16 land and 4x Hierarch...Quote:
Originally Posted by umbowta
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16 land and 4x Hierarch...Quote:
Originally Posted by umbowta
Yeah, I don't think anyone is running any 15L version without hierarch backup, even because some of our powerfull sideboards are 3cc like Krosan Grip or Seeds. But even if you can manage to cut all of that, you still want the extra land to double-pumps.Quote:
Originally Posted by umbowta
As a side note, the chance of getting 2 or more lands in 10 draws(inicial + 3 turn draws) with 15 lands is 77%, and with 18 it's 86%. Even though, if you disconsider hands with 5 or more lands (which means: 2+3+4 lands in 10 draws), you have 42% with 15 lands, and 50% with 18...
And if you consider 7 draws, and ideal hands of 2~3 lands, the most favorable number we will get is 60%, and 18 lands has 57% of chance on getting 2~3, while 15 has 50%.
Further information on this may be found here: http://www.filefront.com/15378711/Cards%20Check.xls
Now, about the tests with Martyr of Spores, I discontinued it. Against Zoo it gets pretty worse. It's burneable, and it's a 2cc pump that requires you to hold your cards to work well. And since I was runnig him instead of a pump, I was willing to get a pump, not a 1/1 vanilla. Maybe Pendelhaven can work something out for him, and then run it instead of nettle/elite?
Although, I don't think I wanna test pendelhaven anymore... It does't like rancor in silhana/bogle, and don't like the remeaning creatures, and so, it got a low % of chance of being good.
It taps for green mana, doesn't come into play tapped, and it can pump any one of the approximately 12 1/1's you may have in play. If only it weren't legendary. Even so I'm running two of them and love it. Yes, sometimes I don't have a 1/1 to pump but it still taps for green. I honestly can't believe I have to argue for its inclusion at all when I've heard so many folks saying they lose to mana screw/having only 1/1 in play with no pumps left..Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
It's personal, but I dont use it because I prefer basic forest. I don't think the advantage it brings is better than the disadvantage of having non-basic, and thus, wastland targets. It's not because it taps for green and do something else that it's better than basic forest.Quote:
Originally Posted by umbowta
I tend to agree. A lot of decks are running 4 x Wasteland. We run 100% basics for a reason, and low land count. You cannot afford to have a precious land wasted just for to add 1 damage to your Bogle.
Actually, I can afford to have a land Wasted...since there are 17 more where that one came from, 13 of which are basic forests. Now if I happen to get stuck on 2 nonbasics (out of 5 total in the deck) AND they happen to have 2 wastelands, then I frown. Also, its not just for adding one damage to bogle. I don't even run bogle for the simple fact that it has no built in evasion. Troll shroud is good but evasion is king.Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidFiend
I've been running 18 land in the deck since I tested Chapuzas' version over a year ago and felt like the deck needed one more land. I won the Beta Bash with that build but I still felt like it was missing something. The deck runs best on 3 land but any past that is just pointless. Horizon Canopy and Pendlehaven are both gas in the late game when you can cycle canopies away for extra cards and/or use pendlehaven to make Silhana just a little bit bigger before you Berserk it for the last few points.
In my opinion, Horizon Canopy is somehow better than pendelhaven, since it's harder to be wasted (draw a card in response), and since an extra card seems to be better than aditional +1/+2 to some creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by umbowta
What are you running on sideboard right now?
I am running 4 Canopies in a white/green deck with Aether Vial, they are most welkom if you have too many lands. Vial is just great if they have wasteland.
I am willing to try them out in my Stompy deck. I will give Pendelhaven a try also. I will go back to 17 lands though. Even with 4 Hierarch in the deck.
Agreed. My testing leads me to believe that 3 is the right number for Canopy. I don't mind multiples in the late game but I don't want an opening hand flooded with them either. Pendlehaven, as you suggest, is good to a lesser degree. I fluctuate between 1 and 2 of them...too bad I can't run 1.5.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
My current sideboard is set up for a meta containing control, thresh based aggro control, and other aggro decks(which I essentially ignore).
4x Rushwood Legate
3x Reverent Silence
3x Seeds of Innocence
3x Krosan Grip
2x Tormod's Crypt
The one I can see you questioning, Reverent Silence, is there for White Stax and Enchantress. Whether they're hiding behind Ghostly Prison/Oblivion Ring or Elephant Grass etc...Reverent Silence is game breaking even if you don't have Kavu on the battlefield.
Have to comment that I was using exact the same numbers here. Thought I was too wierd doing that, at least I'm not the only one. ^_^Quote:
Originally Posted by umbowta
This part of the side seems to be able to enter into a lot of games.
Checking: Enchantress, Stax, Aggro-Loam (chalice, moxes and words), Affinity, CB top (I like Reverent silence against it), and probably some other things I'm missing.
Then I run 3 Tormods mostly against Loam -n- Ichorid.
Just was thinking about the Zoo matchup that isn't impossibly bad, but isn't good match either... that's why I was concerned about it. Just wanted to add something (even reducing something else) to handle it to at least 60% postboard, but can't be sure on what to use.
I did consider Jitte, or simply Bounty of the Hunt (since I don't run them), or even Troll Ascetic.
I don't run legate, never felt like it broke some matchup for me, and usually, blue on the other side is a color in our favor already. I used to side shusher, but now I'm not sure about him either...
I'm about the only one locally who is willing to pilot Zoo. Most others I talk to around here have a low oppinion of that DTB and they opt to play Thresh, Landstill, Aggro-Loam, Stax, Enchantress, and some players try to pilot Combo and fail to themselves...so I tend not to board locally for combo or Zoo. That leaves me room for Legate which is total beatings against blue based control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
This is the side I'll be using:Quote:
Originally Posted by umbowta
3 Tormod's
3 Seeds
3 Reverent
3 Krosan
3 Troll Ascetic
Although it seems useless sometimes, I also like adding a singleton Gaea's Blessing, so maybe I'll be cutting Seeds down to 2.
I believe Troll can bring the victory against Zoo only by showing up and denying their 1cc attacks, since it can chump-block + regen, and can't be removed. So, it seems the best option to bring that match to a greater level.
IMHO, Eva Green and Team America are already favorable, but Troll shall be good here too.
From what we consider to be good matchs, most of the control decks (besides stax) are already favorable, and siding Grips to counter-attack E.E., deeds, Shackles, threads, and other possible stuff seems fine enough.
Against Stax, Affinity, Enchantress, Painter, and other possible Artifact/Enchantment intense matchs, the 3-3-3 configuration always comes in. Against CB+Top, Krosan grip and maybe Reverent shall be enough, since if they cant cb-top-lock us, the match gets easier.
Against Aggro loam and Ichorid I'd side Tormod's, and krosan against loam. Ichorid isn't favorable by just adding tormods, but we do have a chance of killing then before they combo without it. As a awsome tech, don't forget to berserk some guy to break bridge. =)
ANT and TES depends on their build, but if they don't use Ill Gotten Gains, them I got nothing SB. If it's a much expected matchup, I would change the Zoo-hate for Combo-hate, probably Mindbreak trap (which needs testing). Even though, it's an unfavorable match. As it's been said, try to rush them so that AN can't be abused.
Against Dream Halls if you see any, try to rush him, so he will be forced to combo with progenitus. They spend quite some life to use lim-dul. Progenitus gives you 2 attacks before your death (with 1 chump-block), but it's still possible to kill them by turn 4~5.
Did I miss anything?
You mean a select few of those 3-3-3 come in right? I don't think I'd ever want to board in all 9 of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
I had a singleton Gaea's Blessing in the board and it might has well have been a 2 of clubs. It literally felt totally useless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
My initial reaction to Troll in the board is, "Not a chance". I think it's too little, too late. Their 1cc guys trade with Troll before you get regen online and by that time in the game you're probably getting close to being burned out with or without a troll. It's seems to me that stalling the Zoo rush just long enough to put together a big finish is all that might be needed. I put together a list of a few possibilities:
Constant Mists
Fruition
Avoid Fate
Traproot Kami
VoV
Xantid Swarm
Maze of Ith
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Moments Peace
Tangle
Kitchen Finks
Phantom Nantuko
Meekstone
These are all aimed at either avoiding their removal or just slowing the Zoo rush down a bit. There might be something you find is worth trying. Let us know how it works out though.
Wow, of course I meant that! ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by umbowta
Hmmm... yeah... Only use is against High Tide, and I see it close to never.Quote:
Originally Posted by umbowta
Well, it was tested by Otter, although in a different version of the deck, but I'm pretty sure he mentioned that Troll did great.Quote:
Originally Posted by umbowta
I don't think it's slow although it won't solve the problem all the time. I think by third~fourth turn Zoo can't beat us, even if they get closer by those turns. Zoo is faster when draw less removal, and in that situation, they can't slow us down, making it easier to survive.
By turn 3, with 18 lands you will have 3 lands ~60% of the time.
Of course I'm not counting only on that (since I would find Troll by turn 3 with 3 lands on board like 25% of the matchs, considering it's chance to appear).
I already play 3 Vines of Vastwood maindeck, and I also play 4 Bogle + 4 Silhana, which is a lot of burn-proof. I know it may sound reduntant, but VoV is slower than seal, but has more Damage, which is some advantage, making it less sub-optimal when I don't need the protection.
Well, can't say anything else before tests.
New pump from WWK:
Groundswell G
Instant (common)
Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
Landfall - If you had a land enter the battlefield under your control this turn, that creature gets +4/+4 until end of turn instead.
A better MoOK variant that allows for combat tricks, however in this deck with land counts running on the low end of the spectrum (anywhere between 14-18 depending on the build), perhaps it's not the most reliable option.
Thoughts?
I thought the same when I saw that card. I'll definitely test that card in the MoOK-Slot - I find myself flooded WAY to often and with Scryb Ranger (and/or its Quirion cousin) it might even be useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus
Nevertheless I still think Krosa might be the better play most of the time.
Pretty sure that Groundswell is not what we're looking for. With such a low land count it's difficult to obtain real consistancy with the card unless you run Scryb or Quirion Ranger. Scryb Ranger doesn't have the power to manacost ratio necessary to be a really good maindeck card (you can board her again against Fish, there she's at her best). I haven't tested Quirion Ranger, but I'm guessing that Hierarch is better. So without those two engines, it's inconsistent. It's not much more impressive than Krosa at pumping on the kill turn, its only advantage being that if you have one more guy than they can block, you can Groundswell after blockers more effectively than Krosa. When you're not going on the kill for offense, just trying to force a trade with one of their guys, it's good. It's strictly worse than any other option on the defense. With that said, it's still interesting and should get tested, but I suspect that the inconsistency (or forcing you to play Rangers) will be an issue.
The other card that looks interesting right now is:
Basically just "Enchanted Creature is a Ledgewalker." I don't think it can make the cut, since unlike Ledgewalker there's an opening to target the creature in response and it's also not actually a beater or a pump spell. On the other hand, Ledgewalker is an absolutely sick creature in this deck and the opportunity to turn anything into one is appealing. If only it were an equipment.Quote:
Canopy Cover - 1G
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature can't be blocked except by creatures with flying and/or reach.
Enchanted creature can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control.
Auch!
Too bad Berserk Stompy didn't make the cut for "every single deck in Legacy"...
... So Many Insane Plays - Your Complete Guide to Legacy: The 50 Decks of Legacy by Stephen Menendian ...
;(
That's not better than Might of Old Krosa. It's even. MoOK depends on nothing to reach +4/+4 for the berserk (or not), but this can be used to get +4/+4 during combat in your turn. None gives +4/+4 on opponent's turn though. It's slightly better than MoOK against aggro decks that will often try to block your underlings with something. But against those same decks you may want to try to find an opportunity to go to the final blast, and in that case, you would need to hold a land in hand so that Groundwell gets similar to MoOK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus
Seems like it has an easy way around, but if you got Silhana and Grounds, one landin table and one in hand (and probably a 1cc creature played), you will be asking yourself "play Silhana or hold land" and then decide that the odds of drawing a land are better, and so you would play the second land like ~100% of the time you got Grounds. But not 100% of the time on that situation we will find the third land, making it subpar to MoOK. Maybe it will only happen in the 20% of the games, in which you will find only 1~2 lands, but that makes it subpar 1/5 of the time.
This would go extremely well in the Kavu build if only it didn't fail miserably at killing Chalice and Counterbalance, the two things it really needs to kill. Rather frustrating.Quote:
Nature's Claim - G
Instant
Destroy target artifact or enchantment, its controller gains four life.
Hmmpf. It's sad, but I like it that way. Less advertising means more surprise factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by CHaPuZaS
Perhaps we should discuss this list - http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=31912
This guy has a number of T8's on DeckCheck, probably the only player still doing well with an incarnation of this deck. I think people that play Stompy have a reluctance to splash. Not sure why, probably because of the cost of dual-lands. If we want to stay competitive though, we need to face facts: no-one has been consistently doing well with the mono-green version for a long time now.
I'd be keen to try this list if I had any Goyfs :(
If you got all the rest, you probably should get the goyfs... But you may try some other replacements for goyf... try Silhanas or River Boa, or even 1cc like nettle, jungle or other stuff... Well, none will be as great as goyf in this deck though, since it's designed to abuse the 4 goyfs maindeck.Quote:
Originally Posted by AcidFiend
This deck is in the mainpage already. Most of the players consider going 3C Berserk subpar to 3C Zoo, that's why it's not more popular... But yes, many people go splashs here.
What first come to my sight is that it's got 8 one-shot acceleration and 16 lands, which means 24 slots for mana. Although it looks like a lot, seems to be working for him...
Ah ok - hadn't seen much love for splashing thats all. 3C Zoo might > 3C Stompy, but what about 2C Stompy? There are some really sweet cards we can use by splashing white, and I think the splash red for Fling aint worth it. Just brainstorming here:
4 Hierarch
4 Loam Lion
3 Mother of Runes
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kavu Predator
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Might of Old Krosa
4 Invigorate
4 Berserk
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
5 Forest
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Plains
SB:
1 Mother of Runes
3 Krosan Grip
3 City of Solitude
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Troll Ascetic
When I have spare time I'm testing Dredge & Belcher configurations. Next up though I'll be testing something like this.
Also Bushi Tenderfoot/Kenzo could go in a G/W pump deck, ka-ching!
Edit: thx Umbowta for the manabase
You probably don't need 2 plains, maybe 1, or maybe the savanas are enough for the splash.
You could make use of Horizon Canopy, at least more than other versions.
I was to say that about Fling, I don't think it is reason enough to play red.There's a card in red that I like a lot and isn't in the list: Reckless Charge. Pump with flashback! Of course there is Nacatl, but I think the best splash is probably the white one too.
And by the way, there's a green +1/+2 pump with flashback named Thrill of the Hunt and I think it could be useful, since it can multiple save your creatures. Just an idea...
You're crazy, Gui_Brasi. 23 out of 43 spells in AcidFiend's list, that's more than half, require white in their casting cost. If anything it needs more Plains, not less. First turn Mom, Loam Lion, or StP dont happen without it. Not that I'm saying I like the list or not, but If it's run at all, the mana should be more like:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
5 Forest
3 Horizon Canopy
3 Plains
[edit]...and cut down to 60 cards for 4uck$ sake[/edit]
Sorry, you are right. My bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by umbowta
Just wondering, what has everyone's latest lists been looking like?
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Scryb Sprites
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Slippery Boggle
4 Kavu Predator
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Berserk
4 Rancor
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
3 Seal of Strength
2 Vines of Vastwood
15 Snow-Covered Forest
////
4 Seeds of Innocence
4 Vexing Shusher
2 Naturalize //// Wear Away
2 Reverent Silence
3 Ravenous Trap
YawG
I'm playing something like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesmilord
// Lands
15 [ZEN] Forest (1)
3 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
// Creatures
4 [EVE] Nettle Sentinel
4 [GP] Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 [EVE] Slippery Bogle
4 [GP] Silhana Ledgewalker
4 [PLC] Kavu Predator
3 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
// Spells
4 [UL] Rancor
4 [MM] Invigorate
4 [A] Berserk
3 [ZEN] Vines of Vastwood
4 [TSP] Might of Old Krosa
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [MI] Seeds of Innocence
SB: 3 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 3 [ON] Naturalize
SB: 3 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
I always modify something to test using this raw. The last sideboard slot is kind of open.
I'm sticking with the hybrid build I discussed earlier, but have modified it along the lines of U/W Tempo:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Serra Avenger
4 Watchwolf
3 Jotun Grunt
1 Troll Ascetic
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Might of Old Krosa
3 Rancor
4 Berserk
2 Double Cleave
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
3 Horizon Canopy
5 Plains
4 Forest
SB:
4 Gaddock Teeg
3 Glowrider
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Troll Ascetic
3 Krosan Grip
I've played about 30 test games online with this with some good results. I dropped Goyf, Predator & Invigorate. Some observations:
-The MVP's of this build are Jotun Grunt & Serra Avenger. These get me the most wins. No surprises here as they are staples in U/W.
-Double Cleave does enough to warrant its spot. I wouldn't play more than two, but they act as Berserk #5 & #6. Unblocked, its the same damage as a Berserk, and if the creature already has trample (Rancor), its the same blocked as well. Add to this it usually saves your creature instead of killing it. Berserk & DS are great together.
-Aether Vial can sit at 2 all day long, frees up your mana to play your pumps. Could probably go down to 3, as you only need one @ two.
-Mother of Runes is great. She'll either eat a removal straight away, or lets your guys get in for good damage.
I haven't tested the sideboard extensively yet. Glowrider is completely untested and possibly too slow.
For me this version is a lot of fun and I won't be going back to MonoGreen anytime soon. People might wonder why play this over the U/W Tempo deck it looks like. To them I say: Berserk, Pridemage, Krosan Grip, Teeg and fun :) Also I haven't had a chance to test Firewalker, but I'm guessing its decent against Goblins/Zoo/Burn.
Been wondering about running Jittes MD. I mean, a resolved and not destroyed Jitte against any aggro deck is good enough to give us a game, and Jitte counters opposing Jitte's, which are showing up more and more each time (probably because of the rising amount of aggro decks that work in the format, headed by zoo and slight)
Besides, we got like 4~8 of the best jitte carriers in the format, which is the troll shroud ones, and every other creature in the deck can use it... Only concern is being target to the artifact removals MD that is highly used: Pridemage.
Anyone tested it MD already, somehow?
Besides, instead of Jitte, I'm seriously considering using 2 naturalize, viridian zealot, or grip MD, giving extra SB space and a chance of winning against few darn things like jitte, chalice, cb+top, enchantress in the first game. I did it a few times already (using naturalizes MD), but I'm not sure if it would be as effective in the current lists.
Well, at least one thing I can say: The w splash is totally worth when it comes to pridemages. They are way better than Zealot at least...
There are essentially three aggro decks, Zoo, Goblins, and Merfolk. I don't see it being useful against Zoo, the whole matchup still revolves around, "Can we stick a shrouded guy?" and Jitte doesn't really change that. As you said, it also turns on their Pridemages, which is bad. Merfolk is a joke matchup. I could see it making Goblins a little easier, but I don't think beating Goblins is really a huge priority. The deck's bad matchups are still Stax, CB, and combo, Jitte doesn't fix any of that at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
Agreed that the deck needs this in some way or another, not auto-losing to an opening Chalice at 1 or Counterbalance is really nice.Quote:
Besides, instead of Jitte, I'm seriously considering using 2 naturalize, viridian zealot, or grip MD, giving extra SB space and a chance of winning against few darn things like jitte, chalice, cb+top, enchantress in the first game. I did it a few times already (using naturalizes MD), but I'm not sure if it would be as effective in the current lists.
Been messing with Zealots, I really like them, haven't tried Naturalize or Grip. The Kavu list has some trouble fitting them in (but it's still probably worth it), the Troll list does it easily, and the weird hybrid list I've been screwing with can fit them pretty easily as well.
Also, Naturalize is horrible compared to Gleeful Sabotage. Instant speed is nowhere near as good as being able to go through a Chalice @ 2, a Counterbalance, or take out like a Chalice @ 1 and a Ghostly Prison at the same time against Stax.
I really want to do a GW version with Isamaru, Jotun Grunt, Pridemage, StP (to make Predator consistently amazing), etc. Something like:Quote:
Well, at least one thing I can say: The w splash is totally worth when it comes to pridemages. They are way better than Zealot at least...
2 Isamaru
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Pit Skulk
3 Heirarch
4 Pridemage
4 Predator
4 Ledgewalker
1 Jotun Grunt
4 StP
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
2 Vines
7 Forest
4 Savannah
1 Plains
4 Windswept
SB:
4 Silence
3 Jotun Grunt
4 Gleeful Satotage
4 Forge Tender / Absolute Law
Probably still worse than the monogreen versions just due to manabase consistency, but damn does it ever look fun. I would love to nail a Goyf with StP while having a Predator out.
How many Zealots do you find appropriate?
I'm still running the original green version with Kavu and evasive dudes. The weakest link is probably Boggle or Nettle Sentinel. They're both good for different reasons, but I wouldn't mind going 3/3 with them instead of 4/4.
I too agree that problematic artifacts are pretty lame if we can't deal with them game 1.
*shrug* I'd say in general, more is better. Four might be excessive, but really I'd rather have to pay two mana for a mediocre 2/1 in my other matchups in order not to scoop to "Tomb, Chalice, go. For Kavu, the problem with cutting Boggle is that you just need Shroud to not lose to Zoo or other removal-heavy decks. You could probably do something like:
16 Forest
4 Nettle
4 Skyshroud
4 Skulk
4 Boggle
4 Ledgewalker
4 Predator
3 Zealot
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
3 Krosa/Growth
2 Vines
As we all know by now, you can pretty much screw with any of the numbers that you want and the fundamental deck doesn't change much. So yeah, this could go with a bit less Boggle/Nettle and a bit more Krosa/Growth and Vines.
I like this version a lot, that's probably something near what I would play... but I'll stick to monogreen exactly due to mana consistancy... I mean, our best matchup is the most played deck in the format, and in my meta, and mana issues would break it apart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Otter
Agree with gleeful sabotage's hability to go through chalice @2 and cb+top, although the most deadly chalice is @1 and if they got chalice @2 you are probably doom'd already (name a player that plays @2 before having @1 on table) , and it still can be counteded on the stack, but hell yeah, gonna try it instead krosan because of the extra techs and lower costs
Also thought about that @ Jitte, gonna let it aside for now...
About the number of Zealots, since it's a creature, and can take a creature spot, I think you can run as much as you think it's necesary for your meta. You could possibly run 4! I'd try to run only 2~3 though...
Edit: I'm running a list like Otter's advice, except with 4 krosa, and 2 gleeful, not zealot. (didn't see the post before oO )
Hi there everyone! First of all this is an awesome thread thanks to all of you guys, so keep it up !!!
Secondly, I need some advice, I am going to play Stompy at Madrid GP next Weekend, Monogreen Powahh!!!!!! And I'm going through the stress and problems of the last days.
I'm posting my built underneath, and I would love to hear any advice you might give me:
My Jungle Buddies
4- Slippery Boggle
4- Silhana Ledgewalker
4- Kavu Predator
and now the first problem
3-4? Skarrgan Pit-skulk
4? Skyshroud Elite or 2 Skyshroud and 2 Nettle sentinel taking in account I play in Spain, where many guys will be palying MonoC, specially first 3 rounds Also for fitting either 4 SE or 2 and 2 I would have to take 1 Skarrgan out
2- Scryb Sprites
2- Tarmo...yeah I'm not sure about him, and without him I could take Fetchlands out and Seal of Strength out, which is a Plus
Nature's Brute Force Spells
4- Berserk
4- Rancor
4- Invigorate
4- Might of old Krosa, too good for a 10 cent pumper ^^
4? Depending on Tarmo or not 4 Seal of Strength or 2 VinesOVW and 2 Giant Growth / 4 Vines / 4 Growths
17 lands, I like 16 better, it's sounds a lot better to my ears, but which fetchies it has to be 17
9 Sweet Forests
2 Fetchies of each colour, 8 total
I've read so far 10 pages form the 16 this thread has, I don't know if I'm missing something or if you've already gone over something similar, but thanks a lot for everything. Just one again, what could I trade for Tarmo??? I don't like the Troll, too expensive, so is there anything quite as nice. My choice is quite personal I really hate Stiffle to Fetchlands, and to Seals, I actually hate legacy blue a lot ^^
Sideboard
4- Tormod's I have chosen Tormods because I fear a lot more a Therapy to discard the Trap because 100% of Dredges have Therapy, than Pithing Needle going to Tormod's because not everyone will have that, and Therapy's flashback is a plus that Needle doesn't have in dredge, it's just personal choice, tell me if you think I'm wrong.
4- Rushwood Legate
4?- Seeds of Innocence taking in account I play in Spain, I know there will be quite a few enchantresses, and Reverent Works myracles on them, so I'm going back and forth with the copies of each cards I should have, and also Reverent hurts CounterBalance much more than Seeds, but yet again, Seeds hurt STAX a lot more.
4? Reverent Silence
1- Gaea's Blessing I don't want to get my beasts ridiculously milled having this card to add to my side
And that would be it, I haven't been able to include Fanatic, and I know how good they are I have them and love them, but I'm quite sure I'll be facing at least 1 enchantress this weekend.
Thx again for everything, I'm open to any complains and advice, just say anything you think thanks a lot.
By the way, judges say there will be tons of Goblins and Zoo in the GP so maybe I should think about them too, like 1 Dryad Arbor to fetch and block, or Jitte's in side. Thx to César for making a monogreen legacy famous!!!
Don't play Tarmo, he's horrible in this deck. One of our advantages is that in only playing Forests (which cannot end up in our graveyards unless Sinkholed), Creatures, and Insants (ignoring Rancor, since it rarely gets in the yard) is that opposing Tarmogoyfs are usually a bit small. This allows us to easily race them or beat them in combat with pump. By playing your own Goyfs and trying to make them large, you're also helping to grow opposing Goyfs. The 2-drops you should be playing in his slot are probably either Viridian Zealot or Thornweald Archer. The Archer is great in that it kills opposing Goyfs and Tombstalkers in combat on its own, but the Zealot is generally better. In a tournament with many rounds like a Grand Prix, you are going to run into Chalice decks and Counterbalance decks, both of which are very good against us. You'll be very happy if you have outs to them game one and the Zealots provide that.
Nettle Sentinel is better than Skyshroud Elite, especially if there is a lot of mono-color in Spain like you say. Nettle Sentinel's vigilance is very good against Goblins (attack and still block Lackey/Instigator) and Nettle is just overall a thousand times more consistent. The only times that Elite's third toughness matters is against Zoo, where it doesn't die to Lavamancer and can also hold off a Kird Ape. Most of the time though, anything that kills Nettle will kill Elite too. Bolt, Nacatl, Goyf, Mongoose, etc: they all do 3+ damage. Nettle also can surprise opponents who haven't played against this deck before. They swing a Goyf into your tapped Nettle, you Vines it into an untapped 6/6 and crush the Goyf. That wins games. Run a full set of Nettles before you run Elite.
As for Pit Skulk -- play four, no question. Its ability to punch through a large wall of Goblins, Merfolk, or Zombie tokens is very useful.
Agree with Tormod's over Trap.
I'm not a fan of Rushwood Legate, it's cool, but not particularly amazing. Sure it's nice to have a 2/1 for free, but not only does it get trashed by Fire/Ice against Tempo Thresh, but it also dies to a 2/3 Goyf or even an non-Threshed Mongoose. Vexing Shusher is much better, it punches through both Counterbalance and Chalice (the two scariest cards to face besides combo), while also letting you combo without worry of Force.
Might want to consider squeezing some Mindbreak Trap into the board, like -1 Seeds, -1 Silence, +2 Mindbreak. It's not a great card against combo and you'll still probably lose, but at a large tournament you are going to run into a bit of combo. Having at least a slight chance to lucksack into your traps both games to slow them down would be nice.
Everything otter says is true, will just add my $0.02
@Tarmogoyf, it's not that it's a bad card (actually it's probably one of the most overpowered cards in legacy right now) but in this deck, it's role is a bit different from threshold, reason for which you don't play 4 of it. It's supposed to be a big beater in a 4th~5th turn when your opponent is expecting small beaters with rancors, and then, stall their plan. Probably best goyf matchup is against Stax, where it is a 2cc creature that is easily 3/4 or 4/5, and can do the job paying 2 for ghostly prison, 1 for pendrell...
But either if you are facing a lot of staxes, or if you are facing a lot of enchantress, on both matchups you'd preffer to have Gleeful Sabotage or Viridian Zealot MD. I'd go 2 Gleeful MD instead of goyf, and cut ALL fetchlands. About the Blue that you hate, don't fear it, it's our best color-matchup by far! You will just crush them all day long! ;D
Nettle is really better than Elite due to it's untap skills. Pit-skulk is better than sprites, and i don't see myself playing monogreen version with less than 4x Nettle and 4x Skarrgan.
I don't like rushwood legate simply because blue is a good match even post-board. Side in gleeful/krosan to fight their anti-creature techs (EE, Keg, Shackles, Threads, Deed, etc...etc...etc...). I'd play something against Zoo in that spot. Maybe BotH, Troll, or even something wierd like Nourish. oO
Might of old Krosa is better than Growth in any version running 8 trollshroud, and you should play that. If there are remeaning spots for pumps, i'd go for Vastwood. But keep in mind that Seal's main priority isn't "pumping goyf +1/+1", but fixing your mana for a 2-land high damage Berserk. Vastwood and seal are opposing here: one demands mana, the other fixes it.
Hello community, long time reader bla bla ...
I'd like to share my results of the tournament I played yesterday in Mol, Belgium. I'm a vintage player and yesterday was my second Legacy tournament (Played merfolks in BoM3). Not knowing the field here in Belgium, I played with Berserk stompy. Great deck in an unknown meta and always a pleasure to play with.
First of all, the list:
16 Forest
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Kavu Predator
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Slippery Bogle
1 Vines of Vastwood
3 Seal of Strength
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap
SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Naturalize
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Vines of Vastwood
Like I said, I never really played competitive Legacy before, so the sideboard is kinda weird ... but was effective for me all day long :p
I never use Krosan grips during the day, and Nature's claim was the MVP, it won me few games. Maybe a 4th Claim and only 2 Krosan would have been better, dunno.
The MD is pretty straightforward, ESG was golden for me, I dodged so many Dazes and playing Kavu or Silhana on the first turn is awesome. I'll never come back to jungle Lion or Skyshroud Elite, seriously, I loved ESG.
A brief report:
We were 65 so we played 7 rounds of swiss + top 8. I finished at 12th place with 15 points (5 people at 15, 1 spot in top8).
Round 1, I played vs Reanimator. In the first game he played a turn 2 Exhume on a Sphinx of the steel wind. GG. I sided in 3 Ravenous Trap for Nettles. The second game was even faster. Despite my ravenous, he reanimated Iona turn 2, I scooped.
Round 2 vs Elves. He had so many mana, he played a 8-times kicked Jorada warcaller on game 1 and game 2 Elvish champion ruined me.
Since I was here for fun with friends, I decided not to drop and play the 7 rounds.
Round 3, duh! I get a BYE.
Round 4 - Merfolks. Game 1 was pretty simple for me. Turn 1 Silhana with double Rancor made the job for me. Game 2 I'm mana screwed and 2 Merrow Rejerey + Lord bashed me. Game 3: Turn 1 Kavu and double Invigorate+ Berserk ftw.
Round 5 - My Friend with Pro-Bant ...so sad.
Bogle turn 1+ Rancor+Mights, GG. Game 2 Silhana, Rancor, Berserk. 'nuff said.
Round 6 - Zoo. Silhana and Bogles stole me 2 games :) (Sided in VoV, not used ^^)
Round 7 - White painter. Game 1 a Kavu with Invigorate and Berserk did the job. Game 2 I'm mana screwed, 1 land in 20 draws, and my opponent's Oblivion ring and Runed halo totally wrecks me. Game 3 I have a nice hand (ESG, 2x Forest, Kavu, Invi, 2x Berserk). My opp. played StP on my Kavu. Luckily, I topdeck another Kavu ftw.
A few thoughts:
I definitely loved ESG in the deck, it dodges Dazes and allow insane turn 1 drops. Silhana, Kavu, 1cc drop + Seal of strength is pretty huge. I don't regret the Elites nor the Jungle Lions. Seal of Strength is far better than any other +3/+3 boost and VoV are not so good, for me it's just a good SB card vs Heavy removals.dec; I never played the kick. Bogles + Silhanas are enough, no need to play another Shroud effect MD.
The manabase is fine with 16 lands, no fetches ! Sooo many Stifles here. I usually play with 17 lands, but I really wanted 4 VoV for this tournament so I cut 1 forest for 1 MD Vines.
Also, almost every game 2 and 3 I sided out 3 Nettles to play 3 Nature's claim. (The ability to destroy Bitterblossoms, Jittes, Vials, ... is an upside for the deck. And since Nettle is the less valuable critter here, 2 MD is still fine). I really think that Nature's claim could be a great card MD.
Maybe the list could look like this:
16 Forest
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Kavu Predator
2 Nettle Sentinel
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Slippery Bogle
3 Nature's Claim
3 Seal of Strength
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
4 Invigorate
4 Might of Old Krosa
Any thoughts, commentary will be great.
Thanks.
Greg