[Deck] Spanish Inquisition (B/x Storm Combo)

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Originally Posted by DarthVicious

I can see where you're coming from, and that's the reason I don't run protection in my build, apart from a few key SB pieces of antihate. I'd rather force them to react to me, putting them on the defensive and forcing them to come up with answers. They usually can't find enough.

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The biggest mistakes I've made with this deck is not playing it agressively enough. I've lost several times trying to play around mindbreak trap or stifle, and I've learned it's just not worth it. Force them to mull for force of will, then force them to 2-1 themselves, giving you hopefully enough time to rebuild.

Also, I plan on testing reprocess, and I'm cutting it down to 1 Ill-gotten gains, 2 isn't necessary I've realized. And I don't like the mono black version, sure most of the time we generate more than enough storm, but many games I've won by the seat of my pants, barely getting that last required storm. Plus charbelcher is fantastic as a 1 of, so for me the risks outweigh the liabilities.

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Originally Posted by DarthVicious

I'll concede that drawing lotus bloom sucks when the opponent has you clocked, but I can't find anything better. If another ritual came out I'd run that instead. I'd put the blooms in the board then.

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Tallmen makes a clocked SI player with Lotus Bloom particularly dangerous. Given that you are playing Tallmen, Bloom are viable in your list, though I disagree much with 4 MD Tendrils. When you have access to so much red mana, there isn't much reason to opt out of BW, especially when you potentially have a Black Lotus on turn 4.

Also, a trick that an old Eggs storm deck used to play:
Reshape, sacrifice an artifact --> Lotus Bloom
When you play it in this way, Bloom comes directly into play.

Basically UU for XXX. Pretty sweet if you ask me. We could sacrifice spare Mox Opal, Tallmen, etc to make this play in QSI. Thats really the only place I can see Reshape being played, if its even good. I'm just brainstorming since we are on the topic of Lotus Bloom.

@ Marit
Throw me your SB so I can make a decent assessment of how to fill up those 2 slots in your MD.


@ Final Fortune
SI players play whatever build suits their play style. When it comes down to it, SI's niche is speed, and consistency at speed.

SI would like a resilient manabase, surely, avoiding Wasteland and such, but you forget, the deck doesn't need much to go off again. If your opponent Wastes your only land, whose to say you can't go off again in a few turns? I agree that having swamps allows you to sit back behind the tallmen and accumulate some cards, but this isn't always the case. Often your opponent will just use what are usually blank removal spells to take out your creatures, leaving you creatureless when you need one for Culling the Weak, and exposing you to the opponent's clock. Also, keep in mind that Goyf is usually huge against us. You can't sit behind that creature wall when you are facing down a Goyf that is far bigger than all your dudes. Thats partly why I switched to PSI. PSI bypasses that situation entirely, opting instead for increased Speed, Daze protection, Pact + LED tricks, etc. Also the deck is literally more compact because now the tallmen also function as mana sources.

If you post some results with this list, then we will have something to discuss.

@The Spanish Tunnel King
Good Tunneling!
It looks like Tallmen would have been better than Kobolds, given that you have to block Lackey and then lose the Kobold. If you had Tallmen, you slow Goblins clock until they have a removal spell for a Tallman.
The games that you fizzed (seems like quite a few) might have been remedied by the PSI list with lines of play like Pact + LED into biz.
That CB matchup looks tough. Given that its your hardest matchup and you could actually start the D4 chain in every game, I'd say thats pretty dam good.
Against Rock, I wouldn't count on mini-ToA + Bob being a kill. You should wait until the opponent plays Bob to go off. Once he has it online he will surely over power you with discard and then you can't go for the kill.

@entity
Cruel Bargains are definitely hard to find. Good luck. :P


@all
On the topic of Reprocess, it will only work well in builds with Tallmen because then you have more things to sacrifice.

On the topic of Mox Opal, is it that much better than SSG or ESG? Both Spirit Guides can be played as Daze protection and as mana sources to facilitate your post-board plans of EtW or Carpet/Swarm.

Just had to say this: I love the attention that the deck's getting.

It would take a long time before I can sleeve this deck up in real life, but I would say that it's really worth it.

I've tested the lists with Mox Opal, and I've been very unimpressed, especially compared to Pact SI. As of the moment, I don't see the merits of SI with tallmen over Pact SI.

My next wish (after Wizard and Zombie Spirit Guides): I hope they print a green creature that functions as a "bomb" in this deck, e.g. a green Slithermuse. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

. As of the moment, I don't see the merits of SI with tallmen over Pact SI.

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Pact SI has inherent demerits, Land Grant gives your opponent an informational advantage and gives you an extreme vulnerability to disruption in exchange for turning Artifact Creatures into Elvish Spirit Guides. Yes, you become more resistant to Daze, but you turn disruption (ala Spellsnare or Thoughtseize) into Strip Mines and you lose your first land drop in exchange for Dryad Arbor and your second land drop (2xBayou) for Goblin Charbelcher as an alternate win condition.

@Vacrix,

I agree Shield Sphere and Phyrexian Walker aren't answers to Tarmogoyf, but they are tempo generators vs. Merfolk and Swamps are both A) prevent the first Swamp from being Wastelanded and B) increase the likelyhood you'll have 2, if not 3 lands in play. Obviously, no one's to say the Swamp guarantees victory, but not being disrupted is obviously better than being disrupted and increases our probability of winning.

They're obvious advantages to Kobolds and imprinting Red mana, however they're advantages to Shield Sphere 3xTime Walking Tarmogoyf as well. I'll concede Phyrexian Walker is awful vs. non-Goblin decks, Memnite may be far superior for it's ability to attack and reduce the Storm count by 1 via. Force of Will or Fetchlands.

I disagree 4xTendrils of Agony are "sub-optimal" tho', if you consider the mana floating after Draw 4 chains B into Culling the Weak for BBBB into a Tendrils of Agony is good game where Burning Wish is game over. The multi-color versions are, at times, inconsistent by nature.

@Thread

Mox Opal is garbage FWIW, even with Vault of Secrets.

I test against two blue decks on a regular basis: Aeon Bridge w/Force, Daze, and discard, and Bant NO Pro CounterTop. My opponent in those games has played hundreds of games against my deck, and he's still afraid of it. I believe in my list 100%, and I'm the only one that has to. The only way I would change the main is if another black ritual is printed in scars block.

I am on the same side as marit when it comes to the opals, they're freakishly nasty. Spirit guides can't pay for rituals on their own. Neither can Opal, but there's a hell of a lot more artifacts in this deck than there are mana fixing, even in a pact list. To each his own I guess.

Although, a green slithermuse would be ridiculous...

New list:

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4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp-> protection from wasteland
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Chrome mox

4 Lion's eye diamond
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Dark ritual
4 Culling the weak
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
1 Wild Cantor
1 Eternal Witness

4 Pact
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Duress
2 Sensei's diving top -> LED trix, pact trix, must counter
3 Infernal Tutor
2 Tendrils
1 IGG

SB
4 Carpet of Flowers
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Drop of honey -> against goblins etc... and hatebears, can kill Iona
3 Nature's Claim
1 Scavenger Folk
1 Disfigure-> for canonist and other hatebears, better than Deathmark

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Zoo
- 4 Duress
- 1 Cantor
+ 1 Folk
+ 3 DoH
+ 1 Disfigure
Stax
- IGG
- 3 Duress
+ Folk
+ 3 Claim
U-deck
- 1 Duress
- Cantor
- IGG
+3 Xantid Swarm

Less than 4 Chrome Mox is wrong. There will be no discussion on this.

I don't get why everyone is hating on Mox Opal. Yes, it's not so great in the pact builds, but in the tall-men builds it's incredible. It's a permanent, non waste-able mana source that taps for B, U, and R. What's not to like?

And @ PSI v LGSI, I don't think this debate will ever be resolved. I have tested both extensively, and I like LGSI with Mox opals better, it runs smoother for me and feels significantly less clunky. Other people have reached the exact opposite conclusion I have, it's just personal preference.

Edit: Does anyone have the most recent PSI version? I might have the wrong version, because mine runs only 13 initial black mana sources, which is one less than the old old LGSI ran, which makes sense why it's been so inconsistent. But it seems to me like all the PSI lists sacrifice initial black mana sources for summoner's pact, which does not fetch black.

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Originally Posted by emidln

less than 4 chrome mox is wrong. There will be no discussion on this.

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lol

Wait, did I see a sideboard plan of Drop of Honey vs Goblins? I stopped reading the first time after Chrome Mox, but wtf are you smoking? If you think siding in Drop of Honey vs Goblins is a good idea you need to stop and reconsider what this deck does.

Drop of Honey? Vs. Gobbos? I'm sorry but that is just wrong. Why do we need help in that MU again? The MOST you need is duress for mindbreak trap. That is the limit. And less than 4 chrome mox is so wrong on multiple levels it isn't even funny emidln is right you will run 4 chrome moxen. No questions asked. Cut a bloody sensei's top for another chrome mox. And sensei's top in SI? What is wrong with this picture? We try to win ASAP not after we top a couple of turns to sculpt a hand for that we have TES and DDFT. Even TES doesn't play top though because apparently it's dissynergystic with gemstone mine. And LED tricks with top are only useful in doomsday piles IMO or if a TES player ponders, see's an AdN, then brainstorms cracking the LED in response to pay for the AN. This doesn't happen that often though.

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Originally Posted by marit

And @ PSI v LGSI, I don't think this debate will ever be resolved. I have tested both extensively, and I like LGSI with Mox opals better, it runs smoother for me and feels significantly less clunky. Other people have reached the exact opposite conclusion I have, it's just personal preference.

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Well, for discussion's sake, I prefer Pact SI because no other version (I think) pushes the Turn 1 win ballot as hard as this. Also, the deck has a very good SB plan against blue, almost like it's tailor-made to beat blue decks post-SB.

I don't like other SI versions because I want to go all-in consistently eary - Turns 1-2. I get frustrated when I push other versions that early only to fizzle.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

@The Spanish Tunnel King
Good Tunneling!
It looks like Tallmen would have been better than Kobolds, given that you have to block Lackey and then lose the Kobold. If you had Tallmen, you slow Goblins clock until they have a removal spell for a Tallman.
The games that you fizzed (seems like quite a few) might have been remedied by the PSI list with lines of play like Pact + LED into biz.
That CB matchup looks tough. Given that its your hardest matchup and you could actually start the D4 chain in every game, I'd say thats pretty dam good.
Against Rock, I wouldn't count on mini-ToA + Bob being a kill. You should wait until the opponent plays Bob to go off. Once he has it online he will surely over power you with discard and then you can't go for the kill.

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Akkk. I wrote a really big reply to this but lost it somewhere/somehow in the ether. Here is the really short version because i'm tired, with some more questions :) -

Thanks everyone!

Kobalds on the day killed me once (plague shut me down), imprinted for win once. I don't know.....

Semi-fizzle= draw4 turn 1 need to untap/topdeck something to continue. Is this bad? I did it quite a lot on the day, and the deck kept feeding me the goods :). Or should I wait for more resources or mulligan harder?

vs CB. I sided in just swarms on the play and kept the maindeck on the draw, trying just to get underneath the CB, not worrying about force too much. Is this a good plan, trying to maintain the speed? Or is the 'full blue board' still good against CB? Once that thing lands, its pretty hairy...

Random thing (and this one is really important to me) - I miscounted my mana in one game (SORRY JIM!!!!) so I thought I had won and he scooped when I explained it after a LG so he could see my hand. Nooby question, but whats the best way of keeping track of mana/storm people have found? Over the course of a tourney it can get tiring just counting to 10 for tendrils, let alone piloting the deck ;). I used dice for mana and beads for storm, but got this pretty simple thing confused (only once, I hope....) even. Or is it just a matter of practice, practice practice? Slighty off topic I know, but handy if anyone has got any hints :).

Thats it for tonight folks.

The Spanish Tunnel King

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

Well, for discussion's sake, I prefer Pact SI because no other version (I think) pushes the Turn 1 win ballot as hard as this. Also, the deck has a very good SB plan against blue, almost like it's tailor-made to beat blue decks post-SB.

I don't like other SI versions because I want to go all-in consistently eary - Turns 1-2. I get frustrated when I push other versions that early only to fizzle.

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I generally don't have a problem pushing the envelope with my list of LGSI, I have a 50-60% turn 1 kill rate with my list, turn 2 it's probably about 70+%. Anyone who says they can reach 70% turn 1 with a pact list is either really lucky, has some crazy tech I'm not aware of, or mistaken. with 13 initial Black mana sources, you are forced to mulligan a lot. This alone in my testing of PSI makes me not want to take it to a tournament. And the deck is more resiliant to daze, but more vulnerable to FoW. Often times pact is used to search either an ESG for G, or a creature for culling, then then you are playing a bargain off of it. If the bargain eats a FoW (some people have told me that the Draw4 never gets FoW'd, but that is just silly, anything that says +3 card advantage is not going to resolve if they can help it), then you are dead in the water. Losing Empty also hurts, it helps the blue matchup a lot. I don't feel it having the extra speed that everyone claims it does, pretty much every SI variant I've tested (save QSI and SITES) is the same speed, with a little variation that's barely noticeable.

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Originally Posted by The Spanish Tunnel King

Semi-fizzle= draw4 turn 1 need to untap/topdeck something to continue. Is this bad? I did it quite a lot on the day, and the deck kept feeding me the goods :). Or should I wait for more resources or mulligan harder?

vs CB. I sided in just swarms on the play and kept the maindeck on the draw, trying just to get underneath the CB, not worrying about force too much. Is this a good plan, trying to maintain the speed? Or is the 'full blue board' still good against CB? Once that thing lands, its pretty hairy...

Random thing (and this one is really important to me) - I miscounted my mana in one game (SORRY JIM!!!!) so I thought I had won and he scooped when I explained it after a LG so he could see my hand. Nooby question, but whats the best way of keeping track of mana/storm people have found? Over the course of a tourney it can get tiring just counting to 10 for tendrils, let alone piloting the deck ;). I used dice for mana and beads for storm, but got this pretty simple thing confused (only once, I hope....) even. Or is it just a matter of practice, practice practice? Slighty off topic I know, but handy if anyone has got any hints :).

Thats it for tonight folks.

The Spanish Tunnel King

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When you talked about semi-fizzling, did you mean you kept a hand of 7 that couldn't do anything turn 1, or you kept a hand that could draw4 turn 1, then drew into not enough to win? Because if it's the former, depending on what I'm facing I would mulligan unless it's got a lot of tallmen and I know I'm facing Zoo, or a slower deck without disruption (aggro loam, lands). And I prefer the 15 card SB plan for counterbalance, it's still not favorable by any means, but tomb of urami and tombstalker get right around balance, and chances are they sided out their removal. For storm and mana, I just write it down on a sheet of paper. This also helps if you want to right a tournament report later, or just recall the little details. Congrats on the finish! And I hope this helped some.

I usually just say the storm count and mana I have floating after each spell I cast. Later on when it gets tougher to keep track I start writing it all down. Goldfishing helps.

I use dice to keep track of storm; mana I find to be easy to keep track of in my head. And PSI does push the envelope very well with its turn 1 win% IMHO. Nothing really compares to the turn 1 kill rate of PSI. I was very fine when I took PSI to a tournament a while ago facing all the blue decks in the room and going 3-1. I only fizzled once and that was turn 1 game 1 against a random homebrew because I used summoner's pact and fizzled and you get the picture. The only other time I lost was against a blue deck round 4 which packed pyrostatic pillar out of the board <-- the best tech against SI, I resolved a draw 4 and couldn't get enough mana to play and activate belcher and even if I could have played belcher he had the stifle for it...oh well.

Turn 2 kill rates with this deck are so high it's not even funny. If I'm on the draw and I try to combo off turn 2 I rarely fizzle unless I kept a risky hand that I should not have kept. Getting just 2 draw phases to draw more cards is insane with this deck lol.

As for people not countering D4's. I've had people counter my D4's because it is CA and it will likely overwhelm the opponent if we resolve a D4 assuming the D4 doesn't turn up crap. D4's are our ad nauseam's essentially so it's right to counter them most of the time depending on the hand. But that's just the point; what the optimal choice is against us always depends on our hand sometimes it's the IMS sometimes the dark rit or sometimes the D4.

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Originally Posted by marit

When you talked about semi-fizzling, did you mean you kept a hand of 7 that couldn't do anything turn 1, or you kept a hand that could draw4 turn 1, then drew into not enough to win? Because if it's the former, depending on what I'm facing I would mulligan unless it's got a lot of tallmen and I know I'm facing Zoo, or a slower deck without disruption (aggro loam, lands). And I prefer the 15 card SB plan for counterbalance, it's still not favorable by any means, but tomb of urami and tombstalker get right around balance, and chances are they sided out their removal. For storm and mana, I just write it down on a sheet of paper. This also helps if you want to right a tournament report later, or just recall the little details. Congrats on the finish! And I hope this helped some.

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Yeah, I would count a 'semi-fizzle' as...... Say you mull to 6 and keep a hand of..... Land grant, dark ritual, draw4, tallman (or shortman - kobald FTW! :)), bayou, chrome mox. And your playing against aggro game 1. So.... you go T1 bayou, ritual, draw4. Then you get something random like draw4 x2, kobald, infernal tutor. Now you hand looks like: Land grant, draw4 x2, kobaldx2, infernal tutor, chrome mox. There are now so many 'outs' that you can draw to start up again. practically anything but kobalds.... So you missed turn 1, but I wouldn't say you've 'fizzled'. Your deck is still pretty 'live'. Maybe against aggro its better to wait because you can soak up some damage before going off, but esp if you're against CB, I think its worth a 'probe'. Sooooo many counterspells come on-line when they drop a land, so try and bury them in card advantage before it gets too late? And you might always just flop into something ridiculous...

And to be honest, I forgot about the tomb... I always thought it kind of under performed, but maybe its worth looking at again. Maybe I just didn't board it in against the right decks. Against CB and fish right? But fish may well bring in echoing truth fearing the warrens (even if you don't run them. They're pretty popular in storm decks these days.... ;)) which would hit him pretty hard. Plus stifle... If I went back to tombs on the board, and maybe just 2 EtW (or maybe even find some space for reverent silence - people really are playing the leyline over here, good or not :)).

Thanks for the feedback as ever!

The Spanish Tunnel King

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Originally Posted by The Spanish Tunnel King

Yeah, I would count a 'semi-fizzle' as...... Say you mull to 6 and keep a hand of..... Land grant, dark ritual, draw4, tallman (or shortman - kobald FTW! :)), bayou, chrome mox. And your playing against aggro game 1. So.... you go T1 bayou, ritual, draw4. Then you get something random like draw4 x2, kobald, infernal tutor. Now you hand looks like: Land grant, draw4 x2, kobaldx2, infernal tutor, chrome mox. There are now so many 'outs' that you can draw to start up again. practically anything but kobalds.... So you missed turn 1, but I wouldn't say you've 'fizzled'. Your deck is still pretty 'live'. Maybe against aggro its better to wait because you can soak up some damage before going off, but esp if you're against CB, I think its worth a 'probe'. Sooooo many counterspells come on-line when they drop a land, so try and bury them in card advantage before it gets too late? And you might always just flop into something ridiculous...

And to be honest, I forgot about the tomb... I always thought it kind of under performed, but maybe its worth looking at again. Maybe I just didn't board it in against the right decks. Against CB and fish right? But fish may well bring in echoing truth fearing the warrens (even if you don't run them. They're pretty popular in storm decks these days.... ;)) which would hit him pretty hard. Plus stifle... If I went back to tombs on the board, and maybe just 2 EtW (or maybe even find some space for reverent silence - people really are playing the leyline over here, good or not :)).

Thanks for the feedback as ever!

The Spanish Tunnel King

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I never wait to cast a draw 4, unless it's some super special circumstance. I don't think it's worth waiting and absorbing damage, because that just limits your next draw4's, and gives them mana to burn you out/time to draw counters.

Over the past few days I've been doing extensive goldfishing with the pact list (and by extensive I mean I've goldfished somewhere around 400 games). What I've noticed is that because of summoner's pact, a well timed force spells gg, not even giving time to recover. But on the flip side, it is noticeably faster thanthe mox version I was playing before. I have no problem pushing the deck to win when I need to, as in cracking LED in response to a draw4, or another business spell. I find though, that I'm using belcher to win a lot more than I did with the mox version, which could be good or bad depending how you look at it. Next tourney I go to I'm gonna play the pact version instead, and see how it feels/works.

So they announced the new banned and unbanned for legacy on December 20th 2010. Time spiral is unbanned. What will that mean for the SI deck?

Nothing at first. It's useless for SI itself and far too clunky as the centrepiece of anything that attempts to rival SI's speed. True bombs in combo are slow.
If anything, the banning of Survival is going to be more influential since that'll have a more immediate effect on what decks will be played.

I've been testing with this. Since there's blecher in my metagame, I'm trying to see if I can race it. Goldfishing with the list in the OP (the last one with supposedly 65% T1 kill) shows that it keeps fizzling (storm not large enough, or draw into nothing with the BBB, draw 4 cards card). Is there something I'm missing here?

Belcher usually kills via EtW; if they shit out a bunch of goblins turn 1, you should win. Let's say they do and you keep a 7 card hand. They swing and put you to 10 or less life. You go off on turn 2 after drawing multiple cards quite easily in my experiences with the deck it is very hard to fizzle after going to 8 cards, lets say you land grant for the forest dryad, play it, pass the turn. You don't block with it, they put you at 10 or less life as I said. Do NOT cast a turn 1 cruel bargain/infernal contract unless you're on the play and don't know what they're playing. Playing a D4 on the draw then fizzling = GG's because they swing for lethal next turn if they have 12 or more goblins even if you have dryad arbor. But the PSI list is very hard to play Apple as is SI in general. You should goldfish the list over a hundred times just to figure out what to keep what not to keep the interactions of the deck and how to achieve ten storm before casting tendrils.

On time spiral in SI. Maybe in the draw 7 version of SI it could have a place or QSI but overall I'm not too sure. It's a lot more broken in spring tide though I was just goldfishing a list with 4 time spiral's and it was insane there. Not really sure about it in SI though. The metashift is what will likely affect SI more and whether or not you should take it to a tourney depending on what the metagame looks like in 2 months.

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Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

On time spiral in SI. Maybe in the draw 7 version of SI it could have a place or QSI but overall I'm not too sure. It's a lot more broken in spring tide though I was just goldfishing a list with 4 time spiral's and it was insane there. Not really sure about it in SI though. The metashift is what will likely affect SI more and whether or not you should take it to a tourney depending on what the metagame looks like in 2 months.

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Slithermuse will always be better in SI, it also draws 7 but then just for us. Also the untap effect is irrelevant. double U isnt easy aswell.

Btw I have been goldfishing and playing this deck alot online, and I have a couple of questions.
I have never used Eternal witness yet, and it kinda sucked every time I had it in my hand. I always wished it was something else, what are your experiences with the card?

I also cut odious trow in favor of Wild cantor, which has been working well for me so far.

And about the sideboard:
Xantid swarm and Carpet have been working well (eventhough if you have them both in play its kinda stupid, because you have to choose between using the mana from carpet or having the protection from swarm)
I could emagine using Thoughtseize and natures claim instead of duress and deathmark. Imo it just gives more outs.

What about Inquisition of kozilek vs thoughtseize? Inquisition takes everything just like seize, doesnt lose life. The major point is that it cant take FoW or Mindbreaktrap, but I guess I would have to test it out if thats big enough to switch to seize (I think it is.)

Also I cut 1 Infernal tutor from the decklist in the OP for IGG, which has been awesome so far in my testing.

Thoughts :)?

~Maarten

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Originally Posted by 1maarten1

Slithermuse will always be better in SI, it also draws 7 but then just for us. Also the untap effect is irrelevant. double U isnt easy as well.


Thoughts :)?

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Seconded. Unbanning TS was fairly irrelevent to this list in it's use. I bet UR Landstill could use it effectively as a one-of. Also all mono-U lists will probably try to use this with Personal Tutors since the banning of Mystical. It's a solid use as well as a burning wish target, but not a good card here in tendrils/EtW/Belcher area of combo.

Just my thoughts.

--ABC

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Originally Posted by 1maarten1

And about the sideboard:
Xantid swarm and Carpet have been working well (eventhough if you have them both in play its kinda stupid, because you have to choose between using the mana from carpet or having the protection from swarm)

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You're in for a treat, man.

Carpet of Flowers has errata.

At the beginning of each of your main phases, if you haven't added mana to your mana pool with this ability this turn, you may add up to X mana of any one color to your mana pool, where X is the number of Islands target opponent controls.

Therefore, you may play Carpet of Flowers/Have it in play during your first main phase, go to combat (perhaps attack with a Swarm or two), then activate the ability of Carpet of Flowers in your second main phase.

I've had this deck built for the past four months, and I'm going to Japan for a extended stay in a few weeks, so today was my last chance to get a tourney in before I have to get lost trying to find a cardstore that has Legacy tournaments in Japan. I chose to play PSI.

1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
1 Odious Trow
4 Land Grant
2 Manamorphose
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Infernal Contract
4 Cruel Bargain
1 Eternal Witness
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Slithermuse
2 Goblin Charbelcher
3 Tendrils of Agony

SB
2 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Tomb of Urami
3 Duress
4 Carpet of Flowers
4 Xantid Swarm

So I went 1-3, but I could have won every match I lost if I knew what I was doing.

Round 1-I Lost to Grizzly Bears. I played against an opponent who hadn't played Magic in four years. I saw Gruul Turf, Elvish Archers, Grizzly Bears, Balduvian Bears, Giant Growth, and Colossal Might. Game one, I lost because I didn't mini-Tendrils even though I put my opponent on Green Aggro with Pump Spells and I was at four when he had two guys in play. He hadn't played a pump spell yet, and I was hoping to get one more card before I had to pull the trigger. Game two, I played too conservatively. I was killed by a Grizzly Bears with Untamed Might because I didn't use my LEDs when I played a D4. I drew two more D4 with no mana to cast them, and I undoubtedly would've been able to kill him on turn one if I had been more aggressive.

0-1.

Round 2-I played some acquaintance of my first round opponent. He was playing MUC complete with Morphling, Disk, and like 23 counterspells. Game one he doesn't keep a hand with Force of Will, and I kill with Charbelcher on turn two before his counterspells go online. In goes the sideboard! Game two, he plays Chalice for zero on his first turn. I look at my hand, and on my turn I exile ESG, cast Carpet of Flowers, go to my postcombat main phase, add G from Carpet, cast Xantid Swarm. His entire deck is invalid.

1-1.

Round 3-I play a man sporting TES. He's an avid Storm player, saw me goldfishing during the tournament, and knew more about my deck than I did. It was a good experience; we spent most of the round shuffling and chatting because our games took 5 minutes each. I win the die roll and put him to 6 on turn one. His City of Brasses put him down to three, and I plan to beat down with an ESG and a Dryad Arbor. Turns out I didn't evaluate my hand well enough. I had the ability to Tendrils him for 6 on the turn I cast the ESG and put the Arbor into play, but this was provided that I *noticed* (I had a brain fart and thought Tendrils would only make him lose 2 life even though I had LED and a Lotus Petal in hand) and that I had enough experience to play around Silence/Orim's Chant--Had I gone for the Tendrils, he would've Chanted me based on the order I normally play my spells. Anyway, he goes down to one and goes off. Game two I Tendrils him down to two life on turn one. His opening play was going to be Rit, Rit, Ad Nauseam off of City of Brass. That plan's out of the window, so we play Draw-Go until I cast Infernal Tutor. He chants me to go to one life, and I go search for Odious Trow, so he loses. Game three, I believe I mulliganed into oblivion.

1-2.

Round 4-I play against some sort of UW deck with Standstill and Counterbalance. Game one I would have turn two killed him with Charbelcher if he didn't play Counterspell. I prayed that he was going to cast Daze because I had an ESG in hand, but it didn't happen that way. The next turn he resolved Counterbalance and I didn't want to show him my ESG so I conceded before I died to Pact. Game two, he doesn't understand that Carpet of Flowers is going to just destroy him. I use Carpet Mana and Infernal Tutor to search my deck for all four Charbelchers. The third one resolves, and he concedes. Game three is the best match I play all day. It's a lot of back and forth stuff. He lets my Carpet and Land Grant both resolve on my first turn. I eventually create an Urami Token. The next turn, I play Duress and see Standstill, Force of Will, Force of Will, Trinket Mage. I take Standstill...because I'm an idiot. I draw my second Duress shortly afterward and take a Force of Will. He plays Trinket Mage--I expect him to get Engineered Explosives to deal with my token, because he's got Tundra, Underground Sea, and Volcanic Island in play and I haven't seen him play a single Black or Red spell, but he gets Sensei's Divining Top (He told me after the match that he didn't play EE). I want to keep my life total up for D4's, so I also cast an ESG to stop Trinket Mage from getting at me. Along the way I tried to tutor for Charbelcher to kill his Trinket Mage so I could attack with ESG too, but it got FoW'd. This was a mistake because he had Top in play and I knew the one card in his hand--he put Top on the top of his deck and all my cards just went poof. I get him down to three before he finds a Cunning Wish (his only out) for the Swords to Plowshares that he had sideboarded out. After that, we're playing Draw-Go. He eventually played Canonist, attacked me a bit, and his ending board position was the Mage and two Canonists. I was at eight life with the ESG to block. I lose because my final turn is Cruel Bargain down to four life, draw a Charbelcher, and have no initial mana to activate it on his turn.

1-3.

All in all, It went better than I would've expected. I was nervous going in, because this was basically my first Legacy Tournament, and my first time actually playing the deck against other people. My wins were more a product of my ability to trip dick-first into them than any sort of skill on my part; I wasn't confident enough to play my way out of the situations I faced tonight. I had taken a friend with me, and after being critical of the deck for the longest time, he was impressed with the deck when he saw it in action--as I previously mentioned, every loss was literally winnable for me if I just knew what I was doing. Playing Shield Sphere and Phyrexian Walker would've saved my ass a few times, too.

The biggest question I have is if Thoughtseize would've been better in the board. If I had taken Trinket Mage in the last game, my opponent would not have been able to deal with Urami or found the creatures to kill me (He *should've* had EE but didn't; Sensei's Divining Top put him back in the game from one Force of Will in hand; Trinket Mage dealt the last two damage to me). I only side cards in against blue, and other than Merfolk (which may be the reason to keep Duress instead), Blue typically doesn't have a clock. With this in mind, 18->9->4->2->1 is the same as 20->10->5->2->1 when it comes to D4 cards.

Thoughtseize is definitely better than duress in the board, it improves merfolk (lessens their clock), gets random creatures (your trinket mage scenario) and most importantly, can pick off hate bears (meddling mage, gaddock teeg).

So far, my experiences tell me that Thoughtseize is better, and Thoughtseize is objectively better when you put it next to Duress. However, I haven't played enough post-board games to discern for myself whether or not the life loss is relevant in *this* deck, where you will be spending a lot of life to progress your game plan. Thoughtseize in Multiples would've been pretty bad, and any time I side in Thoughtseize (so far), I also side in Tomb of Urami, which also bleeds you a bit.

On that note, would it be a good idea to side in Thoughtseize against decks with hate bears and lock pieces? Against decks with Trinisphere, Gaddock Teeg and co., I might just be SOL if they hit play; at this point, I'm not pushing a lot of T1 kills. If I were to side in my three discard spells, what would I take out?

You usually shouldn't be boarding at all against non-blue. Just race the hate. If you're expecting to see a lot of permanent hate, there's always Burning Wish. Lists without Burning Wish usually bring in 15 cards against blue and don't use their board at all against other decks. I once had a list that sided one card against aggro (I think one maindeck Empty The Warrens for one Ill-Gotten Gains or something) but apart from that, I never used my sideboard against non-blue. Just practice until you pull enough turn one and two kills.

Depending on the hate you expect (0 mana vs discard vs 2 mana hate) you board against non-blue. You'll want Chain of Vapor/Nature's Claim against Chalices from some decks and discard vs Mindbreak Trap for others. Against decks that only have hate bears and thorns, you can safely ignore them.

The only protection I'd bring against decks packing these things (mainly Mindbreak Trap and Chalice Of The Void) is Duress. If you cast Thoughtseize before your draw four it doesn't matter, but Thoughtseize becomes way worse after you actually did something.

Yesterday I played PSI in a huge german tournament with ~190 people and hell, I never had so much fun! Even though I only went 5-3 I was quite satisfied with my deck, which has only let me down in one game (27 mana but no business). The list was quite standard, with 3 IT, 3 Chrome Mox, 2 ToA, 1 IGG and 2 Belcher main.
The sideboard was
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Belcher
2 Deathmark
2 Nature's Claim
2 Reverent Silence (bad choice!)
Today I changed the both Reverent Silence for a 3/3 Split of Deathmark and Nature's Claim. Nature's Claim was an MVP all day long since I expected most of my opponents to board in Canonist or Chalices. There were 2 situations where I also claimed my own Chrome Moxes for an additional life to get the spell chain going on.
My matchups were
Tempo Bant 1-2
Elves! 2-0
MadnessSurvival 1-2
White Wheenie 2-0
Junk 1-2 (Chalice@0 both games post-board)
Mosswort Bridge/S&T 2-1
Legacy Jund 2-1
Reanimator 2-0

Overall I think SI was the absolutely right choice as I expected a lot of Survival and therefore a lot of combo decks to beat survival. That´s why I chose a deck which just is faster than the normal combo decks out there. Even though I was never paired against that I am sure it was a good meta choice and as I posted above, I never ever had so much fun while playing it. Even most of my opponents had a good time as there were several manamanamanadraw4manamanadraw4go moments. :)

And, as usual, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DerFern

Yesterday I played PSI in a huge german tournament with ~190 people and hell, I never had so much fun! Even though I only went 5-3 I was quite satisfied with my deck, which has only let me down in one game (27 mana but no business). The list was quite standard, with 3 IT, 3 Chrome Mox, 2 ToA, 1 IGG and 2 Belcher main.
The sideboard was
4 Xantid Swarm
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Belcher
2 Deathmark
2 Nature's Claim
2 Reverent Silence (bad choice!)

---

Nice to hear you had so much fun, just out of curiosity, do you have the complete decklist? And only 3 Chrome mox and 2 Belcher main? I wouldnt call that standard. I don't think Reverent Silence is a bad choice, but it's of better use as a 1 off in a Burning Wish sideboard as an answer to Counterbalance/SotF. Deathmark is great against hatebears, but why not mix in some Thoughtseize, they are also usefull against control. 3 deathmarks and nature's claim seem a bit over the top to me. But Im playing burning wish so thats a different story altogether.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nonkel

do you have the complete decklist?

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4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
3 Infernal Tutor
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Culling the Weak
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Manamorphose
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Land Grant
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Eternal Witness
1 Odious Trow
1 Slithermuse
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Bayou

I tried Thoughtseize before and was disappointed everytime I got them. Against blue-based decks, Xantid Swarm is enough for me. SI just has so much business that they will never have enough counters to get rid of all of our important spells.

What do you guys think of this Pact list? I need to add 3 more cards and I'm note sure what to add yet. The 3 spots are from cutting 1x Eternal Witness and 2x Manamorphose, both of which I absolutely hated in testing. It came up several times that I needed Bayou for my initial B source and then had CtW + Pact + business and nothing to grab. Would you add a single Shield Sphere for this or do you consider that too much of a corner case? Here's the deck at 57 cards:

Artifacts - 13
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
1x Goblin Charbelcher

Creatures - 6
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Odious Trow
1x Slithermuse

Sorceries - 16
4x Infernal Contract
4x Cruel Bargain
4x Infernal Tutor
3x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ill-Gotten Gains

Instants - 20
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Culling the Weak
4x Summoner's Pact
4x Land Grant

Land - 2
1x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor

Wild Cantor? Another IGG for the proper loop?

Thanks in advance!


EDIT: And of course I didn't mean Shield Sphere....that green guy that you can play for free and let them gain life.

I don't know for sure, but I think you might be playing E. Witness wrong. I'd keep it in, and then drop in a Wild Cantor and another IGG. I don't necessarily like 0 disruption/protection, but that's why I don't often play SI.

--ABC

I could very well have been playing the Witness wrong, I just felt like GG was hard without LED (or Manamorphose which I didn't like either), and if I can Pact her up, cast her, then grab and cast something meaningful from my graveyard, I could just generally do something much better.

I don't usually like playing without protection either (usually play TES), but I found out that there are bi-weekly tournaments close by with a fairly under-developed meta (lots of aggro, not many Forces) and I want to tear it up. And I think this deck is both better and more fun to play than Belcher.

I know what you mean about Witness, but do you feel like the card has lost you more games than it won? For me, it's been all right as a last resort, and drawing it is a little annoying, but being able to Pact it with LED has been pretty good. I think one Wild Cantor seems all right, too. I've had more than one game where I had everything in my hand to cast a Slithermuse except the blue mana, which I very easily could have acquired if there had been one Cantor in my deck. I'd add a Charbelcher to your deck, if only because that tends to be the card I kill with--It's very easy to just trip dick first into a T1 Land Grant and some rituals into Belcher, T2 Pact out your Dryad Arbor and Belcher kill. Ill-Gotten Gains seems good too, because it makes using Tendrils of Agony so much easier, and it's very nice to make your opponent discard four cards before they untap for their first turn. Skyshroud Cutter, the free creature you were talking about, is okay if you feel like you often start out the game with a forest, and you're okay with having to play two more spells for Tendrils/dig five cards deeper with Charbelcher. I tried it and I felt like I was packing too much into the deck.

If you don't like playing without protection, I'd say playing the version with the Phyrexian Walkers and the Shield Spheres is the way to go. The difference between the speed of the two has been negligible for me because I haven't masted the Pact deck yet. I also think that Shield Spheres to block against aggro is awesome if you mess up in the first turn. (The only thing I never liked was hands with more than one 0 mana guy.)

What you'd learn about the deck as you as play with it for a while is that you don't need protection Game 1. Just keep on casting bombs until one resolves. The deck has the capability of doing that, since it doesn't rely on one card (e.g. Ad Nauseam) or the liability of going Hellbent for Infernal Tutor to get to do something.

It's a different thing for me post-board against blue though, as I board in, at the very east, 4 Xantid Swarm, 4 Carpet of Flowers, and 4 Duress. :tongue:

I'm gonna put this out there, Eternal Witness is the nuts. GG is not difficult to achieve in a deck that runs 4 Elvish Spirit Guide, 4 Lotus Petal, 4 Summoner's Pact and 4 Manamorphose. Here are some of the shenanigans I've pulled with witness:

1. Return Cruel Bargain back to my hand after I had drawn 14 cards and hit no business, then draw IT with a LED in play. (Classic play)
2. Return Culling the weak with B floating, culling Witness and tendrils for an extra storm.
3. Return Belcher from my graveyard after a duress, play belcher and activate.
4. Return Thoughtseize to get rid of the second Mindbreak trap in my opponent's hand.
5. Beat down for 2 turns vs Landstill, reducing the required storm count.
6. Buy turns vs aggro via chumping/trading.

Although admittedly the last 4 don't happen very often, there have been many many times that Pact for Witness return draw4 has won me the game. I've also used the culling trick a lot, sometimes you just need that 1 more storm because your draw4 was light. At my last tournament Witness won me 4 games. It's hard to get used to, but when you play the deck enough you see the lines of play that Witness opens up. Witness is the reason I switched to the pact list.