Wow that is a lot of sideboard action Di. Boarding is probably the weakest part of my game, I never know what to take out. Could you enlighten us on what you take out for all that boarded goodness?
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Wow that is a lot of sideboard action Di. Boarding is probably the weakest part of my game, I never know what to take out. Could you enlighten us on what you take out for all that boarded goodness?
Okays. :) For reference, the sideboard once again:
3 Thoughtseize
3 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Plague
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Tsunami
2 Extirpate
I'm not going to be re-posting the decklist; just click the back button. I'm not sure if you have any specific matchups in mind, but listed are the more general ones.
Threshold:
+3 Thoughtseize, + 3 Krosan Grip, +2 Tsunami, +2 Extirpate
-1 Darkheart Sliver, -1 Fire Imp, -1 Quirion Ranger, -1 Masticore, -2 Nimble Mongoose, -4 Swords to Plowshares
The splash color doesn't matter, as you board the same for all of them. The post-board plan is quite different than pre-board, as you play more of a disruption route than aggro. You abandon most of the creature removal in favor of other permanent removal. I find StP, although great at flinging opposing Goyfs, incredibly underwhelming here. You will always win a Tarmogoyf standoff as you have more creatures, and you still have removal with Shriekmaw. Nimble Mongoose loses a couple slots because it is the weakest creature left in the deck. Eternal Witness and Magus are insanely good in this matchup, Harmonic kills Counterbalance, and removing mana-producers from a deck running Daze is suicide. I find it ok though, as you still have an edge in dealing with their threats with your greater threat density. Thoughtseize is an obvious choice, board in all the Grips for CB, Top, and now Shackles is making an appearance, Extirpate is just amazing and I board it in basically every matchup, because removing all Tarmogoyfs or Counterbalances throws this over the top, and Tsunarmageddon is just great.
Goblins:
+3 Engineered Plague, +2 Extirpate
-2 Magus of the Moon, -1 Eternal Witness, -2 Cabal Therapy/ -1 Cabal Therapy + -1 Genesis/something else
This sideboarding depends on whether you won or lost game 1. If you're on the play game 2, I'd keep more Cabal Therapy so you have better shot at hitting Lackey, although Lackey isn't a huge concern with so many ways of dealing with it. Otherwise, remove one and possibly Genesis. I really don't like taking Genesis out of the deck, but there are very few instances in this match that I end up using him. Otherwise, something like the 2nd Witness or 2nd Quirion Ranger is acceptable. You need to keep Harmonic in the deck to deal with Vial, and Darkheart's life gain can prove to have a huge impact, so they stay. What you add is obvious. Plague is derf, and Extirpate hitting something like Ringleader or Warchief is huge.
Landstill:
+3 Thoughtseize, +3 Krosan Grip, +2 Tsunami, +2 Extirpate, +2 Gaddock Teeg
-4 Swords to Plowshares, -2 Shriekmaw, -1 Fire Imp, -1 Masticore, -1 Darkheart Sliver, -1 Quirion Ranger, -1 Nimble Mongoose, -1 Birds of Paradise
This is probably the only matchup, or one of them, that I'd ever board out a Bird. The reason behind this is that the match is much more based on the late-game than early, so I'm not striving to get that huge push in the beginning. It's nice, yes, and being able to explode off the bat can be a huge advantage, but this match is won generally by overwhelming them with bombs. Stuff like Nimble Mongoose is incredibly hard for them to deal with, even moreso than Tarmogoyf, and especially when they recur or are in multiples. Despite that, I need to remove one for room purposes. The rest of the slots are too important to lose, but it isn't a huge loss as you can honestly ride victory on the back of a single recurring Mongoose. Harmonic stays in despite not dealing with Humility thanks to Crucible, Deed, Shackles, Hoofprints, and all the other ugly shit out there. Stuff going in is basically going to be the same for all blue decks, sans Teeg. Stopping half their deck is really, really good.
Mirror/Survival:
+3 Thoughtseize, +3 Krosan Grip, +2 Extirpate
-1 Darkheart Sliver, -2 Magus of the Moon, -1 Quirion Ranger, -3 Nimble Mongoose, -1 Eternal Witness
This match isn't really worth going too far in depth to. It's just a war of attrition, and whoever can deal with the other person's Survival and stick them first. In this match I aggressively mull until I find I way to deal with Survival or have it myself because the match can be so lop-sided. Mongoose is boarded out because you need to keep the disruption package to maximize the odds of hitting Survival, and need to keep all the removal for obvious reasons. I keep one in though, as an insurance policy in case I have the opportunity to use GG and Survival for a hasty 3/3. I'd like to keep more in the deck, but it's just difficult space-wise.
Combo (Storm decks/Belcher)
+3 Thoughtseize, +3 Engineered Plague, +2 Extirpate, +2 Gaddock Teeg, +3 Krosan Grip (Belcher)
-4 Swords to Plowshares, -2 Shriekmaw, -1 Fire Imp, -1 Masticore, -1 Darkheart Sliver, -2 Nimble Mongoose, -2 Magus of the Moon (Belcher)
These matchups aren't really worth talking about too far in depth either, as they are more luck-based. Either they go nuts turn 1 or something, or they don't. You just board in everything you can and pray for a turn 1 discard turn 2 Teeg hand or something. You just need to get lots of disruption and apply the heavy Tarmogoyf beats if you can.
I'm going to leave it at here for now, but if you want any other sideboard strategies for matchups just lmk. Also feel free to comment, question, challenge them as well. If there are better strategies, I'd love to know, because although I'm well-versed with the deck, I have tremendous difficulty sideboarding as well.
:tongue: There are different variations to this deck... A very strong deck indeed, and is more consistent and a little more vicious than survival madness. My question, and the reason for this post is.......Why don't all of these decklists include atleaset 2 umezawa's Jitte?...i love being able to equip my confidant(who is a 2/1)to a Jitte....All of the sudden confidant is a threat, swinging for 2, then 6 and so forth.. A block to the confidant is not going to hurt you, let it die after turn 5.....you'll have counters on the Jitte for creatures that matter in the later game..... PEACE!
I keep looking at the Survival lists and wondering if Oath of Ghouls would not be as strong or stronger than Survival of the Fittest.
You can take the basic creature list and find a way to get 4 Street Wraiths in there and you have a superior draw engine that can get just silly once an Oath is put into play.
How exactly is killing yourself to cycle cards for random draw superior, as opposed to, say, simply using green mana to access your entire deck at will? At least with Dark Confidant you might not lose life, and most builds aren't running him either.
Well, with the number of creatures in the deck you're very likely to start seeing an extra creature a turn along about turn 4 or so. The extra creature is not random but a choice of the subset of creatures you've managed to put in the yard to that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
Street Wraith basically turns into Dark Confidant at a fixed cost of 2 life per draw once he's in the yard and Oath of Ghouls is in play and he helps maintain the requirement of having more creatures in the yard than your opponent.
Street Wraith helps you find key cards, getting you to Oath of Ghouls faster than you'd find Survival of the Fittest and then helps you recycle the nasty stuff in your yard that the opponent actually manages to counter or destroy without removing from the game.
It's definitely a different angle than Survival and maybe I shouldn't have inserted it into a Survival thread. It's just a really nasty effect with the kind of creature roster that RGBSA runs.
I suspect Streetwraith would probably replace Nimble Mongoose, although I'm not 100% certain on that. You have to have the BoP to cast the creatures easily early on.
I really don't think that Oath of Ghouls is hot. Oath will find you creature that have found their way to the graveyard, like...Shriekmaw, Darkheart Sliver, and Street Wraith? Goyfs go farming, not to the graveyard. As Di said, Bob draws cards, and with the curve in the deck, he probably averages right around 2 life per turn. He isn't run.
The biggest difference is that Survival brings more threats to the party if you have a creature in hand and mana available. Oath brings them if you have more critters in the yard, and mana free. Sounds fair...except that Survival finds fat when you need fat, removal when you need removal, life when you need life, artifact and enchantment removal...you get the point. With Oath, you get whatever you have had so far.
Oath is certainly interesting, and it's another card I haven't seen in ages that probably could be played somewhere, but not in place of Survival. You could run it alongside Survival, if there was a sudden banning of Squee and the Horror. And it would still not be stellar.
I don't think it plays alongside Survival. Can't have eight enchantments in that deck with all of them wanting to land early.Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryTroll
Again, I probably brought it up out of turn in the thread. An Oath deck would be exactly that, not a Survival adaptation. It does produce an amazing amount of draw though for what it is, particularly if you are focussing on putting creatures in the yard yourself, then your opponents efforts basically just turn into a huge assist. The better their non-StP removal the fast your deck operates and WoG just fills the yard with things you want to pull out again.
Oversold Cemetary is probably better than Oath of Ghouls. The block Survival decks ran Oath of Ghouls a decent amount of the time, but this was pre-Squee. There are a bunch of neat interactions like Shriekmaw, but I'd wait to see what else could be Evoked before I would want to run something like Cemetary, especially over Recurring Nightmare (which doesn't see play at the moment).
This is the list I made top 8 with last weekend at the winter wonderland.
4 Forest
4 Taiga
4 Bayou
4 WoodedFoothills
4 Windsweptheath
1 Savanah
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Thoughtsieze
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Burning Wish
4 Tarmagoyf
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Gaddok Teeg
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
4 Eternal Witness
1 Squee Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Genesis
1 Indrik Stomphowler
2 Shriekmaw
1 Magus of the moon
SB:
3 Gaddok Teeg
1 Magus of the moon
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Loaming Shaman
1 Damnation
1 Tsunami
1 Regrowth
1 Hull breach
1 Seeds of Innocence
1 Chainer's edict
1 Anarchy
1 Rough/Tumble
1 Cabal Therapy
In retrospec, magus was great, I could have been playing a 3rd or 4th in the SB. Teeg no so great, I think one main is fine, but probably not any SB, legendary is teh suck.
I thought the main deck was great and would leave it just the way it was. There was very little goblins in the meta so I didn't miss engineered plague.
Damanation wasn't very good, there was only one time I even wanted it and I didn't even have the mana for it. For that meta I could have lived without anarchy or seeds, but those are cards that you'll really want if the situation comes.
I don't how much value the deck gets out of the Sharpshooter and Shaman in the board.
Jailer might be a good option against a number of decks as well as the remaining Magus of the moons.
Perhaps somemore Maws in the board and Big Game Hunters to take care of Tombstalkers etc.
Or with the white splash a wispmare
3 of the top 8 at the winter wonderland event were survival.... But it's not a deck to beat. :(
It won't be until Feb. since the thing is updated monthly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulletus
I like to think of sharpshooter as a tutorable e. plague although more likely to get removed it still comes in handy I normally like to run 1 maindeck for this purpose. Dark Confidant is not needed in this deck at all. Squee and Genesis provides enough card advantage.
Re: Di's GBWrSA
I've put your list together and I've been playing it some, but wanted to ask for some more advice on it.
Does Nimble Mongoose pull its weight? Without a Survival, it seems like Mongoose will be stuck at 1/1 until well into the lategame. An untargetable 1/1 is still solid enough, I guess, but you only run 8 spells (the Swords and Therapies) and 8 fetches, and Therapy doesn't always stay in the yard. Is Mongoose better than Mogg Fanatic, a couple of Loxodon Heirarchs, Indrik Stomphowler, etc? 4 slots is a ton of options, and Mongoose feels pretty underwhelming.
The land base also caught my eye. You have 5 forest, 8 fetches and 7 duals. What about any other basics? I understand that they are a pain because they don't tap for green, but is the resilience to Wasteland and Blood Moon worth it?
In RBGSA, I've been very happy with
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Taiga
3 Bayou
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
5 Forest
I've been trying to come up with a manabase with some more basics for your version, but there really isn't a great way to do it. Has the landbase been great, alright, or is it a problem?
This was the same problem I was having (check like 2 pgs. back - EDIT: Must have been the other Survival thread, oh well.), I replaced him with 4 Harbingers and 2 Doran (I pulled something else, I don't remember what it was) and have been loving it ever since. It gives the deck a solid aggro plan (in addition to Tarmogoyfs) outside of Survival, and smooths mana when you do have Survival.Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryTroll
EDIT: Also, my meta is pretty light on control decks and the Harbinger and Doran plan isn't as good as Mongoose in the control matchup.
I have been working with this deck a little on MWS and am having trouble polishing off my list. I have been using a Burning Wishless version because I wanted room for additional critters and I felt it slow and clunky sometimes. It made the board worse and I would rather just be running a solid SB. Anyways here is my current list.
4 Taiga
3 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Rofellos
2 Eternal Witness
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Anger
1 Squee
1 Genesis
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Darkheart Sliver
1 Ravenous Baloth
1 Indrik Stomphowler
2 Shriekmaw
2 Flametongue Kavu
1 Big Game Hunter
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
I am 1 card over right now and don't have any idea what to cut. I have been thinking about dropping Indrik, but not having a way to deal with crap like Moat, Worship, Confinement, or Prisons would suck and I just know if I ever dropped it, I would get one of those enchantments dropped against me. So my question is, is it needed? I haven't played any games where wishing for it was a must, so I really don't know its power. Any help?
What is better as life gain, Sliver or Feeder? Or would just runnign Baloths main be better? I have never wished for Sliver since it is just smaller, requires black, and doesn't gain as much life. What have people been using?
Here is the SB I have been using.
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tsunami
4 Extirpate
4 Engineered Plague
2 Duress
SB feels good. Enough GY hate, some additional combo hate, Tsunami has been great, and Plague for Gobbos and EtW. It has been very good all around. So thoughts?
Drop Baloth. Way outclassed these days.
Well how much life gain is enough then? Is just Spike Feeder or Darkheart enough? They do help against burn and fast aggro which do scare me.
I'm not an expert on the archetype, but I think dropping Burning Wish is a mistake. When I play against the deck, I *fear* Burning Wish.