On second thought, I am not convinced. If you have a flying 7/7 you are likely to win anyway. This card is also absurdly bad against ravenous trap,which will be the hate of choice once people start playing it
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On second thought, I am not convinced. If you have a flying 7/7 you are likely to win anyway. This card is also absurdly bad against ravenous trap,which will be the hate of choice once people start playing it
Guys, guys... You're really getting a little too excited about Mr Griselbrand.
This guy is just as much a win more card as Sphinx, except the Sphinx actually does the same thing without costing you any life points. If you dredge three more times with Sphinx, you are going to find another CT and DR anyway, so you really dredge the same amount.
Not to speak of the fact that Griselbrand only dredges like 4-5 times for 7 life max, because your deck will be gone by then.
Griselbrand is entirely useless against hate. This argument is pretty ridiculous... If you're able to DR your opponent obviously didn't have any hate, so it's once again very unnecessary.
This card is 100% unnecessary in Dredge. I mean, of course people will see results with it if everyone started running it right now, because you can basically win tournaments with Vizzerdrix as your target (which again shows how irrelevant DR targets are in general). But in fact this card does not improve this deck by any means and it will definitely not be banned right after the release. Quote me on that.
He won't provide you an answer to hate. If you're casting DR, and they have hate, and they let it resolve/not fizzle, something is wrong with them. He's the most nut-busting enabler I've ever seen though. He's more than [2x] Sphinx of Lost Truths in one card, that's scary.
Check out the text on Flayer:
Whenever Flayer of the Hatebound or another creature enters the battlefield from your graveyard, that creature deals damage equal to its power to target creature or player.
So if we have Flayer in play before you bring back the Demon, he pings them for 7 lifelink'd damage. It'll largely be irrelevant actually, since you'd just bring back GGT in that scenario and kill them. Although, if you don't have enough creatures or the Troll in the yard, that's an excellent way to avoid getting burned out against RUG or Burn and still mill your deck.
Going Demon before Flayer is also just as good, cuz then Flayer is going to be a guaranteed kill. That's obviously much better than Sphinx + FKZ, which usually needed the bird first.
http://assets.diylol.com/hfs/015/e21...1312443012.jpg
Obviously it's "just another Dread Return target," but even in that context it's exciting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
I don't think that you'll be able to Dredge Return anything. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow
Also, I agree with Izor here - if you were able to bring Griselbrand into play, you probably don't need your anti-hate anyway (except maybe in the far-off change that you're against Ensnaring Bridge and the like).
I wouldn't say that Griselbrand is broken - I would say that, at the very least, it's very interesting.
Cheers,
jares
Griselbrand is kind of win more. Sphinx of the Lost Truths always got a sufficient amount of cards in my graveyard to win with FKZ. Rare occasions I would have to sac him to cabal therapy and dread return him again.
I don't think the draw seven is biggest allure of him, but the fact he is 7/7 flier with life link bad ass is what makes him special. He is kind of like the Fonzie from Happy Days, fixing jukeboxes and girls drooling over him.
With this I agree, but I'm not talking about how much this deck will evolve because of the DR target, but rather, how much the guy can make other DR target options to be subpar. The guy is pretty much a win button, better than most options that are used in the same way. But maybe the deck doesn't even need DR targets, to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
The draw 7 is indeed win-more, but the thing that amazed me was the resemblance to Iona, Sphinx and Angel of Despair, all in one card. I never played Cephalid Sage nor Sphinx, but playing Griselbrand gives me a free slot as I can play both creatures at the same time. I can screw my opponent with the other three Therapies, while setting up for the alpha strike. Ok, it eats Swords to Plowshares, but with my whole deck in my graveyard I can just DR a huge GGT or trigger a bunch of Ichorids, and even a topdecked Wrath of God can't deal with the 3/1s. Your opponent has a Peacekeeper? Just dredge until you find that Darkblast, return it to your hand, and if you don't have a rainbow land to cast it you might even get the chance to draw one. Same with Ensnaring Bridge etc. Rhox War Monk is considered a good anti-burn card? This one is bigger, and it flies, too. So it's basically RWM + Iona (to a certain degree) + Angel of Despair + Sphinx that gives our opponent a 3-turn clock and it's also synergistic with our secondary winning condition? Not to mention it doesn't depend on Bridge from Below and can be brought into play as soon as DR conditions are met.
^ .Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Devil
I agree with you in almost every way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital Devil
But from the Games I played, I have to say: Sphinx or Titan dredged (nearly) the rest of my deck to the grave most of the time the moment they hit the table.
I played Titan Maindeck after Lootings became legal. Titan was Game Over for my Opponents everytime it hits the table. You just flipped the Deck with his help, raped your Opp's hand and sent your Zombies to lunch the turn after.
I tested Flayer after Andos win for a long time and it was the same most of the time but 1 turn faster. Flayer on table was GG for my Opp's in the turn I returned him or the turn after. But I nearly never had to pass after the Devil arrives on the battlefield.
Sphinx was used by me as a SB card against Combo. Flips the Deck to find the Devil who ends the game.
Now for Griselbrand: I like the card pretty much, but I fail to see, how he is THAT much better as a DR-Target. It just wins the Game by hitting the table. A resolved DR pretty much is GG despite the creature. There are some Utilitycreatures like Angel, Iona, Elesh, Terastodon and some straight Game-Winners. This one is the latter.
I will get one and test it nontheless. But I just don't see his superiority to other choices :-/ He will just be the last card my Opp's see, like many DR-Target before...
There are sticky games that don't always fall into place like you're describing above. In those games, you often have poor dredges, or your bridges get removed somehow. In such a scenario, other dredge targets are much worse than Griselbrand. By himself he can help you stabilize, help you dredge more (or draw into answers), and ultimately win the game as a 7/7 flier. I think people are misunderstanding why he's impressive. It's not because he blows the other choices out of the water - it's because he does all of these other well-rounded things that the other MD DR targets don't. Now, I haven't played with Griselbrand yet, and I can't say for sure that he's straight up superior, but he's looking pretty decent on paper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindlash
In agreement to your statements, I would like to quote myself. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesmilord
Looking forward to more previews. :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
Cheers,
jares
Hmmm..
http://www.planeswalkerslibrary.com/...r/172.jpg?6599
He should give other creatures haste in addition to the other ability.
If only we could be that lucky... :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1
In other not-so-important news, Temporal Mastery is fast becoming the latest craze of the new set. I expect this new card to shape the landscape of the meta game for a few months, much like how Mental Misstep did, and then get banned because of the abuse it will get alongside Brainstorm (much like how Mental Misstep also got banned). During this time period, the Hybrid Dredge builds will likely be in fashion again, and I expect Griselbrand to be featured in those builds. I might just be reading too much into it though.
Cheers,
jares
hah here is your new FKZ. ;pQuote:
Craterhoof Behemoth 5ggg
Creature - Beast Mythic Rare
Haste
When Craterhoof Behemoth enters the battlefield, creatures you control gain trample and get +X/+X until end of turn, where X is the number of creatures you control.
EDIT: Scratch that. lol shit doesn't give your dudes haste. IT only has haste. bleh..
Yeah, I re-read the whole text looking for the "your creatures have Haste", but the +X/+X was all I got. At least it also gives Trample :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
Better luck for us next time. :laugh:
Cheers,
jares
I don't think we will see the new time walk outside of UR Delver. I would consider it barely even playable. Everybody's just being chicken little.Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
I see a lot of people scampering to get hold of it, though, so it'll probably be used in more than just U/R Delver (and it now costs $40 a pop even before it's legal, so they might as well play it to get their money's worth :tongue:).Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
I hope you're right.
Cheers,
jares
I find the fact that 7/7 flying lifelink demands 3 regular bolt spells to be killed and will almost certainly give you life pretty sexy against U/R or UGr, what do you guys think? It's not as good against :w: but :w: isn't as fast as :r: anyways...
Oh, I hope everybody will play it. It is just such a bad card most of the times imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
@Gui
I think so too. I also seem to change my opinion about this guy like every 5 minutes:D
But I can definately see it being very good in a RUG/UR Delver meta.
Actually, even if a deck were to run the full set, players would still be more likely to draw into a Temporal Mastery (60.05%) than have it in their opening hand - and that's not considering that a full set of Brainstorm is also at their disposal.Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
Honestly, I've never been able to play with any of the Power Nine, but I'm assuming that there's a reason for why they're called that - and Temporal Mastery seems like a very good approximation of Time Walk (hopefully, it would also be a fair approximation). We'll just have to wait and see how it works out.
Cheers,
jares
This question is directed at Hollywood, but it goes for anyone who is playing combo-LED dredge.
Can you recall the games, if any, where you lost after resolving a DR on Sun Titan? Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of Flayer, but for a person who had played a ton more LEDless dredge back in the day, it's tough for me personally to dedicate 4 MB slots towards making this guy work when I can just run Sun Titan + 2 DR to go for triple Therapy into a next turn kill. The Flayer list really doesn't work smoothly with less than 3 DRs, I've tried.
Here is a list of other itchies I found while playing the deck:
- 2 Ichorids is barely enough. Honestly, the blowout games these guys do absolutely nothing. I can understand the logic behind running only two, but when games go awry, these guys will be your savior. I think I'm going to pack 3 MB.
- 13 lands is also barely enough. I really want to add a 14th land, but I have no idea what to cut. This is partially why I'm asking about Sun Titan, because if I run him, I can just forgo the 3rd DR and put in another land.
- 11 dredgers is fine. I've never really had a problem, although some people swear they'd never go less than 12. I tend to be a bit more liberal with my keeps that involve CS and FL, especially if there's two in my hand.
- I've fished games with a proxied Griselbrand. It's tough to say how good he is because I don't think his value shows until you are in a rut and need him to pull you out of it. In a vacuum, he's just straight up better than Sphinx or Sun Titan (duh) because it'll pretty much be impossible to whiff. But if I were to run him, I'd swap out Tarnished Citadel with Undiscovered Paradise (an obvious deduction).
As I wrote earlier, a resolved DR will end the Game in your favor most of the times despite the creature you are ressurecting. I put some thought into my Griselbrand-List and came to the same Ideas as you did. I will probably do the following changes to my deck:Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesmilord
- 1 Tarnished Citadel
- 1 Dread Return
- 1 Flayer
+ 2 Undiscovered Paradise (ordered them 10 minutes ago :-P)
+ 1 Griselbrand
As for the 3rd Ichorid...I am not sure what to cut. Depending on my Matchups I use the full set in postboard games. But there were certain G1 where I missed the 3rd and 4th Ichorid a lot. Most of the games went in my favor anyways...but they were pretty close and a 3rd Ichorid would have helped to seal the deal earlier.
I am on 3 Thugs, 3 Careful Study and 3 Cabal and 2 Ichorids now to get in the 2 extra lands and the DR-Package coming from a Quadlaser-List.
Maybe I switch 1 PImp / Ichorid Maindeck/Sideboardwise.
As for Flayer vs Titan: The Flayer won me some Games in certain Matchups, where I was not able to explode fast enough. One of my Friends plays Enchantress and an early Elephant Grass can cause major headaches. Flayer just burns through the Grass, while Titan/Troll have to take the long walk :-/
But aside from some prison decks there should not be that much of a difference, which one gets ressurected. Titan has to pass the turn. But your Opp should now be in topdeckmode anyways.
Edit: Another thing worthy to mention is the case when your Bridges got extracted or you have not enough to build an overwhelming army of zombies.. In my experience Flayer has a slight edge here over Titan.
Thanks for the insight; glad we're thinking in the same direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindlash
Just a little thing on Sun Titan - he's been good for me in weird games where I lose my bridges and depend on a DR to pull me out of it. Bringing back Stinkweed Imp is actually not bad when you're both in topdeck mode, and the fact that he has vigilance allows me to play both offense and defense. It might just be me, but I find myself in awkward spots with this deck sometimes. Back in the day Iona was the go to target for me, but now that decks have diversified there's no other DR target that just 'wins you the game' without the help of bridges. So there's my logic behind building a case for DR targets: if resolving a DR in a vacuum usually means the game is over regardless, which DR targets allow you to come back from shaky games where you can't get your bridges going? I think both Sun Titan and Griselbrand can perform that role to some extent, where Iona is no longer formidable enough. And I guess Flayer too, requires a bit more resources.
Edit: lol woah read my mind on your edit.
Haha yeah the Bridges came to my mind while I was smoking. But you are right. Most of the DR Targets just devastate your Opp in combination with Bridges. Flayer can also win games without them. Revive Flayer, pass turn, get Ichorids, sac Ichorids and Flayer for Troll an Burn ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesmilord
With Titan you can go more grindy I think. Flip your deck, control their handcards und get some Thugs, Moebas and Stinkweeds online.
Grisel on the other hand gives you access to more options, wether your choose to dredge or draw and is a menace by himself. Evasion, Lifelink and a 3 Turn clock (maybe 2 Turn clock at this state of the game) is just awesome.
The 3rd Ichorid is also favorable in games where you lost the Bridges. At least you can attack now without fear of losing the bridges and start to overwhelm them slowly in combination with your DR-Target und Cabals.
The one thing I never liked about FKZ and to a certain degree Elesh is the fact that they get worse the less Bridges you have. I would rather DR a Moeba than FKZ without Bridges :-P Elesh at least gets rid of some of the GW Maverick Critters and wrecks Elfball/oppsing Dredgedecks :-)
Iona may not find her way into my Maindeck ever again, but I like her as an additonal Target against Spiral Tide, Elfball in my Board.
Edit: The more I think about Griselbrand, the more I like him alone from a Roleplaying point of view. While Zombies have been the Storm Troopers of Dredge for a long time, this might be their new Darth Vader. Tall, black, menacing and ready to call in more reinforcements just to get burned down by some Emperors Lightning in the end :-P
If I had to chose wether to play griselbrand or not, I vote for .not. and take gisela due to double flayer damage.
Which would require yet another dedicated DR-Target. Flayer already demands a 3rd DR. What do you cut for Gisela?Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1
But she makes your Zombies go frenzy, doubles your life for the time she is on the field and turns Flayer into a killingmachine.
Its just to much DR + DR-Target action for my taste. Flayer into Troll is already enough for the killshot.
She would probably end up in my Manaless Dredge, where I have more slots to spare and more recurring critters to take benefits out of her.
I'm not so sure about Gisela... wouldn't two Flayer of the Hatebound be able to do much more alongside each other?Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1
These considerations sound to me like they're in the win-more category though. :tongue:
Regards,
jares
Right :-) And two Flayers have a higher chance for you to dredge Flayer (duh -.-) :-)Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
Gisela on her own isn't as impressing as other DR-Targets I think.
Before we get off track, do any of these targets actually make you want to play with Dread Return? Ofcourse they're kind of nifty, but I don't think they do anything more necessary or relevant than what's already out there (altho' they may do it better in some cases)
Some builds already use DR with Flayer/Titan mostly I think. Iona and Elesh are often found in Sideboards. The question is, if some of those new targets are better than some of the targets already in use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Do these targets make me want to play with Dread Return? Well Flayer and Titan already did and they work well. Do the new targets fit better in the current Dredgelists? We'll have to see.
Dread Return vs Dread Returnless is a whole new story. From a logical point of view the Quadlaserlist should be better. I played it a lot. But the DR-package just works better for me. I get more stable hands (which makes me wonder myself a bit). Perhaps I'm just to dumb to play Quodlaser right and the DR-Targets help me to compensate my lack of skill :-P
LCL winner in March, 131 players:
1º Adria Romero- LED-Dredge
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8049
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Dread Return
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
Side:
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Nature's Claim
1 Darkblast
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Angel of Despair
2 Gravecrawler
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindlash
??? Isn't it right, that my Zombies attack for 4? And Ichorids for 6?Quote:
Originally Posted by jares
In addition, you are save against burn, imo.
Thats true. But since you told before you will use Gisela to make Flayer go nuts I believed you will play them both.Quote:
Originally Posted by K1w1
She is totally playable as the only DR-Target in your Deck, but way to dependant from other stuff (Bridges, Ichorids) to be effective, while other targets may be good on their own.
Ok...Flayer also needs a Troll to finish instantly. But there will be always a Troll in your Grave by that time (and also a DR since the Flayerlist plays 3).
She is not bad but doesn't make the cut for me. Or I just fail to see the benefit from her over others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindlash
When i play the Quadlazer -1 Pimp, -1 Thug, -1 Ichorid, -1 Breakthrough +3 Dread Return, +1 Flayer, i can also play two (2) Breakthrough and play an additional target. Ofc you have a Troll, which is mostly 12-14, imo. Gisela deals 10 and you tokens or Ichorids atk for more. Sometimes you need it, if you have no DR or therapies. ( with online flayer/gisela)
K1w1
Neat list. ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead_Style
@the Titan versus flayer thing:
I think there are situations where flayer will win when sun Titan could not, very fringe situations. However, to play the full set of 3 dread returns and flayer people have been cutting down to two ichorids and three cabal therapies. I believe this could cost just as many games as the flayer package wins you. While it is much more subtle, Cabal Therapy and ichorids are time walks and pressure when you can't mill enough of your library to get your DR target.
Random Side Note, I may be going to SCG birmingham next week. Not sure if I want to play dredge or elves. If anyone has any clue what the meta is over there let me know. I don't know if the meta will be more like Memphis or Atlanta.
Anywho, here is my current sideboard:
Chain of Vapor x4
Nature's Claim x2
Ancient Grudge x2
Ignot Chewer x1
Fairie Macabre x2 <---would rather coffin purge here, but apparently I don't own any!
Sadistic Hippie x1
Elesh Norn x1
Angel of Despair x1
Darkblast x1
My concerns with my SB are the number of chains/claims/ancient grudge. Also, I will almost certainly cut darkblast, just don't know what to put there. Some nice options are Dread Return #3, Ichorid #4, Ray of Revelations, or another Nature's Claim.
I have never lost a game in which Dread Return targeting Sun Titan has resolved. The card is ludicrous in LED Dredge, and it just facilitates a virtual win on the the spot. I've also (as indicated by my last report) begun running three Ichorids again. The card has just been so good that I have also found two to be just narrowly acceptable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesmilord
The deal with Griselbrand is two-fold. On one hand, you have an extremely powerful engine (by itself, no less) that basically puts Sun Titan to shame in regards to card advantage. Think of it like this: How often are you really going to sustain more than thirteen damage game one with LED Dredge before turn three? Not too often. This makes his ability unmatched in power because of how many cards you're drawing. Even if you're drawing naturally, you're still drawing seven cards. And in a deck that abuses Lion's Eye Diamond with draw effects, that's incredibly powerful.
On the other hand, Sun Titan gives you flexibility whenever you need it by recurring creatures or accelerating into draws. I just think if you have to match the two cards for what their primary intention is to do in this deck (which is to say blow the game open as early and as fast as possible), then Griselbrand is just a stronger choice overall. No matter what happens you can always bring back a massive Troll after creating a horde of Zombie tokens, and that plan is usually the one people fall back on anyhow because you run four Troll and not four Griselbrand/Titan. Also, I still don't like Tarnished Citadel. Undiscovered Paradise does virtually the same thing, yet some people don't run it because of the corner-case dis-synergy with Coliseum. I understand that, but making an opponent's job that much easier isn't worth it, and when playing with Griselbrand it definitely isn't worth it.
I will almost certainly be running Griselbrand in my new list. And yes, because I hate to reiterate the obvious, it is always nice having another Black creature on tap to exile in the event Ichorid threatens the following turn.
Been playing dredge for about a week now, playing pretty much postboard only. I have 0 DR targets main since I can't decide on one currently that I like. Anyhow...
How the hell do you sideboard with this deck? I know what to bring in every matchup, but can never decide what is best to take out. My boarding plan is quite unplanned and often goes well of the back of therapies, but I always feel it isn't good.
Usually, LED comes out in some number... then maybe the 4th therapy or a few careful study/faithless looting... I have no idea. All the recent reports in the primer don't account for sideboarding plans, and the primer mentions only what cards are found often.
I came to the conclusion, that it is better to keep LED in your deck against the most decks and board out breakthrough, imo!