Tried out a singleton Cursed Scroll this weekend. Was originally going to be Mortarpod, but I figured the mana to activate wouldn't be a problem most of the time, and 2>1, so why not? Pretty happy with it overall.
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Tried out a singleton Cursed Scroll this weekend. Was originally going to be Mortarpod, but I figured the mana to activate wouldn't be a problem most of the time, and 2>1, so why not? Pretty happy with it overall.
I thought about the scroll too. I thought it could work as another artifact that could (theoretically) be recurred with Glissa, the Traitor. Glissa + Engineered Explosives didnt make any impressive results so i forgot about the scoll. I will give it a try as a one-off.
I just want some other ways of controlling Explorer's ability besides Therapy and Tower. My initial impressions of the Explorer plan/manabase were that too often against decks with lots of spot removal like Zoo and Thresh/UR Delver, I'd open on an explorer but not a sac outlet, which I feel completely negates the early advantage.
Some other possibly useful outlets:
Bone Splinters
Metamorphosis
Altar of Bone
Diabolic Intent
Culling of the Weak
Also, going back through the thread I don't see much discussion of Dark Confidant. Currently trying to work on a list that eschews the big bomby creatures for Bobs, while still taking advantage of a large number of basics in play. Has anyone else tried going this route?
Garruk Relentless (both sides) offers a method to destroy Explorer. He also fits the deck's gameplan very nicely.
I kinda like Diabolic Intent. Another good sac outlet is innocent blood.
I played once with 2 Dark Confidant, which worked out pretty nice over all. However, since spell snare is dominant right now I think playing alot of 2 drops or none/allmost none could be considered.
I also noticed how the G/B version is soft to certain lands, Riptide Lab etc. Since Pulse doesn't hit those lands, I am going to play with 1-2 Beast Within. A 3/3 token shouldn't be that big of an issue with deeds and what not.
I hope my english makes some kind of sense :)
Totally meant to have Innocent Blood on that list, my bad. Has anyone thought about using Aven Mindcensor to really make Explorer one-sided, or is that focusing too much on Explorer at the expense of the rest of the deck?
I think it is really time for this to go Established. 21 results on TCdecks plus more that are not reported there is quite good.
I have an updated OP ready but will wait till after the ban anouncement with it.
It's my understanding that most of the top Legacy decks run few if no basic lands. Moreover, decks that do run more than 2 basics can't really take advantage of the extra mana resources as well as this deck can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
I used to play Gifts Rock a long time ago and I tested Nic Fit out after seeing its promising results, and I really think that adding a 3rd color to this deck is a mistake. Being able play effectively in the absence of a T1 explorer on 3 colors is very difficult (Hymn most notably).
Another point I'd like to bring up is the necessity for "bombs". Grave Titan, Baneslayer Angel, Sun Titan and company are all good cards but they are anchors in the early game. Packing 4 Explorers in a deck does not guarantee you a lategame. I think there are way better 4-5 CMC bombs out there to abuse before delving into 6-7 CMC creatures.
With that being said, what about Abyssal Persecutor and Garruk, Primal Hunter? I have found Percy to be absolutely fantastic for this deck, and wouldn't be surprised if he became a staple. This baby gives Diabolic Intent and Cabal Therapy an additional use. Having to remove him when my opponent has 0 life has never been an issue. I think a 6/6, Flying, Trample, drawback-free demon for 4 mana is broken. Percy also has a great interaction with Deed because it its CMC is being 1 above almost everything in the format, and at 4 CMC, he is also low enough to be able to rely on Deed as a Percy outlet.
Also, is Wall of Blossom really that useful? He is pretty good on the draw but pretty sub-par as a GSZ target. I usually preffer to GSZ an Explorer instead, and once you hit 4 mana, there are just so many better tutor targets such as Finks and Witness. I have yet to be in a situation where Blossom is the best choice.
I completely agreed with that during the misstep days, but found a preference for a light white splash post misstep. The one mana removal of swords is amazingly efficient, dodges all of the spell snare removal that black creature kill offers, and doesn't cost life compared to dismember. I absolutely love the robust mana base that BG offers, but found it worthwhile to go into white for 4 swords, 2 QPMs, 0-1 elspeth/gideon, 2 sun titan. The one versus two mana also comes up relevant when playing witness -> get back and replay swords, and GSZ -> witness, replay swords.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Edit: if a great 5 mana green/black/gold creature gets printed in EDH Commander sets I will be the first to give up Sun Titan or Grave Titan, but as it is now the 6 mana titans outclass any 5 drop by such a large amount there is not any viable alternatives.
This is where we differ, my mana curve tops at 5 with a singleton Garruk, Primal Titan.Quote:
Originally Posted by conboy31
But back to playing 3 colors. It is quite easy to agree that Vindicate > Pulse, STP > Dismember, and that Sun Titan > Grave Titan to some extent. The only significant upgrade there is StP. However, adding white opens up new vulnerabilities. In the absence of an Explorer or the presence of an undying Explorer, the white splash becomes a liability. Stifle, Wasteland, Vindicate, or any form of land destruction become very threatening(which happen to be very popular in Tempo RUG). Early Moon effects are now backbreaking and you must rely on the power of prayer to find basic lands with Top. While playing 2 colors, though, land destruction is a real pleasure. I love seeing my opponent spend ressources to slow down my mana development because it only ever delays Hymn and Witness.
This issue with colored mana in the 3c version wouldn't be as major if it didn't feature as many double-costed cards. This deck already features cards with CMC beyond 4, its primary concern should be to be able to reach that point in the fastest and safest way possible with some degree of consistency. Even with 4 Birds and 4 Veteran, not only would card quality suffer, being able to reach double black, white, and green would still represent some risks. I am not suggesting that adding a 3rd color isn't possible, what I am saying is that it isn't worth it. The risks outweigh the benefits by a significant margin. Your first opponent should be in front of you, not hiding in your manabase.
Here is my list, open for criticism:
Creatures (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Abyssal Persecutor
Spells (17)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Diabolic Intent
3 Maelstrom Pulse
Artifacts/Enchantments (6)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
Planeswalkers (2)
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Lands (21)
1 Wasteland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Swamp
Sideboard (15)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Damnation
I swapped Wickerbough Elder with Viridian Shaman because of the mana cost. Having to pay 6 mana on a GSZ to get rid of an artifact was a very poor play, at that point in the game, getting a Witness to grab back a Pulse/Deed was usually a better choice. I usually can't get rid of an early Batterskull/Jitte/SoFaF with Elder fast enough, and Shaman can.
Percy is an allstar in this deck. I have found myself playing multiple against Zoo where I can easely get rid of two Percy at the same time (Deed, Damn, Pulse, Intent, Tower/Therapy). He is also fast enough to save the day against Bskull, big enough to outclass any flyer, and is absolutely terrifying when his drawback is a non-issue. Also, Percy's mana cost allows me one sided board wipes with Deed, just like Tombstalker.
Garruk, Primal Hunter has replaced Harmonize and does absolutely everything this deck needs: poops out bodies, draws massive amounts of cards, and wins if you give it enough time. My #1 tutor target followed by Liliana.
I have mixed feelings about Diabolic Intent, it may be a win-more card. It needs more testing.
What immediately stands out to me is 4x Persecutors. The guy absolutely sucks in multiples, and you have 3 Tops + fetches to fix your draws. Consider that even in the Gate, a deck built around him with way more sac effects, most people don't want to run more than 3. I would cut at least one, probably for another Ooze, and probably a second one for an extra Liliana or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
I have played enough Gate to know how bad he is with any less than 12 outlets. I know how much restrictions he puts on your deck and how difficult sideboarding becomes when he forces you to hold on to dead cards. The gate usually has 2 Therapy, 4 Gatekeeper, and 4 Edict/GftT/Blood for 3 Percy. I have 4 Therapy, 2 Intent, 3 Pulse, 3 Deed, 1 Lily, and 1 Tower for 4 Percy. That is not counting the 4 GSZ that can fetch 2 Witness and bring back any of those. Also, I believe I did mention that I have tested playing multiple Percy against Zoo, and that it does work beautifully. Even without Damnation, there are 2 Intent, 1 Tower, 3 Pulse, and 3 Deed that allow multiple Percy on the field, and again, that is discounting the 4 GSZ and 2 Witnesses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
Fair enough. Have you tried that list with just 3? Still seems to me like 3 + 3 Tops will have you seeing one basically every game, but significantly reduce the chances of opening with one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
On a related note, stupid idea of the day: Explorer/Persecutor/GSZ Deck with Leyline of Singularity.
With the recent rule changes, we may have gotten a gift for versions that run academy rector. Basically a worship that dodges lifeloss and the requirement to have a creature.
"1.4. OPTIONAL ABILITIES
Traditionally, some abilities include the word ‘may’ as part of their text, indicating that their effect is optional. At Competitive and Professional REL, some additional triggered abilities and enters-the-battlefield replacement effects are considered optional. The player is not required to follow the instruction when the ability resolves, and if the ability is forgotten it will not retroactively be applied. An optional ability does one or more of the following things, and nothing else:
•Gains you life or causes an opponent to lose life.
•Puts cards from your library, graveyard, or exile zones into your hand or onto the battlefield. This includes
•drawing cards.
•Causes opponents to put objects from their hand or the battlefield into the library, graveyard or exile.
•Puts a permanent into play under your control or gives you control of a permanent.
•Puts +x/+x counters, or counters linked to a beneficial effect, on a permanent you control.
•Gives +x/+x or a beneficial ability to a target creature you control.
•Exiles, damages, destroys, taps, or gives -x/-x to an opponent's target permanent. If the ability could target
•your own permanents, it is not optional unless that ability could target an opponent.
•Gives you additional turns or phases.
•Counters a spell or conditionally counters a spell, but only when cast by an opponent.
Abilities that trigger at the same point in each players turn and do something to “that player” (e.g. Howling Mine) are never optional.
This list is comprehensive. An ability that does not fit all of the criteria above is not optional, even if it is to the benefit of the player controlling the ability. Similarly, an optional ability is always optional, even if it would be to the detriment of the player for it to happen. "
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...tiverseid=8875
Enchantment 3WWW
You don't lose the game for having 0 or less life.
When you have 20 or more life, you lose the game.
Whenever you lose life, you gain 2 life for each 1 life you lost. (Damage dealt to you causes you to lose life.)
I guess it could be a 1 of in the sb for decks that can't deal with enchantments.
It only works PTQ, Nationals, PT or GP though and not on local weekly or monthly tournaments.
Alright, sorry it took me a few days to get this around. First, the list:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
3 Academy Rector
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Sun Titan
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Moat
1 Debtor’s Knell
3 Garruk Relentless
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Urborg, tomb of Yagmoth
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
//SB
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Choke
2 Memoricide
2 Leyline of Sanctity
Round 1 set the theme of the tournament: teamkills. My area fielded nine out of the thirty-ish players, but so some of that is expected, but man, did we TK a lot. The first round was one such.
R1: Tom with Dreadstill.
This was not a matchup that I had ever tested against, since Dreadstill has kind of never really recovered in popularity from the Misstep era. That said, I used to play the deck, and I know how to pick it apart. I won the roll, and led off with a Therapy on Stifle. He had 2 in his opener. Welp. The game dragged on for a while, as he set up countertop and a Bob while I blew up the world with Deed. He eventually found a Trickbind for one of the Noughts that were stranded in his hand, and I couldn't find another Deed or GSZ in time.
G2 saw a similar opening to the first game, except that I managed to Surgical his stifles. He laid out a Tormods and a Relic on his turn 1, and we durdled around for a while. He landed countertop, but by that point, I was dropping bombs that he couldn't CB: ie, Kokusho. He had literally no answer to the dragon, and we went to g3.
G3 was a nightmarish slugfest. He had a fast CB/Top, which didn't really do that much. He also had a Pithing Needle on Pernicious Deed, though.I make a crucial mistake here: I GSZ for a Qasali, to try to blast through the Needle. Instead, as I was sitting on 5 mana with a Yosei in hand, I should have gone for an Explorer, as I had a sac outlet for it. His Forces had also been surgicaled at this point, so the only way he could have stalled it out was to keep bouncing it with Jace every turn, which would have been preferable to the constant fatesealing every turn. He managed to exile my library in turns, but I had 4 cards to put back and a Moat in play for his Trinket + Mishra beat team, so we ended up drawing what should have been a 2-1 for me. Oh well.
0-0-1.
R2: Bryce with Enchantress.
I don't like Enchantress, because competent players always have Karmic Justice. Sure enough, he has one maindeck, and finds it very quickly. I manage to beat him down to 6, when he drops a Moat. At that point, I have Master in play with an Elspeth in hand. Unfortunately, he chooses that moment to go batshit, and about twenty enchantments later, my Master is dead from Words of War, and I'm in a very bad spot. Rather than waste time against a deck where time matters, I scoop and we're on to game two.
G2, I'm feeling pretty good about my hand. I have double Deed, and a GSZ, as well as some other goodies. He drops a turn 2 Karmic Justice. I reply by GSZing for Pridemage and nuke it immediately. I feel much, much better after that -- until he drops a second the next turn. Apparently he had 2/2 Karmic Justices in his list in his opening hand. I comment immediately that I don't know if I can even beat that, but that I'll try. As he sets up, I Memoricide his Replenishes. Then, with a Deed under an O-Ring and an Explorer in play, I crack my 2nd Deed for 3. This leaves a Moat and lands in play on his side, and two lands + Deed on mine. I also successfully killed (permanently, without Replenish) Words of War, as well as a pile of other crap. He drops Sigil of the Empty Throne, and then casts O-Ring. My only legal target is Deed, so I crack it for 0 to wipe out the token he got (since Sigil is on cast), and to force him to O-Ring one of his own permanents. We durdle for a while, and I thought I might be able to draw it out with a win (I had Sun Titan and Elspeth in hand, but only one white source in play, with a white dual and ample fetches left in my deck). He manages to drop enough mana enchantments, though, to cast Emrakul. GG, goddraw, gg.
0-1-1.
R3: Tim with Sligh.
I'm feeling pretty good about this matchup, since I'd seen him playing the deck earlier in the day. I have a good matchup vs burn, and Finks are just as happy to block Keldon Marauders as they are to beat face for 3. The only thing I'm really scared of is Ball Lightning and Hell's Thunder. He keeps a shaky 1-lander, and proceeds to never find another mana source. Luckily for me, I didn't open with an Explorer -- in fact, I never even saw one that game, so he definitely didn't have the chance to dig out of his screw.
G2 means Leylines and Finks. I open one Finks, and then GSZ for another. Then I hardcast a Leyline, and he scoops and walks away angrily.
1-1-1.
R4: Tom with Zoo.
This is a re-match of the finals from the last time I was here. He comments that he spent a half hour looking at my decklist trying to figure out how to beat it. I shrug, and quickly demoralize him some more. Neither of our games were even remotely close. I enjoy Zoo being a bye.
2-1-1.
R5: Jack with kind of Gate.
I have no idea how this deck was at the higher tables, although maybe he just didn't draw well against me. It was like an old-school monoblack control with Hypnotic and Abyssal Specters, Royal Assassins, the Rack, and a pile of discard. He also was sporting Icy Manipulator, like a boss. He also didn't seem very interested in the match, so I just went through the motions and killed him fast. There's nothing really to say about this matchup =/
Semis:
First, a note. My crew only managed to put 3 in the top 8 this time, due to all of the teamkilling. The top 8 included High Tide, Affinity, and two Zoo decks. That's 4 byes in the top 8. The rest of the top is a RUG Dreadnought deck, UW Stoneblade, and one of my better friends and brewing partners, playing Deadguy. So, of course I get matched up against the one person that I absolutely do not want to play.
Top8: Tony with Deadguy.
Our matches are usually coinflips, but I'm definitely scared of this. Tony knows exactly how to pick my deck apart, at least as far as the matchup is concerned. I get screwed game one while he has a Nighthawk with a Batterskull on it. Cool story.
G2 is much more interesting. He discards a Deed early, and immediately Extripates it. Without onboard removal for his equipment, I'm in a very dangerous spot. I still stabilize the board, while he has no cards in hand. Unfortunately, he draws very well, and quickly reestablishes his board presence with multiple Bobs, Jitte, and eventually Batterskull.
0-2.
I remained sore for a while at the pairings, and am frankly still a little annoyed that it worked out that way. If I could have gotten by Tony, I would have won the event, hands down. I would have played Affinity next, and then Zoo in the finals. Derp. Such is life, though, I suppose. All in all, I don't think I'd change even one card in my list right now. It runs pretty much perfect with regards to my playstyle, and can beat damn near anything if I don't make mistakes or get godhanded. I've actually very happy with it.
And once I go up to Vestal on the 7th, I'll have my 2nd Korean Veteran Explorer =)
*updated OP and Established
What do you guys think of 1-2 copies of Bloodgift Demon? Paying 2 more mana on Phyrexian Arena to get a 5/4 Flying body sounds pretty good for Nic Fit.
Also, Maelstrom Pulse vs. Putrefy, which is better? Pulse hits Planeswalkers and enchantments but Putrefy is instant speed. On one hand, being able to destroy Jace and Elspeth is great, but there aren't many threatening enchantments running about. Pulse also has that whole 'getting rid of copies thing' that comes into play every once in a while. On the other hand, being able to fight back Riptide Laboratory and Batterskull with instant speed is important too, especially because they are rampant.
Against batterskull your best bet is to kill SFM. You don't let them untap with SFM, if you do you're likely doing it wrong. And even if batterskull hits play you can simply play a bigger dude actually with this deck or maybe have an opportunity to pulse the batterskull itself. Pulse also kinda helps the combo MU like Qweerios said against EtW tokens if they go that route. Although this is the same with putrefy; if they play out LED too soon you can putrefy it in response to something other than infernal tutor or burning wish or ad nauseam itself.
But the big one for me is that pulse can hit 'walkers. Therefore I like it infinitely more; blowing up jace if they lack a counterspell or another jace is quite strong so you don't have to try to fight through jace with creatures. Same with elspeth, which is seeing play in maverick. Pulse is also useful against random rogue decks with annoying enchantments or what have you.
Batterskull is slow, giving infinite time to answer it. Thrun blocks for days.
If the game has reached parity, my most common way of (eventually) answering Batterskull involves nuking the world for five w/ Deed and then Cabal Therapying it out of their hand when they return it. It's wonky, but they don't have many threats, so it works.
Putrefy is not a card imo. I went up to three Pulses, mostly for Jace, but answering opposing lilis is relevant too.
I am going to test the deck in a few weeks and I don't know what list I should try first. The BGW with the academy rectors, recurring nightmares and so on or Durward's BG version?
What card should be cut to have exactly 60 cards in Durward's list? I don't like to play 61 cards in a deck.
There aren't 61 cards, that was a mistake in the listing. There's only 1 Thrun, not x2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theonlyone
@Theonlyone --
It depends on your personal playstyle, honestly. I would probably say that you should test Caleb's first, because even if you don't like it, you have some experience with the archetype then, and Caleb's, since he top8'd with it, is more likely to be seen running around than the GBW Rector version. I prefer the Rector version, but that's because it fits with my playstyle more. The great thing about Explorer decks is that you can pretty much build them to suit whatever your individual style is -- it lets you play a "rogue" deck, while playing an established archetype. And I'm pretty sure that we've only scratched the surface here.
Also, for what it's worth, I agree regarding Pulse vs Putrefy. Pulse wins every time. This deck can be slightly soft to Jace, so having more answers for him is a very welcome thing.
PS - yay us, for making established!
I have recently settled on a Nic Fit list that I felt was best (giving up on GWb Maverick). I decided against Diabolic Intent simply because the card is inherently flawed. The secondary uses of Intent do not make up for the card advantage-for-card quality exchange. Diabolic Intent can safely be labeled as a win-more card. Now with less sac outlets for Percy, I followed Richard Cheese's advice and cut them down to 3.
Abyssal Nic Fit:
Creatures (15)
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
3 Abyssal Persecutor
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Deranged Hermit
Spells (15)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Maelstrom Pulse
Others (7)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (23)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
4 Swamp
Sideboard (15)
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Extirpate
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Damnation
However, there is 1 slot I really cannot make up my mind about: What is the best GSZ target in GB to destroy Artifacts/Enchantments. The experience I've had with Wickerbough Elder has left me bitter. As I have explained before, by the time I have 6 lands on the board, I am either holding, or have already used a Pulse or a Deed, and fetching a Witness is about as good if not better. Viridian Shaman is limited to Artifacts only and isn't as versatile on the draw because playing him proactively in the absence of artifacts is suboptimal. Viridian Zealot (or Qasali Pridemage) is half the cost of Wickerbough for the same ability, but he dies in the process instead of leaving you with a 4/4 body. However, the fact that Zealot dies when activated makes him more abusive in conjunction with Witness and Stronghold. The main cards I find myself using GSZ to get rid of are Batterskull, Jitte, and SoFaF. Against UW Counterblade, if they are on the draw, they can simply lay down a T1 SFM into T2 Batterskull and there is nothing I can do about it but try to Therapy/Hymn Batterskull away (assuming they don't counter). Against their wall of counters, I need to be able to come up with disruption and answers for Batterskull relentlessly in order to catch my breath and stomp them later (assuming they dont destroy me with Lab + Snap), and Wickerbough doesn't turn GSZ into early Bskull removal.
When I was reading about CalebD's top8 list, it got me thinking about the singleton Skeletal Scrying he wanted to implement. I can see how an EOT Scrying for 4+ get you back up in a losing game or seal the deal in a tied match, but I also see the card as a dead card to have in the early and mid-game. Also, bringing the board to a stall often leaves me with a low life total, making Scrying just as dead in the late-game. It seems to me that Volrath's Stronghold is just about as good in the late-game as Scrying without necessarily being dead in the early stages.
Hey I was toying with Nic Fit and actually create unusual list:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Life from the Loam
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Natural Order
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Forest
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 4 Innocent Blood
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Kitchen Finks
SB: 4 Hymn to Tourach
What is new ? NO's and 2 targets which also can be fetched from GSZ quite easy Primeval Titan and Avenger of Zendikar - most of guys can think that they're too slow but most of time, as long as game goes on you have plenty of time and your mana growth on. I added also Life from the Loam to cycle important lands, and never had problems with targets under Volrath's Stronghold. I adnotice that Hermit isn't a bomb without Recurring Nightmare..
SB is still a mess but mostly I like Innocent Blood there very anti-aggro card.
Deck is very funny to play - having 8 toxes 4/5 in legacy isn't too usual :).
Hi,
I have been testing both the GB version and the GBw version of Arianrhod (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ontrol)/page12 post 232 of this thread) and I feel that this deck sometimes mulls into oblivion (testing on an online program cockatrice so there is a random factor) because of low land count. I swapped out 1 Academy Rector for another Savannah (22 lands now) and I feel it runs much more smoother. I have had a number of ragequits which involved me raping the board and hand of my opp. Feels dirty....:cool:
any comments on the addition of 1 land?
I don't think anyone will try to discourage you from running the 22nd land. I am confident, and it is probably obvious, that a 22nd land would be more correct than dropping to 20 with this deck. It is also worth noting that the list you copied is one of the higher casting cost versions of this archetype.
For example (excluding ability to cheat into play), his cmc is 109 vs. the more common mid 80s to high 90s.
I like the interaction between recurring nightmare and yosei or kokusho because it gives either a soft lock/break stalemate or an alternate kill. Sun Titan can be really nuts at times. The only time I felt I needed the rectors was against combo elves to cheat deed into play. Sun Titan into deed before blocks is dirty as well.
After testing only a short time I feel this deck can be a pain to play against, it's niche and that is how I like it.
I'm glad you're enjoying it, slaydo. I'd definitely recommend checking out my updated list (back a page at post 297, if that makes it easier to find). I believe (this is out my ass without checking) that my cmc has come down a bit, so the extra land may be unnecessary now. Also, and beyond any other real reason, you haven't lived until you've shot a Rector with Garruk Relentless. It's quite possibly the dirtiest feeling I've had in magic (and I play Oath in vintage). Relentless has a ridiculous amount of synergy with the rest of the deck.
That said, I certainly agree with Conboy -- more lands in this archetype rarely feels like a bad move. I usually don't run into trouble, but I'm also sitting at 22 land (if you count Dryad Arbor, which it periodically is). If you have any questions, feel free to either post them or shoot me a PM.
I am begining to think that Primeval Titan might be better than Grave Titan.
Primeval can:
-Trample;
-be fetched via GSZ;
-take less deck space;
-grabs you Volrath's Stronghold and another land such as Wasteland to get rid of Riptide Laboratory/Maze of Ith when it comes into play;
-overall offer you more versatility, resillience, and synergy.
Grave can:
-Deathtouch;
-grant you tokens as blockers or to kill your opponent quicker;
-be substituted by Deranged Hermit to some degree;
-give you bad starting hands and draws when played in multiples;
-overall grant you creatures instead of lands (the effect is more immediate) at a higher opportunity cost.
Do with this as you will, Qweerios --
A few months ago, I had a similar notion, which led to a more combo finish concept, with Primeval fetching Coffers/Urborg and then using the bonkers mana resulting to loop Nightmare with Kokusho an arbitrarily large number of times. After testing it in one small local event, I dismissed it as hilarious and win-more, but if you sculpt the deck around it a bit more, there might be some design room there. It's also entirely possible that it's just absolutely janky and awful and should be tossed aside immediately.
I do agree that a good green 6 would be greatly appreciated -- the threshold of power between 5-drops and 6-drops is just enormous, and this deck doesn't care as much as most others. I think that at the moment, the best we can do is run a Fierce Empath...although that takes up a precious deck slot. At the same time, Zenithing for Empath into Sun Titan is about as big of a knockout as you can ask for.
Uhh... I don't know what is so similar there to be honest. I compared both titans for what they brought to the table and the restrictions they put on building the deck, no combos. I personally don't like the combo approach and disaprove of 6-drops altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Also, has anybody else been having trouble against Blue Burn?
Burn in general seems bad for this deck. Lots of basics, fast clock. Game 1 it seems like you have to hope to see multiple Therapies, and Finks if you run it. Leyline of Sanctity out of the board seems like it would make it a lot easier. Blue versions still have Delver and possibly Guide/Snapcaster to swing with, but Deed fixes those guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Edit: I also like Primeval better than Grave titan, just because tokens + Deed seems underwhelming, but I'm not convinced that either is entirely necessary.
Red Burn isn't as much of a problem as Blue Burn though. Red will run out of steam if you can land 1 discard spell and manage to find a finks. Everything you do against mono red goes uncountered. The thing about blue burn is that if I don't start, I lose. I can't get rid of Delver before it dishes out 6 damage, throw in Goblin Guide and even if I sweep the board on T4, I have 10-12 life remaining. Very fast decks tend to be hard to outlive. I am seriously considering the following for my sideboard as replacement for a couple of Damnation:
Sorin's Thirst
Infest
Tribute to Hunger
Consuming Vapors
What builds have you been testing against/having trouble with particularly? I'm also working on a U/R Burn deck at the moment, so I can definitely run through a few games on Cockatrice with you if you want. Could use some pointers on my budding but janky Nic Fit list anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
I finally settled on Consuming Vapors. It does everything i need from Damnation against Reanimator, Emrakul/Progenitus, Maverick/Deadguy (decks using Mother of Runes). It bought me back into Blue Burn and fast Zoo everytime i drew it.
Sorin's Thirst was too specific to the Blue Burn matchup and didn't really help against any other fast decks I had trouble with. Tribute to Hunger does a fine job being instant speed and 3 CMC, but cannot target Percy.
Hi guys,
I recently stumbled across a somewhat different Nit Fit list abusing gifts ungiven and after some testing I have to say it really like it.
The list:
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Doran, the Siege Tower
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Eternal Witness
3 Wall of Blossoms
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Regrowth
3 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
SB: 1 Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 3 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 1 Loaming Shaman
SB: 1 Trygon Predator
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 The Abyss
I'm not say its optimal or anything but I just find it a blast to play. Is anyone still working on Gifts Ungiven lists or is the whole gifts concept abandoned?
@Removal: Damnation is horrible against Delver, but it is in the SB to keep being ahead against Maverick and Merfolk post board. But I don't think overcosted lifegain stuff is the answer to Delver decks either. 1 Mana removal is the key imo. The easiest way would be to use White for Swords to Plowshares but if you stick with Black Innocent Blood, Darkblast or Disfigure are viable choices.
@Gifts: Rafiq, War Monk and Doran seem like great Swords to Plowshares targets for them, though War Monk could be worth running against Lightning Bolt decks. Horizon Canopy is just too greedy. In Gifts lists I would play one Sun Titan, it makes a good target together with Recurring Nightmare and Witness.
Another option for Gifts decks would be to steal tech from Modern and add one Unburial Rites. It is an ok card on its own and if you only search two cards they both go to the yard so you get a free Reanimate of whatever you like but I am not sure if it is worth it.
@Primeval Titan: Sound very good, I will test it. Riptide Lab is such a plague and it could be a decent GSZ target. Grabbing Stronghold sounds nice.
I have been still tinkering with my Gifts list alongside my primary list. Here's what I've got, for reference:
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Viridian Zealot
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Snapcaster Mage
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Fierce Empath
2x Eternal Witness
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Consecrated Sphinx
1x Frost Titan
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
4x Brainstorm
3x Gifts Ungiven
3x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Living Wish
1x Regrowth
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Phyrexian Tower
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Forest
3x Island
2x Swamp
1x Dryad Arbor
//SB
1x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Simic Sky Swallower
1x Trygon Predator
2x Krosan Grip*
4x Spell Pierce*
4x Hymn to Tourach*
Note: the asterisk'd sideboard slots (10 of them) are completely unknown at this point. They only reason there's a sideboard at all is so that I have the Wish targets laid out for Cockatrice. Also, Viridian Zealot sucks balls, but I have yet to find anything better, unfortunately.
My thoughts on the deck are as follows:
-) It's much, much scarier later-game than probably any other version. Nightmare loops with Snapcaster just feel dirty and wrong. Having access to Brainstorm also helps (shocking, I know). Fetches, Explorers, and GSZ give plenty of shuffles.
-) A 1-of Living Wish to put as a wild card for Gifts piles is amazing. Individual sideboard slots will vary, but Sky Swallower is still my UG control finisher of choice. Nothing kills that in legacy.
-) It's slow. Even with Explorers to ramp up (necessary for Gifts IMO), it's painfully, painfully slow. It definitely doesn't take a dump on aggro decks like the rock-colored lists, and Merfolk is actually pretty shitty if you don't see a Deed. Welcome to being a blue deck, I suppose.
-) It's not good against combo. The loss of Hymn without any counterspells added is brutal for your combo matchup. This is a deck that is designed to out-attrition control mirrors, and not do a whole hell of a lot else, apparently.
-) On the plus side, blue gives you Consecrated Sphinx, which is IMO the best 6-drop you could possibly use in an Explorer deck. By the time he lands, they won't have removal, and Explorers will have sucked out a lot of land from your deck, making every card he draws you gas. Every time I've resolved Sphinx, I've won. Period. Frost Titan isn't horrible, and gives you random outs to problems you might otherwise die to, but I think he's safely cuttable. Kokusho is industry-standard for my lists at this point. He's unmatched as an alternate wincon.
-) Speaking of alternate wincons, the best way to beat Jace is to play Jace. Sometimes the deck just plays like Jacestill, which is annoying and not really what I -want- to be doing with the deck, but Jace + Deed is indeed a thing (pun intended).
-----
TL;DR:
1. Gifts is slow, unwieldy against aggro, and has no game against combo. Different deck construction (more Gifts Rock, less Nic Fit) might fix that.
2. Gifts rapes control decks, hard. Consecrated Sphinx is Jesus on a cinnamon bun (no idea what this means, but it sounds good).
3. Living Wish is surprisingly useful.
4. At the end of the day, go for it. If you enjoy the Gifts version, build it. The glorious thing about this archetype is that you can literally build a rogue deck within the accepted shell, and it'll work at least some of the time. More than that, you'll have to work on it. But it's entirely possible to just plain have fun with some of these decks. My suggestion would be to look more along the lines of a Gifts rock utilizing the Explorer engine and Nic Fit concepts, as opposed to taking a Nic Fit deck and shoehorning Gifts in. It's just too slow, and weakens the matchups vs combo and aggro too much.
Oh, and if you're going to go down this path, you really, really need the 1-of Snapcaster. Seriously. Even before you start Nightmare-looping it, it's just dirty in a Gifts Pile. They never know if you're going to snap back something they just binned, or if you're going to snap back Gifts (!).