[Deck] Landstill - Former DTB

As far as I can see, there's no reason to take out disk/vengeance when you're talking about boarding in more disenchant effects--just use one of those to remove all the jittes, vials, and needles all at once (oh yeah, and creatures too!). I know they're a bit slow, but those board sweepers are in there chiefly to deal with aggro decks that overextend, so if you're gonna board them out against goblins why are you running them in the first place? I'd more quickly board out dragons (if you run them) and possibly crucibles. Also, with the decline of white splash, Humility is pretty much game if it hits the table, and most landstill decks run DoJ anyway.

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Originally Posted by pater

Mute, if you want to see some of our answers to red in general, look at the last few pages of this thread. We note Chill, CoP:red, and other cards against Goblins and other red matchups.

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Well yes, I've read them and tried all of it and it just isn't enough... I feel you're still at the disadvantage. I only haven't tried Humility but I'm doubtfull it wil solve your problems. It comes down turn four if you're a bit lucky (it is four mana and it requires double white) and then still, there are a lot of Goblins on the other side! 1/1's for sure but seven of them still do 7 damage. And you're tapped out turn four against Goblins, not something you like to do. At first glance I feel Moat is a better option then. If they run disenchant, both options will get you killled.

Actually I don't understand why they would do away with the white splash. It doesn't hurt the deck too much in my opinion. So I expect them to play Disenchant. That's why I was looking for a creature based solution. Pro Red should take you a long way. If You can negate the Piledrivers you're in better shape. Yes, Lackey and Ringleader are problematic but you'd be amazed how good Shackles is! If I was to board in creatures, I would complement them with some Hydroblasts. Together they will hold back the goblin army long enough for your Shackles to become magic, I think... I'm trying it at least.

I think I still prefer Circle of protection: Red over Chill. Chill doesn't stop the damage and the circle cannot be countered/destroyed with REB or Pyroblast. Just be sure to take care of the Needles! I also board in two extra Disenchant (with two main deck already) for the Needles. I don't like the Vials but Needle is a lot worse if you play COP: Red.

If the creature solution doesn't work, and I don't have high hopes, I think I'll go with the COP: Red. In my experience it's better to prevent damage and Wrath the board clean if it gets to big. Just be careful that next turn the Goblin player doesn't go: Piledriver, Piledriver, Warchief... Keep a counter ready for the Warchief!

I still feel it is a difficult matchup and a very good deck. I don't like it but now it looks like Vial Goblins will be the nemesis matchup for Landstill. I didn't have any problems with other decks, you're capable to win them all except for the green army of doom. I seem to be able to just win one out of three and that isn't good enough because we will get to see more of this deck I'm sure.

@ Scarface: Agreed you want more disenchant effects but the ones you suggest just take too long to come down! I don't want to see an Akroma's Vengeance against Goblins! Six mana!!! When facing 4 Wasteland and 4 Rishadan Ports... I would prefer Disk any time but it will also take four turns and will do its job turn five. Way too late in my experience. I was playing Disks main but changed them to Shackles now and I feel better.

Greetings,

Odd Mute.

How about warmth? It isn't vulnerable to pithing needle or reb, and it buys you time to build up mana for those slower board sweepers. Plus, it shuts down burn decks, which I find to be nearly as scary a matchup as goblins.

Note: If this post appears twice, it's because something went wrong the first time and I thought it got deleted.

Scarface,

Remember that when they Vial out a creature or put it into play with Lackey you get nothing. I don't know but I will try and test it as soon as I have the opportunity.

Odd Mute.

I would put 4 Elemental Blasts in the Sb, together with a few Hydroblasts. That should slow them down long enough. The Blasts also kill first turn Lackeys, and if not you also have 4 STP's available.
The biggest problem I encountered was that you couldn't get any board advantage so you can't cast your Standstills. With the help of the Blasts that might change, but I haven't tested it yet.

Cop is not good enough since it's too mana intensive and dies to Needle and Disenchant.
Moat is not good enoug because it's too slow, dies to disenchant and requires you to play Dragons (since Conclaves die to Sharpshooters and landdestruction).
Wrath of God is a decent answer, be it somewhat costly.
But I'm still gonna try the 4 Hydroblasts and 4 Beb's , because Landstill can win against almost anything except for Vial Goblins. It hurts me to cripple my SB like that, but it's necessary.

Then there's the question: what to take out? In my version: Crucibles (tapping out on turn three for a card that does very little is not good), Disks (too slow), Cunning Wish (I play them) are viable contenders, but you have to remember that when you plan to put 8 cards in the deck, you also have to take 8 out and some decks just don't have room for that.
And Shackles are great, I can't see why other players don't use it. You can even use it to steal your opponent's manlands, so it's almost never a dead card.

I would side out Fact or Fiction and Eternal Dragon when playing against goblins, as well as DoJ, Crucible, or Vengeance, depending on your sideboard plan/maindeck configuration. DoJ comes out (turn 5-7 answer) unless you side Humility, Crucible comes out if you maindeck it (you shouldn't, its dead against Goblins, who are Public Enemy #1), and Vengeance comes out if you run the Chill/Needle Plan. Pulse of the Fields should just always come in, it slows them down by 3-4 turns at least (run as a 2-of). At this point in time, Chill/Needle/Pulse seems like the best sideboard option, because the needles are very useful against the now-commonly-maindecked Port/Wasteland assault (which is one reason Goblins has a better matchup than before against Landstill), not to mention the fact that Needles stop Vial. Chill is good because it can be very useful against Burn as well. Lastly, sideboarding 2-3 Enlightened Tutors could be a possibility, in order to get 2 chills by turn 3-4 more consistently. My board, with the maindeck listed in the first post, would look something like this, going against a Survival-light, Goblins-heavy meta (i.e. Everywhere):

2 Pulse of the Fields
4 Chill
3 Pithing Needle
3 Crucible
3 E. Tutor

With that brainstorm out of the way, I think that it is time again to consider maindecking E.Tutor, with a tiny toolbox, to aide in the difficult goblins matchup. Humility in game 1? That would be hot, even if it isn't Post-Board. Thats my thoughts on the nasty little red shits.

Edit: I just tested several games pre- and post- board with E. Tutor, and Humility is bad. It doesn't stop goblins. They will just cast some 1/1s and beat you down, b/c you cannot keep up with their onslaught, and turn 4 is too slow. On the other hand, Chill, CoP:Red, and E. Tutor pre/post board is a wrecking ball. They can play around one or two or them, but with pithing needle stoping many of their key threats in the mathup, combined with 3-4 enchantment hosers hitting the board, aggressive mulliganing will carry the game again and again.

I'll say it again. With the rise of the goblin dominance, Tivadar's Crusade is a viable contender for 2-3 SB slots. I'm pretty sure my SB for gobs (and burn, by association) is going to be

+3 Tivadar
+2 Cop: Red (maybe Warmth or Pulse, i haven't decided yet)
+2 Chill

-3 Mana Leak (I'm running 11 counters)
-2 EDragons
-2 FoF

That gives you 9 Board Sweepers, plus 4 Swords and 3 Disenchant. The combination of COP and Chill has been great, if you can keep Lackey and Vial under wraps (not that hard with 8 counters and all the removal) the Chills really are MVPish. I've tested about 10 games so far, and it looks like enough to make the match pretty favorable. White mana is always an issue, because it is, but its a lot harder for them to Alpha Strike when its impossible for them to overcommit to the board.

How about reverence instead of moat or humility? You can also board in something cheaper like beb or chill to slow them down enough to drop the reverence, though this might be too many cards in the sb to devote to one deck.

I don't think Landstill's problem resides in killing Goblins. It's the fact that you have to tap out on turn 4 for Wrath, and they respond by dropping a Ringleader and refill their hand and ready to go at it again.

I have a quick question, how many Stifles do you guys run between main and SB? If any at all. Stifles can act as psudo-counters against Goblin decks. Stifling a Ringleader for example, turns it into a 4cc 2/2 Haste that gets chumped by Factory. Stifles can help combat Wasteland. It can turn Matron into 3cc 1/1, and it has uses against Solidarity and a variety of the fields. Stopping fetchland is also another way of denying Goblin splash decks their splash colour, allowing Humility to do its job and turn Goblins into 1/1 dorks that gets chumped by DoJ all day long.

The other way of dealing with Goblins is the shift in colour. In my own meta, I begin to see URW Landstills more so than UW. While weaker in mana base, the addition of Fire/Ice and Bolts really packs a punch against Goblins. Most of them will now be FORCED to overextend, thereby walking into a Wrath with heavy casulties.

I'm not much of a Landstill player myself, but I did some testing with TB awhile back with him playing Vial Goblins with Ports and Jittes, and my SB contained 3x Chill and 3x Angel. It worked rather well, actually. If you're looking for an SB solution, it may be worth considering. Because the newer builds are running Ports, their red mana count is lower than ever before. This means that, assuming you can keep Needles off the table with countermagic and/or Disenchants, you will stunt their development greatly with Chill. Follow that up with a quick, difficult-to-remove clock like Angel, and it's not that difficult to seal the game. Often, it's not that big a risk to drop a turn 3 morph against Goblins, because they only have 3-4 Incinerators as an answer.

In any case, the combination worked well for me, but I certainly wouldn't say that I've tested the matchup to be sure it's a consistent answer. I suggest trying Angel in conjunction with some other form of hate, though, be it Chill, CoP:Red, Absolute Law or whatever.

Another card to consider would be Wing Shards. It's super underrated. Remember that Goblins operates by dropping multiple threats in a single turn, and then attacking with multiple hasted threats. Their method of play has a tendency to build Storm count for you, and they absolutely have to play aggressively to race your board sweepers, and so Shards really has an opportunity to shine here. Additionally, it's playable on thrid turn, which buys you the time you need to gain the late game advantage with WoG's, Vengences, and FoF's. The card is highly underrated. It deserves testing for the Goblins matchup.

If you really see alot of Goblins and Burn, just use a SB like this.

4 Tivadars crusade
2 pulse
4 chill
2 COP: Red
3 Pithing needle/Decree/SolidarityHate/etc...

Goblins and Burn are obviously very strong from the results they've put up. This sb should turn those matchups into a joke. Thats the SB I would play.

I think that midnightAce hit it right on the money: Landstill's problems DO NOT reside in killing goblins. I know that I can wrath goblins 2-3 times per game, however, I still do not beat them enough. I think that CoP, Pulse, and Chill will shut them out of the match entirely, allowing your pseudo-lock to win. Reverence also deserves a look. On the flip side, if we modify Landstill to beat goblins so much, would it be better just to switch decks? Temporary Solution-esqe decks would obviously have a better game against goblins. I'm going to continue testing Landstill with various enchantment-based answers to Goblins, and I will report back on how the matchups turned out, as well as how other matchups were affected.

That's waaaaay too much red hate. I realize that red poses problems, but seriously, dedicating that much hate to these matchups seems a bit overboard. If the real problem is Goblins' recovery from mass removal via Ringleader, why is Stifle not being discussed as an SB option? It was always a strong choice against FCG, and there's no reason it shouldn't be here as well. It turns Matron into ino a 3cc Mons' Goblin Raider, it prevent Lackey trigger, temporarily deals with Vial while you dig for a way to remove it permanently, and prevents Ringleader card advantage. On top of all that, it has merit against a great deal of the rest of the field.

Considering that stifle is so effective against both goblins and solidarity, why don't landstill players just mainboard them? It certainly has uses against the other tier one decks as well, such as ATS and in the mirror. When would a stifle really be dead? Angel stompy? I don't think thats such a bad matchup anyway. I'm not sure what I would take out of the standard landstill build, but maybe it would be wise to make room for this card.

I believe I have found our holy grail. Reverance. This enchantment slows goblins down by 5 or more turns, enough time to wrath, get counters online, and begin beats with eternal dragon or angel tokens. These are the key points of the modification I propose:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

//Maindeck
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [SOK] Reverance

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [SOK] Reverance
SB: 2 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 3 [TE] Chill
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [5E] Circle of Protection: Red

The maindeck Reverance/Crucible offers more flexibility game one, assisting against both control and Goblins/Small-Creature Aggro. The sideboard strenghens your hate against goblins, allowing you do morph into a deck that locks them out, depending on their build. The Crucibles remain to keep control as a favorable matchup. Pulse of the Fields and Reverance can turn around the game against many aggressive decks, and an effective 6 copies of Pithing Needle plus Brainstorms makes Survival and Belcher cry. Chill are CoP are primarily for Goblins, but they obviously neutralize burn and can help (as 1-ofs, depending on the circumstances) against RGSA. I think that this can help turn around Landstill's poor matchup against Goblins. By the way, did I mention that Reverance owns Goblins?

Is COP:Red really that good? We've heard alot about goblins just laying down the beats while the opponent tries to topdeck a second WOG. I heard Zvi lost in that fasion. wouldn't Tivadar's in addition to COP:Red in the SB wipe that matchup clean? I'm going to keep COP in the sb but the debate with me is over Wing Shards or Crusade. Wing Shards should kill more goblins when they go for the Alpha Strike on turn 4. Tivadars would need to be casted on your turn for safety, and would prolly kill alot, but not as many as Shards would. Later game however, Tivadars would be so much better than Shards. With COP in play and on the topdeck, Tivadars would double your chances of getting a sweeper, and basically ensure the victory. What does everyone think?
Shards or Tivadar's?

I too have looked at Reverance, and also noticed that it is a lock with Humility to any creature based strategy (Go Go Jander!). With Decree of Justice this lock becomes alot better, as well as Crucible/Mishras factory with it. Could this lock also possibly be incorporated into the deck?

I have played Reverence (while playing landstill) versus goblins before (specifically at Big Arse 2). At that point there are 3 cards you have to counter.

1. Sharpshooter (which the Goblin player has most likely sided out)
2. Anarchy
3. Seige-Gang Commander

If you get Reverence in play you do not need Humility. It is the best anti-Goblins card, much better than Tividar's Crusade.

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I believe I have found our holy grail. Reverance. This enchantment slows goblins down by 5 or more turns, enough time to wrath, get counters online, and begin beats with eternal dragon or angel tokens. These are the key points of the modification I propose:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)

//Maindeck
1 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [SOK] Reverance

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [SOK] Reverance
SB: 2 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 3 [TE] Chill
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [5E] Circle of Protection: Red

The maindeck Reverance/Crucible offers more flexibility game one, assisting against both control and Goblins/Small-Creature Aggro. The sideboard strenghens your hate against goblins, allowing you do morph into a deck that locks them out, depending on their build. The Crucibles remain to keep control as a favorable matchup. Pulse of the Fields and Reverance can turn around the game against many aggressive decks, and an effective 6 copies of Pithing Needle plus Brainstorms makes Survival and Belcher cry. Chill are CoP are primarily for Goblins, but they obviously neutralize burn and can help (as 1-ofs, depending on the circumstances) against RGSA. I think that this can help turn around Landstill's poor matchup against Goblins. By the way, did I mention that Reverance owns Goblins?

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One of the major reasons for running enlightened tutor should be to let you run fewer copies of conditional cards, like reverance, both in the MB and in the SB. Yet, you're suggesting 5 red hate cards in the sideboard in addition to two reverance and two pulses. If you're really that desperate to own goblins, then you might as well devote the rest of your sideboard while your at it. The real dilemma is having enough anti-goblin cards in the sb to win the match, while still saving room for cards that deal with other matchups (crucible and pithing needle aren't gonna solve all other problems). I suggest at least choosing bewteen cop or chill, and reducing the number of copies to 2 (3 max).

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Originally Posted by GodzillA

That's waaaaay too much red hate. I realize that red poses problems, but seriously, dedicating that much hate to these matchups seems a bit overboard. If the real problem is Goblins' recovery from mass removal via Ringleader, why is Stifle not being discussed as an SB option? It was always a strong choice against FCG, and there's no reason it shouldn't be here as well. It turns Matron into ino a 3cc Mons' Goblin Raider, it prevent Lackey trigger, temporarily deals with Vial while you dig for a way to remove it permanently, and prevents Ringleader card advantage. On top of all that, it has merit against a great deal of the rest of the field.

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Stifle is just not good enough. It's not a permanent solution, since it can only stall one turn (Vial, Lackey) and then is card disadvantage. When stifling a Ringleader or Matron you also generate card disadvantage for yourself. I almost never used it during the whole tournament an I'll probably move it to the SB next time.
I still say: 4 Beb and 4 Hydroblast should solve the problem, since you can simply out-counter them so you can use your Standstills to generate cardadvantage.

Reverance seems like a neat idea, however, it another WW 4cc spell versus a deck that is increasingly running both Ports AND Wastelands. How reliably can the deck pull off a trick like this in the face of that sort of disruption? Ironically, Stifle (on their Wasteland) strengthens the possibility of Reverance (or WoG) coming into play....