[Deck] CounterSliver

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Originally Posted by Volt

That list in the first post is a bit out of date. I think Mav, Pinder, and I have since come to agree that 8 cantrips is enough, and that 10 might actually be a bit of overkill. Brainstorm & Serum Visions are the best 8.

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What is the current list?

Here's the current list, Ill have pinder update the main list.

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle

4 Swords to Ploshares
2 Engineered Explosives

4 Crystaline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
4 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver*
2 Winged Sliver*

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

*note Volt's list is still running call which changes how many talon and wings he is running.

So yes we are down to 8 cantrips which seems to be enough.

In regards to portent, I prefer Sleight over it almost always due to the non-imediate card draw. portent is a great first turn cantrip but a horrible topdeck.

My exclusion of counterspell/call from the list is simply because I did not run them at my last tournament last week, this list is the most recent one that I am testing with. I'm still trying to figure out how to fit in the two counterspells as they can really help the deck deal with mass removal late game, Although force can play that role too. If only daze were a hard counter *sigh*

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Originally Posted by Volt

This isn't aggro. It's aggro-control. Furthermore, it's slower than some other aggro-control decks, such as Gro. Well, usually it is. Sometimes you get the crazy sliver draw and run them over.

I have actually considered Tithe. It's tempting, but I can't figure out how to fit it in.

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Just cut Serum Visions/Sleight of Hand. This is a Sliver deck, not Threshold. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Phantom

Creatures aren't really the issue for Threshold. They need access to their dig and removal. Also, they need to get to Threshold which is difficult for them with a Chalice @1. Chalice @1 brings them down to 4 Werebears, 3 Mages, and an Enforcer. Almost any deck can deal with that, especially if they can't dig for removal or reach Threshold. As a FS player, I've tested this a ton, Thresh loses with Chalice out.



While both points are correct, having an answer to something doesn't mean that it isn't a problem. Talon Sliver is no kind of answer to Goblins. It's a creature for the love of god and they run uncounterable removal. Every deck is going to want a sideboard card that helps against Goblins since it's probably the most played deck in Legacy (unless the matchup is like 75/25).

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I do agree on the Thresh losing to Chalice @1, it is a game plan for the decks I have that run Chalice, however they can still win.

Talon Sliver is an answer to goblins, and they don't have uncounterable removal, as this deck runs stifle and untagetability. (SP?)

Cutting serum visions is not an option, brainstorm and serum visions are your draw engine*, yes this deck is not thresh but it plays much the same way. The main difference is that you don't really on the graveyard.

*while serum visions and brainstorm do not provide card advantage, they provide enough card selection to be called a draw engine

For comparison with Mav's list, here is mine:

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Forest

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
1 Eladamri's Call

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Counterspell

Sideboard:
4 Meddling Mage
4 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Disenchant
2 Seal of Cleansing

I run an extra land, a single Eladamri's Call, and Counterspells instead of EE in the maindeck. The sideboard changes from hour to hour. :rolleyes:

The list has been updated, and Volt's list is up there too, now. Volt, if you have any changes, let me know and I'll make them as soon as possible.

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Originally Posted by Complete_Jank

Talon Sliver is an answer to goblins, and they don't have uncounterable removal, as this deck runs stifle and untagetability. (SP?)

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QFT. Our Goblin matchup is ridiculous. It's probably this deck's strongest quality.

And we need a lot more data before we have some official matchups. If anyone wants to grab the list and test it, or take it to a tourney, be my guest. The only one I've tested extensively is Goblins, to be honest. Volt would have a much better idea of these than either myself or Mav, I think.

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Originally Posted by Pinder

Iggy Pop:40/60 for them. Not really pretty the first game, as they just ignore your creatures, play defense grid, and go to town. You can still pull a win out if you counter the important stuff, and Stifle helps. Chain of Vapor is great against a turn 0 Leyline, though. Postboard, you bring in Meddling Mages, and Armageddon, and the matchup improves by a little. Still tough, though. Note: I haven't done much more testing since the original list, so I don't know if the new list fares any better or worse

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Iggy Pop doesn't typically run Defense Grid maindeck. If it did, then yeah, we would have a tough time winning game 1. As it is, I think we're no worse than 50/50 to win game 1. After siding in Meddling Mage, I think the matchup swings solidly to our favor. I did have a chance to do a bit of play-testing vs. Iggy Pop this weekend. DeathwingZERO was piloting Iggy Pop, and he definitely knows how to play the deck. We didn't get in enough games for me to state anything conclusively, but I did come away with the sense that it is a favorable matchup for us.

EDIT: One other thing... While Armageddon is effective against Solidarity, I don't think it helps all that much against Iggy Pop.

For our iggy-pop testing we were using the top 8 list from gencon with the maindeck defense grids and thats why the matchup is so bad. without the defense grids your probably right that it's closer to 50/50, if not better considering stifle. In fact without defense grid the only way they could hope to win is make a leyline stick before using Ill-Gotten Gains, or just win first turn.

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Originally Posted by Maverick676

For our iggy-pop testing we were using the top 8 list from gencon with the maindeck defense grids and thats why the matchup is so bad. without the defense grids your probably right that it's closer to 50/50, if not better considering stifle. In fact without defense grid the only way they could hope to win is make a leyline stick before using Ill-Gotten Gains, or just win first turn.

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Well, if that GenCon build becomes the standard, then I guess Iggy Pop will be a more problematic matchup for us. I still think we're favored after sideboarding, though.

Between the maindeck Stifles and Mages in the board, both Solidarity and Iggy Pop should be more than in our favor post-board. And Volt is probably right about Armageddons being worse against Iggy Pop than they are against Solidarity. I can see these coming out of the board for 2 Null Rod and 1 Worship, possibly. All I can say is that if you can keep a Null Rod on the table, Iggy Pop rolls over and dies because they can't use LED or Lotus Petal.

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Originally Posted by Pinder

All I can say is that if you can keep a Null Rod on the table, Iggy Pop rolls over and dies because they can't use LED or Lotus Petal.

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Iggy pop can still completly set up the loop and go off just with cabal ritual. It hurts them but far from makes them roll over and die, not to mention they have bounce for the null rod and about a billion tutors for it.

Meh. Stupid Cabal Ritual. At any rate, quicksilver is right, I was getting a little too hopeful. As far as bounce is concerned though, we have counterspells, you know.

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Originally Posted by quicksilver

Iggy pop can still completly set up the loop and go off just with cabal ritual. It hurts them but far from makes them roll over and die, not to mention they have bounce for the null rod and about a billion tutors for it.

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Null Rod by itself isn't going to win the matchup, but if I had them in the sideboard anyway, I would definitely side them in against Iggy Pop. They're pretty damn good in other matchups, too. Faerie Stompy and Affinity come to mind. I can see Null Rod being an excellent sideboard choice in some metagames.

Actually I'm running 4 null rod over pithing needle at this point in the SB since everything I needle is almost always an artifact. Plus It and mages own the white weenie equipment decks that plague my area.

I actually had a build of CounterSliver even before this thread started, but it had cards like Vial, Quick Sliver and Mishra's Factory... Very janky, I know... :tongue:

After the enlightening discussion on this thread, here's the build that I've come up with...

Meat-Hooks

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

Slivers
4 Plated Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
2 Winged Sliver
2 Talon Sliver

Spells
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Counterspell
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives

Sideboard
1 Counterspell
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Chill
2 Disenchant
2 Naturalize
4 Disrupt

SB's just something I threw together... It's not final by any means... :tongue:

The single EE in the MD has been OK for me... Not overly amazing, just OK... I've never been unhappy by drawing it, but it's a placeholder until I figure out what should be in its place (either another Hook or Counterspell)... I'm even flirting with running 16 lands...

I've been trying it out and things have been going smoothly... Notably, I've beaten red Thresh with this current deck, as well as Sligh and Nausea... And as I'm typing this, I'm beating Angel Stax Game1 even though he went first and played Chalice for 1 right off the bat... :tongue:

Disrupt in the SB is kind of interesting. Do you ever side it in, and does it help?

Well I'm glad this discussion is going well. While everyone has a different variation on the deck, I think we have all agreed on the core of the deck. I'm begining to think that the leftover 8 slots or so will be pretty much metagame dependent. Although I think stifle is a good choice in the main just about everywhere. In regards to EE vs. Counterspell I think it really depends on the meta against control and such counterspell is the better choice, against aggro I'd have to go with the explosives.

I don't really like the 1 EE in the main it seems like you should add the second or just run another Talon/Counterspell or maybe one maindeck call. But if its working for you then keep running it.

Disrupt seems interesting. Guessing it's for the thresh, burn and control matchups?

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Originally Posted by Maverick676

Disrupt seems interesting. Guessing it's for the thresh, burn and control matchups?

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Disrupt also hoses Deadguy's and Red Death's discards and sinkholes.

2nd turn Hymn? Nah, ill draw a card instead :P

I'm really thinking that Disrupt deserves a place in the board. To be honest, I hadn't heard about it until now. I think it could be brought in from the board replacing Daze against instants and sorceries that hose us (Wrath of God, anyone?). As it stands, it's probably a metagame choice, as I wouldn't run them due to the lack of Deadguy/Red Death/Burn/Mono-White Instant Bird Jank, etc. in my meta.

Definitely a nice idea, though.

EDIT: Almost forgot, I'm taking the updated list to a tourney tonight, I should have a report up by sometime tomorrow. Wish me luck.