[Deck] TES - The EPIC Storm

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Yes, Right of Flame vs Simian Spirit Guide is situations dependent, but Simian Spirit Guide shines in the first two turns of the game, while Right of Flame shines as the game progresses and multiples are drawn.

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This is not entirely accurate. In the first few turns, you haven't seen many cards, and are unlikely to be able to generate a very high storm count. If you need to go off with a Tendrils quickly, as you would in the combo mirror, SSG not adding to the storm count or being replayable via Ill-Gotten Gains will often make it weaker than Rite of Flame. I regularly kill with the perfect 10 Tendrils, as it's difficult to storm for more on an opening grip, and most Tendrils kills revolve around the Gains loop, where SSG is pretty bad. In short, there are matchups where you need to Tendrils early, and SSG seems worse than Rite in those matchups.

Well, it's nice that people like to be impulsive with EtW, but the fact that Rite of Flames add to storm actually is very crucial against a control deck. Against aggro-control, you want Rite of Flames to add to your storm when you're setting up EtW or Double Tendrils. SSG is good because it gets around Lock Components though. I might rather run SSG as a metagame choice.

Hi, it's my first post here.:smile:

I've been following the thread for a couple of weeks, and I'm currently playing TES.

I think Rite of Flame > SSG, and if anyone wants to include the simians in Rite slots, is a metagame call. Reasons are obvious and have been explained before.
However, it seems very important to me the power of Simian when Diminishing and first turn ETW. So, has anyone tested a split 2/2 of Cabal Ritual and SSG? The idea is to make easier to kill with Returns, without losing the storm (when you draw SSG in multiples) and reduce the mulligans decreasing the number of caba ritual.
And what about if we cut the Cabal Rituals and add the SSG (-4/+4)?
The only problems I see in the -4 / +4 is that maybe it would be harder to add BB for Tendrils, but you still have Chrome/Petal/Dark Ritual, and it also would be harder the IGG chain without LED.

I don't know if that changes will work, I'll test this week and we will see.

Can anyone kindly tell me how to sideboard when against Deadguy Ale? Help would be much appreciated. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

Can anyone kindly tell me how to sideboard when against Deadguy Ale? Help would be much appreciated. Thanks!

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-4 Xantid
+4 Dark Confidant

Play aggressively, and test the matchup a bit. Discard is, in my opinion, the easiest form of hate to play through. I'd much rather my opponnent went turn one dark ritual, duress-hymn than went turn one chalice for one-go.

Don't forget about brainstorm, it's the simplest anti-discard combo move in the book, but it's very important.

Also, they'll be boarding in plagues, but it can still be 100% correct to go for EtW sometimes. After you test a lot you should get the hang of it.

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

Well, it's nice that people like to be impulsive with EtW, but the fact that Rite of Flames add to storm actually is very crucial against a control deck. Against aggro-control, you want Rite of Flames to add to your storm when you're setting up EtW or Double Tendrils. SSG is good because it gets around Lock Components though. I might rather run SSG as a metagame choice.

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Daze, Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void are all selling points of the card, one of the things that attracted to me to it was that it was an answer for Stax via Shattering Spree that Vintage Long was using when it replaced its ESGs with SSGs and added Burning Wish so it could use Demonic Consultation. Regardless, one of the more popular decks here is a W/g Stax deck that uses all of the traditional Stax components with Magus of the Tabernacle, Living Wish for the original Tabernacle, Cataclysm and Sylvan Library, so you really have to be able to dig your way out from underneath a Trinisphere or Chalice of the Void if you want to win a match after you've lost the coin flip.

There's a difference between being impulsive with ETW and being tactical with it, I find against a lot of decks that Land, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual into ETW can be used to not win the game, but ware the opponent down, forcing him to cast his threats, dig for answers and lose track of Tendrils. Just going for Diminishing Returns into a large ETW is also better than dealing with a Tormod's Crypt etc.

In an unrelated matter, I've been testing Doomsday in the SB and it has been an interesting inclusion. As long as the deck has a Burning Wish and a Brainstorm in its hand, it can Burning Wish for Doomsday, stack Infernal Tutor, LED, LED, IGG and Tendrils and then cast the Brainstorm for Infernal Tutor, LED, LED and win the game. It's 1R + BBB + U + 1B with out LED to do it in a single turn, and it can be spread out over multiples turns such as, turn one land, Chrome Mox and Burning Wish for Doomsday, turn two land, Dark Ritual casting Doomsday, Brainstorm and then RFG Simian Spirit Guide casting Infernal Tutor turn two for the BBB + U + 1B.

I'm not certain it's needed, but being able to win on turn two with Tendrils and with out LED is enticing, and while some people would just cast the Brainstorm there, against non-Goblins aggro GG is GG if the path to win is in the hand, and against aggro-control the deck could have cast Xantid Swarm and kept Brainstorm back.

I like that idea. It seems like there would be very few times you would actually go for it, but those few times might make the difference. Couldn't hurt to test it.

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Originally Posted by CalebD

I like that idea. It seems like there would be very few times you would actually go for it, but those few times might make the difference. Couldn't hurt to test it.

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It's more or less a non-ETW, non-Diminishing Returns option for when the deck doesn't have LED, I'm not certain the number of occurrences of that warrant the SB slot, but cutting a Shattering Spree isn't the end of the world, and no one is going to see it coming.

I dont exactly understand how the game ends after the doomsday could you describe exactly what happens and if all is in the same turn etc.

thnx

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Originally Posted by DeDennis

I dont exactly understand how the game ends after the doomsday could you describe exactly what happens and if all is in the same turn etc.

thnx

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Here's an example on the draw,

1 Xantid Swarm
1 Burning Wish
1 Brainstorm
1 Dark Ritual
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal
1 City of Brass
1 Gemstone Mine

Turn one: City of Brass, Xantid Swarm and go
Turn two: Draw Burning Wish, Gemstone Mine, Burning Wish for Doomsday
Turn three: Draw Empty the Warrens, cast Dark Ritual, cast Doomsday, cast Lotus Petal, RFG Simian Spirit Guide, cast Brainstorm drawing Infernal Tutor, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond and replace them with Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens, cast Lion's Eye Diamond, cast Lion's Eye Diamond, cast Infernal Tutor and proceed with the Ill Gotten Gains Chain for 12 storm.

There are also a lot of other complications, like being able to replace the Infernal Tutor with Brainstorm and Lion's Eye Diamonds with Dark Rituals and move the Tendrils of Agony to the fourth card of the stack and go straight for the Tendrils of Agony if you have enough storm, against Tormod's Crypt, and you can replace the Tendrils of Agony with an Empty the Warrens, against Meddling Mage etc.

I've done some other real complicated things in the mid game with chaining into three Brainstorms via Brainstorm in hand, Brainstorm on top of the stack, Brainstorm on the fourth card of the stack and Tendrils of Agony on the bottom of the stack to win with a single Tendrils of Agony with out using an Ill Gotten Gains or a Lion's Eye Diamond when the opponent had a Tormod's Crypt and a Meddling Mage on Lion's Eye Diamond.

Disregarding LED, which makes the comparison non-sensible, I think Doomsday is a stronger engine than Ill Gotten Gains, if you really know what you are doing with Doomsday, you can just disregard all of the opponent's hate and win right there.

It gets even more complicated with Street Wraith in the deck, because then the deck can set up the Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Tendrils of Agony stack with out another Brainstorm in hand, but I wouldn't put Street Wraith in the deck just for Doomsday.

It's a complicated card with a lot of potential, with enough mana on the board, the triple Brainstorm stack can just disregard the opponent Force of Will in the discard pile and win, that's huge right there.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

you can replace the Tendrils of Agony with an Empty the Warrens, against Meddling Mage etc.

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Leaving you with 1-2 cards left before you die. I don't like that plan, as the opponent can get out of it with some blockers+StP for life gain. In the case of MM on tendrils I'd rather wish up an answer for mage. After all, if they decide to name tendrils>a combo peice like LED then they probably don't fear EtW, and are more likely to have EE or clasm waiting for you.

It seems very tricky and very fragile without tendrils.

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Originally Posted by CalebD

Leaving you with 1-2 cards left before you die. I don't like that plan, as the opponent can get out of it with some blockers+StP for life gain. In the case of MM on tendrils I'd rather wish up an answer for mage. After all, if they decide to name tendrils>a combo peice like LED then they probably don't fear EtW, and are more likely to have EE or clasm waiting for you.

It seems very tricky and very fragile without tendrils.

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Agreed. Passing the turn with 1 card left in your deck seems a little weak. You lose to random stuff like Standstill + spell.

But I think the Doomsday -> Tendrils idea is strong, mostly because it can turn a hand that otherwise wouldn't be able to Tendrils into a hand that can. Just think of Doomsday as a super tutor and you're not far off.

How good would some copies (likely 1, maybe 2) of the card be MD, either replacing the weaker tutors (Plunge) or as a supplement to the existing tutor package?

So um....

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mf142

This card looks to be ridiculous in a fast combo deck like TES. What do you guys think?

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Originally Posted by CalebD

Leaving you with 1-2 cards left before you die. I don't like that plan, as the opponent can get out of it with some blockers+StP for life gain. It just seems very tricky and very fragile without tendrils, I think in the case of MM on tendrils I'd rather wish up an answer for mage. After all, if they decide to name tendrils>a combo peice like LED then they probably don't fear EtW, and are more likely to have EE or clasm waiting for you.

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It's not that simple, there are a minimum of 2 cards left in the pile, the two cards from Brainstorm, and there can be as much as 4 cards left, so if the pile sets up a storm count for Empty the Warrens at under 10 it has at least 4 turns to win and if it sets up an Empty the Warrens for more than that it has at least 2 to 3 turns to win, if you can't win with Empty the Warrens before you draw 4 to 2 cards with an inversely proportional storm count, you weren't going to win any way.

People name LED all the time, it doesn't mean that they're holding a Pyroclasm, it just means that they don't want you to do anything ridiculous with your tutors.

The card isn't fragile, it's just complicated, and as long as the Brainstorm and the mana is there it's almost a guaranteed win.

Here are some examples,

BBBB and UUU = appr. win with out IGG or LED

Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, cast Doomsday, stack the deck with Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm and Tendrils of Agony, cast Brainstorm and draw Brainstorm, Dark Ritual and Dark Ritual putting two irrelevant cards back, cast Dark Ritual, cast Dark Ritual, cast Brainstorm and draw two irrelevant cards and Tendrils of Agony, cast Tendrils of Agony for 9 storm.

You can reduce the costs to BBBB and UU for 8 storm via moving the Tendrils of Agony to the fourth card in the stack.

BBB(1B) + R(1R) + U(U,U)= modular storm engine for Empty the Warrens

Dark Ritual, cast Doomsday, stack Right of Flame, Right of Flame, Empty the Warrens, Brainstorm drawing Right of Flame, Right of Flame, Empty the Warrens and put two irrelevant cards back, four cards remain, cast Right of Flame for RR, cast Right of Flame for RRR, Empty the Warrens for 6.

You can increase the storm count to 7 via adding a Brainstorm on top of the stack, and you can increase the storm count to 8 via replacing the third card on the stack with Brainstorm, and you can increase the storm count to 9 via replacing the fourth card on the stack with Infernal Tutor or

So, U increases the storm count by one and reduces the total number of turns Empty the Warrens can attack by, and you can do this twice, 1B increases the storm count by one and reduces the total number of turns Empty the Warrens can attack by, and you can do this thrice, and 1R increase the storm count by one and doesn't reduce the total number of turns the Empty the Warrens can attack, and you can do this once.

You can also replace the first instance of Red mana with an additional Black mana via altering the stack's use of Right of Flame, Right of Flame to Dark Ritual and Lotus Petal or Simian Spirit Guide to circumvent Null Rod.

BBB + U = MD Tendrils win using LED to cast multiple cantrips and either another LED or other accelerants for Tendrils of Agony.

Dark Ritual, Doomsday for Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, irrelevant, Tendrils of Agony, and now Brainstorm, floating UUU from LED and 2BB for Tendrils of Agony, drawing Brainstorm, Brainstorm and Brainstorm, put two Brainstorms back, Brainstorm drawing Brainstorm, Brainstorm and irrelevant and put Brainstorm and irrelevant black, Brainstorm drawing Brainstorm, irrelevant and Tendrils of Agony putting irrelevant and Tendrils of Agony back, Brainstorm drawing 3 cards and lose*

*Ok, that last part was to get the point across that replacing something in the deck (a Cabal Ritual) with a Sleight of Hand lets the deck complete this stack with out a problem.

Replacing the final Brainstorm with Sleight of Hand, Sleight of Hand revealing irrelevant and Tendrils of Agony, keep Tendrils of agony and put irrelevant on the bottom of your library (last card in the deck) and cast Tendrils of Agony.

Ok, assuming the deck can get 3 blue cantrips off of LED, that means that Dark Ritual, Doomsday, Lion's Eye Diamond and Brainstorm is 4 storm and the stack itself, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Sleight of Hand, irrelevant and Tendrils of Agony is 4 storm, so if you can find the mana to cast the Tendrils of Agony you should be able to win the game with it.

You can also pass the turn after casting Doomsday if you don't have a Brainstorm, which trades storm for mana, and you can set up similar multi Brainstorm stacks if you use Plunge into Darkness for one instead of Brainstorm to draw the first Brainstorm on the stack, it replaces the first instance of U with an instance of 1B, and that last stack can replace the Sleight of Hand with a Plunge into Darkness if it exchanges a U for 1B at the end of the stack.

There are also non-LED based Ill Gotten Gains piles to avoid Null Rod, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ill Gotten Gains, Tendrils of Agony for example lets the deck Brainstorm drawing Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ill Gotten Gains, cast Dark Ritual, cast Dark Ritual, cast Ill Gotten Gains recurring Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, and then cast Dark Ritual, cast Dark Ritual, cast Brainstorm drawing garbage, garbage and Tendrils of Agony for the win at a cost of BBBB + UU and you can change the pile to Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ill Gotten Gains, Brainstorm, Tendrils of Agony and then use Plunge into Darkness for BBBBB1 + U which you can easily do with two rituals, one blue mana and one or more colorless sources depending on whether or not those rituals were Cabal Rituals.

Ok, I'm about positive that Doomsday is a great engine to have access to in combo if you understand how to use the card and you have the mana,

The cheapest one turn win I've found so far is 1R + BBBB + UU for Burning Wish for that last pile with Brainstorm in hand, can't use LED, and the deck has good odds of getting that pile if it uses Simian Spirit Guide instead of Right of Flame to enable UU off of a Lotus Petal or a second land drop, which is real important.

I also think that if the deck can cast Burning Wish, cast Doomsday, cast Brainstorm with 2 Lion's Eye Diamond it can use a modified version of that cantrip stack to win with instead of going for the Infernal Tutor for a second copy of LED and then Burning Wish for Ill Gotten Gains plan, which avoids using Ill Gotten Gain with a Force of Will in the discard pile.

Ok, I'm going to go sleep for awhile, that took about all of the critical thinking I have.

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Originally Posted by outsideangel

Agreed. Passing the turn with 1 card left in your deck seems a little weak. You lose to random stuff like Standstill + spell.

But I think the Doomsday -> Tendrils idea is strong, mostly because it can turn a hand that otherwise wouldn't be able to Tendrils into a hand that can. Just think of Doomsday as a super tutor and you're not far off.

How good would some copies (likely 1, maybe 2) of the card be MD, either replacing the weaker tutors (Plunge) or as a supplement to the existing tutor package?

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Separate post because the last one was complicated enough,

DDAY is not just a tutor, it is an engine, similar to Gifts Ungiven, it just requires having a Brainstorm in hand, a Plunge into Darkness to tutor for the Brainstorm on top of the deck or passing the turn to go off.

I haven't even figured out the ramifications on the stacks after I manage to Burning Wish for Doomsday, cast Doomsday on turn one or turn two and then pass the turn, which I can manage to do with one land, Dark Ritual, Simian Spirit Guide and one other source of mana, I figured after this the deck should go for the Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ill Gotten Gains, Tendrils of Agony stack or the modular Empty the Warrens stacks, but you have to figured out how to use Empty the Warrens in that Ill Gotten Gains stack in order to have a good enough storm count for a 2 turn win or luck sack some extra storm for the Tendrils kill from some where.

I have no idea what happens when this deck puts Doomsday in the deck, because Plunge into Darkness removes a bunch of shit and it gets really fucking complicated to assemble your stacks, and Doomsday is situational unless you want to pass the turn, you have Brainstorm or you have Plunge into Darkness in hand to go off on that turn with it or you want to start adding Street Wraith.

I'm sure something could be done with it, but passing the turn or requiring one of 12 other cards in hand and the absolute mind fuck of the card is enough to make me say I'd just stick to adding it to the SB.

I don't think Plunge into Darkness is weak, in fact I think it's stronger than Infernal Tutor.

Ok, seriously, I need rest. I'll answer your questions after my sanity returns, but if you look at the piles for yourself, you'll see how insane this card is under the right conditions; I'm literally not even giving a shit about Meddling Mage or Null Rod against Threshold, and that is just absurd.

it seems to me that to use doomsday optimaly you want to go of the turn you doomsday, but in most cases you showed you needed a source of black, red and multiple blue.That is almost impossible to do early in the game without LED or multiple lotus petals. I like doomsday cause it's really cool but I am not convinced it's not a win more card yet. I hope it turns out to be good.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Daze, Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void are all selling points of the card, one of the things that attracted to me to it was that it was an answer for Stax via Shattering Spree that Vintage Long was using when it replaced its ESGs with SSGs and added Burning Wish so it could use Demonic Consultation. Regardless, one of the more popular decks here is a W/g Stax deck that uses all of the traditional Stax components with Magus of the Tabernacle, Living Wish for the original Tabernacle, Cataclysm and Sylvan Library, so you really have to be able to dig your way out from underneath a Trinisphere or Chalice of the Void if you want to win a match after you've lost the coin flip.

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5c Grim Long? They dropped ESG, and probably even SSG as well a long time ago in favor of cards that actually answer Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, and Meddling Mage. It stopped running ESG because it already found a way to answer it right there.

As for Stax, it seems like a hard match-up. But however, Combo isnt suppose to be naturally good against Stax, ad Stax shouldnt really be good in general because of the excess mulligans. I stopped playing Faerie Stompy and Stax because of the excess mulligans. The best way to answer Stax is using an early EtW, Shattering Spree, or bouncing it or something...

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There's a difference between being impulsive with ETW and being tactical with it, I find against a lot of decks that Land, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual into ETW can be used to not win the game, but ware the opponent down, forcing him to cast his threats, dig for answers and lose track of Tendrils. Just going for Diminishing Returns into a large ETW is also better than dealing with a Tormod's Crypt etc.

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I play that way too, but I dont commit entirely to the EtW. I just go EtW for 4-8, and start smashing face for the next 3 turns, and Tendrils half way with the storm of 5 or so.

Doomsday.... Interesting.

Now I could see this as a 1-of in the sideboard as an additional engine. Like outsideangel said - think of it as a super tutor. If you cast it, you win. You have to be careful against control decks, but our resident bees could take care of them.

Doomsday seems to pretty much turn a hand that can't go off into a win. I'd think that you'd want to go off the turn you cast it and not give your opponent a chance to do something completely random and win. (i.e. standstill + another spell, glimpse the unthinkable, target player draw spells)

I'll test this idea myself as a 1-of in the board.

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Originally Posted by Anti~American4621

5c Grim Long? They dropped ESG, and probably even SSG as well a long time ago in favor of cards that actually answer Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, and Meddling Mage. It stopped running ESG because it already found a way to answer it right there.

As for Stax, it seems like a hard match-up. But however, Combo isnt suppose to be naturally good against Stax, ad Stax shouldnt really be good in general because of the excess mulligans. I stopped playing Faerie Stompy and Stax because of the excess mulligans. The best way to answer Stax is using an early EtW, Shattering Spree, or bouncing it or something...



I play that way too, but I dont commit entirely to the EtW. I just go EtW for 4-8, and start smashing face for the next 3 turns, and Tendrils half way with the storm of 5 or so.

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Not that I'm aware of, most of the 5c Grim Tutor decks still use a Spirit Guide instead of another mana source, Cabal Ritual, not another answer to Stax.

One of the reasons I use SSG is because the metagame here is combo, aggro-control and prison, and Stax does not lose to Warrens, because it has 4 Magus of the Tabernacle, Cataclysm and our versions run 4 Living Wish for Wasteland 5-7 and Tabernacle 5-8 along with Glowrider, True Believer and Voidstone Gargoyle with Sylvan Library to make the deck consistent, it's some scary shit to see across the table for any one.

It is a metagame choice, but the card in and of itself is good with Draw 7's, and I've won games off of the 2/2 dealing two points of damage a turn while I searched for a Tendril in top deck mode against control.

@DDAY

DDAY isn't suppose to be the "Go to Threat" in this deck, it's just there in case the deck doesn't draw LED and to allow it to completely out play the opponent in the middle of the game; I've literally been beating Threshold over the head with it for about a day, you just have to be good with your stacking and you can ignore most of their hate.

It lets this deck do things it damn well shouldn't be able to do.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

One of the reasons I use SSG is because the metagame here is combo, aggro-control and prison

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It sounds to me like TES is a terrible deck for your field. Just sayin'. I think that a lot of your decision making could be distorted due to playing in a metagame that's clearly very unfavortable for the deck.