[Deck] Pox

Well, I ended up going to the Mana Clash with Pox. I expected a lot of Goblins and Threshold, with a couple of people packing Solidarity. Boy was I wrong. I didnt see a single Goblins or Threshold deck, nor did I face any Solidarity. I ended up playing against:

U/W Angel Control
Ravager
RGW Mangara Survival
Faerie Stompy
Welder/Stax/Nantuko Shade/4-colornoobjank.dec

Im pretty sure this was my list

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
15 Swamp

3 Phyrexian Totem
3 Nether Spirit

4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Duress
4 Hymm to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Dark Ritual
3 Infest

3 Cranial Extraction
3 E. Plague
2 Sudden Death
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Phyrexian Negator

So, Round 1 I played U/W Angel Control. Game 1 I drop 1st turn Phyrexian Totem and he allows it. He plays Tundra, go. I drop Swamp, tap Totem and swamp, play Sinkhole and Duress. He reveals a hand of StP, FoF, Rune Snag, Island, Brainstorm. He makes his next few land drops while I topdeck swamps and Wastelands. He resolves a FoF, flips something like FoW, Pristine Angel, Pristine Angel, Exalted Angel, Tundra. I scooped. Game 2 I side in Sudden Deaths and Negators, taking out 2 Spirits and 3 Infests. I play 1st turn Duress Hymm, ripping his Brainstorm and a Pristine and StP. 2nd Turn I Sinkhole, 3rd turn Phyrexian Totem, 4th turn Negator and he scoops up. Game 3 the only thing I remember is me being at 4 with him having an Exalted Angel on the board and I topdeck Innocent Blood. We go back and forth a few turns until he drops Pristine Angel into Pristine Angel and rides it for the win.

0-1

Ravager was a little easier. Game 1 I open a hand of Swamp, Wasteland, Swamp, Sinkhole, Hymm, Smallpox. So I kept it and he goes land, Vial. I draw into Dark Ritual, so I play Swamp and pass. He forgets vial so it stays at 0 and he drops a Nexus and Ravager. I draw into Nether Spirit so I go land, Ritual, Smallpox, discard Spirit, tap Swamp, Hymm. I Hymm 2 lands from his hand and pass the turn. He puts vial at 1 and passes. I drop Wasteland and waste his land and ride Spirit to the win. He didnt see any creatures besides Frogs and Enforcers and I had the LD to keep him off Affinity.

Game 2 I side in 4 Leylines and 2 Sudden Deaths for 3 Infests and 3 Pox. I figured that Leylines ability to shut off his Modular and Disciple was more important than Poxing. I was right. I opened with a Leyline and went aggro with 1st turn Totem beats. I must say 1st turn Totem, 2nd turn Sinkhole is pretty damn good.

I cant really anything much past this point because I stopped trying to remember my games because it was 3 AM. All I really remember was crushing Fairy Stompy, losing to RGSA because we both got deckchecked, making it a 1 game match, where he pulled out with a last second Mangara to remove my lethal Spirit. He was at 2. I lost to noob jank the last round too. The guy played Crucibles, Smokestacks, Tangle Wires, Goblin Welders, Bobs, Jittes, SoFI, Nantuko Shades, and some green spells. I couldnt even decide what direction to go after he played Wheel of Fate. :(

Overall, I was alright with my game, but I was disappointed I couldnt use Crucibles. Wastelock would have spelt GG against all my opponents for the most part. Phyrexian Totem is a house and should really be an auto-include. The fact that he taps for BLACK mana is such a boon for this deck. Sudden Death is also MVP. That card made so many people rethink their strategy.

Okay, I promised to post a new list and here it is. I haven't done much testing with it yet since I've been busy trying to not fail organic chemistry, but hopefully I'll be able to take it through at least a few games before next tournament.

3 Nether Spirit

4 Dark Ritual
3 Innocent Blood
3 Funeral Charm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Powder Keg
3 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Infest
3 Phyrexian Totem
2 Crucible of Worlds

17 Swamp
4 Wasteland

SB:
4 Duress
3 Oppression
4 Sudden Death
4 Leyline of the Void

One thing I've found in the Goblins matchup is that the major hurt there is Aether Vial. It's sort of like giving them unlimited lands to play their best dudes. It also allows them to drop guys EOT, which is problematic for you because most of your removal is sorcery speed (I ran Smothers in the Kegs' slots). It allows them to effectively circumvent your land destruction strategy, thus invalidating a large part of your deck. So, I'm testing Kegs to deal with Vials and level the field there, and they have the side benefit of blowing up Needles naming Totem. One thing, though - do I have enough win conditions? Should I fit some Mishra's Factory in there?

Absolutely play Factory. He's really good in the deck. Having all your kill conditions avoid Pox and Infest is just unfairness. Its like Landstill with Wrath and man lands.

People playing Factory can push for Cabal Therapy as well since you then have Nether Spirit and recurring Factory to flash it back with.

It looks like all these lists are starting to mirror eachother.

Can this deck be moved to open?

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Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living

It looks like all these lists are starting to mirror eachother.

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I agree that all the Pox deck are looking the same. So we should talk about theroy.

I have been playing Pox for the last month or so an want to ask some questions.

• When is the best time to play pox?

I so far I can not find the best time to play it. Should I hold on to it for the long game or Use it T2 and after?

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Originally Posted by Giles

I have been playing Pox for the last month or so an want to ask some questions.

• When is the best time to play pox?

I so far I can not find the best time to play it. Should I hold on to it for the long game or Use it T2 and after?

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A phrase i used to hear about this is "pox early, pox often, pox hard."

But i guess it's really about timing it to get an advantage out of the "1/3 rounded up" dynamic, breaking the card's symmetry simply by playing it at the right time. A good rule of thumb is to play it when your lands and hand are at 3X [usually 3 lands and 3 or 0 cards in hand], and your opponent is at 3X+1 [1, 4, 7, etc], for maximum advantage, or maybe even 3X+2. Then again, i've found that poxing with an opponent at any amount but 0 or 3 lands, and with 4 or more cards in hand, is a good play in general, as long as you're at 3X. This of course gets better with a spirit in hand and/or a crucible in play.

Is there really an absolute need for mana acceleration [mox, ritual]? With a relatively low and flat curve, does the deck not benefit from using the slots usually reserved for accel to boost the land count and add more threats/utility? My testing has been inconclusive so far, what are your thoughts on it?

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Originally Posted by jebus

A phrase i used to hear about this is "pox early, pox often, pox hard."

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That is what I heard too, however you never want to pox on T1.
I like you math for the best pox possaible.


I going to post my current list of Pox:

2 Wasteland
2 Cabal Pit
9 Swamps
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Ghost Quarter

3 Nether Spirit

4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
2 Engineered Plague
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pox
3 Crucibal of Worlds
2 Funeral Charm
4 Mox Diamond

SB:
2 Engineered Plague
2 Funeral Charm
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
3 Infest
2 Opperssion/ Chains

Some notes on the deck:
I do not like Chains or Opperssion, I think there might be a better spell to take the spot, since I had Reset decks still win with one out there.

I was using Funeral Charm for Lackey hate, however this might need to be repalced since you can kill it (and the other goblin) even if you do take one from him.

I have set up the deck for more aggro meta, since that what alot of MWS is.

Poxing on your first turn is just plain bad.

On the play, you lose 2 cards [Ritual and Pox], you sac the land you just played, and you discard 2 more cards, leaving you with no lands and 2 cards in hand. Your opponent discards 3 cards, but doesn't lose a land drop. It's almost like restarting the game with your opponent on the play with a 5 card hand, and you on the draw with a 2 card hand. Not good.

On the draw, you lose the same amount as above, but have 3 cards left in hand instead. Your opponent loses his first land, maybe his one-drop creature, and 2 cards in hand. Slightly better than poxing on the play, but still meh.

As for your list, it seems to be short 4 cards, which i assume are lands. 18 land and 4 Mox Diamond, even with 3 Crucible, is far from adequate. also, how is having just 3 Factory and 3 Spirit as threats working for you?

A) Mountain, Lackey, Go.

B) Swamp, Diamond, Smallpox


Against goblins a turn 1 smallpox can keep your opponant from exploding on you.

I was talking about big Pox. Turn 1 Smallpox [on the draw] is a lot more managable, and could be a good play [as in the example].

Turn one if your opponent opens with a land and a creature that leaves the magic number 5 in their hand. You draw a card, play a swamp and pox. That leaves you both with no board and 3 cards in hand.

This might not seem like the best idea since your opponent gets the first turn after that, but remember how well your deck runs under such conditions. Everything can be cast for under 3 mana and your deck is designed to heal itself. If you have one card to break Pox synergies you come out ahead. This can be a NS in hand or a Crucible in play.

Your opponent on the other hand might've been relying on a land light hand or a hand totally banking on the turn one lackey. You force bad discard choices on your opponent when they've only seen 7 cards. They dont know if its ok to discard a land, or a key piece of their plan because they dont know what their next available resources are. Playing Pox before your opponent sets up a plan for themselves is detrimental.

Taking 7 life out of your opponent on turn one is some good btw.

Well, I played my previously posted list today in a local Legacy tourney (but I decided to do -2 Swamp, +2 Mishra's Factory beforehand) and got my ass handed to me. I beat Salvagers Game and lost to CAL, Madness (Fucking manascrew!!!) and Life.dec (!!!!!!!!!!!!). No, I am not lying. I lost to madness because I had to go to four cards game one before I got any lands, and game two I got the dreaded mana flood. WTF. Cal was just...bad, since I really lose to LftL and he knew my list ahead of time and anticipated me siding in Leyline of the Voids to hose him. Life.dec was absolutely hideous - I get him down to one life in one game and then get stuck drawing swamps while he draws combo pieces. Btw, Poxing your opponent for 2 million life is kinda funny.

One thing I'm starting to wonder about this deck: what would happen if, say, it went in a more Stax-like direction? The decks already share a lot of similarities and running Disruption.dec is just brutal. Not sure how exactly you would pull this off, though, since Ancient Tomb would be bad here (life loss ftl) and diluting your mana base with all that colorless mana makes it harder to cast a timely Pox. Casting a timely Pox becomes slightly less important when you run Smokestack and Tangle Wire, though, so...what do the rest of you think? Yay or nay on that idea? And if so, should I make up a rough list and post it for critique?

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

One thing I'm starting to wonder about this deck: what would happen if, say, it went in a more Stax-like direction? The decks already share a lot of similarities and running Disruption.dec is just brutal. Not sure how exactly you would pull this off, though, since Ancient Tomb would be bad here (life loss ftl) and diluting your mana base with all that colorless mana makes it harder to cast a timely Pox. Casting a timely Pox becomes slightly less important when you run Smokestack and Tangle Wire, though, so...what do the rest of you think? Yay or nay on that idea? And if so, should I make up a rough list and post it for critique?

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I have tested Pox much and I think the control part is already good. The problem has always been the win condition because the Rack and Cursed Scroll are not so efficient in killing your opponent. The second problem is that we don't have any draw/search engine.
As you said going to a Stax direction would ruin your manabase, which is already unstable without Crucible since you're destroying your lands also.

I have a question about having multiple Nether Spirits. I wouldn't include more than 1 to avoid having 2 in my graveyard. I see many lists instead pack 3. Is this effective? Never had problems with multiple Spirits in your graveyard?

I was planning to run Undead Gladiator instead to ensure some recursive draw in the late game. Gladiator + Crucible should be quite slow but solid (when you draw land you cicle the gladiator and play the land from your graveyard the following turn). Gladiator is also good without Crucible to clear your hand from useless cards. What do you think?

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Originally Posted by erdjinn

I have a question about having multiple Nether Spirits. I wouldn't include more than 1 to avoid having 2 in my graveyard. I see many lists instead pack 3. Is this effective? Never had problems with multiple Spirits in your graveyard?

I was planning to run Undead Gladiator instead to ensure some recursive draw in the late game. Gladiator + Crucible should be quite slow but solid (when you draw land you cicle the gladiator and play the land from your graveyard the following turn). Gladiator is also good without Crucible to clear your hand from useless cards. What do you think?

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Run one and in most games you won't draw it unless you go into the late game. Run three and you may or may not draw a second one. As for me, I'm going to go back to running two.

I've also started experimenting with the mana base. The annoying thing about this deck is my mana issues - either I draw no land or only colorless sources and get mana screwed, or I draw too many lands and get flooded. If I was having only one or the other problem, the solution would be straightfoward, but...I'm not sure how to fix it in this case aside from shuffling the living hell out of my deck. I'm going to try experimenting with the following mana configuration:

13 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory (also a win condition)
3 Terramorphic Expanse

4 Dark Ritual
3 Phyrexian Totem

I'm also going to go -1 Infest, +1 Crucible of Worlds. As for Expanse, what's the deal with that? Well, the problem I have with regular fetches is the life loss. I would prefer to inflict as little life loss on myself as possible, considering I run both Pox and Smallpox. But that aside, the thinning / shuffling effect from fetches is very good in this deck. My solution? I only run basics for colored mana, so Terramorphic Expanse fits the bill as a fetch that doesn't make me lose life. Unfortunately, I can't open Expanse, fetch, spell, go, but I also don't drop to 19 on turn one and I won't lose life recurring and reusing it with Crucible. Anyway, here's my deck at the moment:

Weezing

13 Swamp
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory (win condition)
3 Terramorphic Expanse

2 Nether Spirit (win condition)

4 Dark Ritual
3 Innocent Blood
3 Funeral Charm
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Powder Keg
3 Smallpox
4 Pox
3 Infest
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Phyrexian Totem (win condition)

SB:
4 Duress
4 Sudden Death
3 Oppression
4 Leyline of Void

I figure I can get away with 3 Crucible without it being too annoying since I run seven self-discard effects now. Anyway, comments?

There is no way, someone could convince me that Terramorphic Expanse is better in Legacy.

When I compare the two, it's like this:

Fetch-land: Thins your deck, gets you the land you need, you then proceed to play normally, as nothing has happened out of the ordinary.

Terra-Morph: Thins your deck, gets you the land you need, you then prodeed to do nothing, and you pass the turn, because you basically Time-walked your turn away.

It's only one life. It shouldn't be breaking a game. Recurring one, shouldn't be necessary. It doesn't seem like you'll need tonnes and tonnes of mana late game. You shouldn't have to fetch each turn later in the game with Crucible. If you keep casting pox and such, you can just replay swamps. And not bother fetching more. I understand you want to thin your deck/shuffle, but really, you want to be active the turn your land comes into play more than you want to not lose 1 life.

I took 1st with my deck that uses small pox last week.

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4599

@Aggro_zombies why no the rack?
It's a good win condition. I use 4.

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Originally Posted by erdjinn

@Aggro_zombies why no the rack?
It's a good win condition. I use 4.

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Because I don't have enough discard in the maindeck or post-board to make it worth my while. Playing Pox or Smallpox just to make them discard is not usually a good idea.

I think there should be two different approaches to the Small Pox card.

Either a Black/White board control deck or a Green/Black with Eternal Witnesses and Life from the Loam, and possibly Genesis.

I prefer the MonoB route of the original Pox build + Crucible to recur lands.
Take out Diabolic Edict and throw in Smallpox that adds discard and land destruction to creature removal. Phyrexian Totem is a nice add also being both a finisher and a mana source.