No one said you HAVE to find tower to sac VE. it's the possibility to do it in the right situation that represent the power of the card.
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No one said you HAVE to find tower to sac VE. it's the possibility to do it in the right situation that represent the power of the card.
Sure. What I'm saying is that you need to run enough payoff cards for that 'right situation' to actually come up a reasonable percentage of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
The payoff is the land package, the improved consistency through recursion, the eot hasty manland and the possible magical Christmas land of recalling yourself with TT in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
But ultimately the most impressive thing to me is the OPTION to do all those things according to the situations you are facing.
It's a T1 play that helps against those dumb decks that poop out a T1 griselbrand (bog or karakas or both).
Note that I also play 3 hymns (AND 2 TS in the side) in this deck, so it's not like I'm lacking hand disruption even if I want to burn a land to ramp with tower. Conversely the rotated tower allows me to have BB more consistently to cast hymn.
I'm not saying crop is a must in this archetype, only that it's underrated. I know I underrated it.
Fetching Karakas / Bog is nice. Being able to cheaply fetch combo hate is a nice thing to have, and Hymn improves combo matchups further. You are sacrificing some of your percentage points against fair decks in exchange, but we already have good matchups there and depending on the meta it might be worth it anyway.
Losing a land can be a lot more devastating than losing a creature. Creatures you expect to lose, lands you don't. But I get your point :smile:, and I've always been interested in landfall. I still run a singleton Diabolic Intent, by the way :laugh:.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
Too much BS (bullshit, brainstorm: its all the same thing) online, in the form of show and chimp and BR Griseldumb. After the "fall" of the eldrazi storm is more common too, and miracles is still the most prevalent deck. Your analysis is perfect and corresponds to this meta I'm playing in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Let's see if I like this list more than 8🦏
This. A way to interact with this stuff - early. I really see potential, but I have to test it.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
Do you mind sharing your latest list? I guess you dropped a few Abrupt Decay in favor of Hymn?
Yes, b/c it's not like those decks play 8 free counters or anything...
Again, I understand what people are trying to convey, but please do consider the entire context of what you're trying to answer w/ a given package. I mean, by that same logic a set of PtE would suffice to deal w/ Reanimator (where we all know it isn't).
As a path player, path doesn't stop past in flames or loam..Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
And in junk karakas is just one singleton that cannot be tutored until primeval Titan (we wish we would live until 7mana is possible)
I play the full 4 AD and 3 hymns, I'm on mobile now.
I will even try chameleon colossus and go the Brael route, f it
Talking about the rampaging BR reanimator - they are pretty light on countermagic (although they do have some disruption). The opportunity costs to suddenly be able to deal with such decks is still very low in my opinion. We do not trade a lot of power and I think we even gain some consistency. But I could be wrong - testing will show.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
As always, I agree with most of what you said here. Even then, I'm still going to fiddle around with a crop rotation. It's been kicking around this forum for weeks and the people playtesting it haven't seen fit (get it?) to remove the card yet, so I want to give it a try. I think the key is to think of it as either an 'out' (fetch a bullet that prevents your opponent from winning, i.e. Karakas or Bog) or as extra consistency, but not as plan A. Devoid of context, I'll always just use Therapy to eat an Explorer and disrupt my opponent, but if I don't have a Therapy then Crop Rotation is a decent fifth Therapy in that it does allow me to execute my gameplan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I also agree you absolutely need serious power out of the card to make it worth it - that's why I'm going to try a singleton in Sneaky Fit. Anything that increases the odds of T2 Sneak Attack should greatly improve matchups vs. Storm, Reanimator, Tin Fins, etc. It also seems like an elegant way to add consistency to the Punishing Fire package when you need it, which certainly isn't every time, but is game-winning when you want some P-Fires. It also allows me to remove StE and Meren for Crop Rotation and Tireless Tracker, as my meta has shifted noticeably away from Eldrazi and towards Combo recently.
Lastly, I played in a weekly last Thursday. It did not go well. I'll spare you all the grisly details, but I lost to Tin Fins, BR Reanimator, and Storm on some bad mulligans and embarrassing misplays (particularly against Storm, where I didn't fetch lands correctly to preserve my out of drawing Lost Legacy - naturally, I drew lost legacy and couldn't play it because I'm bad). I still think Sneak is one of the best variants out there, but it's no fun when you hit a streak of bad draws and matchups. Sticking around, wanting to win a match for personal pride, I ended up getting a bye R4 and called it a night.
I've already cut Meren and STE from my build, so I don't have those slots for Rotation, but I can see them being reasonable. Personally I'm not running Tracker, because IMO the migrange-value pressure he brings, while nice, isn't really necessary when the deck is slamming Titans and Eldrazi.Quote:
Originally Posted by gth842s
One of the big advantages to Crop Rotation is that it can be reactive, where you get your Karakas/Maze in response to a reanimation, but if you get an opening to cast it earlier, like you know the path is clear against S&T, or before Reanimator can make you discard it, you can fire it off proactively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I'll say this, as someone who has a local meta right now that's basically all combo, Crop Rotation has helped my combo matchups immensely, to the point that my deck is still viable when it otherwise wouldn't be. Additionally, Crop Rotation is space neutral in your deck, because it can find things like removal, and card draw, and threats, you don't dilute your deck by adding it. It's like adding GSZ in that regard.
What are you running in place of Meren / Tracker?Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Not sure what the exact replacement was, I've moved a few cards around. I think those slots would probably be a second Fierce Empath and a Reclamation Sage. Sage might be getting cut again though.Quote:
Originally Posted by gth842s
I've been thinking about your list for a couple days now since we're both playing relatively similar BG lists. My thoughts after a few days:Quote:
Originally Posted by DNSolver
Master of the Wild Hunt seems like a good call for a 4 drop. I'm less thrilled about Thrun though since GSZ removes uncounterability so I think I would rather hit harder. Still, Master could easily replace Garruk in my list.
I've come to a completely opposite conclusion to you with Tireless Tracker, it's possible you just haven't yet had a game where it's good. I noticed you're only running 11 creatures, and 4 of those are Vets, plus you have very little CA. That means removal is going to be pretty good against you. Tracker works a lot like Dark Confidant in that you need other cards to first clear the way, after that's done you can play it as a CA engine and ride it to victory. We've had a lot of reported success with the card, but I don't think your list is really set up to take advantage right now.
I think you could free up a lot of sideboard and even mainboard space if you put Lost Legacy in your list, it's such a great catchall answer to unfair decks.
I think I've already responded to your final point which was about lowering the curve, but just incase I haven't I'll respond again. It's a great plan, the thing is though, with ramp you need some productive way to spend your excess mana. To me, that means a focus on card advantage.
On your use of Treetop Village, I'm actually not a fan. A couple months back I was experimenting with a creature land slot. Treetop is the one I tried the hardest to use, but I found coming in tapped and only producing 1 color combined into too many drawbacks. Other things I tried were Hissing Quagmire and Mutavault. I would say that Mutavault was the smoothest of the bunch because you could Crop Rotation for it, and then it could block that turn, or it could tap for mana. Unfortunately for Mutavault, a 2/2 just didn't have enough of a body to be relevant... it was close but I would say it needed some sort of extra synergy to push it over the top. I think Master of the Wild Hunt hit my radar at that time, but I never tested it.
With Karakas, I find myself leaning towards using it as a SB card. I'm finding the land situation to be fairly tight due to the use of basics. Instead, I'm preferring just Maze of Ith for my MB land removal since it works on everything, and even has a lot of tricks with your own attackers, such as untapping them after the declare damage step for pseudo vigilance and making blocks tricky for your opponent since you can chump attack. That's in addition to the obvious mode which is using it as removal. With Karakas there's the argument that it provides mana, but I think all of those other factors outweigh some colorless mana.
Come to think of it, it's probably a choice between Maze of Ith and no creatureland (except Arbor) vs Treetop Village with Karakas for G1.
Speaking of Arbor, any reason for not including it? Arbor drastically opens up your range of good starting hands due to the synergies with Tower and GSZ.
When it comes to creatures, I feel like Scavenging Ooze isn't where you want to be. I'm not sure what's the optimal card to replace it, but Bojuka Bog covers a lot of the same territory more efficiently.
I definitely agree on Nissa, except I would raise the argument that a third in the SB for use against fair decks wouldn't be the worst thing in the world as long as you're not on my Bob plan.
What are you using Reclamation Sage for in G1?
This is what I think my next BG revision will look like
23 Land
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
5 Forest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
17 Creature
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Strangleroot Geist
4 Dark Confidant
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
21 Other
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Nissa, Vital Force
I'll have to think about the SB a bit. I still like the DD plan, but it's a little more niche than I thought it would be initially, which makes it a hard sell for 6 SB slots.
@ Brael: funny, our list look quiet similair, even more so than compared with DNSolver. I'm a bit more into TT, playing three (she is one hell of a lady), and having P-Titans as the top dog to take full advantage of TT's (see what I did here?). I know you're no fan of Titan, but he's awesome. The incorporation of CR: it's synergy with TT is undeniable, and getting your utility-lands is of course good, yet losing a land in the progress stops me of playing the card for now. I understand CR is good, being primairly a RGCL-player myself, but in that deck I at least play Life from the Loam.
Now for the list:
Creatures (16)
1 Eternal Witness
1 Wall of Blossom
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Primeval Titan
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Veteran Explorer
Planeswalker (2)
2 Nissa, Vital Force
Spells (21)
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
Lands (21)
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
Sideboard (15)
1 Thragtusk
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Diabolic Edict
4 Duress
As you can see: 60 vs 61 cards. I could easily up the # of creatures with a Master of the Wild Hunt. He seems to be the preferred 4-drop of choice for me as well. Wickerbough Elder is another option for me. To be honest, the creature-package is still in flux, but I like it for now.
Also, Fatal Push: awesome card. It's an all-star, and I would encorage you to test the card.
The sb is a mess, and will see some more change. Lost Legacy is a card on my short list, as is CR with some utility-lands.
I wanted to take the list for a spin, but still missed some cards, so no field testresults for now.
Except GSZ isn't card disadvantage and doesn't potentially screw over your ability to cast stuff. If GSZ required you to sacrifice a green creature (or a land) as part of the casting cost we'd be a lot less inclined to run it. GSZ for X = 3 is a perfectly fine play, right? Yet we consider Natural Order a big no-no, even though it can give a much bigger payoff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Sure, the lands package can do very powerful stuff, but it's far from comparable to GSZ.
I agree, especially on the ooze part. I agree on thrun if we are talking about his place in junk, but here with the ability to tutor for 2t very consistently thrun seems like an even more unremovable guy due to his uncounterability. How can miracles kill him when 2t is assembled ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
The ability to obtain an early vet trigger (with ct) into fetching two swamps for casting hymn the same turn is devastating against everything non reanimating griselbrand. This is one of the main attractions of the deck, it makes the deck do very nasty unfair thing against unfair decks.
In this crop rotation gb deck I think prime time is suboptimal. You can laugh at me but for the same cmc and stats I'd rather play rampaging baloth (which would satiate the fetish that you guys have towards Titania)
@ Brael @ Rubblekill:
I truly think that any pure BG build is asking for inevitability and recursion engine.
1) The Two Towers are some sort of inevitability.
2) Thrun is some sort of inevitability
3) Since you are playing a bunch of utility lands and some crop rotation, I suggest you add one wasteland or ghost quarter (tests should tell which is better @ debate STP vs Path) in the mix with one LftL.
4) Grave Titan is one reason to play GB...
5) At last, I recommend adding a pair or one entomb.
Few tips:
- Entomb can get you a therapy
- Therapy + entomb + dryad is another mean to apply pressure against combo deck.
- Entomb will usually fetch for LftL (but you can entomb for any of your utility land when you have LftL)
I wouldn't dismiss Ooze in a BG build.
Your lists are lacking LotV:
If Terminus + Jace are Miracle's sweetest spot, Deed + Lili is our...
Ghost quarter and entomb eh? Very interesting..but I feel that the spots for entomb are currently covered by crop rotation, I don't know if both are possible without diluting the deck and going to durdle town.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
And I still want to have BB on turn 2 reliably for hymn, one more colourless land could be problematic.
I don't like thrun usually, but since we can reach 2t so early and easily here, the uncounterability of thrun is so strong against miracles. You just recast him and there is nothing they can do.
If they wrath or CJ, you 2t. This is the deck for thrun imo.
Grave Titan is the strongest 6drop period, but with this attention to lands I feel like I want to play rampaging baloths. I mean it's still a 6/6 for 6 but trample is better than DT and we can GSZ for him; plus instant speed beasts is nothing to scoff at and an additional synergy with rotation.
@ooze. His problem is that I don't count him as gy hate (way too slow and dies to PF unless we have a proper setup going on with mana open and dudes in the yard - too many planets have to align here). We have a low number of dudes, even less we are going to have in the gy.
Ooze is perfect for decks like elves which have always green mana available and are going to have a lot of dead dudes to eat.
Soooo... Just curious, what's the opinion of you guys about my list (posted directly under Brael's list)?
Not really diluting.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
I think DRS has a *poor* synergy in a Deed deck. If you are playing 2, then you've got your Wasteland (or GQ) + LftL slots.
Those cards will give you inevitability against a lot of decks like the old "Pernicious BUG" time of glory.
Entomb is just a very cheap tutor that will help you assemble a combo. I'm not advocating for a playset, but one or two should do the trick (actually it is a huge complement to 1 or 2 crop rotation).
A deck with 4 Crop Rotations and 4 Entombs sounds like crazy fun. But at that point we're not talking about Nic Fit anymore.
I shall play Nic Fit next tourny (March most likely for EW or else).
***Off Topic***
I've been away from this archetype too long.
Anyway, I know this is not the right thread for it but since we are all "apprentice deck builders", I had some success with a homebrew build last weeks.
I shall open a thread in the next weeks to come, but if anyone is interested, feel free to PM me.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14658&d=288040&f=LE
***End***
I'll post a new Fit build in the next few days.
1. Hymn is SO good in a straight GB list if you can turn the corner quickly (Tracker or Dark Depths)Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
2. Thrun isn't as strong as he appears against Miracles. You can't assume you'll have two towers out when you cast Thrun, so he's more likely than not to eat a Terminus. And if you have two towers out against Miracles, why aren't you winning with any old threat anyway? I'd only play the last troll in a Jund / Shardless / Deathblade heavy meta or in a list with Stoneforge.
3. Grave Titan = 10 power across 3 bodies when you cast him, 14 power across 5 bodies when you attack. Baloths is theoretically more, but you have to have other things - lands you're sandbagging, and a win-con should never be situational unless it's a game-ending combo. Titan seems like the superior option.
The point was that with 3 crop rotations I have a decent shot at assembling 2t AND doing instant speed land shenanigans for baloth.Quote:
Originally Posted by gth842s
I still have to test it, but theoretically it works
Don't forget that in a non cantrip deck it is not that easy to find a non tutorable card like grave Titan. Baloth can be tutored for
Karakas as a tutor target works better with Thrun here.Quote:
Originally Posted by gth842s
Nice point!Quote:
Originally Posted by DNSolver
About prime time/baloth/grave Titan: I don't really know if a 6 drop is necessary here, considering you said you had no problems without them. But I'll try them anyways
It's definitely strong but I don't want to rely on a 3 card combo I need in my opening hand. If I'm going to do that, I would rather build to maximize T2 Nissa's, that's even more game breaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
Two towers are good, and Crop Rotation makes it happen but I run 1 Tower, 1 Stronghold, 2 Rotation. DNS ran 3 Rotation. You're still trying to assemble 2 cards from a pool of 5 in the deck. It happens at times but I don't think it's plan A. You're probably going to laugh at this but the creature I find myself using Stronghold on most often is Veteran Explorer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
Thrun is inevitability in a sense. As a 4/4 he loses to things like Angler, trades with Batterskull, is horrid against Mirran Crusader, and has a few other issues too. Thrun is good from time to time, I'm just not seeing it in the direction I'm going. I want cards that either provide more cards, or hit the opponent really hard. Thrun does neither.
When it comes to Wasteland, the manabase can't support it, note that it's my argument against a MB Karakas too. I'm running an additional land already (basically, I treat Maze of Ith as a spell slot). I just don't see the value in it considering my opponent benefits off of Vet too.
Grave Titan can't be GSZ'ed. If we're talking non GSZ threats, Nissa hits as hard as Grave Titan, has additional utility, and costs 1 mana less.
I don't have the room for Entombs. That goes double if I'm also adding in LFTL's, which I don't want to do because Dredge+1 of's isn't where I want to be.
On this part specifically. I don't have the slots. My cards are all generally worth 2 of my opponents cards too. I don't see myself wanting to discard them. Besides, I would argue Nissa+Deed is our sweet spot.Quote:
Your lists are lacking LotV:
If Terminus + Jace are Miracle's sweetest spot, Deed + Lili is our...
What 3 card combo are you talking about? That is a bonus interaction, hymn is a 1 card combo: you use one card, they discard 2 at random.
It's a very cheap and powerful card alone, and is the best card to have countered by the opponent.
No one will say that Nissa is a weak card, but I wonder what you are gonna do with her on turn 2 against storm..
Hymn is one card, but the sequence Vet, Therapy, Hymn to make it as powerful as you're wanting (or even to cast it in the first place because BB is hard) needs 3 cards.
I'm not wanting anything, that interaction is strong but it's not like it is the only reason to play the card. Hymn is very strong alone, even more so when we play 4 CT already..
Hymn is also BB and requires a very difference sequence in developing your mana from everything else in the deck.
It's not so hard to have BB for the matchups where you actually care about having hymn. It's a subpar card against value.dec but can wreck storm, show and tell, or some other bizarre combo. Those are the decks least likely to wasteland you anyway, and that's before you factor in crop rotation or phyrexian tower. Hymn is for sure doable in a GB list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
That depends on your manabase. 5 Forests, a Dryad Arbor, 2 colorless lands, and a Karakas/Maze (or both) means you're down to 13 sources of black.Quote:
Originally Posted by gth842s
Running Hymn means substatnially changing the rest of your deck.
I didn't say YOU had to run hymn, just that it's a legitimate option in straight GB Nic Fit. It's not like everyone is running 5 nonbasics, and most of us are running Veteran Explorers + Cabal Therapy :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
That's true but it works pretty damn well with top. Spin top. If you see junk flip and dredge. I've still been testing it with a Gitrog build that I posted a month or two ago. Just one Loam Dredge into three lands with a Gitrog on the board has net me up to 7 cards (i.e. Dredge three lands draw three, cast loam, cycle two lands for four more cards). That alone is enough to win the game on the spot 99% of the time. The meta I play in is almost all fair decks so it hasn't done me wrong yet. Pretty much every player is on either some BUG variant, Miracles, or a chalice deck. Save for one guy who is usually on Alluren (lost legacy is really nice here) and another dude on Bant 12-Post with Show and Tell which I have never been able to take a game against; the most hopeless matchup IMO because at least against reanimator I have Edict but that doesn't do much against Eldrazi and Karakas. :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
When I'm up against that I'm really just spending the early game striping their hand, wiping the board with deed, decaying their stuff, and getting a planeswalker online. I've been testing Nissa VF, Liliana Vess, Ob Nixis Reignited, and Garruk, Primal Hunter. I'm honestly surprised to see no discussion on the latter three. All three of them are super powerful in this deck. Vampiric Tutor has saved the day on numerous occasions and -3 draw 6 is pretty badass. I'm probably a bit bias because there's a certain degree of fun having multiple planeswalkers on the board. When you have access to vampiric tutor and regrowth at the same time it feels impossible to lose against a fair deck.
LftL seems like a super card for me especially with a couple cycle lands. FWIW, I can say at least my opponents seem to fear it because it's the first card to exile from a DRS activation. And for a poor bastard like myself without Bayous it allows me to run Gemstone Mine and keep a relatively stable mana base.
I agree here. Deed along side Nissa is pretty boss. The only thing I love more is having Deed/EW/Meren. I've had players scoop to that on multiple occasions because there's so many decks that have no way to interact with an endless deed recursion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
---
The only thing I wish I could pull off right now is a faster victory. Maybe it's just the conservative style/build I play with but it always seems like every match against Miracles and BUG comes down to who wins game one as game two never finishes.
I will say as someone who always reads this thread and has played against a lot of nic fit: builds with Deed are much better than builds without.
Being able to ramp everyone and then clear whatever they dropped has to be strongest line of play. Whatever game ended you choose after that is pretty irrelevant.
I'm by no means an expert (being away from this deck for years), but I agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Not really subtle, but how about: ramp into Deed, clear the board, and bash your opponent's head in.