Eyyyy DTB status again. Does this mean we finally found Azcanta?
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Eyyyy DTB status again. Does this mean we finally found Azcanta?
I got first place in a small local tournament yesterday (20~ players, 5 rounds Swiss and cut to Top 8) with the following list:
4 F. Strand
4 P. Delta
1 A. Mesa
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace TMS
4 FoWill
3 Counterbalance
1 Soothsaying
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Council's Judgment
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
SB:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Disenchant
2 Pyroblast
1 REBlast
1 Flusterstorm
1 Venser Shaper Savant
1 Containment Priest
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Izzet staticaster
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Pithing Needle
1 Blood Moon
The deck ran very well, and Search for Azcanta in particular is an amazing card. Even without SDT, Counterbalance still pulled its weight. It's arguably even better now that most players aren't expecting it as much.
Changes I would make going forward:
-1 Mentor
-1 Soothsaying
+1 Jace TMS
+1 V. Clique
SB:
-1 E. Canonist
+1 C. Priest
Soothsaying is busted in the late game in tandem with CB, but in that case it's really kind of Win-More. I would also consider running a 3rd copy of Search for Azcanta.
hi everyone! today i've reach top4 in my LGS legacy league (33 players)
my list was: 20 lands, 2 JTMS, 3 SCM, 3 Mentor, 1 Council's Judgment, 4 Terminus, 4 STP, 4 Brainstorm, 4 ponder, 2 Portent, 2 predict, 3 CB, 2 Search, 2 Counterspell, 4 FOW Side: 2 V. Clique, 2 Pyro, 2 Surgical, 1 Containment Priest, 1 Canonist, 2 Blood Moon, 2 Wear//Tear, 1 EE, 2 Flusterstorm
I've palyed against:
Burn L 2-0,
UB reanimator w 2-0,
Eldrazi w 2-1,
Grixis delver w 2-0,
Omnitell w 2-0,
Ant ID.
In top8 i have won with Grixis Delver 2-1 and i've lost to dredge 2-0
Congrats on the results guys, very nice! We also had three copies of Miracles in the challenge top 8 yesterday, with another finals mirror. ItIsUnfair took it down, really impressive after his second place last week.
Johan Steurs also took down the Belgian Legacy Championship this weekend.
I've started writing up a sideboard guide for the deck, so far it's covering Grixis Delver, Miracles, 4c Pile, Lands, Sneak and Show, BUG Delver, Eldrazi Stompy, Storm (ANT and TES), Death and Taxes, Aggro Loam, Dredge and Black Red Reanimator. I'll be adding more matchups to it later today.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...kgO7h6sI/edit#
Just formatting your list to be easier to read for discussion:
For people running the counterbalances, do you play them aggressively early game, or later to try to lock it up? Does it differ from when top was available? How aggressively do you use cantrips to set up the top of the deck? Obviously they put even more power in your brainstorms, as they have a pseudo-counterspell mode with CB out - would you consider running a fourth Snapcaster to get even more out of them? I haven't tried it yet but I'm kinda intrigued, the card is obviously very powerful, especially if you catch more than one spell with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fgi_88
It really depends on what your hand is like and the matchup. If it's a combo matchup like storm you probably want to slam it asap, similarly with Delver though play around Daze etc. The sooner you get it down vs decks with cantrips the more impact it can have. If you draw it late, then yeah, use it to lock things up ideally. It's obviously a lot worse than with Top, but you can mostly lock people out by predicting their plays and casting Ponders/Portents or activating Jace each turn. Brainstorm is obviously great with it like you say. I don't think the fourth Snap would add a whole lot more to it though, three is quite a lot already and if you're using it to slow the game down enough to find more cantrips and Jace easily enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by taconaut
A little thing with it I've found in a similar vein to Cabal Therapy names, you sometimes want to stack the deck not for what they have a higher chance of playing, but what you're cold to. As an example in the challenge yesterday vs 4c pile I brainstormed in response to a Hymn and didn't find a Pyroblast, so hid a CB with a Jace underneath. They only have two copies of Jace usually, so it was a gamble that they don't just Pyroblast the CB, but it worked out as they had the Jace. If I hadn't, I'd have been run over by it easily. The +2 from Jace would also potentially pave the way for a Pyroblast anyway too if I didn't blind have another 1cmc underneath.
Whiteface: I don't really agree with some of your sideboarding choices (or your overall deck configuration really, especially the 61st card), but here's my main suggestion:
In matchups where you need removal (e.g. 4C Leovold Control), why would you be cutting *any* copies of StP? Especially considering how important it is to answer an early Deathrite Shaman? I think you should be more willing to cut Cantrip spells instead, because the function of those cards in the first place is to find the relevant cards they're digging for -- so if there's nothing else that seems worthy of cutting, it's perfectly reasonable to cut some number of your tertiary cantrips like Portent and/or Predict to make room for your sideboard slots. This is especially true considering that if your opponent resolves a Leovold, you won't even be able to profitably cast Draw spells.
Personally, I don't like the lists that have so much 'air' (i.e. Cantrips) in them. I understand that they make it much easier to dig for particular cards and help use Terminus/Entreat and Counterbalance, but at a certain point you aren't accomplishing much and just seem to be much better off actually playing more 'action' spells. So for me right now, I think 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, and 2 Search for Azcanta seems to be plenty of filter to achieve the goals of the deck, without getting too bogged down with a bunch of do-nothing filter. I've been able to use Vendilion Clique to cast an Instant-speed Terminus (and better yet, protect her with a Karakas activation), and along with Jace there's plenty of methods of setting up the relevant interactions.
I suppose it mostly depends on how you construct the deck, but personally I prefer the fast clock provided by running 3-4 copies of main deck Monastery Mentor. Unlike Entreat, it's not a completely dead card in your opening 7, and it more readily enables you to win against otherwise heavily-unfavorable matchups, e.g Lands. To back Mentor up, I am now running 2 copies of Vendilion Clique along with 3 Snapcaster Magi to help clock the opponent.
That sideboard guide is awesome. Even though I don't play Miracles it's great to see what you prioritize and how you think in the matchups against the decks I DO play. I've noticed a lot of Miracles players boarding out their Terminuses against me on TES, a decision I always find silly. I'm glad that's not the prevailing wisdom. It is worth noting that with the sideboard inclusion of Past in Flames, TES does have the ability to play multiple Tendrils in a longer game. It's not worth bringing in graveyard hate for, but it shouldn't be overlooked if the opponent is committed to playing their outs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
Just drop them early game. If they counter it, they counter it. But if they don't, it can take over the game. Personally, I'm of the school of thought to just play into the possible counterspells (obviously, if you can afford to play around Daze then do so, and obviously if it's absolutely *critical* that you resolve something, then mitigate the risks in whichever way possible). But speaking in general, yes, I would suggest just trying to slam Counterbalance on turn 2 whenever possible. I run 3 copies in my list, so it's entirely possible to find another copy if needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by taconaut
Now, some of your other questions are very context-dependent. Against a Delver deck, I do indeed try to aggressively set it up to have a 1-cmc on top whenever possible in order to shield myself from the majority of their spells. Same goes for various forms of combo, e.g. Storm or Reanimator. Now against a Sneak and Show opponent, in the early game you generally want a 1-cmc on top to turn off their cantrips, but as the game progresses to the mid and late-game, you probably want to be floating a 3 and/or 4-cmc card on top (for SNT and Sneak Attack, respectively). In the sideboard games, if you resolved a Containment Priest (which btw, you generally want to keep in your hand and play *in response* to S&T or a Sneak Attack) you might want to keep a 2-cmc on top so as to protect it from Pyroclasm.
So basically, the answer to a lot of your questions really just depends on the specific context of the matchup and game state.
The 4th copy of Snapcaster Mage is a completely reasonable card to run, but in my list I feel like it's pretty tight as is and there's currently nothing I'd rather cut for it. Plus, Snapcaster should be seen as a 3-CMC card, so it's important to consider the overall curve of your deck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I'm not actually playing 61 cards, the little bit in the Miracles section was meant to mean I don't want to side out a Portent, but it's the worst card of what's left.
The 4c pile matchup is all about card advantage from my experience, DRS is the only creature in their deck (they sometimes have one Angler too, which is often boarded out) that you can Swords for card parity, but since we also have Terminus I'd rather leverage that and take something else with it, gaining card advantage. I also don't think DRS is that much of a must answer, not in the same was as from Grixis Delver. In fact, when I was playing 4c I was boarding out all DRSs on the draw, and two on the play since it's a low impact card in the matchup. It's great in the first, say, three turns but after that it becomes really lackluster when bigger things like Kommands, Jace, Hymns, Snaps or from Miracles Search, Counterbalance, Jace, Enteat, Mentor etc are starting to happen. I still respect it enough to leave in two copies of Swords, but it's the only creature I want to ever Swords. Leo in a pinch, but I'd prefer to be using Blasts on the stack or Terminus. I guess the fundamental point of disagreement is I don't think you 'need' removal, or at least not as much as you're suggesting.
On cutting cantrips over removal because they just find what you're looking for, this doesn't make any sense to me. It's very rare you actually want removal in the matchup, Hymns and Jaces are the scariest things they can throw at you, so cantrips let you find what you need that gets hymned away, be it action or land drops. Predict is also crucial in the matchup to recover cards after Hymns, honestly cutting it is madness to me. But since you say you don't like cantrips, this is simply two different ways of playing the deck. If anything I don't think I'm playing enough, I'd love to have the fourth Portent and a third Predict in the deck. Cantrips are busted, instant speed card advantage and velocity is too. I don't buy the 'too much air' argument either, cantrips are basically what makes this deck so great, it's the consistency and necessity to draw white cards vs creature decks and blue cards vs combo decks that makes them so important. Otherwise if you run too much action over 'air' you'll run into the midrange problem of drawing the wrong cards in the wrong matchup. Legacy doesn't allow you to do that if you're playing a control deck.
Glad you found it interesting! Fair point on PiF, agree it's not worth sbing GY hate for, but good to keep in mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by FavoredRevenant
I think you are one of the few players who cuts removal against a deck that relies so heavily on creatures to win the game.
Yes, it's true that Terminus is the better card in this matchup, but against a decent 4C-control opponent, they're going to typically avoid over-extending into a sweeper and instead deploy few creatures at a time (barring a situation where they've stripped your hand entirely with Hymns and are able to safely pull ahead). So when they're dropping only one creature at a time, you are going to want to answer them as they come out, thus justifying keeping in all copies of Swords to Plowshares. There are likely going to be weaker spells for you to cut instead of removal, e.g. Force of Will, Portent (if you're running it).
I don't want to spend too much time on this, but suffice it to say that prevailing wisdom IS to cut StP vs Czech in some number. It's literally only good vs DRS and that's it. Every other card in their deck is a 2-for-1 that you want to fight back from a 2-for-1 axis. If their creatures hit the table, they will already be up 1 card on us, so fighting them back from an axis that involves us already being behind a card is not a winning proposition. Based on your previous posts, I don't think you fully understand the concept of Card Advantage in a deck such as Miracles or, even if you do understand it, you don't respect and and choose not to employ it in your own play. That's fine, but making sweeping generalizations that are simply untrue is a bit unwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
It may appear that they kill you with creatures, which when taken literally is true, it's chip damage from them. If you're using Swords on Snapcasters and Strix then you're going to run out of cards fast in conjunction to Hymns, Kommands and Jace etc. Once you've run out of cards they're gonna keep playing guys and finish you off, it's not a winning axis to fight on.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I'm playing 3 Counterbalance because i really want to slam one of them into the board as soon as possible, i've won several games yesterday simply countering stuff with it while i was sculpting my hand. Also i really want to slam a second balance into the board to be able to do tricky things with fetches and/or predict.Quote:
Originally Posted by taconaut
If you are running mentors i do not think you need the 4rth Snapcaster, but in shell with Entreat the 4rth Snapcaster can be usefull because your main plan is to survive till you are able to put into play several angry angels
Though you don't want to run into Daze, it's completely reasonable to jam CB in the early turns. In MU against Storm variant, it's almost imperative to find CB and jam it ASAP, flipping 0-1-2-4 are all very powerful in this case.Quote:
Originally Posted by taconaut
The number of Abrupt Decays has also been on the upswing recently, CB can become a Decay bait if you intend to jam Mentor in the next following turns.
Using cantrips to set up CB is a bit situational dependent, I don't think there's a set of rules to go by. Against combo decks, I would conserve cantrips for the key combo pieces. Against non-combo, using cantrips to set up CB flip for opponent's permanent generates a lot more values than spells (unless the spell is Ancestral Vision per se). Another use of cantrip set up is putting FoW under your Entreat/Mentor to push through your win-con.
The bigger problem is not having a timely answer to Leovold. You won't always get to sandbag a Red Blast to deal with him on the stack, nor will you always have a Terminus set up in time. Them drawing one card from a StP is a fair trade for not shutting off your entire cantrip engine. It seems like most Miracles players are running stuff like Izzet Staticaster and Kozilek's Return as sideboard sweepers, so you don't have that many options to cleanly answer a resolved Leovold. Furthermore, many 4C decks are running bigger threats like Angler and occasionally Tasigur. Obviously it makes sense to leave in Predict to keep up with 4C's card draw/advantage, but at a certain point it seems like dropping StP in favor of Portent/Preordain is going to lose you some games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree then, if your approach is working for you keep at it, mine is working for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Sometimes you get punked by a turn three Leo and you're just on cantrips, and it feels awful. But I've lost many more games by having Swords rot in my hand when they're attacking from other angles and I can't interact. If you want to put it in 'not always have it', postboard there are 3 blasts, 2 stp, 3 terminus, 1 CJ and 2 Counterspell vs 2 copies of their Leos. More often than not you're casting cantrips the first few turns too, I do keep Leo in mind when doing so. Blast also answers Leo on the battlefield, it's just not as good.
I agree with you, they are not agresive enough that you should have to keep in all Swords to Plowshares.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
With my last list in the recent legacy challenge I boarded down to 1 stp in these matchups I believe.
Hey there everyone, I recently picked the deck up both in paper and online and have been testing a few different versions of it. Honestly so far I've enjoyed this UW list the most, it has felt very close to my playstyle and so far has been solid during testing.
UW Miracles
MD 60
Lands 20
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
1 Karakas
5 Island
2 Plains
Creatures 3
3 Snapcaster Mage
Instant/Sorcery 30
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Portent
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Counterspell
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Force of Will
3 Terminus
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Predict
Enchantment 4
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Counterbalance
Planeswalker 3
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard 15
Creatures 5
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Monastery Mentor
1 Vendilion Clique
Instant/Sorcery 8
3 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Disenchant
1 Council's Judgment
Enchantment 1
1 Back to Basics
Planeswalker 1
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
So far between playing in paper and jamming two player queues on MTGO, I've had trouble with burn and UR delver (BUG and Grixis are not really problematic outside of BUG's hymns) 4c has felt somewhat close to even, but the boarded games where I draw BtB or Gideon are usually blown wide open. I'm not super convinced I need one of each of these, and could see dropping Gideon for another BtB, or just dropping one or the other for something like Null Rod that has more applications against combo decks, although so far I've felt fairly well positioned against them.
Matches so far
2-1 VS Mono red Sneak Attack
2-0 VS UWR Miracles (At least 2 Counterbalance)
2-0 VS A weird UR Goblins list that splashed for BS/Ponder/Force of will, unsure what else but seemed spicy
2-1 VS Infect
2-1 VS ANT
1-2 VS Burn
1-2 VS Infect
0-2 VS Death and Taxes
2-1 VS BR Reanimator.
1-2 VS 4c Pile
2-1 VS 4c Pile
1-2 VS UR Delver
2-1 VS Grixis Delver
These have been split up between paper testing and MTGO results, but so far the list feels really strong. Would appreciate any criticisms or comments that people have, as I said I'm new to the deck and looking to learn and grow as a player with it. :) Thanks for reading.
You lost ALOT of matches a counterbalance based deck "should" win. Thats probobly why without top its pretty weak.
Also where are your win conditions. This seems like a bigger problem.
I usually play with 3 stp, 3 terminus and 1 council's after board against Pile. STP is more for Shaman than Leo. Their manabase is so fragile that plow first shaman give us time to setup our game. Anyway, seems ok to side out more stps, but need to kp at least 3 sweepers in this matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by It Is Unfair
My biggest issue with Azcanta miracles is that this is not a "counterbalance based deck"... It's a powerful control deck that uses counterbalance... With sooth miracles i have the straight plan to abuse of counterbalance. Well, that's not really an issue but it's something important when choosing the version of miracles you want to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Thats a very weak argument. Your either trying to lock the board down while searching for your win condition or whats the point? Why is this "still" better then traditional UWX landstill or a tempo variant.
Which argument? I don't want to convince anyone to play with a particular version. I enjoy playing with counterbalance, that's why i play ss/cb. Some people enjoy real card advantage... so they play 3-4 predicts and/or 1-2 azcantas.
Though strong, standstill's shell is inferior to miracles (to be clear: i like it and played +- 600 matches with it this year). It's easy to play and strong but some flaws prevent it from being tier 1 today: the main issue is the difficult to play around delver, rishadan port or aether vial. There's also weak manabase (you cant play 3 colors, need to choose between uw, ur and ub)... Anyway it's fun an have good matchup against control and combo.
In a strategic perspective, CB is for playing a game from too being 'passive'. It is always better to present a 'threat' than sitting with a bunch of countermagic and removals. I like the filtering part of Search as well; it is definitely what the deck want in the early game while the flipped side is 'win more' for me, under my limited testings. My current config is 3 CB, 1 Search and 1 Back to Basic. Back to Basic is a blowout card against Eldrazi and 4cc, it can serve as an answer to punishing fire as well.
Regarding win cons, I have been trying 2 JTMS 1 Gideon and 4 Snap; it works for me so far. Gideon has outperformed my expectation, and his ability to close out the game fast cannot be underestimated. I would see myself to sub one snap with a mentor or EtA.
Just my 0.02.
Honest question from a BUG shadow/delver player: Are you really able to “dodge decays” nowadays withoit top? I read the miracles matchup guide on reddit by WhiteFaces. While I found the insights very true from the matchups I'm familiar with from the other side of the table this was the one thing where I thought “really?”.
So let's pretend for a moment that you're facing BUG delver with hymns and sylvan library . Because you （yes, you!）are an insane mind reader you know that I brought in all the decays I have.
Well, what now? Are you seriously considering playing the sideboarded games without counterbalance, mentor AND search?
That seems like a very weak strategy in my experience. I've lost more than 1 game because my miracles opponent landed a counterbalance without me having an answer. If he then manages to get down second proactive card I have to decay it's already gg 99％ of the time, there's almost no way I'd naturally draw two decays before you're firmly in the driver seat.
Same with search or mentor: What's the worst that could happen? Even if I immeditely have an answer it's like “whatever, let's try ask the decay question again in a few turns”. The upside of me unable to answer your question is huge: You just run away with the game be it with card advantage or an army of monks.
You don't, you just overwhelm them by bringing Blood Moon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Agrippa91
What does your Sideboarding-Strategy against elves look like? i came upm with something likeQuote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
-2 Predict,
-1 Jace
-1 Plains
+ Containment Priest
+ Supreme Verdict
+ Councils Judgement
+ Counterbalance
Here my current deckliste for reference:
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Monastery Mentor
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Portent
2 Predict
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Councils Judgement
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Jace, TMS
2 Search for Azcanta
2 Counterbalance
20 Lands
Most players either dodge Decay by cutting CB, or by overloading Decay by SB-in Mentors. I'm on the side of overloading Decay. It's no secret that Delver decks cut creature removal or just removal in general against Miracles. Ever since Hans won Eternal Weekends with Tombstalkers MD and Jace SB, there're more incentives than ever to SB-in more creatures to 1) Overwhelm decay targets 2) Interact against BUG's planeswalkers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Agrippa91
First of all, the archetype is called Elf combo. It has the word combo in it. Yes, you might just die to creature beats, but you really need to focus on the combo aspect of it. Second, didn't other Miracles experts say never cut Cantrips? If there's such MU that should cut cantrips, this MU is definitely not it. My question to everyone is that: What does Jace do in this MU? It does nothing against Glimpse, nothing against Natural Order. I mean, you could float Jace for CB to flip a Natural Order, that's about it. Jace is not going to matter until you have at least hold off Elf player's first combo attempt. Its only purpose is to do a CMC 4 Brainstorm to put Terminus back, and you might just expose yourself to stuff like Choke by doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurst_
Elves can be tricky, they attack us from a couple of different angles and both deserve respect. I'll be honest and say I don't actually know if there is or what the consensus of sideboarding vs us is, I've had players board out Natural Orders, or bring in discard like Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize to clear the way for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurst_
Their plans are either; clear the way for NO and Hoof us, or grind us with Visionary and Symbiote shenanigans etc usually. Nissa, Vital Force is fairly common too and can be tough to beat.
I change up the countermagic suite when boarding, but it changes based on the play/draw more than any other matchup. Their pivotal turn is usually three, sometimes four, so in respects to that I cut all Counterspells on the draw and keep all Force of Will, on the play I'll keep Counterspell and go down to two Force of Will. I generally bring in all copies of Flusterstorm, if you have three then you could probably shave a Counterspell on the play too, not 100% on this though. Although CS is technically live on their turn three, there's a good chance we need some more pieces of interaction, or cantrip to find Terminus, CS itself etc. It's not reliable enough to have naturally on turn two imo.
Predict is very good in the matchup, it can try to combat their grindy plan, but most importantly it's an instant speed way to draw a Terminus. It's not a cantrip as the poster above said, it's a CA tool with synergies in the deck. As a rule of thumb if I'm not siding out Terminus I won't side out Predict either, exceptions are something like Lake of the Dead Reanimator decks with Grave Titan I guess, there are some oddballs out there.
Shaving a Jace is good, he's great in the matchup but really as a followup to Terminus. He doesn't die often, so the two copies should be enough. As a general gameplan I'm trying to not die (heh) in the early turns, then curve into turn five with a Terminus into Jace. It sounds like wonderland, but with all our cantrips and them having to respect Terminus from us, it's not that hard to set up. It's an idea to play for at least, rather than just 'try to answer everything they do'.
I wouldn't board in CJ, it's slow and clunky, really the only good targets are Nissa and potentially Choke or Gaddock Teeg. Teeg is pretty uncommon as it hoses them a lot too, and Choke I sometimes hedge G2 by bringing in a Disenchant, depends how I feel. Priest and CB are great, good to board in, SV is fine. Bit slow, but it's a wrath vs the creature deck.
Regarding boarding out a land, I don't do it in this matchup. While they don't punish our mana at all, we can't afford to be using cantrips on hitting land drops generally imo, we need to dig for answers. I know some other players like to take out one though.
So I guess with your build, assuming you have at least two Flusters in the sb, I'd go something like.
OTP:
-2 FoW
-1 Jace
-1 CJ
-1 CS (it's fine otp as I said above, but I think the other options you have are better)
+2 Fluster
+1 Priest
+1 CB
+1 SV
OTD:
-1 Jace
-1 CJ
-2 CS
+2 Fluster (would also be bringing in a third otd if available
+1 Priest
+1 SV
There's a slight imbalance since you want the CB too, but maybe it's the card to not board in here. I'm not sure actually. Anyway, that's my thoughts on the MU, I'll get around to updating the google doc with Elves and some other matchups soon hopefully! Hope this helped.
:eyebrow: Everyone calls it Elves...Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Jaces pulls you ahead, you need to do that at some point.
I've updated the original post + subsequent posts with the entirety of Whitefaces's and ItIsUnfair's documents regarding deckbuilding theory, matchup analysis, and sideboarding, as well as including the source documents for suggestions and reference. I've also edited the original post to reflect current decklists since the prior ones were a bit out of date. In the coming weeks, I'll be adding more to the history section as well as the tips and tricks section, perhaps even doing some of my own video content to address them as I prefer that medium of communication. Let me know if anyone has any comments or concerns!
I'm currently playing with 4 flooded strands and 4 polutted deltas...why the single arid mesa?
i only have a spare scaldng tarn so can it replace that single arid mesa?
It's to have another source for basic Plains. Ideally you'd want it, but if you're not playing in any bigger events then Deltas are fine. If you're not playing this extra white fetch, then it's actually a little bit better to keep it all Deltas with no Tarn since that's another 4-of in the deck that you can sometimes hit with a blind Predict. With no basic mountain, Scalding Tarn and Polluted Delta do the exact same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by jubeininja69
Fwiw if you're playing with Mentors and no Entreats then all blue fetches is better since you generally only need to be fetching out one Plains.
There's only one MU that the fetches would make a significant difference, that is against lands. In this MU, Lands would try to lockdown your white sources before they make 20/20. To go around that, in general, you want to leave Flooded Strand and/or Arid Mesa un-cracked. Say you have only one fetchland in play, you force them to have to either Port twice, or Waste-then-Port because you're cracking the fetchland into a Plains. If it's Delta or Tarn, then you're converting to a Tundra, which is more vulnerable to Wasteland. If you already have Tundra in play tapped, or if your Tundra already got Wasted, Lands player might not believe you having more Tundra in the library.Quote:
Originally Posted by jubeininja69
IMHO, the difference in percentage in blind Predict or in blind Needle is rather small.
actually, i think this deck can never board out more that one jace. It is likely the most powerful card in your deck, even if not the best in all matchups. Elves can grind you out like no other deck and you need something to pull ahead or they will just bury you in cardadvantageQuote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
i get why you don't like judgement in this matchup but it is the best answer to something like nissa we can get. Maybe leaving just the single judgement in and not boarding in the second is fine too. What i don't like about flusterstorm is usually that you can not hande cradle which makes it easiert for them to play around flusterstorm, but of course that would make them put more creatures on the battlefield which likely is ok for us. I will try that too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
WhiteFaces, what is your Opinion on Monastery Mentor and why do you prefer Entreat in the Maindeck?
Read this :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wurst_
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...8TsiySJOQ/edit
Can someone send me an invite to the discord chat? My chat name is snowfall1186. Thanks!
Hey!Quote:
Originally Posted by wweenieking
https://discord.gg/e2G7mRG
Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefanogs
Don't have much experience with Miracles, either pre or post top ban, but took the below list to a weekly tournament last Saturday and went 4-0 with it, beating Eldrazi, Abzan Pox and 2 Czech Pile
3 Monastery Mentor
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 JTMS
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
3 Terminus
4 Force of Will
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Counterbalance
3 Search for Azcanta
4 Island
1 Plains
2 Volc Island
3 Tundra
9 Fetchlands
1 Karakas
SB
1 REB
2 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disenchant (could not find wear/tear's)
2 Rest in Peace
1 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Didn't write down notes about the tournament so won't go into huge detail on the report, but i'll give some synopsis
Czech Pile l 2-0
Both games felt pretty easy, and while my opponent is someone I know well and a good magic player, he's just gotten into Legacy recently and wasn't playing optimally. That aside, nothing in the deck aside from JTMS and DRS felt like a threat to the deck. Game one he had a t1 DRS which I couldn't get rid of until I was at 10 ish life (couldn't find a plow or terminus or judgment), but nothing else from him hit the board with counterbalance getting some nice blind hits as well as some set up ones with brainstorm. Search for Azcanta ran away with the game once it flipped. Game two felt very similar, with pyroblast getting rid of his early JTMS and Search for Azcanta outvaluing him enough for Mentor + friends to take the game. The one time he was able to land a Leovold, I karakased it and then Vclique'd it away.
Eldrazi 2-1
Game one he was on the play, and I had kept double force double blue card, so of course he's got tomb into t1 chalice on 1, turn two chalice on 1. By the time I was drawing my second card of the game, i was already out of gas. Wasn't a blistering quick game, but I could not catch up.
Game two he kept a slow hand, and i've brought in the 2 disenchants and ceremonious rejection for the 3 counterbalances. His turn 2 chalice was immediately disenchanted, and I was able to out tempo him early by plow/snap/plowing his dudes when he was trying to equip to to Jitte, as he didn't have enough lands to play more guys in those turns allowing me to stabilize and win with the Vclique I had played earlier.
Game three was very lucky I think. I had 2 plow in my opening hand so his turn 2 TKS didn't run away with the game, and a timely terminus stopped me from taking ten to the face midgame. I then hit ceremonious rejection a few turns later with a snapcaster in hand to stop two more TKS's tutored up with Eye of Ugin, with a mentor on board, and was able to close the game out before Eye outvalued me.
Pox 2-0
This did not feel like a terrible matchup, though it's not one i've played before with Miracles. Saved FoW for his smallpox's, got rid of Lotv's with Judgment's and EExplosives, and was able to close the games out with mentors and JTMS. Also had some lucky blind counterbalance hits which was nice. Search for Az was very nice here helping me to filter away what I didn't need depending on the type of disruption he was presenting (land destruction vs hand disruption)
Czech Pile 2-1
Much more experienced Czech Pile player, all the games were super tight and a lot of fun. Lost game 1 to DRS and Stryx's after again being unable to find an early plow for it. Games two and three the REB/Pyro's, 2 RiP's and Gideon came in, all of them doing a lot of work. Game two RIP stalled his value plan long enough for me to stabilize and Pyro stopped his Jace immediately, and game 3 he was unable to deal with the knight ally token army and ended up showing me two Pyro's/REB's in his hand after the game.
All in all, the list felt very solid (though I did feel very lucky to win that Eldrazi matchup). The only thing I was unhappy about was how poorly counterbalance and search for azcanta play with Engineered explosives, primarily in the Czech pile matchup. EE being able to get rid of any of their threats (and potentially multiple strix's/snapcasters) is not something I'm cutting. but I feel like losing to strix/snapcaster beats is one of the easier ways to lose to Czech pile if you can't find a terminus, as you're not wasting a plow on those. That said, you're also shooting yourself in the foot if you've got your enchantments in play. Unfortunately it doesn't seem like there's a better alternative...
Also going to be adding a second ceremonious rejection to the board. Feel like it's needed in my meta. The eldrazi player is a constant and the pox player is 90% of the time on MUD. I should probably be playing a third one tbh...
I'll just be upfront about it: dislike your list. To be specific, I believe that the theoretical backing is coming from Itsunfair: you Need certain amount of cantrips to stabilize your draws, as well as making your land drop on turns. I can imagine that you will run into openings in which you rely heavily on Search to find your land. If Search did not resolve or gets decay asap, you might get stuck on 2 lands. I would recommend to add either 2 Predict or 2 Portent to boost your cantrip count, -2 Clique.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuuri117
I know that I have seen this exact 3 CB 3 Search setup from somewhere else, but I don't think I have ever seen 3 CB 3 Search 2 Clique. Clique is probably better off coming from SB, if at all.