[Primer] UB Death's Shadow

There's no way obosh is the direction shadow is going. show us wins in stream/YouTube if you think otherwise. this deck is a combo killer hedging into free and cheap interaction plus a fast clock. it was said earlier that it has essentially the lowest mean cmc and it got results earlier for that reason which means that deviating is just moving to a worse version or a different deck. save any grind for the board.

Concerning snoko what do y'all think of a mb 2 berserk, sb sylvan library/abrupt decay deck? still hedging the cheap cmc configuration as stated. also what is your threat configuration at this point? especially if youre excluding delver what is the replacement? maybe goyf in green but that's 2 cmc

Not much of a deck left if you cut Delver as they never replaced DRS with a generically playable black 1-drop. Look at the amount of duals in the deck and understand that aggressive mana base without getting ahead on board early to discourage retaliatory on-the-draw Wasteland from opponent is a bad place to be.

Higher risk to rely on off-core (non-UB) openers like Hexdrinker or Reclaimer (or the mana dudes, who alongside Shadow isn’t a great combo), since they’re much slower, and Shadow doesn’t really work with any lands-based effects all that well (for Reclaimer). When it comes to playing as hard as possible into Ice-Fang/Strix/Snapcaster, few creatures can compete with the failure rate of Goyf and Goose.

The best conventional list with BUG would look something like:
4x BS
4x FoW
4x Daze
4x Ponder
4x Thoughtseize (20 slots)

2x FoN
2x Decay
2x Berserk
2x Library
4x Delver
4x Shadow
2x Gurmag (18 slots)

1x Bayou
1x Trop
1x Sea
1x shock-Trop
2x shock-Sea
8x Fetch
4x Wasteland (18 slots)

Pick your last 4 slots, but know that 4x Wraith locks you into mid & late game irrelevance (also it antagonizes Library) and going for PWs or Bobs or Bitterblossoms have their own issues (namely further undermining Daze as game goes longer on back of green use). At no point will anything you’re suggesting change the fact that you’ll be playing sorc-speed summoning sick threats into an Oko, but Library will help against Plow (as long as Wraiths aren’t contaminating that strategy).

Ya I didn't think cutting the delvers was great but the previous comments were suggesting the cut which confused me. My thoughts towards the green splash was to definitely stay as close to the u/b base as possible with just 2 berserk (taking a lesson from modern's femur battle rage) and maybe a couple decay but dismember in that slot still seems great. Then post board adapt into the flexibility of library (which I learned to love combatting StP playing Marit lages) and the decays. Any other green cards that work towards this idea?
Excellent response thank you.

Really quickly on the history of Shadow, it was a legacy deck before a modern one, and also before Battle Rage was printed. It’s important to escape the modern mindset and recognize that Berserk is just as important as a removal spell that ramps down life total. This style of approaching the life loss engine as a constantly shifting puzzle is the key to playing green; it’s not about linearly losing all the life you can, just for the sake of losing life.

The best thing you could probably do with the last four slots are Oko full of Bitterblossom [no Wraith], even if they antagonize the Daze plan. The SB cards green gives you are Return to Nature, Leovold, Veil, Trophy (not more Decay, these ones disrupt lands), and potentially Carpet. As far as the maindeck goes, you don’t really want to go above 4 green cards (Library and Berserk 2-ofs), but you probably lose more than you gain by skipping the 2x Decay. Point there being that there are no more green cards you’d want in the maindeck until DRS (or something really similar) returns.

A really good way to assess cards is asking yourself if they replace what Probe and DRS did: consistency, optional life loss, turn 1 threat, mana security, life gain, anti-GY. If this doesn’t make sense, I would suggest sleeving up the banned version and playing informal games as this will tell you the why these are the priorities of current construction.

Here’s something close enough to classic [as a non-Stifle build]:
4x BS
4x Ponder
4x Probe
4x Daze
4x FoW
4x Seize (24)

4x Delver
4x Shadow
4x DRS
1x Gurmag (13) [option to make another cut, potentially down to 16 lands to get #2]

2x Library
2x Decay
2x Berserk (6)

3x Wasteland
8x Fetch
3/3 split duals and shock duals (17)

Delver is terrible in this deck. It really is and this is no exaggeration. In all my games with this deck I've very rarely ever won on the back of Delvers. The best it does is absorb Plows for Shadows, which it will only do as long as your opponent blindly Plows the first thing they see without knowing the matchup well enough, and pitch to Force. It has no synergy with Shadow whatsoever. When Shadow is good, Delver is almost never needed to win. When Shadow is bad, Delver won't carry you on its own in a deck that does everything to maximize Shadow and nothing to maximize Delver.

In this deck Delver is a million times worse than Shadow and Angler. And when compared to other Delver decks it is a million times worse in Shadow than it is in decks with 5 Bolts, Pyromancers, Arcanists and maindeck Borrowers as well as more instants/sorceries in general thanks to Street Wraith. It's outclassed in everything it tries to do in this deck. We don't have DRS or any other obvious replacement available to us, but that doesn't mean that Delver is the next best thing to fill those last 4 slots. I'm still experimenting with different things in those slots and most of them have been better than Delver already.


I do like the idea to play green for Berzerk and I've been testing it a decent amount, though ultimately I've always found it to look better than it actually plays out in practise. In theory Berzerk looks like a hybrid between a pseudo-Dismember and a one-shot kill through problematic blockers, which is incredible. However, it's very unreliable at either of those jobs. As a removal spell it's much better on defense than on offense... and Shadow is inherently a deck that will be the aggressor in all matchups where creature removal spells are needed, because we're basically unable to play defense due to our auto-lifeloss. And if you're trying to use it as a one-shot kill you have to ask yourselves in what matchups that's even good. Against combo you don't need it, you'd rather stick with a solid UB mana base and take that one extra turn to kill them after you've disrupted them. The real reason to play Berzerk is against Strik/Coatl/TNN and last time I checked all the decks playing those also have 4 Plows (in addition to Decays in most cases), which make Berzerk really bad.

I still think the idea is viable, but you have to deal with the fact that your deck loses a good amount of consistency in its primary gameplan. Looking at Fox's list above it's apparent that it's impossible to accomodate all the lands you'd want to have in the deck, for instance. In terms of colors you probably want exactly one UG and one BG land, but that makes it impossible to play both as both a regular and a shock dual. That would require 4 green sources minimum, which is plain terrible in a Hymn + Daze deck. The best you can do is probably 9 fetch, 1 usea, 2 grave plus either Tropical plus Overgrown Tomb or Breeding Pool plus Bayou.

I'm also worried about the lack of life loss in that list given that Wraith is not a part of the deck. Berzerk is at its best if you actually one-shot them through a 1 thoughness blocker with it, so you need enough control over your life points. No Dismember/Snuff and no Wraith is questionable at least. I do realize that those cards are often bad mid to late game, but honestly if you decide to register Death's Shadows you just deal with that. You'd rather draw risky or even dead cards in the lategame sometimes than not maximize the one thing that gives your deck a niche in the metagame, which is play large threats for one mana as early as possible.

What cards are you trying out instead of Delver? This deck is built on pure efficiency, playing 5/5's, 9/9's, and sometimes 3/4's (reanimate Street Wraith) for one black mana. Delver is the next best efficient threat in these colors that you can play to provide early pressure. You can't play Shadow or Gurmag t1, so you need something to get the ball rolling besides a Thoughtseize or cantrip. You need to be killing them faster than you kill yourself or the deck just flops. Cutting delver would likely be the worst thing you could possibly do, in my humble opinion.

Regarding Berserk and a green splash: I've wanted to try it, but it doesn't reliably do what you want. Your removal ends up being less efficient (Decay instead of Push/Dismember/Snuff Out) and your 1-2 Berserks are rarely seen in most games. Sylvan Library is amazing but again not as efficient as a couple more cantrips like Preordain. I think the correct splash color, if there is one, is red for Lightning Bolts. It provides removal to clear blockers and reach, making the deck more aggressive. I probably wouldn't play Temur Battle Rage over something much more useful like Abrade or Pyroblast. You don't need a 'combo' to race other combo decks, you're already favored with Thoughtseize/Daze/Force of Will/Force of Negation/sideboard Hymns. I tried playing Stifle-Dreadnought with this deck, cutting Delvers. It ended up being worse due to being weaker to opposing blue-stew decks and being about the same against the combo decks, so no gain while also having additional 'bad' cards like Stifle. It ended up being a net loss in function.

One thing I've been curious to try is to play a full set of Brazen Borrower instead of Delver. It isn't as efficient but adds a ton of utility, especially against Planeswalkers and Chalice of the Void. Being at instant speed lets you keep up interaction and still play it out as a threat EOT. It hits as hard as Delver, has the same evasion, it's just not as good as Delver on-curve.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

What cards are you trying out instead of Delver? This deck is built on pure efficiency, playing 5/5's, 9/9's, and sometimes 3/4's (reanimate Street Wraith) for one black mana. Delver is the next best efficient threat in these colors that you can play to provide early pressure. You can't play Shadow or Gurmag t1, so you need something to get the ball rolling besides a Thoughtseize or cantrip. You need to be killing them faster than you kill yourself or the deck just flops. Cutting delver would likely be the worst thing you could possibly do, in my humble opinion.

Regarding Berserk and a green splash: I've wanted to try it, but it doesn't reliably do what you want. Your removal ends up being less efficient (Decay instead of Push/Dismember/Snuff Out) and your 1-2 Berserks are rarely seen in most games. Sylvan Library is amazing but again not as efficient as a couple more cantrips like Preordain. I think the correct splash color, if there is one, is red for Lightning Bolts. It provides removal to clear blockers and reach, making the deck more aggressive. I probably wouldn't play Temur Battle Rage over something much more useful like Abrade or Pyroblast. You don't need a 'combo' to race other combo decks, you're already favored with Thoughtseize/Daze/Force of Will/Force of Negation/sideboard Hymns. I tried playing Stifle-Dreadnought with this deck, cutting Delvers. It ended up being worse due to being weaker to opposing blue-stew decks and being about the same against the combo decks, so no gain while also having additional 'bad' cards like Stifle. It ended up being a net loss in function.

One thing I've been curious to try is to play a full set of Brazen Borrower instead of Delver. It isn't as efficient but adds a ton of utility, especially against Planeswalkers and Chalice of the Void. Being at instant speed lets you keep up interaction and still play it out as a threat EOT. It hits as hard as Delver, has the same evasion, it's just not as good as Delver on-curve.

---

I like borrower as an idea. It is a pretty tempo-y card, and has good synergy with Thoughtseize.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

First let me state that I really like Delver in this deck. The point is to get them dead, and I really like that early Delver makes early Daze / Wasteland / Thoughtseize better just by existing. I agree that it almost never wins the game as a threat, but I almost always find myself trading early cards favorably only to drop Big Boy threats turns 3-4 and winning from there. So I wouldn't cut it.

That said, for a while I did consider Preordain over it directly and going to 12 cantrips. Ponder and Preordain are basically everything you want to be doing in the first 3 turns:

- fueling Angler delve
- finding cards that lower your life total for Shadow
- finding cards that protect your Angler / Shadow
- finding sideboard cards to answer specific issues
- still pitches to Forces

This is also a lot of what Ben Friedman was trying to do with flippy Jace except it digs better for less mana and is harder to trade with for value.

I also don't like the random 3 drops of Nemesis / Borrower / Clique. 3 Mana takes forever in this deck. By the time I have 3 on the board I want to be doing like Thoughtseize into 2x 6/6 Shadow. Honestly I would rather start testing Gargoyle before playing a 3 drop. Or a 3rd Angler.

Disclaimer* I also cut the 2x Force of Negation and 2x Reanimate for a full set of Hymn. So my Delver is slightly weaker than the stock list since I can't rebuy them. Delver might be better with Reanimate but I think that card is a brick too often to justify playing it. But Gargoyle might be better after Hymn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maximus

First let me state that I really like Delver in this deck. The point is to get them dead, and I really like that early Delver makes early Daze / Wasteland / Thoughtseize better just by existing. I agree that it almost never wins the game as a threat, but I almost always find myself trading early cards favorably only to drop Big Boy threats turns 3-4 and winning from there. So I wouldn't cut it.

That said, for a while I did consider Preordain over it directly and going to 12 cantrips. Ponder and Preordain are basically everything you want to be doing in the first 3 turns:

- fueling Angler delve
- finding cards that lower your life total for Shadow
- finding cards that protect your Angler / Shadow
- finding sideboard cards to answer specific issues
- still pitches to Forces

This is also a lot of what Ben Friedman was trying to do with flippy Jace except it digs better for less mana and is harder to trade with for value.

I also don't like the random 3 drops of Nemesis / Borrower / Clique. 3 Mana takes forever in this deck. By the time I have 3 on the board I want to be doing like Thoughtseize into 2x 6/6 Shadow. Honestly I would rather start testing Gargoyle before playing a 3 drop. Or a 3rd Angler.

Disclaimer* I also cut the 2x Force of Negation and 2x Reanimate for a full set of Hymn. So my Delver is slightly weaker than the stock list since I can't rebuy them. Delver might be better with Reanimate but I think that card is a brick too often to justify playing it. But Gargoyle might be better after Hymn.

---

Flippy jace was played because it's card advantage, you can't really compare it to preordain.
I kind of agree about 3drops (at least in the maindeck) borrower might be ok because it at least does something at 2 mana.
Delver is very rarely a reanimate target anyway so I don't think that's much of a consideration.

Overall one thing I dislike about the positioning of this deck in the metagame right now is the prevailing UGWx control decks have shifted to black instead of red, which means they have Decays as a clean answer to Liliana, but the popularity of snow in general seems to have diminished a bit and RUG now seems to be the most played deck, so maybe it's possible to make it work.
Snuff Out is a card I feel could be particularly good at the moment (pretty solid vs Arcanist / Goyf / Mandrills / GoblinLackeyEtc and not many black creatures in the meta right now)

You guys really ought to get away from play summoning sick dude [after turn 1] -> pass. The high mana, value dudes (Whale/JVP) that fall into this category aren't doing you any favors vs Oko either. It's fine to be dedicated to the archetype, but I think chasing the next turn 1 black 1-drop to pair with Delver (Thieves' Guild Enforcer, which combos decently with Drown) is probably going to be a more successful venture.

RUG Delver is easier to beat for you than Grixis Delver before the bans, but in general you don't want to run into Delver + Bolt decks. You're not doing yourselves any favors by mirroring the slowing down that's going on in those already unfavorable matchups (especially since your comeback tools are worse ~ Pyroblast'able). Get back into the paint with 8x 1-drops (or move to UB Standstill or Dreadstill). Also you know people are getting their value from Dreadhorde, use Cling to Dust.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

You guys really ought to get away from play summoning sick dude [after turn 1] -> pass. The high mana, value dudes (Whale/JVP) that fall into this category aren't doing you any favors vs Oko either. It's fine to be dedicated to the archetype, but I think chasing the next turn 1 black 1-drop to pair with Delver (Thieves' Guild Enforcer, which combos decently with Drown) is probably going to be a more successful venture.

RUG Delver is easier to beat for you than Grixis Delver before the bans, but in general you don't want to run into Delver + Bolt decks. You're not doing yourselves any favors by mirroring the slowing down that's going on in those already unfavorable matchups (especially since your comeback tools are worse ~ Pyroblast'able). Get back into the paint with 8x 1-drops (or move to UB Standstill or Dreadstill). Also you know people are getting their value from Dreadhorde, use Cling to Dust.

---

If it was so bad to play a threat on turn 2-onwards then you need to explain (preferably in 100 words or less, I know this is difficult for you) why goyf/arcanist are so successful.
If somebody just wants to play UB Delver then I think maybe the Thieves Guild Enforcer is a better pairing with Delver than Shadow, but Shadow still has upsides.
I don't know what "comeback tools" you are referring to but I try to choose cards for that role that are monoblack specifically to dodge pyro.
I think cling to dust is at least a very good SB card, possibly you can play it main as a value 1-of as well

Most of legacy seems to have this morose fascination with chasing down Thing in the Ice by another name (JVP, Whale, Vantress, Pteramander, Stormwind elemental prowess guy). If you know TITI wasn’t going to do the trick, you could extend that logic to these flashes in the pan. These are the Pyroblast’ables, and slinging them into actual Delver (or worse, Snapcaster) has predictable outcomes - but they also all lose to Oko as a function of being cast in main phases with summoning sickness.

Now Goyf is by far the worst card in RUG Delver, but they can’t escape their very own Tarmoabyss which [barring a broken PW] condemns them to their inescapable 2012 irrelevance - they have to run it precisely because they can’t beat it. Arcanist works b/c, unlike the Pyroblast’ables, it’s generally harder to kill and requires so much less work to reliably get out of control on the next turn. More important still, the very next play is the most broken card in the format: Oko...which notably doesn’t die to Snapcaster -> recur the spell they killed Arcanist with. Oko [with the superimposed banning of Lurrus] is, by multiple degrees of magnitude, the most important factor letting RUG near top tables right now. Without Oko, RUG Delver is a bad joke [even after the free boost from DRS ban] that can barely get on board turn 1, and can hardly afford to fire off Wasteland by turn 2. Sure Arcanist is good and all, but he’s just a dude they had to tap out of permission for.

You really don’t want to push up your cmcs and emulate them, because it’ll be a worse knockoff (in the same way that Blade decks are a worse knockoff of 4c SnowOko). It’s a catch 22 though, b/c you’ll generally play into Veil if you go black. It’s a bad spot to be, but you’ve got room on the low end to be about the only Delver deck stocking 8x 1-drop threats (of the turn 1 variety) - this is your creative space. You also happen to have a B instant that beats Veil, undermines known hostile value engines, and generates value in the process [Cling].

So... maybe this is a bad interpretation, but are you saying that it's best to simply avoid anything with summoning sickness and/or a pyroblast target? Maybe I missed out on the nuance somehow?

If so then I *partially* agree with the idea. Like on one hand it feels pretty bad to have your 2 drop fatal pushed, but on the other hand as kiwi pointed out, those cards can still be really good.

I kind of like this deck though specifically because everything costs 1 (Delver / Shadow / Angler) so at least it's a little harder for the opponent than say Goyf on 2. Sure you can Daze my turn 1 Delver but I'm usually pretty happy with that exchange.

Side note, and maybe this is a hot take, but I'm just not all that worried about 3 CMC sorc speed cards from my opponent most of the time. I usually find that this deck has enough pressure to keep those cards off the table long enough to win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maximus

Side note, and maybe this is a hot take, but I'm just not all that worried about 3 CMC sorc speed cards from my opponent most of the time. I usually find that this deck has enough pressure to keep those cards off the table long enough to win.

---

So here’s the thing about not playing real Delver structure (8x 1-drop, 4x 2-drop/Shadow, 2x payoff), you have to tap down into their turn 3, putting you on exactly Daze and/or hemorrhaging cards with FoW/FoN into hostile Daze. Stifle isn’t in your deck anymore, so you can’t go around passing turns vs Wasteland (or just giving them time to establish mana to permanently play around Daze). Thoughtseize can help somewhat providing intermezzo, but it also a card you’re trimming postboard, unless they’re playing Stifle against you.

As cool as discard is, it’s also going to heavily incentivize opponents into making consistently aggressive plays to avoid trading important pieces with said discard. If something actually gets through, like say an Oko, your board isn’t going to be equipped to handle him. If instead it’s a Dreadhorde that gets through, you’ve got this hostile card that can barely ramp down your life down to 9 (4/4 Shadow vs Bolt deck) through the attack step, while they go nuts on CA. These aren’t exactly fights you can win by mimicking their slower cmcs - you’re payoffs aren’t going to be as strong...also, they aren’t under credible threat from your Delver.

Now most Delver pilots will foolishly engage resources too soon to fight a [largely meaningless] Delver on principle, which is a significant source of winrate for Shadow...but it’s generally fair to say that this stream runs dry at top tables, where pilots know how to treat life like a resource. Playing leagues on MTGO isn’t going to deterministically hurtle you towards competent Delver + Bolt players, as the matchmaking values speed of pairing alongside of calibre of record.

Played this at a small local
2-0 vs Jund Phoenix
1-2 vs Hogaak (Kept a seven on the play in g3 with 3 wraiths daze shadow no lands and bricked, have about a 60% chance to hit a coloured land turn 1 in that spot and I probably could have won if I hit turn2 as well, but probably a bit greedy)
1-2 vs Eldrazi Aggro

4 Shadow
4 Gargoyle
4 Wraith

4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Preordain
4 Daze
4 FoW
2 Stub
4 Seize
4 Hymn
1 Push
1 Snuff
1 Dismember

4 Wasteland
2 Sea
4 Grave
8 Fetchlands

SB
2 Liliana
2 Triumph
2 Engineer
2 Bargain / Contract
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 FON
2 Cling
1 Mystic Sanctuary

Notes:
- Triumph is not ideal vs Eldrazi because it's not great into Matter Reshaper but I feel like that slot needs to be something applicable vs Depths and I think it's overall preferable to Tyrant's Scorn? Not sure though.
- Cling was obviously slightly worse than e.g. Surgical against Hogaak but that's not the matchup I included it for.

I think in future
-1 Stub
-1 Preordain
+2 Baleful Strix
(optional: swap the other stub for 1 of the SB FON then maybe cut stub from the 75 to open up 1 sb slot)

I've been critical of the suggestion of Strix in the past, but I think it's a powerful card that synergizes with hymn grind plan, solves some issues that the deck has with stabilizing against fast threats, while not going overboard into playing more removal spells like push that are much worse against control/combo.

SB still seems mostly ok but I want to get some more testing of the cling plan against fair decks

Is Brazen Borrower still not universally accepted in this deck for it not being included in the primer?

I see 2 in the sideboard in most of the lists that make TCDecks.

Ark4n seemed to be testing this deck a bit, he was playing 2 eliminates. Anyone else try that card for a clean oko answer?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jethstriker

Is Brazen Borrower still not universally accepted in this deck for it not being included in the primer?

---

I would say that the "stock build" of the deck has 2 main. I wouldn't rely on primers much because they can become outdated pretty quickly:

4 Delver
4 Shadow
2 Angler
2 Borrower
4 Wraith

4 Seize
4 FoW
2 FoN
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Removal (like 2 Push + 2 Snuff Out or whatever)

4 Wasteland
14 UB Sources


I think eliminate is a good card, not sure if it fits into my overall sb plan atm but I think it's definitely worth considering

Brazen Borrower has replaced Reanimate in the couple flex spots maindeck. It's just too versatile to be in your sideboard. My current build is exactly what kombatkiwi just posted. My removal suite is 2x Fatal Push, 1x Dismember, 1x Drown in the Loch. I've toyed around with -1 Gurmag, +1 Reanimate but it doesn't support the Stubborn Denials in my sideboard (which are quite good!)

My current sideboard:
2x Plague Engineer
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Stubborn Denial
2x Bitterblossom
2x Hymn to Tourach


You have 6 hard answers and 10 soft answers to Oko main: 6 forces and 10 Daze/Thoughtseize/Borrower. I like to board in Hymn/Stubs against Oko specifically, and usually much more against the control/midrange blue stews (Blossom, Narset, Last Hope.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

I would say that the "stock build" of the deck has 2 main. I wouldn't rely on primers much because they can become outdated pretty quickl

---

That's good to know. So its just the case of the primer not being up to date.

How was your experience with Vantress Gargoyle? I can see you're running Hymn but did you have any difficulty in turning the Gargoyle on? Someone earlier mentioned the card Thieves' Guild Enforcer, do you think it can help as an additional yard filler if you're using Gargoyle? It can also act as your 1-drop threat since you already drop Delver.

Another thing, would you say that Gargoyle is better than Delver in a field of Oko? Both requires some setup but Delver is much faster.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jethstriker

That's good to know. So its just the case of the primer not being up to date.

How was your experience with Vantress Gargoyle? I can see you're running Hymn but did you have any difficulty in turning the Gargoyle on? Someone earlier mentioned the card Thieves' Guild Enforcer, do you think it can help as an additional yard filler if you're using Gargoyle? It can also act as your 1-drop threat since you already drop Delver.

Another thing, would you say that Gargoyle is better than Delver in a field of Oko? Both requires some setup but Delver is much faster.

---

Gargoyle is not very difficult to turn on (although 4x Hymn is of course a factor in that), usually if you need to activate it 1-2 times that's acceptable. Against Uro it's not great but the overall 75 has a plan for that.
You could play a deck with Thieves Guild Enforcer and Gargoyle but it would be far more aggressively slanted, probably that deck should play 4x Delver also and then it's likely not a Shadow deck.
I prefer to use those extra card slots (from playing fewer creatures) to play more interaction like Hymn to Tourach and then just win with 1 big thing after the dust settles.
You should take this advice with a grain of salt because it's obviously not a popular approach.

The main consideration for playing Delver vs Gargoyle is not really anything to do with oko but I don't like playing Delver in a deck without bolts. I still think the explanation given by Ben Friedman applies

Quote:

---

Dimir Death’s Shadow is an incredible deck, but Delver of Secrets does not belong anywhere near it. I still stand by this statement. Delver of Secrets is best with the reach provided by Lightning Bolt, or to provide a bit of early pressure that prompts the opponent to begin acting, thus unlocking your Dazes and Spell Pierces to be effective.

Death’s Shadow needs neither the light pressure of an early Delver nor a way to chip shot in damage prior to ending the game with a pair of Lightning Bolts. It just doesn’t fit in with the gameplan. Death’s Shadow is just a way, way better Grixis Control deck with the ability to actually close out the game.

See, it works like this. Grixis Control wants to trade off resources like cards in hand and creatures on the battlefield and eventually take over the game after a chain of interactive two-for-ones. The hope is that eventually a Jace, the Mind Sculptor will close the game out despite the powerful engines or heavy-hitting topdecks of other Legacy strategies.

In contrast, Delver decks want to temporarily pin their opponents on one resource axis, buying just enough time to finish the game with whichever threat they have found with their copious cantrips. Hymn to Tourach is a Grixis Control card; Spell Pierce and Stifle are Delver cards.

Death’s Shadow is just looking to trade off resources and win the game in a short timeframe after a flurry of tempo-negative discard and Dazes by sticking a 5/5 or larger threat for a single mana.

The plan of hitting an opponent for half of their life total, trading resources, and then deploying a big threat to actually finish the job in one or two turns is substantially worse than just trading the resources even more effectively and deploying the big threat to finish the job in two or three turns.

To trade resources more effectively, you need more virtual copies of your best spells, which means you need the Snapcaster effect. Unfortunately, Snapcaster Mage with Hymn to Tourach is too expensive, but Jace, Vryn’s Prodigy offers the same flexibility with a two-turn mana investment.

---

Overall I still think this is mostly true but I don't think JVP is the right place to be, because by cutting it you get to play a maindeck creature suite that's lightning-bolt immune. (Of course, you could say the same thing about e.g. Arcanist in RUG Delver, but JVP isn't as good as Arcanist, it doesn't snowball as hard because you can't repeatedly flashback spells with it, and all flashback spells are free unlike JVP where you pay 2 mana for the flashback Hymn in addition to the 2 mana upfront that provides not-much, just a loot and maybe a pw with a plus ability that's not even very good). Instead you can play e.g. the 4th Hymn or some other controlling card (strix maybe) over JVP to achieve the desired 2-for-1 effect.

Partially the other reason why the deck from that article (https://articles.starcitygames.com/p...deaths-shadow/) played 4 Shadow and 2 Angler as the only creature "threats" was that at the time Gargoyle didn't exist, and therefore the only realistic consideration for threats was Angler (or maybe Tombstalker). It's not realistic to play a list with 4 delve cards because it's too hard to have a deep graveyard to cast multiples. At GP Niagara Falls my deck had 2 Tombstalker 2 JVP and then later I tried a list with 2 Gargoyle 2 JVP, then I just cut the JVP and moved to 4 Gargoyle. After HJKaiser figured out the Sanctuary+Painful Truths plan (Cruel Bargain in this deck) you still have the card advantage option that JVP theoretically provided, but it's not vulnerable to cards like e.g. Plow that are also very good against the rest of your deck

I tried Gargoyle and I was *incredibly* underwhelmed. My personal opinion? Straight garbage. I think of it was any good, in any sort of blue deck, it would be seeing play.

For some reason people who understand the playability of Thing in the Ice fail to recognize alternate versions (ex. Vantress, Whale, Thin Lizzy, Stormwing Entity), which have the same level of playability. Every time you see such a creature ask yourself “how good is TITI really?“ because that‘s the card you‘re considering.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

For some reason people who understand the playability of Thing in the Ice fail to recognize alternate versions (ex. Vantress, Whale, Thin Lizzy, Stormwing Entity), which have the same level of playability. Every time you see such a creature ask yourself “how good is TITI really?“ because that‘s the card you‘re considering.

---

Thing in the ice fucks up your sequencing, because it asks you to play it before all your Hymn/Removal etc and it's not Modern UR Phoenix where you can flashback your looting / lavadart etc to remove all the counters off it if you topdeck it mid/lategame. I know it's easy to have a mental shortcut to group all these together but they are really not the same

Whale has similar issues to JVP, having <4 toughness

No idea what Thin Lizzy is supposed to be (Lizzy = Lizard = Pteramander?)

Quote:

---

I tried Gargoyle and I was *incredibly* underwhelmed. My personal opinion? Straight garbage. I think of it was any good, in any sort of blue deck, it would be seeing play.

---

If you splash other colours it's mostly worse than Goyf/SFM/Arcanist. There are a few mono blue Delver 5-0s, admittedly without gargoyle, and they all seem to have a 2-2 split of Whale/Stormwing.
Maybe whale isn't so bad, but they're all playing 3-4 Gut Shots as a Stormwing enabler which seems loose. Gargoyle would be much worse in these monoU decks too, because they don't have Hymn/Thoughtseize/Actual Removal spells

Thin Lizzy is indeed Pter[rible]mander. This is a cluster of creatures which die to Pyroblast while also requiring extra work. Ignoring the inherent weakness to Snapcaster/REB, these are all cards you can‘t afford to topdeck from behind - they don‘t just keep you from regaining tempo, they actively put that tempo further out of reach.

The easiest example is the dies to Goyf test: you‘re dying to Goyf -> this creature won‘t stop the fact that you‘re dying to Goyf -> even if you manage to dump in extra work these creatures need, you‘re still dying to Goyf. I lump all these creatures into the TITI category b/c that‘s the only one that can actually brick a Goyf (if you make it to magical christmasland). Now even if you somehow passed the Goyf test, you‘re still playing sorcery speed “I can‘t win with this b/c it‘s actually just a 3/3 elk“ [Oko is the most widely-played wincon in the format].

This block of creatures sounds cool and edgy, but the assessments are out of touch with the realities of legacy. Playing the TITI family of creatures is a starts-from-behind penalty, in a format where that is increasingly hard to get away with.
—
While JVP is close in many ways, the card is unconventional whereas the TITI types are heavily conventional. Unconventionally different can find successful homes. Conventionally worse cards disappear once people tire of their newness and the accompanying high loss rates. While JVP favors combo-control shells, and Shadow is part of that family, he is better strategically suited to Dreadnought and UB Reanimator [higher incidence of unconventional interactions].

some more results with gargoyle

4 Shadow
4 Gargoyle
4 Wraith
2 Strix

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Seize
4 Hymn
1 Snuff
1 Dismember
1 Push
1 FoN

4 Wasteland
4 Grave
2 Sea
8 Blue Fetches

SB
2 Cling
2 Eliminate
2 Ratchet
2 Contract/Bargain
2 Engineer
2 Liliana
1 Surgical
1 Sanctuary
1 FoN

1-2 vs Green Post
2-0 vs Burn
1-2 vs Bant Blade

0-2 vs RUG Delver
2-0 vs Turbo Depths
2-1 vs Stryfo Yorion (4C Punishing Dack)

1-2 vs RG Lands
2-0 vs Pokimoki RUG (the No-Delver Uro Stifle deck)
2-1 vs Jund Hogaak

I like strix and eliminate
Unfortunately this deck is very weak to Maze of Ith which contributed significantly to the losses vs lands / post

edit: now a 3-0
2-0 vs Gyruda Bomberman
2-1 vs Green Post
2-0 vs Eldrazi Aggro

edit:
2-1 vs Chalice Post
1-2 vs BW Eldrazi
2-0 vs RUG Delver

@kombatkiwi have you considered playing Thieves' Guild Enforcer in place of Delver? It helps turn on gargoyle and has some fairly interesting uses like Thoughtseize > they brainstorm and you let it and then resolve Thoughtseize if no counter > cast TGE to mill their assumingly most needed cards that they hid from TS with their BS. Can also randomly give you a surgical or Reanimate target. Can change board states when "turned on" as a flashed in blocker.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

@kombatkiwi have you considered playing Thieves' Guild Enforcer in place of Delver? It helps turn on gargoyle and has some fairly interesting uses like Thoughtseize > they brainstorm and you let it and then resolve Thoughtseize if no counter > cast TGE to mill their assumingly most needed cards that they hid from TS with their BS. Can also randomly give you a surgical or Reanimate target. Can change board states when "turned on" as a flashed in blocker.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

---

Slower deck, the payoff for Thieves’ Guild Enforcer [TGE] would be to spam Drown in the Loch; which is otherwise hard to justify vs Chalice and Vial decks (harder to fill their yard). The issue with such a deck is the 1-mana playable problem (Vantress and Bitterblossom and Drown have 2cmc covered). Shadow is the lower yield creature alongside TGE as compared to Delver, as it is better able to keep you in the realm of Daze/Wasteland/Thoughtseize.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

Slower deck, the payoff for Thieves’ Guild Enforcer [TGE] would be to spam Drown in the Loch; which is otherwise hard to justify vs Chalice and Vial decks (harder to fill their yard). The issue with such a deck is the 1-mana playable problem (Vantress and Bitterblossom and Drown have 2cmc covered). Shadow is the lower yield creature alongside TGE as compared to Delver, as it is better able to keep you in the realm of Daze/Wasteland/Thoughtseize.

---

Respectfully, I'm more on board with the whole "Delver is less good" than I am the "run a threat out" sort of fellow when it comes to Dimir Shadow, especially if I were running them in a Gargoyle build. For the record, I'm not, and I play delver, but I would replace it if I found something suitable. However, considering Gargoyle and the synergy it holds with Hymn to Tourach, I think I like having that much to do in black early game. I think a 3/2 Deathtouch end of opponent's turn can really change the math mid game. Worth testing if you are already playing gargoyle, I think.

It has obvious downsides in that it gives SCM and Arcanist targets, turns on their delve or Hogaak, LFTL, and probably many other things. It's a circumstantial effect, but I think it could be leveraged into a useful tool as far as these in-deck synergies are concerned.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

I don't think enabling your opponent's gy synergies is a huge issue otherwise I wouldn't be playing Gargoyle.

The main problem with TGE in the context of "I don't think delver is very good, what else can I play instead" is that TGE is just another 1drop with 3 power, so if the ability to attack for 3 is a large justification for playing the card then you have to explain why you aren't just playing Delver in the first place.

If you want to play TGE as a 4x then you can play it in a deck with a threat base of like 4x Delver 4x TGE 4x Gargoyle (Or if you're really high on the idea of being this super lean every-spell-costs-1-mana deck then 4x TGE 4x Delver 4x Shadow) but then you are running into the problem of "my 1-drop aggro delver deck has no bolts in it", and if you add red then you should probably cut some creature to add Arcanist.

If the ability to attack for 3 is not a large part of the justification for playing the card (so it's mostly in the deck as a flash removalspell that has the auxiliary upside of also attacking) then you have to compare it to Baleful Strix, and I guess there are some pros/cons either way:

TGE
- Only 1 mana
- Flash
- Better at attacking
- Can enable gargoyle

Strix
- Pitches to force
- Blocks flyers
- 2-for-1

Strix being a 2-for-1 is a pretty big deal and I don't highly value the angle of having an aggressive 1drop but I could try 1 or 2 TGE instead of the strix.

PS I just re-read the card and realised that not only the +2+1 but also the deathtouch is contingent on the opponent having threshold, this is a pretty big drawback I think

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Respectfully, I'm more on board with the whole "Delver is less good" than I am the "run a threat out" sort of fellow when it comes to Dimir Shadow, especially if I were running them in a Gargoyle build. For the record, I'm not, and I play delver, but I would replace it if I found something suitable. However, considering Gargoyle and the synergy it holds with Hymn to Tourach, I think I like having that much to do in black early game. I think a 3/2 Deathtouch end of opponent's turn can really change the math mid game. Worth testing if you are already playing gargoyle, I think.
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

---

The 2-drop interaction you should care about more is Drown in the Loch, rather than making building decisions based on being good for TITI 2.0. Note the trend of moving up cmcs heavily undermines the ability to leverage Daze/Wasteland (you really need to get on the table reliably on turn 1 with 8x 1-drop threats to unite this Waste/Daze plan with 2-drops). Wanting Delver, TGE, and Vantress doesn’t leave a lot of room for Shadows and you still have to figure out why Vantress is being played over a rogue factory (Bitterblossom triggers TGE) which might allow continued Shadow use.

If I played TGE I would want at least 2-3 maindeck Hymn to Tourach. I'm not sure there's a way to jam that in there and still keep a high enough blue count to feed 6 forces. Call me crazy, but I'm still on Delver. Everything I listen to or read tells me it's the best blue creature for a tempo deck, and it's not even close.

same list
2-0 vs BR Reanimator
2-0 vs RUG Reclaimer (maybe a brew idk)
1-2 vs RUG Delver
Still a winning record but seems impossible to get the RUG delver matchup much better than 50/50 (although that is mostly true for the entire format at this point)

Pretty cool list here that just won a Legacy challenge. It's playing green for Decay, Oko, and a spicy 2-of Jolrael, Mwonvuli Recluse maindeck. It seems to be a way to generate a wider board presence, which is something Shadow has always struggled to do. Bitterblossom still in the sideboard, but only 1 of them. Oko obviously adds a lot of punch to the deck.

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=27491&f=LE

Another list, using Scourge of the Skyclaves:

https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=27486&d=418484&f=LE

Is this archetype still competitive? Should I build it over RUG Delver?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by median

Is this archetype still competitive? Should I build it over RUG Delver?

---

Where are you going to play is the most important question. Mtgo leagues over-represent combo which gives Shadow a winrate boost. If you're talking about paper and buying duals, just be aware that the moment Oko gets banned RUG Delver goes back to being irrelevant.

Thanks,
That helps a lot.

I've been playing with this deck and really enjoy it. I want to make the red splash work to make the Delvers stronger and to get access to Pyroblast in the board. How does this list look? I will add the disclaimer that I rarely get to play Legacy in person so this list is a result of reading this thread, watching Legacy streams, goldfishing, and playing against my other legacy decks.


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death's Shadow
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Snuff Out

2 Price of Progress
2 Winter Orb

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Watery Grave
1 Underground Sea
1 Steam Vents
1 Volcanic Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Wasteland

// Sideboard
3 Divert
1 Spell Pierce
3 Pyroblast
2 Fatal Push
2 Fire Covenant
4 Leyline of the Void


Some thoughts on the list:
No Street Wraith: I wanted to find a card that was more impactful than the Wraiths but still advanced our game plan and did not become blanks in the late game. It is possible that we need some additional cantrips to supplement the Brainstorms and Ponders.

1 Cephalid Coliseum: This competes with a third Watery Grave or a second Underground Sea. Especially in a three-color version of the deck I've been watching for color problems but the Colliseum is very synergistic with the deck and can be a very strong topdeck.

2 Winter Orb: especially with the Spell Pierces main I wanted a card to help against fair decks like Maverick, Death and Taxes, and Hymn to Tourach-based decks. The Orb makes our Dazes and Spell Pierces stronger and the threat of it encourages our opponent to play extra lands, which works well with...

2 Price of Progress (PoP): A finisher by itself, a pseudo-Fling or Temur Battle Rage with Death's Shadow, synergistic with Daze, Spell Pierce, Winter Orb, and also synergistic with Delver and Lightning Bolt. PoP does have some anti-synergy with Wasteland and is bad in the same matchups that Wasteland is bad, but it seems like it is worth the risk right now.

Ideally (and I think pretty realistically) PoP will either do 4 to both players or do 4 to us and 6 to the opponent. The card's ceiling is very high, but against some decks it will be very poor and it will sometimes be a dead draw (like a lategame Wraith or Thoughtseize). Note that you can sometimes force a draw if PoP resolves, which is a non-negligible line of play. This card was probably close to unplayable a few weeks ago with all of the basics and snow-covered basics in the format but I expect it to be pretty strong now.

I much prefer Dismember to Snuff Out but I think that with Winter Orb in the main deck Snuff Out gets the slots.

Fire Covenant is strong enough that I've played it in Jund. It's custom-made for this deck.

I would expect both Winter Orb and Price of Progress to steal games as non-standard maindeck cards. I haven't seen Price of Progress suggested before and I rarely see Winter Orb either. Are these good ideas, or cards that have already been tested and dismissed?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AngryTroll

I've been playing with this deck and really enjoy it. I want to make the red splash work to make the Delvers stronger and to get access to Pyroblast in the board. How does this list look? I will add the disclaimer that I rarely get to play Legacy in person so this list is a result of reading this thread, watching Legacy streams, goldfishing, and playing against my other legacy decks.


4 Delver of Secrets
4 Death's Shadow
2 Gurmag Angler

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Thoughtseize
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Lightning Bolt
2 Snuff Out

2 Price of Progress
2 Winter Orb

4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Watery Grave
1 Underground Sea
1 Steam Vents
1 Volcanic Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Wasteland

// Sideboard
3 Divert
1 Spell Pierce
3 Pyroblast
2 Fatal Push
2 Fire Covenant
4 Leyline of the Void


Some thoughts on the list:
No Street Wraith: I wanted to find a card that was more impactful than the Wraiths but still advanced our game plan and did not become blanks in the late game. It is possible that we need some additional cantrips to supplement the Brainstorms and Ponders.

1 Cephalid Coliseum: This competes with a third Watery Grave or a second Underground Sea. Especially in a three-color version of the deck I've been watching for color problems but the Colliseum is very synergistic with the deck and can be a very strong topdeck.

2 Winter Orb: especially with the Spell Pierces main I wanted a card to help against fair decks like Maverick, Death and Taxes, and Hymn to Tourach-based decks. The Orb makes our Dazes and Spell Pierces stronger and the threat of it encourages our opponent to play extra lands, which works well with...

2 Price of Progress (PoP): A finisher by itself, a pseudo-Fling or Temur Battle Rage with Death's Shadow, synergistic with Daze, Spell Pierce, Winter Orb, and also synergistic with Delver and Lightning Bolt. PoP does have some anti-synergy with Wasteland and is bad in the same matchups that Wasteland is bad, but it seems like it is worth the risk right now.

Ideally (and I think pretty realistically) PoP will either do 4 to both players or do 4 to us and 6 to the opponent. The card's ceiling is very high, but against some decks it will be very poor and it will sometimes be a dead draw (like a lategame Wraith or Thoughtseize). Note that you can sometimes force a draw if PoP resolves, which is a non-negligible line of play. This card was probably close to unplayable a few weeks ago with all of the basics and snow-covered basics in the format but I expect it to be pretty strong now.

I much prefer Dismember to Snuff Out but I think that with Winter Orb in the main deck Snuff Out gets the slots.

Fire Covenant is strong enough that I've played it in Jund. It's custom-made for this deck.

I would expect both Winter Orb and Price of Progress to steal games as non-standard maindeck cards. I haven't seen Price of Progress suggested before and I rarely see Winter Orb either. Are these good ideas, or cards that have already been tested and dismissed?

---

So I'm not sold on the Price of Progress right now. I think the maindeck bolts and sideboard Pyroblasts are enough reason to splash red. One way to avoid the anti-synergy of PoP with Wasteland is to just play Flame Rift, but I think that generally it would be better to just play a Chain Lightning or 2.

Winter Orb has been seen in sideboards, and I think that's where it belongs for now. If the metagame shapes up to be weak to Orbs I could easily see 1-2 in the sideboard.

I think you are going to struggle against vial-based creature decks this way. The Bolts help, but vials negate all your countermagic...and they are playing Wastelands, too. Keeping red on the table will be hard, stranding your bolts. Not to mention your matchup against Moon Stompy becomes atrocious...I think basic Swamp is going to be necessary, probably worth going in your Cephalid Coliseum slot. Snuff Out against Moon stompy is essentially dead because you don't have any basic Swamps, too.

Fire Covenant seems ok...but at 3 mana you are asking a lot of your mana-base. Your velocity is lower without Street Wraiths so you're going to see on-average a few less cards in a game; that means you might not make it to the 3 mana you need to make that card work.

I think it's probably correct to replace the Spell Pierces with Force of Negations; combo decks are going to be prevalent in the new metagame, they always are in a shaken up meta. Shadow is a fantastic option in that environment, but don't take it too far and lose the percentage points you would have had with a standard approach.

EDIT: Brazen Borrower is likely the best tech against Moon Stompy/Chalice decks and Dark Depths (another combo deck that stands to be good in this new metagame.)