Looking at the price difference of underground sea fom Jan. 09 to Jan. 14 i'm going to say no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Voncaster
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Looking at the price difference of underground sea fom Jan. 09 to Jan. 14 i'm going to say no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Voncaster
I believe the saying is rome wasn't built in a dayQuote:
Originally Posted by Lt. Quattro
That being said, I highly doubt this will affect scg/retailers, if they make a living off it, they will find a way to verify the authenticity of cards to protect their integrity as a respectable seller, if they don't already have such things in place.
Everybody who lives like that would have word with my wife.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
"Hello honey, I camelate to work, and now I'm eating in some restaurant, brb. Oh, but maybe I'll go to the bar. What? The one I was to the day before yesterday. What you mean which bar? The one where I order drinks to girls, you know? Ok, perfect, I'll call you once I get my ass out of the pub. Fine! I love you too! Later!"
^^ doesn't look like fake, just normal variance in printing occurring very often. The guy posting these photos from several "fake cards" is already suspended on MTG Salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
What thread is that? Sorry I know only two sub fourms on the site, over moderated legacy and modern.
Also, just to add. Banned/Suspended on Salvation means nothing. I know what happened with Gutter over there, it ain't mean shit if the mods turn on you.
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Voncaster
I don't think the singles market will crash this year so much as deflate over the next 2-3 year. Once people start buying fake money cards and realizing they've spent $100 for literally nothing it's going to be impossible to keep people in the game.
This. It's entirely possible these come from different print runs or different printers, or it could be random variations. And a guy who's paranoid or has an axe to grind with SCG. I suspect that actual counterfeits have more imperfections than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan/
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLifshitz
I fail to see how the difference between normal and bold font is a variance in print.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan/
@Dice_Box: This thread - feel free to sift throught it.
People who get staples and don't plan on selling them also spent those 100$ on "nothing". People who want to liquidate their collection anyway at some point are fucked, but the rest wouldn't care as long as playing the game is viable.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
We'll have to wait and see how hard it hits the LSGs and SCG and how much it would ruin the tournament scene. There might be a shift in business strategies, but I can't see a mass extinction of LSGs going on. If a vital part of your revenue is selling old Legacy staples in times where the internet is your competitor, you've probably chosen the wrong business strategy anyway.
All we can say fore sure is that
a) hoarding and speculating on money cards has become a terrible idea now and
b) shady business practices like buying out staples to resell them at a higher price come to end.
Prices of staples are certainly going to drop, but to what extend, we have to wait and see. It's also interesting how Wizards reacts to the entire issue down the road, considering "We have already found our solution to the fakes, too bad we don't care about you - get lost!" is a PR nightmare that might even get shareholders interested since Wizards is a healthy part of Hasbro's income.
Could you clarify what you mean by shareholders getting "interested" from the PR nightmare? Do you mean to say that they'll pressure hasbro to make Wizards care about the market for old cards or something like that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Ok, done some reading, the guy in question appears to have been hit for being a total ass and being hyper aggression against the mods, not for the photos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephan/
I don't think shareholders would pressure Wizards to do anything, but Wizards might do something to keep them satisfied, just like the RL is around to prevent PR backlash (be it from lawsuits or whatever).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90
Every Modern staple is affected, too, and Modern has become MtG's second biggest constructed format last year. Ignoring that playerbase seems like a bad move.
Plus, they can't move shitty premium products with single chase cards if prices go down the drain - and that does affect Wizards' income to an extend.
Yea, imagine the price of Mind Sieze if TNN had been 2 bucks online... That's going to be a reality soon.
The depth of ignorance on this topic is deep as the fucking ocean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
a) In America you can generally get a lawyer to write a civil suit against anyone for just about anything. I can sue you for being a retard on a message board. It'll likely be a waste of my time and money and the only one to benefit will be my lawyer.
b) Stop saying promise. "Policy". Read that word carefully. A policy is not a promise. A policy is current. It has been changed before and can change again.
c) Nobody is winning a lawsuit against WotC because of perceived lost value on their speculative collectibles because they change their companies current policy on reprints.
d) There are many cases were value of cards has been undercut because of other reasons (obsolescence, bannings, etc.). Nobody (to my knowledge) sued. There are also examples of cards for which reprints had no impact or the card continued to skyrocket (see: Beta Wrath of God, Blood Moon).
e) You can make an argument that the ill will that would be directed at WotC from a segment of their customers, the long time collectors would be a deterrent to abolishing the reserved list. I'd argue however that that segment is shrinking every year with respect to those who own primarily post Masques cards.
f) Commander. It's an eternal format WotC has clearly indicated they are interested in profiting from.
The shareholder response to this in the face of hasbro as a whole would like a thimble of tears in the ocean. It would have a negligible effect on the shareholder value. Possibly negated by some nice hefty sales of Commander: Fuck the Reserved List, or From the Vaults: 10 Duals (which ironically would just increase the value of dual lands).
Thank you for bringing some sense to the discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Sure, it applies to Mind Seize as well, but I was more thinking about future products.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Imagine they would sell "From the Vaults: Spellcraft" or whatever with 14-19 crappy cards and a Force of Will - of course it would sell like candy (even with ugly new art, border and holostamp), with LGS jacking up the prices to 100+$ from the initial 40$. Let's assume shit hits the fan and due to fakes, FoW's price would drop to 20$. While it would still get the sales, it certainly would get neither the hype nor would it fetch the insane prices (which intentionally feed the LGS with money).
There's also the part of the Kitchen EDH/Cube players who never play in tournaments. Demand of those for old staples that might be reprinted in new Commander sets ceases as well (although that is more of a secondary market "problem").
Honest questions: If reprints are supposed to tank the price of older cards, how come Beta Birds of Paradise is still 200+ dollars, when it has been reprinted no less than 13 times, and has been / is a format staple in every environment it has ever been legal? Alpha Shivan Dragon is 800+ bucks and it's a casual card at best.
Also if you want your old cards to retain value over X year would it really matter if it's 15 or 150 bucks?
^^ none of them is in bold font - just variance. Although these two might be at extremes of the spectrum - one is to thin and one to thick in letters (also depends on amount of printing ink). Probably most of us own such cards, some even more than 10+ years old, some newer planeswalkers with white on black font where you realize easier .... they are even not able to make every corner cut exactly the same and errors just occur, thus don't blame them for using different printers for different printruns just because you are in panic. But if you want to, search your collection and destroy all "fakes" ;) - I can even make more pictures from other cards to show you that the "fakes" are everywhere xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Barook
The sort of people who like to play the kitchen table with style tend to be the ones who pimp out fun casual decks. Dragons are one of the most played casual decks, and Shivan is and has always been iconic. Hence the Price tag. I have a pimped out 60 card highlander dragon deck too. My Shivan is a Russian foil, if I had the means to get an Alpha specimen instead, I would switch it in a heartbeat. Very fun deck to play by the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kage
Pichurez or didn't happen. And I'm 101% cereous... I want to see it, please! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ated/drool.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Stan
I already tried to upload pictures from my phone on this site, it doesn't work for some reason. We're talking about this:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
https://www.magiccardmarket.eu/Shiva....c1p17733.prod
Paid 12 euro for it back in the day.
I want to see the whole deck! :wink:
EDIT: But lets move this to EDH thread.
Pictures will be difficult to post, would a decklist suffice?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
Alpha and Beta editions of cards are not the ones we're worried about tanking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kage
Consider how much Revised cards have tanked as a result of reprinting.
Why are you worried about cards tanking? Did you honestly believe that your cards' value was always going to climb until you were old and decided to trade them in for a new car or something?Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
I guess. Define tanking. I used to sell revised Savannah's for $4-8. If they put a new border Savannah in every box of Legacy Masters do you really think a revised Savannah would fall to $4-8. I seriously fucking doubt it. If it did what exactly is my claim? I bought Savannahs for $4-5.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
The demand for the card in casual, EDH, and legacy outstrips a print run like MM. A from the vaults or commanders arsenal would hardly dent demand. Supply would be further bolstered by people who prefer foil trading in revised / unlimited Savannah's for the hideous foil abortions.
https://groups.google.com/forum/mess...o/7LkcsILjFOcJ
Should I be upset that they spiked and "sue" WotC for the reserved list making things I previously sold worth more? For every card that tanked, like ... a Wrath of God going from $10 at it's peak to about $5 now there are other that have spiked. Actually ... Wrath of God got reprinted 11 times after revised. ELEVEN. It's value went from around $10 at it's peak to $5. Including inflation and after getting reprinted ELEVEN times.
If they are still fucking scared of the list they can print cards on it in gold and say "Hay you can play these in EDH". They would sell. The World Series set of Power 9 fetches like 75 bucks a card right now. Not even legal and your looking at 75 a card. They should do this at the very lest.
World series sets? Talking about international/collector set?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Yea, that's what they are called. Had to type that from memory and I just did a grave on the back of no sleep... Sorry bout that.
How is that fake? I have same Liliana. Bought here in Czech Republic from Cerny Rytir (the biggest mtg shop here) in September. It has perfect font and spacing. Only little more bold text.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
@theBloody: it's not fake - just read my posts. It's just panic and delusion of some people.
I never said I was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
I am implying that it is intellectually dishonest to look at prices of just Alpha/Beta cards and claim that mass reprints don't decrease the value of cards in general. The history of Magic is filled with examples of cards having dropped in value as a result of reprinting, with very few exceptions.
For the record, I don't like the Reserved List.
General points:
1) Counterfeits are not good. Destabilising the game for perceived short term benefits is stupid -- would anyone be comfortable with currency being counterfeited just to ease consumerist pressure? If the argument is about the reserved list and prices, argue that.
2) Stop blaming everything on collectors. Speculation and self-fulfilling price prophecies are the reasons for price spikes. You know all the times people post on the price thread about cards they bought in anticipation of rises? Welcome to speculation-ville -- population: you.
3) If you want the voices of the eternal format to be heard, this is definitely a good advertisement of why people shouldn't be taking the vocal minority seriously.
4) People wishing doom on wotc and scg for corporate greed/insert hippie left-wing spiel -- grow up.
5) Prices are high, yes. They need to come down. I'm all for the reserved list being relaxed or abolished.
6) Stop arguing that reprints don't hurt prices. Yes, beta BoPs are still high, and have been going up recently. Guess what, Menendian's data analysis didn't account for the salient possibility of prices being even higher sans reprints -- using these examples to justify reprints not hurting prices is 1) intellectually dishonest and 2) Procrustean argumentation. The reason to remove the reserved list is the health of the format -- and that is reason enough, no need to hide and obfuscate it amongst rhetoric regarding prices not being hurt.
7) Cutting down on excess expenditure is absolutely valid if you want more disposable income, regardless of whether you stay at home with your family or whether you have kids to raise and bills to pay. The latter isn't a reason why the game should be cheaper -- you derive utility from having your own property and a family, other people derive utility from having more disposable income. That's how the world works.
Collectors are the least problem. Most people blame speculators/hoarder. Heck, there's even a website that threats Magic cards like stocks: http://mtgstocks.com/Quote:
Originally Posted by Occam
That's fair. Magic is also littered with examples of cards having plunged in value because they rotate from standard, or because of obsolescence. There seems to be less sandy vag from that phenomenon. People just lube up and buy the next $40 standard rare that will be $10 in 1.5 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
My examples of the high end stuff stems from the perception that those people have the 'most' to lose. 10 more Birds of Paradise reprints to go with the 10 they've already done won't affect the price of my gold ink signed beta BoPs or my korean BoPs, same for silver inked signed Beta Wrath. I still think (opinion), a FTV sized reprint of the alpha duals in new border foil would have minimal impact on the average price of a revised dual once the initial buying, trading in and selling settle down. I think the demand would easily absorb the trade in's, the casual / edh crowd would suck up the foils, and people who think they are pimp would buy 4 of's for eternal. Closing that loop hole a few years back was retarded, we have real examples of judge foil promos bringing prices to reasonable levels on some cards (p3k which were hyper inflated), and not having any impact on others (sinkhole, sofi, snt, sneaks, bob). We also have examples of reprints in reprint sets using the mythic rarity as a handbrake, see clique, goyf, bob all of which have gone up since being reprinted.
First and foremost, I want to state that I too am all for a relaxing of the reserved list. However, I think that people might be too optimistic with their hopes about changes being made regarding WotC's reprint policy. The impression I get is that a lot of people seem to feel entitled to be able to play legacy. Let's look at Vintage as a comparison. The barrier to entry is far higher (initially) and WotC basically allowed the format to die or become very niche (now bringing it back via MTGO). To me, the creation of the Modern format seems like WotC accepting that Legacy has a high barrier of entry which they can't/are unwilling to address. I understand that Modern and Legacy are very different formats, but that's not the issue. I believe WotC is simply trying to have an eternal format for everyone. Legacy, on paper, may well be intended for those who have been playing since the early days of the game or those who are willing to buy in. For everyone else, there is MTGO.
While certain reserved list cards would be nice to have circulated in greater numbers (Tabernacle, I'm looking at you), many of those cards are only used in a narrow sample of decks; obviously, dual lands are the greatest glaring exception to this. That being said, ease of entry to the format would be greatly increased if the true staples like FoW and Wasteland were made more accessible. I think WotC has underestimated the true demand for these cards (heck, EDH players want them too). People complain about Wasteland's availability all the time, and that's a card that was Uncommon to start and has been reprinted in two different promo versions (how they didn't include it in FTV: Realms continues to blow my mind). I'm sure we'll see FoW as a judge promo soon enough; I mean, they already have the alternate MTGO artwork to use. Another more speculative theory is that they've been holding off on reprinting FoW because they may feel they might need to reprint it for Modern at some point. I know that FoW is above the power curve they want for formats these days, but it's also the glue that holds otherwise broken formats together. A slightly less powerful/ubiquitous "free" counter could be printed to address possible future issues in Modern, but that means that card is available in Legacy as well. It's the same reason we'll likely never see another decent blue cantrip, because regardless of the power level of the new card, the density of the available effect would just become too great (so I suspect we'll be stuck w/ Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions in Modern for the forseeable future, and I think Brainstorm + Ponder + Preordain is enough for Legacy).
Anyway, the summation of my rant is that I think WotC's support for Vintage/Legacy is going to turn to MTGO. Paper will exist as long as there are still people willing to play (and pay) in great numbers.
Only a sith deals in absolutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNS4t5UCBfI
And people will always be attracted to the allure of power ...
Agree with all your points, but especially this. SCG and Wizards are in the game to make money, that's what they should try to do. There's nothing wrong with that. Wizards can make a lot of money off of reprinting dual lands and there's nothing wrong with that either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Occam
The real reason we want them to reprint is because it'd be a major step in the right direction for making Legacy one of MTG's staple formats. It continues to baffle me that Wizards fools around with formats like Extended and Modern. People like playing with the old powerhouse cards. It's fun. Nobody wants to get badgered into playing a format where Wizards has to ban every good card.
Vintage is like a look into Magic's past. Standard is everything new and fancy. To me, and I think a lot of players, Legacy is a beautiful balance between old Magic and new Magic. Modern is just another Extended, which was always only ever Super-Standard.
Oh, and of course printing fakes is bad for the game. Even if prices are out of control (and they are), printing fakes only hurts the game.
Related : http://magecraftia.com/viewtopic.php...=unread#unread
Following PolishTamales warning, one of my colleagues inquired to this Chinese company, and got this:
http://i.imgur.com/RuLPWip.png
Which is exactly what luckme10 on page 13 got as well so it seems to be one guy doing this whole counterfeit.
and the funny thing is the site is taking orders...
Dzra, the comparative points you made remind of something one of my friends mentioned once. We were discussing what it would take for Wizards to abolish the Reserved List. He thinks one of the conditions for such a situation would be the failure of Modern as a format (similar to how extended died eventually). I agree with him because one of the reasons Modern was created was for players who wish they could play legacy but are priced out of the format. Personally, I would hope that something else would bring about the demise of the Reserve List, but if sacrificing Modern would guarantee the long term sustainability of Legacy I would gladly welcome it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Of course they do, they just lied to get the initial onslaught in check. See prateta's post on page 13.Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian Alara
For now, all we can do is bitch and wait until players who ordered get the new batch and see how the compare to the original thing.