unless your hand is all man lands, in which case you go super aggro). That being said, if you are able to burning wish for any of your SB cards, what are you actually in need of? You obviously have the Loam going....everything else is win more. You pawn aggro, you pawn aggro control, and lose to combo. That's the way it works. If you want a Wish Board, play Aggro Loam. If not, play 43 Land. The more spells you rely on, the weaker your deck becomes...That being said, Mulch is pretty effective at digging 4 deep, AND getting you critical lands.
Regarding Extripate, I've already gave you my opinion. Chalice for 1. That pawns Extripate too. Also, in a large scale tournament, Extripate souldn't be a concern. There aren't many black decks, and the ones that do play black play Leyline, not Extripate. Threshold is the number one deck. Extripate does nothing against it, Leyline o the other hand is quite effective.
Regarding the sideboard: Ray of Revelation deserves at least two spots, maybe three... I am not sure which card is better: Ancient Grudge, or Ray... It's a choice between Leyline or Grudge. However, Grudge can be played from the graveyard, Ray can't (because Leyline's in play), so it might make more sense to run 3 Ray, 2 Grudge.
Regarding cutting white: NO! White is extremely important. Nantuko Monastery is a house, and it doesn't hurt the mana at all...the mana in this deck is fine, stop crying wolf!
Dealing with Tarmogoyf: Removal is unecessary and win more. Maze deals with him attacking, and Monastery + Barbarian Ring or Megaliths deals with him as a blocker. Also, you don't need to attack to win...remember that...
I don't want to sound condescending, but Top 8ing a 21 person tournament is not much of an accomplishment and doesn't really prove that your build is good, or even better than the other ones out there. However, I'm just giving my 2 cents, take it with a grain of salt.
I've played less than 20 games with this deck, which was handed to me right before the tourney (and I had zero input on the build), so of course I'm no expert! My "success" (if ultimately losing to a great matchup can be called that) had little to do with me and everything to do with the dirth of combo at the tourney.Quote:
Originally Posted by rureddy31
That said, my view may be skewed in favor of burning wish because I have played agro loam, so I'm used to the wishboard. However, mulligans are never a good thing, and if you play only 7 loams (4 loam, 3 gamble, because you can't count mulch), you will be mulliganing more often than you would with burning wish. And as Kronicler points out relying on a 1 gamble hand against control & agro-control isn't ideal, as they will actively counter your gamble -- yes you can play around daze, but that gives them more time to find force of will (and may play into counterbalance).
You do have a point about the (non)utility of the wishboard. Playing 3 (!) board clearing effects in the wishboard of a deck that's already so stong v. agro does smack of win-more. And I'm not aware of any good potential wish targets against combo in red, green or white (other than 'geddon, which is only really stong versus the near-extinct solidarity).
And I wonder -- in my 3 burning-wish loss to zoo (only 1 was in my opening hand), if those had been mulch I might have accelrated into enough gas to stabalize. But bob+leyline was a big problem for "my" build, and I'm not sure mulch would have been enough without a way to stop the bob engine. Grim lavamancer was also rough. Perhaps a couple of Megaliths would help against non-attacking creature threats such as these (although you don't seem keen on that card either).
Thanks for the tips -- its awesome that someone with so much experience with the deck takes the time to weigh in with their thoughts!
- Galen
Other blue considerations: (in roughly this order)Quote:
Originally Posted by freakish777
Cephalid Coliseum
Academy Ruins
Intuition
Tolaria West
In my meta, there is no combo, it's all aggro and aggro-control. Everyone sideboards against me, so I see Back to Basics, Tsabo's Web, Extirpate, and the like every game 2 or 3. Cutting white let me play 3 basic Forests, enough to play around Back to Basics. I still run Ray of Revelation in my sideboard, because it's either discarded to Manabond or I end up dredging it into my yard.
Never seen a Leyline of the Void yet.
I also run two maindeck Ancient Grudge, as most decks are packing Pithing Needle's main or sideboard.
As for mulliganning, in my experience, all you have to keep is a hand with either:
Exploration or Manabond
Really broken lands (Tabernacle + 2 Maze + 2 Factory against aggro, for example)
And that's it. I have never mulliganned just to get a LftL.
-T
If you start playing 1st 3 you may aswell play Di's Eternal garden and use trinisphere to cement combo matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
Not necessarily. You could also just use Coliseums in place of cycling lands, Intuition instead of Gamble/Wish, and a pair of each Mindslaver and Academy for a comboish kill. (Or some other artifact bullets, as you like).
My current sideboard looks like this:
4 CotV
4 EE
4 Pull from Eternity - Extirpate sux
3 Armageddon
Hah...very interesting with the Pull from Eternity's.
However, I would suggest that if you REALLY are that afraid of Extripate (Which I can tell you that I am not), take the 3 Mulch out of the maindeck, replace them with Burning Wish, and create a wishboard. If Extripate is a huge card in your metagame, than the Wish version is likely to be better. However, at a GenCon for example, Extripates would be more rare...
Di's list only runs 1 Loam (yeah it's tutorable with Intuition, I know), and appears to rely heavily on Ancient Tombs, making it potentially weaker against burn based aggro lists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Belgareth
However, this probably isn't a bad idea, perhaps a hybridized list is in order when we get more information on what Tiago's card will actually be printed as?
Blue shouldn't be an issue. It's slower then red, and gains you nothing important...It's just fancier and maybe nicer looking. Red does the job much better though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rureddy31
An uncounterable counterspell or 2 every turn is nothing important? Seems like the beginnings of a good way to improve the bad combo match-up to me. Can you elaborate a bit more?