Are you running 3 or 4 Dismember? Should we start splashing black duels/swamp? Dark Confidant?Quote:
Originally Posted by John Cox
Edit: i may have been out of line to dismiss dismember so quickly. Replacing chains did not even cross my mind.
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Are you running 3 or 4 Dismember? Should we start splashing black duels/swamp? Dark Confidant?Quote:
Originally Posted by John Cox
Edit: i may have been out of line to dismiss dismember so quickly. Replacing chains did not even cross my mind.
I' am currently running 2 Dismember and my list looks like that:Quote:
Originally Posted by millerd33
Lands [18]
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Flooded Strand
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Volcanic Island
3 Mountain
1 Island
Creatures [14]
4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
Spells [28]
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Fire / Ice
2 Dismember
3 Price of Progress
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
In my opinion leaving FOWs vs Maverick is nonsense. You want to counter every single card in that matchup so its better to kill creatures on board as Canadian do.
I am running very close to what you have; but I have 2x Fireblast where you have the 2x Dismember; I am not sure which is better; but vs Aggro dismember certainly warrants merit.
Thanks for shaing.
I had 2 fireblasts instead of 2 dismembers before. Then I realized that I have to deal with KotR somehow.Quote:
Originally Posted by SupREME-10
grim lavamancer makes it pretty easy to burn down goyf and kotr. one good thing about dismember though is it's at least flashable with snapcaster like when you absolutely positively must take 4 dmg to destroy a terravore or some other double-digit power toughness creature.
I have three Dismember, I trying Fire // Ice right now in the fourth slot. My rational is that it taps big things and is kills little thing so it works kind of like a dismember but is less damaging.Quote:
Originally Posted by millerd33
It feels wrong wasting a bolt to kill a hierarch.
the list i'm thinking of so far is
4 delver
4 goblin guide
3 lavamancer
3 snapcaster
4 brainstorm
2 daze
2 fire/ice
3 FoW
2 fireblast
3 bolt
3 pop
3 spell snare
3 chain lightning
3 ponder
2 arid mesa
2 island
3 misty rainforest
2 mountain
4 scalding tarn
4 volcanic island
1 wooded foothills
I want to work in maze of ith into this somewhere but there are a few arguments against it, namely I can't decide what to cut in its favor, and this deck could really suffer if you draw an opener with maze as the only land. sure, you can mull but this deck is really consistent and mulling is something I don't want to do on a regular basis. barring dumb luck(5 lands in my opener wtf)I don't have to mull too often because of the low curve.
Interesting list, I would run 4 bolts before the 3rd Chain Lightning.Quote:
Originally Posted by wutangkillabeezonaswarm
I want very badly to run 4 of each but I compromised at 3 so I could make room for fire/ice.
Took second at my local FNM tonight with U/R Delver:
//Creatures: 14
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Goblin Guide
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Snapcaster Mage
//Instants: 18
3x Price of Progress
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Daze
3x Spell Pierce
4x Brainstorm
//Sorceries: 10
3x Ponder
3x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
//Lands: 18
3x Scalding Tarn
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Flooded Strand
2x Volcanic Island
3x Island
2x Mountain
//Sideboard:
3x Smash to Smithereens
3x Tormod's Crypt
3x Submerge
2x Fireblast
1x Grim Lavamancer
3x Pyroblast
Lands aren't perfect, but it was only relevant once in the games I played where I was low on red mana, I need arid mesa's or something stat.
Round 1: Pox
So this was Pox, with Bitterblossom and Jitte. Long story short, Jitte hit the board games one and three--conveniently the games that I lost because I happened to be tapped out and did NOT see Jitte coming from Pox. As a general statement, I have bad experiences with this deck vs Pox. We already run very few lands, and on your turn 3 when you wasteland my volc and then smallpox my island taking my creature with it.. it was just ridiculous.
Loss, 1-2 (0-1)
Round 2: U/W Blade Control
Game one I blew him out with delvers and had the daze for SFM on turn two. Game two I walked two goblin guides into Mishra's Factories intentionally, aiming to burn them after activation. He had counters every time so I lost my guides and he took over. Game three, he somehow got land-flooded while I had three unflipped delvers and a mancer on the table. Then the delver's flipped and swung him out for 11.
I was happy, as he was one of the best players that shows up regularly.
Win, 2-1 (1-1)
Round 3: U/W Tempo
Game one I blew him out with delver + daze on SFM. He scooped immediately with no answers in sight. Game two I had as ideal of a turn 1-2 as I can think of, t1 delver go, t2 delver flip, guide, one mana open for spell pierce with daze in hand swing for 5. I swung him for five and killed / countered everything that he could put Jitte on (it hit the board) until it was closed out.
I was ecstatic, since I'd say he's the best player there. Pretty sure he won GP Providence with NO FOW Bant last year. Luck was definitely on my side here and it was fun playing against someone who is very clearly better than I am at playing the game. For me this was the best game of the night. I don't think I made any drastic misplays and I was pretty focused the whole time, I mulliganed the right hands into what I wanted for the match up, everything went as planned.
Win, 2-0 (2-1)
Round 4: G/W Maverick
Forunately, this was another one of the best players there. Game one I just do what U/R Delver does--kill everything I see, burn him when it's appropriate, and punch through. He eventually got into a decent position after I had just killed I think his second Mom, but he was at 3 life and I had a Spike in hand. I was afraid he had a STP in his hand at the ready, as I knew that if I didn't kill him this turn, Jitte was going to get put on a dude and the game would be over. Luckily, he didn't, I spiked and he scooped.
Game two wasn't much of a game, he had an amazing opening hand but no green sources, and then he just never found one until he was at 7 life. He fetched down to 6, at the end of his turn I PoP'd him for 4 and Lavamancer'd him for the remainder and he scooped.
Win, 2-0 (3-1).
G/W Mav would go on to win first due to my horrible loss VS Pox, I came in second. But I was totally first in my head, I started the night off with a frustrating loss only to come back and beat three people back to back to back in convincing fashion. For my local meta, that was as hard of a comeback as you could get and it felt awesome. I made a single misplay against Pox that I'm convinced lost me the series (I burnt my Smash to Smithereens early, when I didn't need to, and Jitte hit the board the next turn, had that not happened I had enough board presence to race her), had it not been for that, I could have gone 4-0.
I wasn't sure if I wanted to invest anymore money into the deck as I was getting a little bored of it, but after that, I'm for sure fixing it up to being much much better. A very good friend of mine is willing to lend me his FOW's as he no longer runs his blue deck in tournament anymore which is going to be wonderful.
good job, dude. I gotta eat my words here and take back what I said about this deck underperforming without FoW.
There seems to be some consensus on running Snapcaster. Is there anybody else not playing that guy?
I went 3:3 with the following list today, but I didn't particularly feel that the losses were due to lack of Snapcasters (lost against Affinity, Zoo, and my own bad plays in general :D)...
Lands:
2 Mountain
1 Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
4 Misty Rainforest
Creatures:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
Burn:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Rift Bolt
3 Price of Progress
Digging:
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
Counters:
3 Daze
4 Spell Snare
3 Force of Will
Sideboard:
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 4 Submerge
@Kich: Your list looks pretty solid. My main complaint is the lack of Chain Lightning. It's almost strictly superior Lava Spike. I'm pretty sure you should run it as a 4-of before Lava Spike ever touches your decklist. I understand it has a drawback, but in my experience it can almost always be played around. Maybe in an extremely red heavy meta you could argue in favor of Lava Spike, but looking at your matchups I'm guessing that's not the case for you. Regardless, grats on your finish!
I still don't. But I also play an extremely aggressive build that aims to win very early and never wants to see the late game. In my testing, I almost always wished Snapcaster Mage was a Bolt when I drew him, so that's what I replaced them with. In a more controlling build, running FoW MD, I think it's likely correct to run Snapcaster.Quote:
Originally Posted by floi
Chain lightning is definitely going to be added in place of spikes and a rift bolt, going to 4x bolt / 4x chain / 3x rift / 3x price. At the moment just waiting for the money to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilla
I'm questioning Spell Snare and whether I would rather have it over Spell Pierce. Pierce was an all-star today, countering removal and important shit all day. It fell off late game which was a problem, but early game it dominated.
And once again, price underperformed really hard. That was my biggest complaint actually. I sided it out in literally every matchup except G/W Maverick. Upon turn 1, people play around it hard. Granted, I didn't run into any 3 color decks here, but both U/W decks never had more than 1 non-basic. At one point one of the U/W decks had 4 islands and 2 plains out and a mishra's factory.
Also, I don't know why exactly I had this reaction, maybe because I know my deck has plenty of cheap threats, but when my opponent FoW's my turn 3 delver, I got really excited and knew I won. Every time I saw someone burn force on me, it felt really good and I knew I was in a great position, especially when they pitch brainstorms or snapcasters.
I can see that argument even though I've been quite happy with the FoWs since I added them. Maybe It would have been correct for me to play Snapcasters then...Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilla
Mind sharing your latest list, zilla?
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerd33
I have a urb list I've been working on with bob, tombstalker, and ghastly demise(used to be thoughtseize). I also include 2 sdt to help dig, flip delver and prevent bob damage. So far it has tested nice but im still trying to find the optimal build.
Good catch on SDT I've been trying it (and now jace) with good results.
Hasn't changed much from my post on page 3. I've been testing another fetch or basic in place of the fourth Volcanic, and sometimes I drop the fourth Price of Progress for a third Spell Snare, and the sideboard is in constant flux, but aside from that it doesn't change much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Floi
I play my build extremely aggressively, rarely using my burn on creatures and just going straight to the dome. The countermagic in my build is there just to buy an extra turn or two to seal the deal.
When I'm in the mood to play a similar deck with more control capability, I reach for RUG Tempo, because I personally think it's better suited to that role than this deck is. Your mileage may vary.
Honestly, I feel like this deck is somewhat of an evolution to RUG. I think what it comes down to is that at the end of the day, Tarmogoyf is a 2 mana big dumb creature, and that's it. And I think the moment Delver hit the Magic world, the need for Green in that deck for a hard hitting cheap beater was completely removed. Delver is your big dumb beater for cheap now. I think it came out as a movement where people were looking at RUG and realizing that they could have a more stable mana base and better removal package while packing the same punch just by dropping green--or at least that's how I ended up building my list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zilla
I mean, even the little things like Goblin Guide telling you what they're going to draw. In the off-chance it's a land, that sucks, but I've actually swung games by seeing that card. I can't recall if I wrote it down in my write-up, but the third game against U/W control, I swung, he revealed Stoneforge Mystic with a clear board, the only land he had untapped was a fetch, I dazed it, he fetched. Never saw another creature and lost 2 turns later after I brainstormed into a full grip of 2x Delver 1x Lavamancer.
I dig what you're saying, but Delver isn't really a replacement for Goyf, it's an addition to it. Both decks run Delver. U/R Delver runs Guide as its secondary beater because it's great in the early game. Guide pretty much sucks in the mid to late game though, where Tarmogoyf shines. That's really the foundation of my point: if you're going to go the more controlling route, you're going to want a stronger late game, and Goyf provides that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
Not saying this deck can't have a solid mid to late game, I just think RUG does it better. That said, RUG is much more reliant on creatures to win, which means it's a lot weaker to strategies that prey on creatures. UR Delver's strength is having the combo-like finish of burn, which in my experience is best suited to a more aggressive early game strategy.
Again though, this is all from my personal experience. I recognize that I play the deck in a very specific way, and that there are wildly different approaches to it, so if you're making it work as a more aggro-control style deck, more power to you.
This deck sits in kind of a weird position in between a lot of now popular archetypes in legacy. I like playing with it a lot.
Probably going to friday night magic tomorrow, going to be subbing in Force of Wills where Spell Pierces are and see how it feels. Still using build listed previously.
+3 Force
-3 Spell Pierce
-- I haven't actually checked, I might need to add more blue in, but off the top of my head, I have brainstorm, ponder, snapcaster, daze, delver, and the forces themselves as blue cards.
21 blue cards should be fine actually..
Still love to counter goyf, ooze, SFM and Jitte with Spell Snare, although I reduced them to 2. You should definetly try it over Spell Pierce!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kich867
FoW are useful to protect delver of secrets from removals too, spell pierce sucks from turn 3 to this and spell snare are obviously useless..
Also, they can protect your resolving snapcaster mage flashbacking a winning spell..
I've been farting around getting some good results with this list
1 sensei's divining top
4 delver of secrets
4 goblin guide
3 grim lavamancer
3 snapcaster mage
4 brainstorm
2 daze
1 fireblast
4 FoW
3 bolt
3 price
3 spell snare
3 chain lightning
4 ponder
2 arid mesa
3 island
1 mountain
4 scalding tarn
3 misty rainforest
4 volcanic island
1 wooded foothills
SDT has made a big impact on my ability to flip delver, get a FoW into my hand pronto, etc. I at first was going to run 3 FoW main and keep the 4th in the sideboard but I'm running so many blue cards I can pitch without thinking twice and still keep up my aggression and consistently use top to search for answers in an emergency/flip delver ASAP.
Why would you want to run the 3rd Chain Lightning over the 4th Lightning Bolt?Quote:
Originally Posted by wutangkillabeezonaswarm
Was wondering the exact same thing.
Hey! So I've got some upgrades coming to my deck so that it won't feel so janky anymore. Woo!
New List:
//Creatures: 14
4x Goblin Guide
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Snapcaster Mage
//Spells: 28
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
3x Rift Bolt
3x Fireblast
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Daze
3x Spell Pierce
//Lands: 18
3x Volcanic Island
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Arid Mesa
2x Mountain
1x Island
Sideboard is same as it's been, but I switched PoP from main deck to sideboard. Even against tier 1 decks, people are running too many basics and they play around POP too easily. Also, 2 color decks are becoming very common. So far, I've gotten way more use out of Fireblast, since putting it in I've been loving it main deck.
In an incredibly satisfying game, I got my opponent to 9, he blew my delver and whatever else up with something, I EOT Snapcaster on Brainstorm, draw into a bolt and a fireblast and put another bolt on top to draw into on my turn. I untap, swing for 2 burn for 10 and win.
^ That line of play for me has been increasingly common. If you guys aren't Snapcastering your brainstorms, start doing it. My rule of thumb at the moment (after, probably a solid 100+ games recently with the deck to test this theory out) is unless snapcaster targeting a bolt is going to either win you the game -right now- I will always hit brainstorm with it if I have a fetch in hand.
So, it's very much in this priority, Bolt (If it'll win) > Brainstorm > Ponder > Bolt > Counterspell whenever I cast snapcaster.
I've found that given the quantity of burn we (I?) run, unless that lightning bolt wins the game, you're better off brainstorming for more options. I often EOT SCM > Brainstorm and grab myself some awesome combination of Burn/Burn/Draw or Creature/Creature/Burn etc.
It keeps your momentum up when the momentum slips out of your hands, and ever since I started focusing on SCM'ing my cantrips over my burn, you find more burn than you were going to anyways and you ensure that your next draws are either A: Good, or B: Most likely not shit because you fetched your shit back into the library.
I am also still comfortable running spell pierce. It may just be my play style, but Spell Snare doesn't counter most relevant removal and force of will, while awesome, conflicts with my previous point: I'm of the belief you want to be SCM'ing your blue cards more than your red cards because your blue cards actually get you more red cards.
It hurts late game because it just stops countering stuff, and that sucks, but I can't express in words how amazing it feels to go: Turn 1 Delver with daze backup, no response? Turn 2 Delver flips, Goblin Guide, swing for 5 with Daze Backup and 1 blue open for Spell Pierce.
This may be because I'm looking to keep my dudes alive, spell pierce keeps them alive long enough to do the damage they need to do so that they either stay in the game for the win or they can stay alive long enough to put someone in burn range (which once my cards get in is going to be pretty easy to close that gap).
A couple of days ago I went to a small tourney with a list based on 4eak's list . I lost against Bant Blade, won against Dredge, Sneak&Show and Green and Taxes; and finally lost in the semifinal against UW Blade (due to some missplays).
My changes were:
-4 Rift Bolt, -1 Daze, -1 Spell Snare, +1 Grim Lavamancer, +2 Dismember, +3 Spell Pierce
-2 Fetchs, +2 Volcanic Island
I'm quite happy with the result, but I noticed a few things:
- Dismember: it was useful against mana dorks, or for killing creatures outside burn range. But, as Lavamancer+Bolt has a similar effect, I'm thinking about replacing them with something more flexible, like Fire/Ice.
- Counters: Force of Will wasn't indeed that necessary, Spell Pierce was nice to counter early removal trying to stop my initial assault; but I would add the 4th Daze so that I can counter with just 1 tapped island more frequently.
- Cantrips: I might replace Ponder with Preordain, so that I don't need to activate fetchlands in order to get rid of chaff, thus holding more cards in hand for Brainstorm.
- Snapcaster Mage: I didn't really miss it, but I need more testing to be sure.
This may be a bad suggestion but what about Psionic Blast as a 2-of? It could potentially be good in lists that both want to have enough burn, but also want to be able to support Force of Will (which means you can maybe replace the Fireblasts with Psionic Blasts while being able to play Magma Jet instead of Ponder at the same time).
cool feedback. I've switched some of the counts around and upped some of the red sources and it's helped a lot with consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by markitus
Psionic Blast seems too expensive for what it does. Then again I've sometimes wished I was holding a counterspell or some sort of slightly more expensive hard counter during the mid/late game because daze can be so, so underwhelming.
This deck wants to dig. The deeper the better. Combine that with the fact that Ponder can shuffle away chaff on top before cantripping, and I'm not sure a 1 card (and therefore 1 turn) shallower dig is worth the slightly greater flexibility versus chaff that Preordain gives.Quote:
Originally Posted by pechunato
I think I already know the answer to this question due to logical reasoning, but the search thread tool seems to be broken so I'll just go ahead and ask: how does this deck do against Maverick?
It can go either way. Sometimes you just rip bolt after bolt off the top and burn them down before they can really get going. Other times they stabilize after a few turns and it turns into a frantic rush to drop their life down before they drop a goyf or they keep recurring punishing fire and killing all your dudes. Maverick isn't a super unfavorable matchup; I'd rather be playing against it rather than high tide or any other goldfish deck.
It really depends on what cards are drawn during the match. This deck really wants to have the turn one Delver. If Maverick has the Swords to Plowshares for it, it is in for a good game. If not, Delver will start with a small advantage. It's very difficult to beat draws like turn one Delver, turn two Guide, and have a counter for something the opponent is doing. Likewise, if Maverick plows the turn one Delver and gets to resolve a Mystic, it will have a big advantage going into the middle game (which it's assured to hit), even if the Mystic gets bolted (the threat of the equipment dominating the game at some point remains).
There are a lot of ways these decks interact with each other. Scavenging Ooze gains life and is good against Snapcaster Mage. As always, Knight is good, but it's slow. By the time it's a 4/4 and hits play, you're probaby very close to 0. If Maverick gets to untap with Mom, it could be rough. Maverick has a lot of creatures that should usually be dealt with right away (which makes it such a good deck), but because Delver plays a different game (put opponent in reach, finish him off), sometimes the creatures don't matter all that much (they don't get time to dominate the board, or when they do, it's irrelevant). Maverick needs to survive the early game unscathed. It still needs to be very cautious but if Maverick can slow the pace down, their cards are just so much better. Delver needs to get an early advantage by pressuring Maverick and countering/bolting speedbumps. If it gets to the middle game, you should have enough gas left to kill the opponent before they overpower you.
So in short, I can't really answer that question with a percentage. There are just so many factors that influence the outcome of the game. They both have the tools to beat each other though, that's for sure. I think with best play from both sides, Maverick has Delver's number.
I'd also say it around 50/50, maybe a little on Delvers site. PoP is just so good vs. maverick in lategame and Snapcaster into PoP usually seals the deal. Still, Spell Snare is awesome (SFM, Jitte, Ooze, Goyf, pridemage, Punishing Fire-yes I do counter it and especially Scryb Ranger, he's just a bomb vs. Delver). Flash, Flying, ProBlue...
I also like to Force zenit every once in a while, other than that I agree with the above.
Different question: Fire (Fire/Ice) can kill Scryb Ranger, can it not?
50/50? I'd lean heavily towards U/R Delver. Our deck runs burn, theirs doesn't, our deck runs counterspells, theirs doesn't. The #1 color Maverick doesn't want to play is red, we're faster than they are, we fly, and we can deal with threats a lot better than they can. They have to wait until turn 3-4 to even really start being a threat, we can be half way to the finish line by turn 3 pretty consistently.
In my experience playing against maverick, just kill everything they have and beat them to death.
I don't agree. There are more games than one during a match (Maverick having access to hateful sideboard cards that are tough to deal with). The argument, ''I'll just counter that then'' is too easy. Unless, you're completely oblivious, Maverick isn't going to put 5 non-basics into play and just die to Pop, SCM, Pop.
How can you be throwing all your burn at Maverick's creatures and then expect to have enough gas to just kill the opponent as well? It looks you're trying to have your cake and eat it all too. Swords to Plowshares and Punishing Fires take care of every creature Delver has, sometimes with value. So while I agree Delver can deal with threats better, Maverick ain't no slouch eiher. Knight of the Reliquary into a Maze is also pseudo-removal (albeit very slow) because without Wastelands, Maze will permanently knock out a creature. There are multiple forms of life gain in the Maverick deck. This means that once they establish, they will climb out of reach, sealing the game.
If you feel Delver is at an advantage, sure. But a heavy favorite? I just don't buy it.
The way you sketch the match-up it's like: You turn one Delver. Then me turn one Mom? answer. Turn two Mystic? answer. Turn three Ooze? answer. Turn 4 I'm in range; you bolt, bolt, fireblast, I'm dead.
If either one of those creatures gets to do their thing, Maverick is that much closer to establishing.
In regard to the one color I don't want to meet it's black actually. Because black is the color of combo and destruction. I don't like Dark Ritual (storm) and I don't like Smallpox (hurts bad). Lightning Bolt is fine.
In regard to Price of Progress; Sylvan Safekeeper is a great card because of it's protection ability, as well as his ability to reduce Pop damage.
I do feel the same. Always wondering if it's better to Bolt the creature (mother/ranger/bird) or my opponent. Most of the time I sit there with less cards in hand without having traded badly. Every zenit resolved is a new threat but Usually Lavamancer shines and StP dissynergieses with Ooze. So keep off Jitte and you might be ok-still a Sword on a huge knight might cost you the game (if you saced your last mountains for a fireblast).Quote:
Originally Posted by ReinVos
Punishing Maverick is a largely different story. My list runs 11 burns + 3 lavamancers, fireblasts are rarely targeted at creatures, generally speaking--that's enough to kill most creatures in Maverick until they get around to Thrun.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReinVos
In game two I can board in Smash to Smithereens for Stoneforge and Submerge for Ooze/Knight (either when ooze burns a lot of creatures to get big or when knight fetches).
I'm inclined to favor Delver in a match-up ratio given both decks are being played / are drawing optimally.
Against Maverick I prefer to point most of it at the creatures (prioritizing Mother).Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBopper