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A member of my team is always doing great with this deck. He plays Crucible of the Worlds over the top slot. The recurring wastelands are nice and the ability to rely on Karakas against opposing wastes is huge. We also have decks like Stax and black ld decks in our meta so its a nice defense card for him. Crucible obviously opens up for Geddon in the board.
Why isnt this deck in the Open forums now??
looks like an interesting deck which is a blast to play.
i'm gonna test it.
@CleverPetriDish: why don't you run a single Eiganjo Castle? fear of wasteland or too low number of plains to fetch?
Hi to everybody here, this is my first post on The Source.
The rules text of Oblation is: "The owner of target nonland permanent shuffles it into his or her library, then draws two cards." Your trick with Wasteland on Karakas doesn't work.Quote:
Originally Posted by CleverPetriDish
Darn, I hadn't thought of that. I would have felt stupid trying to do that in a game. I wonder if it is still worth testing out. That's always the problem with Oblation, it is always one trick shy of being really good.
Because it hasn't won any big name tournaments.Quote:
Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living
Personally I still don't see why it's not in open either. But based on my understanding, we need a solid decklist (there are many variations out there), some results (which are found in the opening post) and someone to pilot it to make it to the finals of a reputable tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Topdeck
is Aura of Silence an alternative to Disenchant that makes sense or is its 3cc too slow? at least, it would fit into the tax theme.
Aura is slow, most artifacts will be there before turn 3 (chalice on 1, moxes, jittes, swords of something, needles naming vial). So I used Serenity to solve this problem, whipe the board and get an aura so future opponents artifacts have a hard time getting on play and get my own artifacts on the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Serenity is not good here.
It destroys your vial(s) and is too slow. Plus if the opponent has a spell to disenchant it that's not good for you.
I think disenchant is the best option here. It is directly effective, and there are not so much situations when you absolutely have to destroy a bunch of artifacts.
I think Oblation has merit. Well, I think all of those cards have merit, but I think that the idea of a multi-purpose spell of that sort is interesting. I have played games in which I really needed to kill a creature, such as Dark Confidant or Grim Lavamancer and if they can keep Mangara out of use, I only have STP available. Now it's true that we can get a lot of mileage out of all the combat tricks, but these guys don't have to attack, so the options are limited. I really only side in Disenchant against Affinity and Survival (where it is really good) and decks with Jittes or Vials (where it has few targets, but can be a critical advantage). So would Oblation improve those matchups? I am not sure. Is there anthing else that can kill creatures and artifacts without ruining the deck's board position?
I stopped using Wasteland a while ago, as Port has proven a far superior card for me - especially with Hokori and Karakas in play. Of course if he has Crucibles that changes things a lot. Although Crucible is not especially good in aggro usually. With all the LD over there, it seems a meta choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living
And it seems clear to me that this can go in Open now. CleverPetriDish has put enough results to indicate to me that the deck is good outside my own metagame. It has no matchups that are downright easy, but then they all seem to be atleast pretty good. Perhaps folks with a lot of experience could sound off on their designs so we can get an official build. I, for one, will go with Petri's. So that's two in favor of that build.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I don't think this deck has a gameplan for Life. Since it uses creatures to kill, and does not actually cast them in rapid succession, pretty much all of the combo defense is useless. I guess you would have to really get a Mangara or Hokori lock going and pound them, selectively plowing their parts. Luckily the deck is nearly nonexistent in Legacy, thanks to a bad matchup against almost all of the top decks.Quote:
First I'd wanted to say that your deck is simply awesome, Finn!...
...P.S.: How to answer to Life.deck?
Decks with Jittes and Vials - that's more than half the aggro and aggro-control decks out there. Here's a radical idea - use Jittes. It kills Jittes and creatures, just not the Vial. Is this one of those obvious answers in disguise?Quote:
I really only side in Disenchant against Affinity and Survival (where it is really good) and decks with Jittes or Vials (where it has few targets, but can be a critical advantage). So would Oblation improve those matchups? I am not sure. Is there anthing else that can kill creatures and artifacts without ruining the deck's board position?
Oh, and I will back the version cleverpetridish is using. Well, except maybe for the Oblation part.
So I played Bane of the Living last night on MWS. He has using Affownity, ya know. The new thingie. He, uh, owned me.
In particular, he beat me with flying equipped dudes. And I had - True Believers. I sure could have used a Stonecloaker we removed to block his little Ornithopter or Cloud of Fairies. So grrr to the new build. This was an inauspicious start.
Do you feel confident about that? Since Oblation is SB material, I'd guess running 4 Karakas seems quite risky maindeck, since they're not essential to your game plan. Even if your meta is filled with Wastelands, I think 3 should be enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by CleverPetriDish
Karakas is what makes the deck tick. It is very essential to your game plan. You always want that card. and a deck doesn't need to have proven itself to be in open forum. I mean look at half the decks in there.
You really want to see Karakas reliably, and rather 2 than none.
Definitely 4 unless you are running Weathered Wayfarer.
So I have an idea for this deck, but I'm not sure how it rates, so I figured I'd throw it out there and see what people who have actually played the deck think:
Enlightened Tutor
(+3 Enlightened Tutor
-2 SDT
-1 Vial maybe?)
I don't think it will help the mainboard much, if at all. It might help in the matchups where vial (or top) is absolutely crucial. And you could always throw in 2 one-ofs to help certain especially terrible or common matchups, but that's neither here nor there.
Where a card like E. tutor really shines is post board (I learned this when I decided to put Trinket Mage in FS and saw that the size of my board had virtually doubled). I believe I saw a comment earlier that this deck beats TES when it gets a Sphere out turn 2, but otherwise loses. Well, how would you like a 90% (estimate) chance of landing a sphere turn 2? (4 Tutors + 4 Spheres) Pithing Needle, Aether Vial and other artifacts and enchantments are a problem for this deck, hence the Disenchants in the board. Well, how would you like to cut down to one less Disenchant, but see them twice as much? (4 Tutors + 2 Seal of Cleansing) And the list goes on and on: Chalice, Trini, Jitte, Crypt, Ghostly Prison, Pithing Needle, Rule of Law, even mana fixing via Ancient Den!
In the past, the biggest arguments against E tutor are it's tempo and card advantage hit to the deck. Well, I can't argue with the tempo hit. It kinda sucks. Luckily, this deck runs Vial, so often times mana will be free-ish. And if you don't have Vial, then your best turn 1 play is often going and getting one. I've always thought the card advantage argument was a tad thin, especially here since you can grab a Top and make back your lack of card advantage with card quality fairly quickly.
Oh, and it's another shuffle effect.
Anyway, I'm open to thoughts on the card since I have never once picked up the deck, so my say really means little. Anyway, thoughts?
I just ordered a bunch of cards for this deck, cus I want to start running it. I haven't had any time to playtest yet, though, and I was interested in the reasoning behind sensei's divining top's inclusion.
I understand that it smooths draws well, but would it be better off as (say...) more stonecloakers, mother of runes, or additional land? I don't know how much this has been discussed, and I'll go look for any talk of it now (if I find it this post will be deleted).
Also, I saw a lot of lists including maindeck grunt. While he's spectacular in many matchups, is he really good enough for main? Outside of swords and fetches DaT's grave doesn't fill up, so I worry he's too reliant on the opponent.
The deck runs 3 legendary cards as 3 or 4 ofs; SDT will usually more than replace itself by avoiding useless cards. It's very solid, and the number of threats seems right on the whole.
They can be shaved down to 1 or 2, but there is no good reason to cut them entirely.
So, are we going to m0ve forward with a deck we all agree on?
Chmod, I tried out the Jitte, and I friggin love it. It seems to me that we should be taking out the Tivadar's Crusades for them. That way, we STILL HAVE DISENCHANTS. Jitte can slice up Goblins just fine on its own.
To pose another question, that I realize has come up for a few of you in testing, why isn't the fourth stonecloaker in here? If karakas can't be found or is destroyed, he can temporarily enable synergies, and can also save creatures from removal or combat, AND removes graveyard.
My meta is very low on combo, so I'm going to go ahead and replace glowriders with +1 cloaker, +2 mother of runes, and +1 true believer, but is there a way to get the overall agreed-upon list to include that last cloaker as well?
And by the way, give me a week and I'll have some testing results for you guys (against gobs, boros aggro, thresh, LD, and various aggro-control decks).
@ Iranon - Have you tested much further with the wayfarers and wastes list you posted? I keep seeing glimpses for great potential, but nothing seems to click yet. I'd like to hear about any results you've put up in that direction.
Some other thoughts... (Disclaimer: I haven't play-tested this deck, so these are merely ideas in effort to evolve a deck that looks like it could be great)
How important is silver knight? He's gold against goblins, and stays on the board against burn... I understand all of this. But there are so many beautiful 2 drops in white that I wonder if he can't be replaced, or dropped to a 2/3 of. What about:
Samurai of the Pale Curtain - Almost as good on the ground war as silver knight, better in some cases, worse in some (probably the more prevalent ones unfortunately, i.e. goblins). Does his ability help any other matchups? You people would know this better than I.
Khataki, War's Wage - I think worthy atleast of a sideboard slot. Affinity hates this more than null-rod. Yeah, it has anti-synergy with your vials, but it absolutely wrecks a few decks out there.
Auriok Champion - One less power and defense, no first strike... but you also get protection from black and the life gain, which is no small thing when you're running as many creatures as D&T. It helps mitigate the life loss from your fetches. I think this atleast deserves some brief play-testing. I'm unable to judge the value of Auriok's life gain. Let me know what some of you more experienced people out there think.
It's always possible to up the counts of Jotun and True Believers in place of Silver Knights. Is he really that important outside of your Goblin's match-up?