[DTB] Blade Control

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TkDodo

I think its very hard to play around Spell Pierce. What do you want to do, not cast Jace for 2 more turns and just do nothing instead? If they start doing that you gain two sphere effects by just having them in your deck, which is superb!

---

Sphere effects are great when an opponent is playing Storm or on a decent clock, but if we're talking control mirror here, it's probably going to be land-go for a while. When I was playing Stoneblade, my game 2 had maybe 1 spell cast before turn 4. It's really not inconceivable that they just wait until they have extra mana up, or don't draw their Jace/whatever until later in the game when they can easily pay the 2. This deck can go some long games against non-aggro. I can see the argument for playing it against combo, but I'm not sure this deck has such a huge difficulty with combo that we want extra slots in the board for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TkDodo

KotR is important to get rid off, but StoP does a very good job at killing him. Also, if you have Wastelands and not just "wasted" them to randomly kill a dual, the utility lands they might get (Tower of the Magistrate, Maze of Ith) look a lot less scary, so you probably have another turn to find an answer to him. If you feel he is a particular problem, why not play Submerge in the side.

---

Yes, Swords kills Knight, but my point is more that Spell Pierce doesn't, which means if I'm swapping out Counterspells for Pierces there's one more relevant threat I have to Swords if he resolves. I'd rather just have more answers to Knight, as well as Clique, Stalker, Goyf, Pridemage, Snapcaster, and Mystic, all things that it would be quite beneficial to answer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TkDodo

Overlapping on answers isn't a problem. I'm fine with counterspelling a cmc2 spell if it is that important. You can do that with Spell Pierce too, like countering an early Sylvan Library or Hymn. Of course, the big argument against Pierce is like "what if he just plays that card on turn 4 and can pay for Pierce". In these spots, counterspell would be superior, which is why I suggest a split between them, but you can answer a lot of these situations with other counters you might have now because it's not turn two anymore, or with Snapcaster Mage re-buying a Spell Snare, or even double-piercing with Snapcaster Mage if you have 4 mana as well.

---

I get what you're saying, but I'm much more concerned about "spells that are cast when I have UU open" than "noncreatures that are cast when I have U open before an opponent has 2 open". The argument that you can answer these threats with other counters isn't an argument for running Spell Pierce, it's an argument for running those other counters, which I'm doing anyway (and remember, if you're not running Counterspell, your list of counters for non-2cc stuff is Force of Will and maybe Pyro). The real question is "what does Spell Pierce hit that Counterspell doesn't that I'm really worried about", and I'm not sure there's anything on that list personally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TkDodo

In the late game, Spell Pierce can still be good in a counter war, something along the line where he plays a threat, you force or spell snare, he counterspells or rebs or whatever and you pierce. Also, if people start playing Snapcaster Mage a lot, each instant/sorcery they flashback effectively cost 3+ mana, so they have a very hard time paying for Spell Pierce.

---

Counterspell is generally equally good in the late game, since the mana base usually has you with plenty of U lying around: you'll usually have an issue with the number of counters left in your hand before you start running low on mana. And if people start running Snapcaster more, I'd much rather just Counterspell the Snapcaster than let it resolve to start beating on me, then Pierce whatever they flashed back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frid

I seriously think sideboarding out force of wills is the biggest mistake one can make when playing a control deck. In general I have never boarded out more than one copy, and not very often.
Leave in swords and take force of will out and you'll whine when your opponent easily wins the counterwar for his jace and crushes you in card advantage while you sword his snapcasters and stoneforges that have already two for one'd you

---

But REB can and does win counter wars... even more efficiently than FoW since you don't have to 2-for-1 yourself. The only downside being it won't counter removal like FoW can, but against Control, it'll be so back and forth that I'd think the loss of CA is more relevant than holding board presence for an extra turn or two. The control mirror amounts to "who runs out of answers first" and I think Force doesn't help you there.

Also, Counterspell is definitely better late game or against Control decks, everyone can agree there. I think Spell Pierce becomes relevant against fast aggro (Vial, Zoo, etc) or even midrange (Rock and TA). Being able to play a Mystic turn 3 and stopping a removal spell can be huge. If you're on the play, a Spell Pierce will stop Vial or Thoughtseize. Spell Pierce is great at stopping Hymn, Bitterblossom, and Vindicate. Counterspell is great, but I don't think it can always help you on the turns that you need the most help.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dzra

(Another thought... don't laugh it off just yet, but maybe Mana Leak has a spot in place of Counterspell...? Paying three is nearly a hard counter for most Legacy decks. The exception would probably be late game in a control mirror. That way double Blue wouldn't be an issue unless you wanted to Taigo it back.)

---

- What the hell??

Verbal Warning for Spam. - Bardo

Edit:

- I really don't understand why you are even suggesting Mana Leak. Yes, you only need 1 blue but the issues of not having double blue in this sort of deck shouldn't come up that often.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dzra

What about Ancestral Visions? I'm still not sure about dropping those. For a pretty hard control deck like us, refilling our hand with answers seems almost essential. We shouldn't have a problem making it to turn 4-6 when it will pop.

---

Honestly, I'm liking the "more value" card advantage plan a lot better than I'm liking raw draw. Visions is kind of nice, but it doesn't help you much when things are coming for your throat, it's not really guaranteed to draw you much of anything (I usually don't have problems finding things to put back off a Brainstorm), and it's not Snapcastable. If I could Snap it for free +3 out of nowhere, I bet it'd see some play, but at that point it just hits broken.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dzra

(Another thought... don't laugh it off just yet, but maybe Mana Leak has a spot in place of Counterspell...? Paying three is nearly a hard counter for most Legacy decks. The exception would probably be late game in a control mirror. That way double Blue wouldn't be an issue unless you wanted to Tiago it back.)

---

Mana Leak is often going to be similar to a Counterspell, yes. But we have access to something that is always going to be similar to a Counterspell because it is one. Double Blue is rarely a real problem, and I'd rather risk the color requirements than risk randomly losing a control mirror (or the random combo deck with combo mana to spare) because they could pay for Leak. I have to respect the unorthodox idea though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dzra

But REB can and does win counter wars... even more efficiently than FoW since you don't have to 2-for-1 yourself. The only downside being it won't counter removal like FoW can, but against Control, it'll be so back and forth that I'd think the loss of CA is more relevant than holding board presence for an extra turn or two. The control mirror amounts to "who runs out of answers first" and I think Force doesn't help you there.

---

Remember though, the argument's not REB vs. FoW, the argument's FoW versus Swords, REB's going to be in there regardless. Force is card disadvantage, but it's another answer that participates in counter wars and can stop opposing Jaces. I think it's stronger than Swords, which will at best probably take out a Factory or something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dzra

Also, Counterspell is definitely better late game or against Control decks, everyone can agree there. I think Spell Pierce becomes relevant against fast aggro (Vial, Zoo, etc) or even midrange (Rock and TA). Being able to play a Mystic turn 3 and stopping a removal spell can be huge. If you're on the play, a Spell Pierce will stop Vial or Thoughtseize. Spell Pierce is great at stopping Hymn, Bitterblossom, and Vindicate. Counterspell is great, but I don't think it can always help you on the turns that you need the most help.

---

This seems reasonable, but I guess the issue is that I'm not convinced T3 Mystic (Pierce) versus T4 Mystic (Counterspell) will make a huge difference, especially since they can actually pay for the T3 removal if need be. As for the specific cards:
- I kind of like our matchup against Vial tribal lists already, especially postboard.
- Thoughtseize is pretty relevant, but as you said, it's only when you're on the play, which should hopefully be <50% of the time.
- Hymn and Bitterblossom are dealt with by Snares (and possibly Counterspell if you're on the play or it's not a T2).
- Vindicate's relevant, but I'm not sure where the play is where you have U but not UU open, they're at 3-4 mana, and they're Vindicating something you really need alive. I feel like I'm willing to risk that the number of situations where that will occur and I don't have Force is minimal.

There's no doubt that there are situations where Pierce will be stronger than Counterspell, but I feel like the situations where Counterspell will be stronger outweigh them. I like Pierce against combo and in a faster deck that controls lands better, but not here.

I lost both games due to him resolving a jace. Siding out fow wouldnt help me. I didnt see any REB and sword would just be a dead card. Siding out force against a control mirror is just wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Q 221

Sphere effects are great when an opponent is playing Storm or on a decent clock, but if we're talking control mirror here, it's probably going to be land-go for a while. When I was playing Stoneblade, my game 2 had maybe 1 spell cast before turn 4. It's really not inconceivable that they just wait until they have extra mana up, or don't draw their Jace/whatever until later in the game when they can easily pay the 2. This deck can go some long games against non-aggro.

---

I agree that in control mirrors, Counterspell is better than Spell Pierce, since they will not play a lot early (nor do we), especially if he plays Counterspells himself, where he will intentionally wait until he has 2 more mana open and thereby incidentially play around Spell Pierce as well. This, however, refers to "good" control players, but we have to be honest, there are a lot of "impatient" players who just can't wait to jam Jace on turn 4. The thing is, we have to take things like that into account when deciding what to play, and further, we do not only play control mirrors. We have to decide which card is better overall, in various matchups.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Q 221

I can see the argument for playing it against combo, but I'm not sure this deck has such a huge difficulty with combo that we want extra slots in the board for it.

---

Just because we have 4 Fow, 3 Spell Snare and 3 Counterspell doesn't mean that we don't have difficulties against combo. It is tough no matter what. And Spell Pierce is a lot better here simply because it's only a turn earlier and because it's online a turn earlier when flashbacking it, which is very important.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Q 221

Yes, Swords kills Knight, but my point is more that Spell Pierce doesn't, which means if I'm swapping out Counterspells for Pierces there's one more relevant threat I have to Swords if he resolves. I'd rather just have more answers to Knight, as well as Clique, Stalker, Goyf, Pridemage, Snapcaster, and Mystic, all things that it would be quite beneficial to answer.

---

I personally dislike countering creatures that can be easily handled with a removal effect, since the counters are much more valuable against things you cannot remove. Of course, CIP abilities hurt, and the fact that Counterspell can counter Cliques, Mystics and Snapcasters and Pierce can't is relevant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Q 221

I get what you're saying, but I'm much more concerned about "spells that are cast when I have UU open" than "noncreatures that are cast when I have U open before an opponent has 2 open". The argument that you can answer these threats with other counters isn't an argument for running Spell Pierce, it's an argument for running those other counters, which I'm doing anyway (and remember, if you're not running Counterspell, your list of counters for non-2cc stuff is Force of Will and maybe Pyro). The real question is "what does Spell Pierce hit that Counterspell doesn't that I'm really worried about", and I'm not sure there's anything on that list personally.

---

Every T1 play that isn't a creature, especially Aether Vial (although I believe that with Snapcaster Mage, we can almost ignore Vial and just remove their creatures over and over again, at least against Merfolk where most creatures don't have a CIP effect) and Sensei's Divining Top (maybe Entomb). I know that not having Counterspell leaves you vulnerable to spells with cmc > 2, and the main thing that comes to my mind is Vendilion Clique. However, you are pretty vulnerable to almost every T1 play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Q 221

Counterspell is generally equally good in the late game, since the mana base usually has you with plenty of U lying around: you'll usually have an issue with the number of counters left in your hand before you start running low on mana. And if people start running Snapcaster more, I'd much rather just Counterspell the Snapcaster than let it resolve to start beating on me, then Pierce whatever they flashed back.

---

True, optimally you just Snare the Snapcaster. But if I can't and they are about to flashback a relevant spell, I will take the option to pierce it. It's similar to stifling the CIP trigger of Stoneforge Mystic. Yes, the creature lives on and you've lost a card, so technically, you are down one card, but it's a pretty unimpressive creature if your opponent planned on flashbacking a REB to kill your Jace.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TkDodo

I agree that in control mirrors, Counterspell is better than Spell Pierce, since they will not play a lot early (nor do we), especially if he plays Counterspells himself, where he will intentionally wait until he has 2 more mana open and thereby incidentially play around Spell Pierce as well. This, however, refers to "good" control players, but we have to be honest, there are a lot of "impatient" players who just can't wait to jam Jace on turn 4. The thing is, we have to take things like that into account when deciding what to play, and further, we do not only play control mirrors. We have to decide which card is better overall, in various matchups.

---

If I'm assuming my opponents aren't playing optimally, I'll just play Hive Mind and expect them to save their counters for Pacts. Yes, some people are going to be bad, but that's not something you want to count on for deck construction. I agree that not every game is a control mirror, but some of them are, and it looks like control is going to be a decent part of the new metagame, which we're going to have to take into account.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TkDodo

Just because we have 4 Fow, 3 Spell Snare and 3 Counterspell doesn't mean that we don't have difficulties against combo. It is tough no matter what. And Spell Pierce is a lot better here simply because it's only a turn earlier and because it's online a turn earlier when flashbacking it, which is very important.

---

Agreed, and I haven't tested the combo matchup as much as I'd like to. However, remember that not every combo deck goes balls to the wall against control, since a lot of those plays get blown out by a Force. If they slow-roll and play with counter protection, Counterspell can potentially be stronger. And I'm not convinced that the cost reduction of Spell Pierce is going to be relevant there often enough to make up for Pierce's other shortcomings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TkDodo

I personally dislike countering creatures that can be easily handled with a removal effect, since the counters are much more valuable against things you cannot remove. Of course, CIP abilities hurt, and the fact that Counterspell can counter Cliques, Mystics and Snapcasters and Pierce can't is relevant.

---

I'm not particularly fond of countering creatures either, but if a Knight is on the stack and I don't have a Swords/Shackles, you better believe I'm going to counter it. Against something like Bant or Zoo, which the deck already has problems with, it's actually likely that most of the "must-counter" spells are going to be creatures.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TkDodo

Every T1 play that isn't a creature, especially Aether Vial (although I believe that with Snapcaster Mage, we can almost ignore Vial and just remove their creatures over and over again, at least against Merfolk where most creatures don't have a CIP effect) and Sensei's Divining Top (maybe Entomb). I know that not having Counterspell leaves you vulnerable to spells with cmc > 2, and the main thing that comes to my mind is Vendilion Clique. However, you are pretty vulnerable to almost every T1 play.

---

I agree with you that Vial is probably not a huge deal anymore, and I'm not really concerned about answering it. Our Merfolk strategy is less about countering them out (which was never a great idea against Merfolk anyway) and more about playing our own stuff that's good against them: SFM-->Batterskull, Shackles, Swords, and then Firespout, REB, and maybe Wrath postboard. Top is a good point, but I'm not convinced that alone is worth running Pierce for, and the only other T1 noncreature plays I see myself wanting to counter are stuff like Thoughtseize/Duress, which are nasty, but again, I'm OK with losing something to that and not having dead cards later. Entomb is bad too, but half the time against control Reanimator can just draw to 8 and pitch anyway, so being able to lock out an Entomb isn't going to do what we want it to do against them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TkDodo

True, optimally you just Snare the Snapcaster. But if I can't and they are about to flashback a relevant spell, I will take the option to pierce it. It's similar to stifling the CIP trigger of Stoneforge Mystic. Yes, the creature lives on and you've lost a card, so technically, you are down one card, but it's a pretty unimpressive creature if your opponent planned on flashbacking a REB to kill your Jace.

---

Or optimally you Counterspell the Snapcaster, which you can do with Counterspell but not Pierce. And while I agree you definitely want to Pierce the REB if you can, that Snapcaster can actually be a decent threat to Jace depending on your board state, and the alternative just kills Snapcaster, since it's not the kind of creature that comes down early.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Q 221

If I'm assuming my opponents aren't playing optimally, I'll just play Hive Mind and expect them to save their counters for Pacts. Yes, some people are going to be bad, but that's not something you want to count on for deck construction. I agree that not every game is a control mirror, but some of them are, and it looks like control is going to be a decent part of the new metagame, which we're going to have to take into account.

---

I think it's more like the philosophy of playing Standstill. The card is good, but not hard to play around and against correctly. The card is (was) so good because people play against it incorrectly a lot. If everybody knew the basics of playing against Standstill, the card wouldn't be played. Hive Mind is, incidentally, another good example. As long as people are saving their counters for Hive Mind and Show and Tell and were not countering the Intuitions, Hive Mind is fine. I'm not saying you have to expect your opponent to play badly, but you have to consider it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Q 221

Agreed, and I haven't tested the combo matchup as much as I'd like to. However, remember that not every combo deck goes balls to the wall against control, since a lot of those plays get blown out by a Force. If they slow-roll and play with counter protection, Counterspell can potentially be stronger. And I'm not convinced that the cost reduction of Spell Pierce is going to be relevant there often enough to make up for Pierce's other shortcomings.

---

Most combo decks except maybe Belcher have disruption in some form, either proactive (duress or chant) or reactive (Fow, Daze). I don't think that you can assume "oh, my opening hand has Fow, I am completely fine against combo". If so, you are assuming your opponent is playing badly ;)
Counterspelling a Reanimate on turn 2 or 3 and running it into Daze is just one of many examples where Spell Pierce is a lot better than Counterspell.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Q 221

I'm not particularly fond of countering creatures either, but if a Knight is on the stack and I don't have a Swords/Shackles, you better believe I'm going to counter it. Against something like Bant or Zoo, which the deck already has problems with, it's actually likely that most of the "must-counter" spells are going to be creatures.

---

Agreed, except that a lot of these decks have a GSZ toolbox. Aggro decks definitely can't wait to play around Pierce like a control deck can (maybe can). If you play enough (6, maybe 7) removals and Snapcasters, you should be able to handle those creatures you can't counter.

We also can't ignore the fact that having UU open is going to be harder against aggro decks, where we, at some point, just have to play our SFM to get something going and survive their onslaught. Also, every deck has some amount of mana that doesn't produce U, and Wasteland is always an issue. Yes, we can (and mostly will) fetch for basics. But sometimes we just open with a dual in hand and have no choice. Or we open with Island, Wasteland, Plains. Or we have UU but want to (or have to) Brainstorm first. I've played with Counterspell a lot since I'm actually a big fan of hard counters, but Brainstorming into it and not being able to cast it becuase your mana looks something like Island, Island, Plains was annoying from time to time. I'm not saying it's a huge factor, but we have to consider it.

As a result of this discussion, I'm probably trying the 2/2 split for the next weeks. Maybe this is just an "I can't decide so I diversify it", but I think we have solid arguments for both sides.

Assuming you are using a version similar to the one Chris van Meter piloted in the Legacy open - what cards do you board out

1. against Merfolk?
2. against Maverick?
3. against BUG or Team America?
4. against Storm?
5. against Reanimator?
6. against Zoo?

This may look easier than it actually is. For example, I was quite surprised when I heard that Gerry Thompson boards out his Force of Wills against Merfolk. I'm really interested in what cards you take out in various matchups!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bongo

For example, I was quite surprised when I heard that Gerry Thompson boards out his Force of Wills against Merfolk. I'm really interested in what cards you take out in various matchups!

---

- Boarding out Force of Wills against Merfolk isn't very surprising at all. The deck is fairly redundant: Merfolk, Counters, and Lands. The best way to fight merfolk is to not get into a counter war with them but to simply blow up all the fishes. FoW doesn't help do this and is a fairly dead card due to them running Aether Vial. UWr Blade Control decks can go nuts with SFM-BS, Blasts, Grims, etc.

I can see the point in boarding out one or even two copies of force of will when you board in like 7-8 cards as I do, but not all four. Cards like counterspell, vendilion clique and one or two jaces are usually worse. With force of will in the deck you can simply do stoneforge on turn 2, search up batterskull and win from there with free backup. I like easy victories, don't you?

Hi guys, I don't have any experience with this deck.
And I would like to ask what is the matchup against aggro?

ty

I thought boarding out FoW vs Merfolk was common knowledge at this point? (as it was years ago when all the cool kids were playing Landstill :cool:)

Force is horrible against them. That match-up is a grind that is entirely about card advantage. Pitching something like a Brainstorm to FoW some random dork is how you lose games.

I would personally probably replace some or all of my FoW with REB/Pyroblast assuming a red splash against Merfolk.

Fow is not great against merfolk, but when you have worse cards like counterspell, clique, and extra copies of jace you want to take them out first. It's very simple. Don't imitate blindly whatever G.T. or whoever does or says, because whatever he does may have sense with HIS decklist and HIS sideboard,. When it's you who is playing just think it for yourself and do whatever has sense with YOUR list, not with someone's else.
And, of course, pros may be wrong sometimes, especially since very few of them play enough legacy to tell us whatever is right or not. I would trust much more an usual and competitive legacy player than any professional player when talking about legacy.

Thanks for the advice! So candidates to board out against Merfolk are Jace, Vendilion, Counterspell and Force.

What about the other matchups I listed above?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bongo

Assuming you are using a version similar to the one Chris van Meter piloted in the Legacy open - what cards do you board out

1. against Merfolk?
2. against Maverick?
3. against BUG or Team America?
4. against Storm?
5. against Reanimator?
6. against Zoo?

This may look easier than it actually is. For example, I was quite surprised when I heard that Gerry Thompson boards out his Force of Wills against Merfolk. I'm really interested in what cards you take out in various matchups!

---

I've since changed my deck to almost vanMeter's list (other than the SB). Basically it's his list -Spellstutter, +Spell Pierce; -Mutavault, +Mishra's Factory; and -Repeal, +the 2nd Sword. My list is in my sig, if anyone is interested.

Right now, my SB is this:

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Meddling Mage
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
1 Academy Ruins
1 Batterskull
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Manriki-Gusari


1. against Merfolk?
-2 Counterspell, -2 Vendilion Clique, -2 Spell Snare, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, -1 Sword of Feast and Famine
+2 Path to Exile, +2 Oblivion Ring, +2 Wrath of God, +2 Meddling Mage

My reasoning is this: Unlike this match in previous incarnations, things tend to revolve around Stoneforge. If you get Stoneforge and it sticks, you will win. CA is no longer as important if you can stick a Batterskull. Merfolk has one removal spell they can use against us... Dismember. Therefore, FoW and Spell Pierce are good.

The second reason FoW is good seems like more common sense. If Aether Vial sticks, all of your other counters are dead. So... board out your extra counters first and keep the ones that could potentially be used to fight Dismember.

As for Oblivion Ring... I split my removal between that and Path so I can have an answer to a resolved Bitterblossom/Jace. Meddling Mage is something I'm trying, but basically the idea is that I run him out, name Dismember, and then land a Stoneforge and run over them completely unopposed. Might be too cute... but definitely worth a shot.

2. against Maverick?

Honestly, I haven't tested against this at all. The main things to consider here are... Do they run Aether Vial or not? Green Sun's Zenith or Stoneforge Mystic? Do they run Mangara of Corondor/Karakas? Life from the Loam? Etc...

This deck has a lot of variance and it will influence how we need to react. Removal is good. Counters are good, unless they have Vial, then it becomes tricky. Meddling Mage is almost definitely too cute here since they have access to Path in addition to Swords. Academy Ruins (and probably the second Batterskull) are good since they can help against artifact removal.

3. against BUG or Team America?
-4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Sword of Fire and Ice, -1 Wasteland, -X
+2 Path to Exile, +2 Oblivion Ring, +1 Batterskull, +1 Academy Ruins, +1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

I think this is pretty straight forward. Depending on their build, the -X would probably vary between a Counter or another Wasteland. I think graveyard hate against Snapcaster is too cute here.

4. against Storm?
-4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Sword of Feast and Famine
+3 Surgical Extraction, +2 Meddling Mage

Pretty straight forward.

5. against Reanimator?
-3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+3 Surgical Extraction

I haven't tested much against Reanimator post-board. It's not really a bad MU for us. I'd probably just switch out Jaces for Surgicals and call it a day. Those Surgicals need to come in, the top of the curve looks like a good place to look for cuts. Meddling Mage doesn't have any obvious target.

6. against Zoo?

Here you have two choices... double up and push with a second Batterskull and Academy Ruins or board out the Mystic package and go straight control. It really depends a lot on whether they have Ancient Grudge or not. Krosan sucks, but we can get around that. I don't think it's possible to fight Qsasali Pridemages and Ancient Grudge though.

The best strategy is probably to board out your SFM package for Game 2 (maybe leave in the SoFF) and hopefully catch them off guard with dead artifact removal in hand. Game 3, you can board it back in if you can be sneaky about it, but hopefully you won Game 1 anyways.

More removal is good here. Path, Wraths, etc. Abuse Snapcaster enough and you should take it home. For slower Zoo versions, Elspeth is a real house.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dzra

5. against Reanimator?
-3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+3 Surgical Extraction

I haven't tested much against Reanimator post-board. It's not really a bad MU for us. I'd probably just switch out Jaces for Surgicals and call it a day. Those Surgicals need to come in, the top of the curve looks like a good place to look for cuts. Meddling Mage doesn't have any obvious target.

---

I disagree. Against combo, you want your most dead cards to come out, and Jace isn't one of them. He is too slow against Gin, but can bounce every other non-shroud creature. Especially Iona comes to my mind. Most players will put Iona on white because of StoP, so you will be dead to 1 out (Karakas), since you can't cast your win-condition. In your list, I would board out 1 SFM and the two Swords, since multiple SFM suck against decks with no removal and drawing the swords naturally is bad, too. You are fine with 3 SFM and Batterskull only if the rest of your deck is basically counters, GY hate and Jaces.

/edit: I just realised your list doesn't even have Karakas, so your outs to a resolved Iona on white would be ... zero if you board out Jaces.

First off, thanks for your well written post!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dzra

3. against BUG or Team America?
-4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Sword of Fire and Ice, -1 Wasteland, -X
+2 Path to Exile, +2 Oblivion Ring, +1 Batterskull, +1 Academy Ruins, +1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

I think this is pretty straight forward. Depending on their build, the -X would probably vary between a Counter or another Wasteland. I think graveyard hate against Snapcaster is too cute here.

---

Why are you boarding out Swords? Their threats are Goyf and Tombstalker (or Delver), so it's not like the removal is dead. On the other hand, Elspeth and Oblivion Ring cost a lot of mana, which is relevant because of Wasteland, Daze and Stifle.

Has anyone tried to use the counterbalance shell?

If no, why not?
If yes, how did it work? Why did it not work?

(since MM left, I think that counterbalance might be coming back, and was wondering if I could include it into stoneblade)

Yeah, looking at it, I agree with keeping the Jaces in. I forgot about my outs to Iona. It's tough to board out against Reanimator. I dislike boarding out SoFI because it lets me race past a Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, who is their number one go-to nowadays. I can definitely lose the SoFF, maybe a Mystic, and maybe a land since I don't have to worry about Wasteland.

Against BUG, Paths are better since they generally run no basics. I'm not really worried about them aggroing me out, so another answer to Jace (as well as creatures) in the form of Oblivion Ring seems right. A resolved Elspeth is pretty bad for them, but I could see not boarding it in depending on their creature suite.

Counterbalance is bad for the same reason it was bad before Mental Misstep. There are too many things for it to deal with and it just can't deal with them all. Green Sun's Zenith, Knight of the Reliquary, Vindicate, Tombstalker, Vendilion Clique... etc... etc... Snapcaster Mage outclasses Counterbalance all over the place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Syaoran

Has anyone tried to use the counterbalance shell?

If no, why not?
If yes, how did it work? Why did it not work?

(since MM left, I think that counterbalance might be coming back, and was wondering if I could include it into stoneblade)

---

I've considered trying to fit the package in (if for no other reason than because I wasn't a Legacy player at the time it was originally released, and have always really wanted to play it), and it seems like you end up trying to put too many packages in the deck, I can never find a list that runs it that I'm satisfied with. The list I played against last Sunday used Stoneforge, CB/Top, and Snapcaster, and he didn't seem too impressed with it. There's only so much space in the deck, and even without the CB package I always find myself struggling to get everything I want into the list. In addition, the format's spread out a bit more, as Dzra said: the threats you need to deal with are spread all over the CB curve, and it's tough to really get much out of the package. I'd much rather just use the versatile counters and removal available to us to deal with threats, and back it up with Snapcasters.

In other news, I played a quick match against Team Italia and Painter recently. TI seemed pretty good, although I dropped a postboard game when he got SFM into Batterskull, backed up with Mother of Runes. Hopefully Wraths out of the board will come in handy here, since their deck takes a while to start hitting hard.
Painter seemed pretty easy, dropped G2 when I kept a hand a bit overloaded with threats and light on answers, but Surgical targeting Painter usually just earns a concession, and between REB, Snare, Counterspell, Swords, and Snapcaster to get 'em all back, it's pretty easy to fight over their combo pieces, and take g1. I'm not sure these are matchups we're particularly worried about, but *shrug* some data's better than none.

So I see a lot of people are dropping Daze entirely.

I can see the point that this decks wants his landdrops, but is it really safe to drop a "free" counter against all the BUG and Reanimator?

For reference (I'm pretty happy with it):
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [B] Tundra
2 [R] Underground Sea
2 [R] Island (2)
1 [IN] Plains (2)
1 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [INN] Snapcaster Mage
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [SOM] Sword of Body and Mind
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [DD2] Daze
4 [U] Swords to Plowshares
2 [NPH] Dismember
2 [GP] Repeal
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [NPH] Batterskull
SB: 1 [SOK] Manriki-Gusari
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 4 [M10] Duress
SB: 2 [MBS] Go for the Throat
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [RAV] Swamp (2)

I saw one list try Delver of Secrets:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...8&iddeck=50179

Thoughts on using him in the deck? He's a clock and when he changes he flies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

I saw one list try Delver of Secrets:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...8&iddeck=50179

Thoughts on using him in the deck? He's a clock and when he changes he flies.

---

Oh man, I really want this to work, for no other reason than I love Snapcaster and Delver and I really want them in the same deck.

I had been brainstorming something like this initially after we got the full Innistrad spoiler, but my major concern was that playing the tempo role isn't going to have enough impact on a lot of decks, and that applying pressure is going to be difficult. It has 13 creatures, and Stoneforge and Snapcaster can't really do much on their own against anything else on the board without equipment. In addition, Stoneforge and Snapcaster are both rather mana-intensive, so for a deck with a relatively light mana base, it might be tricky to conssitently get them going.

The question is really whether attacking the mana base with Stifles and Wastelands can disrupt other decks enough that you can safely drop SFM-Batterskull or go to lethal with a Clique, Delver, etc. It worked decently for Team America, but that deck also has a pretty bad Merfolk matchup in general, which might be something to avoid. Stoneforge into Batterskull is pretty solid against Merfolk, but I'm not sure it's necessarily enough. Team America also has more significant disruption in the form of Hymn, and much larger threats like Goyfs and Tombstalkers, which allow them to easily ride one card to victory.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by paK0

So I see a lot of people are dropping Daze entirely.

I can see the point that this decks wants his landdrops, but is it really safe to drop a "free" counter against all the BUG and Reanimator?

---

I think Daze has been abandoned primarily because the deck can't necessarily drop a fast Stoneforge into Batterskull and end the game quickly anymore, with Misstep gone. Sometimes that's a viable strategy, but generally we've had to slow down a bit and start using him as a classic control finisher. When we're no longer applying fast pressure, it starts becoming very easy for other decks, even combo, to play around Daze, since the one turn they give us isn't actually costing them much: we draw one extra card, and in exchange they invalidate a counter in our hand. In a tempo list like the one Drago posted, it's obviously quite nice, but Snapcaster seems to be leading us more towards a classic control role now (one that's been working pretty well for me).

Also remember Daze is a dead card in Snapcaster's eyes 99% of the time, so if you're running it over something like Counterspell, you'll be making your Snapcasters less efficient.

I've been having a lot of success with the list in my sig. I like Delver a lot, don't get me wrong, but I think his place is in a Thresh type deck. I also agree that Daze just isn't what we're trying to do. If you're worried about BUG, run some Spell Pierce.

I think jace is essential to this deck's success. We can't ride a quick batterskull up victory that easily anymore so the deck has to slow down and ride jace's power. 4 spell snare is also a must to replace misstep. The card is ridiculously useful in this format. With snaps, jace and clique being 3/4 drops, daze is pretty suboptimal. Delver doesn't really fit in this deck as mentioned above. For those cutting jace, don't because he is still as amazing as ever. I'm playing 4 copies, and will never drop him unless something equally broken is printed in the future. Also I'm playing a full set of snaps. The card is so gassy. I built me deck around Snaps and I haven't looked back. Here's my list:

4 Sfm
4 Snapcaster
2 Clique

1 Batterskull
1 Soff
4 JTMS
4 Fow
4 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Stp
2 Path

4 Factory
4 Tundra
8 Fetch
1 Plains
5 Island

IMO all these fancy lands like riptide/moorland haunt are too slow. Factory is simple, fat and effective. In multiples, it gets even better. I like how my 1 factory can stop a snapcaster from poking me to death or how it trades with a kitty.

Has anyone had any trouble against decks with enchantments/artifacts? im thinking of adding disenchants to the board, possibly removing a SOFI and an elspeth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krondo9

Has anyone had any trouble against decks with enchantments/artifacts? im thinking of adding disenchants to the board, possibly removing a SOFI and an elspeth.

---

I use Oblivion Ring; although it's slower, it can also hit planeswalkers and creatures.

Is anyone still running Vedalken Shackles in their list? I really like the idea of having it in an agro heavy environment. It is definitely better then running a 4th JtMS if you're expecting a lot of Merfolk/Zoo/TA.

I am, as I've been used to. Shackles steals loads of first games. But I do run 4 jaces as well.

I'm not a fan of Shackles for two reasons.

1. Because we are a Stoneforge deck, they will board in Artifact hate if they can. Giving them better value for their already good SB cards seems bad.

2. It doesn't play with Taigo.

1. And? Do you sb out the stoneforge package just because they may bring in some grips/grudges?

2. And? Do you stop playing jace or clique just because they don't interact with the mage?

Reasonable arguments would be for example that it's a slow card sometimes even against creature decks, that it's simply bad against some tiers (RUG order, the new canadian ********, landstill style decks...) and even dead against others (all kinds of combo decks). But those two arguments that you give don't seem very solid.
I like shackles because they're an autowin against many decks in the first game, and even post board in some cases (the mirror match for example). I'm playing one lonely copy yet though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frid

I'm playing one lonely copy yet though.

---

Sounds like you switched your list up a little. Care you share your changes and reasons? I'm definitely interested in hearing what you switched the 2nd shackles out for.

This was my decklist:


2 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Repeal
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Karakas
1 Plains
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Riptide Laboratory
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Mutavault
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
4 Island
2 Spell Pierce
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 4 Path to Exile
SB: 3 Purify the Grave
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Wrath of God
SB: 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus

I was so happy with it, but now at the last moment, I don't have a Jace and 2 riptide laboratory.
What should I do now? Go and play Delvers for more threat or not? Or some more removal :O?
Or maybe an equipment more mainboard like sofi for playing against aggro?

This is what I want:
- wog
- sofi
- delver
- spell pierce

So waht do you guys think to do because tomorrow is the Grand Prix so...

what do you guys think of riptide lab? I was running 2 but had color mana issues so I dropped to one. It just seems too slow to actually be that great. I also dont think you should run less than 4 jace in the main. that card is way too good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frid

1. And? Do you sb out the stoneforge package just because they may bring in some grips/grudges?

---

Yes, I think this is a great strategy for game two against Green decks that seem likely to bring in between 3-5 anti-artifact cards. Luckily, against most Green decks, you want more room to bring in removal. There's your room.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frid

2. And? Do you stop playing jace or clique just because they don't interact with the mage?

---

What I mean is that since Shackles is more or less a "removal" spell in the sense that it's trying to slow down the onslaught of creatures, I'd rather be playing a removal spell that can interact with Snapcaster. It is much harder for them to anticipate Snapcaster's combat tricks whereas if they walked into a trap with Shackles it could only be because they misplayed.

Of course, the speed is an issue as well. I'd rather turn 1 Swords, Path, Spell Snare/Pierce, etc and turn 3 flash it back than play turn 3 Shackles (which most likely won't be able to steal a Goyf and might never take a Tombstalker).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krondo9

what do you guys think of riptide lab? I was running 2 but had color mana issues so I dropped to one. It just seems too slow to actually be that great.

---

I've run one in my UWr list and in testing it has been activated 0 times, however, it's been wasted to hell and back pretty much every game I've played it, so I've saved coloured mana instead :). I know it's a bad reason to run it (obv), but I can only imagine using it in control matches where the games go on long, whereas most of my testing has been against aggro, combo and aggro-control.

Hi everyone,

I just finished playing at GP Amsterdam with WUr Stoneblade, day 1 record was 7-2, day 2 was 3-2-2.

The biggest mistake was to play 2 WoG maindeck, I saw 0 Mavericks 0 Zoo. The best card was Elspeth(should be 1 maindeck). Also 0 Reptide Laboratory - my tests showed it is bad in UWr, and a sideboard Red elemental blasts are SO good, you know.

List:

2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Karakas
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Wasteland

4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendillion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Ponder
SB
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Path to Exile
1 Wrath of God
2 Disenchant

Two of the top performing (Top 32) lists at GP Amsterdam for UW Stoneforge had MD Cunning Wishes with a Wishboard. What are your thoughts on this? Should this be the new direction which this deck should go?

Or should it go for a red splash for REB (which is quite good) but was not represented in the GP Top 32?