It's not awful if you can't it as a spell, but if you count it as a land it's going to cause you to mulligan sometimes.
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It's not awful if you can't it as a spell, but if you count it as a land it's going to cause you to mulligan sometimes.
I like tomb as the 10th land, but i honestly haven't activated it once.
Anyway I have been running 3 warrens since i picked the deck up and they are amazing, especialyl against thresh. I'm also happy to see chant out of the maindeck. I never thought it deserved a slot in the main, but during the days of flash we had to adapt somehow. Other than that i dropped the 3 cabal rituals and 1 plunge for 4 simian spirit guides in the new list and I like the way the deck runs. There are times when cabal ritual is better than a ssg but the ssg gives you so many more options when it comes to turn 1 and 2 kills.
The changes to the sideboard are great too. REB is nuts. I'm not running any chants in the board and am running an infernal contract and earthquake. I really wish i still had room for confidant though since he is a house against discard. I am thinking about cutting the sprees down to one as i don't always know if people are even bringing in chalices. For example most of the goblin decks i've played against only have pillar in the board and I will bring in sprees for no reason. I think having confidant in the baord to improve a weak matchup seems better than having sprees which are only to answer combo hate which you might not even run into. If i do this i can run 3 bob's and cut the earthquake and 2 spree's
Eh, I did some threshold testing and found that I missed Orim's Chant too much and cut Tomb of Urami and a Simian Spirit Guide for 2 Orim's chant. The card is too huge in the aggro control matchups. I'm also currently playing Goblin War Strike and a Cruel Bargain in the two empty slots in the sideboard.
EDIT IN RESPONCE TO BREATHWEAPONS POST- I don't know if the difference between 9 and 10 land is a huge deal generally speaking. You rarely keep a hand with Tomb of Urami as your only permanent mana source do you? Also, If worst comes to worst I go to 2 Simian Spirit Guide and put Tomb of Urami back in.
One of the biggest problems I'm facing at the moment is whether or not using less than 10 lands leads to a significant increase in mulligans for the deck. The general rule of thumb I use is that a deck should use an average of 8 lands if it wants to draw one land, an average of 15 lands if it wants to draw two lands and then add 2 to each number for 10 lands and 17 lands in order to ensure drawing one land and two lands and to increase the odds of drawing two lands and three lands off of Brainstorm.
I don't think that using Simian Spirit Guide as a justification for removing lands from the MD works when the deck needs to set up with either Brainstorm, Xantid Swarm, Burning Wish or Plunge into Darkness.
On a side note, all of these people using Spell Snare over Stifle in their MDs are like our new best friends, Empty the Warrens wrecks them so hard for it.
That’s about right. I have it in as a 11th land. I fucking love this damn card. If the deck is an museum, Tomb is the fantastic miniature that goes under looked among all the more impressive displays. But it is so friggin' cool. 'Cause what deck doesn’t really mind sacking all their land? TES. What deck can generate the necessary mana on turn 3 when it counts? TES.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
I played a bunch of games yesterday. In fully two of them Urami was the finisher. One where I was only able to tendrils for 5 on turn two (wish getting striped from my hand my hand, brainstorm protecting my LED) But I was able to pop the tomb that turn as well. and win on my 4th turn. This was playing against agro loam. Warrens would have lost me the game there. Mongrels and Rootwallas would have blocked goblins and Volcanic eruption is really bad for the damage count, but Urami demands two be pointed at his head. with me at 30 on turn two I just sat back took my beatings and flew over for the win.
Another I stormed out for 7 on a warrens, and they died like flies to eruption and blockers, but Urami came out the following turn and smashed in for the win.
Further tendrils or ETW would not have won these games. I suppose this proves that Tomb is good against Agro loam, but I think this logic stands for the goblins match as well. It has been said goblins is a good match up, but I am yet to test it. I tend to agree based on my testing vs. agro loam.
Agro loam (the version I was testing against anyway) has good board vs. TES. He had 3 main deck Therapies, another in the side, as well as 2 delirium skins. Those are a problem. Winning game one is ok, but going on the draw game two and getting skeined on his turn 2 off a mox diamond while taking a savage mongrel beat is a house. Twas glorious.
Anywho... I tested Tendo Ice bridge. Skip it. I found myself wanting undiscovered back in so bad. I lost 2 games to it I would have won if paradise was there in short order.
I find Tomb of Urami(s) most effective as a SB tool to bring in against decks that use Engineered Plague, Tividar's Crusade, Pyroclasm and Sandstorm instead of Pernicious Deed, Crime/Punishment, Enginered Explosives and Powder Keg, when the opponent is expecting 1/1 Goblins and finds himself against 5/5 Flying Demons.
@Wastedlife, The problem is I'm left with a hand where if Tomb of Urami is the land, I have to mulligan unless I have Infernal Tutor, Lion's Eye Diamond and either a Dark Ritual or two other accelerants. I think there's a huge difference between 9 and 10 lands, especially if one of those lands is Tomb of Urami.
You do bring up a good point tho', Simian Spirit Guide and Tomb of Urami are fighting over the same slots for dedicated mana production in TES, and there's no reason you have to use 4 Simian Spirit Guide. I think I'm going to cut a Simian Spirit Guide for it and go back to 10 golden lands and 1 Tomb of Urami total.
As an aside, how is Goblin Warstrike in the SB? Did you try Crush of Wurms at all?
I did test Goblin War Strike, I've been testing it the last 3 or 4 weeks. It's an iffy spot in my sideboard its always in and out. I did test Crush of Wurms in the sideboard in 20 games and never went for it once. I went for Bargain three times and lost because of it once, I'm still debating if Bargain/Contract will stay.
I dunno about that really. I t was useful as a way to "refill" against Control when you ran Cabal Rituals at the time. Now, it may seem somewhat worthless. Seriously, I'd much rather have Returns than the Contract.
So would I, but Contract is there for when you don't have UU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
Yes, but you onlt have 4 Rituals in the deck, compared to 4 SSG and 4 Rites. Personally, I think Goblin Lore is a candidate.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
I don't find those 3 EtW so good MD against Thresh, especially because red thresh is packing Pyroclasm maindeck lately... And if they not, they are going to bring it in SB
i am almost never hurt by having 3 md warrens. if im not going for the gobs plan, it imprimts to a mox to power out rits, otherwise i love having three helping to assure the chance of dropping it turn 1-2 so the gobs can kill before they have too much time to answer it.
Warrens is great cause you can use it turn one with a sub par hand. drop you hand, and play warrens, making a hand of say, Mox, Guide, rite, Mine, Swarm, Warrens, Petal, totally playable, as opposed to the same hand with a Tendrils instead being a mulligan. The above hand puts out 12 gobs turn 1, the tendrils version is a mulligan.
all the token removal will still work against the urami token so I dont get the point
Ah, but you see; damage based removal like Pyroclasm generally don't.
I don't like REB in side.
I try them but I prefer in side more orim's or confidant.
The advantage of REB is versatility against blue based deck.
You can destroy an annoying meddling mage or counter a FoW/stifle.
The problem is that REB is not so useful like an orim's when you want to adopt a plan that passes for LED because my opponent can counter my tutor or tutor's choice when I discard all my hand for LED and there is the problem when I want to pass for diminishing or iggy, in these cases I prefer orim.
Instead, in contrast to confidant, another problem is that REB is useful only against blue based deck when confidant is useful against more decks: discard decks like pikula, stax like angel stax that in my meta increase their popularity and many deck blue based except solidarity where I admit REB >> confidant (but we have also orim's).
In my side I must use shattering spree in 3x. Too many chalice post side and many decks that use trinisphere.
Has someone tried a different land from undiscovered paradise like 11° land?
I've tried glimmervoid but it's horrible.
Tendo Ice Bridge is the same.
Now I'm trying Tarnished Citadel.:rolleyes:
First off i wana say im sad to see TES fall out of the DTB fourms... :'(
Ok, to business:
I'm happy with my main, it's almost the same as WastedLife's.
Questionable slots...
i'm running 10 land, and love it, 1 tomb, 1 paradise.
4 SSG, 4 Rites, 3 Warrens, 2 Tendrils, 3 Plunge, everything else standard numbers.
The sideboard is what needs the most work.
my current list:
1 Ill-Gotten Gains - Burning Wish target, helps win
1 Diminishing Returns - Burning Wish target, helps win
1 Tendrils of Agony - Burning Wish target, wins
1 Empty the Warrens - Burning Wish target, wins
1 Hull Breach - Burning Wish target, takes out Pillars, Chalice, Confinements, catch all
1 Tranquility - Burning Wish target, i have had SO many games where i have 4 enchantments on my opponents side and a tranq would just plain win, Loam Confinement, and Enchantress are being played much more.
1 Duress - Burning Wish target, gets rid of a counter, thinking about cutting
1 Goblin Warstrike - Burning Wish target, helps EtW win, thinking about cutting
3 Shattering Spree - Burning Wish target, Amazing to board in much needed against chalice, and 3sphere
4 Pyroblast - most hated slot. i want confidants here, but im not sure... i'm probally going to switch though. (see the skitzo within? trust me it makes deck building hard, but playing even harder, LOL)
I know what you mean man, my manabase is currently...Quote:
Originally Posted by jegger
4x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
2x Undiscovered Paradise
This is because Tomb simply cannot cast enough of the deck, a conversation with Anwar opened up some views on Tomb. I don't think we can justify it in the deck, I've won countless games because of it. However, I believe I've probably mulliganed more because of it.
as for Demon's SB, mine is currently...
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Duress
1x Goblin War Strike
1x Hull Breach
1x Cruel Bargain
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Orim's Chant
3x Shattering Spree
My maindeck changes are -1 Tendrils, -1 Plunge. +1 SSG and +1 land(or Chant's I can't remember). I was testing and found playing 2 Orim's chant SB over REB is much stronger due to the fact it can be cast before comboing. Although, 2 REB was still needed to make sure a Chant Resolved.
You need to be as close to B/r as possible before Tomb of Urami is a mana source that the deck can keep a hand on, and even then a hand with Tomb of Urami is ruling out Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns.
I keep seeing people cut Plunge into Darkness, and I can't find the reasoning for it. The deck was built on using Plunge into Darkness to find Lion's Eye Diamond, and if you cut Plunge into Darkness you are weakening your strategy for a dedicated threat, disruption or accelerant that isn't as versatile as Plunge into Darkness.
Glad to see the second Tendril go, man that thing caused a ridiculous amount of mulligans.
2 tendrils is nessary, you remove too many cards to cut it, i would HATE to plunge, and have the IGG and Tutor in hand, and plunge and have to take Tendrils over LED just cause i couldn't remove my last Tendrils...
also, the main deck is pretty much close to being perfect, like what say 90% of it is done, we just need to figure out the last 10%
the problem is that the last 10% is meta/playstyle calls.
I don't like so much 2 undiscovered paradise.
In first turns, when I play brainstorm / plunge to arrange my hand, the undiscovered paradise can slow down my start to combo.
I prefer to continue to have in deck the tomb. Sometimes I win some matches that I've lost. Usually against damned STax. Ah, ah, ah. Or pikula. :cool:
My decklist is more similar to old decklists with only 1 EtW and still with 2 cabal ritual. This is because perhaps my meta is different form yours and there are too many response to EtW also maindeck: e.e., tabernacle, sharpshooter, echoing truth, pyroclasm...all cards maindeck :eek:
So sometimes I can also do 8-10 goblins in my first turn, but I prefer to adopt a different strategy if I know my opponent has too many response to EtW.
If my opponent has a weak strategy to contrast EtW I can side in g2/3.
This is because I use only 1 EtW and also for the problem that I want the minimum number of spell at CC4 (I use only a ToA for this reason).
Goblin war strike is so good? I never try it. I think it's only a tech that steals space in the side. How many time do you use war strike?
sorry for my language. :ug:
Goblin War Strike is much stronger with 3 ETW maindeck, I must admit. However, when comboing out with ETW and playing an LED and not using it is prime for GWS(<- I guess we just found out what GWS stands for). War Strike is almost a timewalk in the essence that you can skip your opponents next turn and kill them before hate comes down. I've won games on turn 2 due to ETW, swing 10, Brainstorm -> Crack LED for RRR. Burning Wish for Warstrike to then have my teammate reveal 3 Pernicious Deed. That's only 1 way to win with Warstrike also, there's plently less complicated ways. 2 lands and a SSG or Petal also works on turn 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by jegger
Also, Cabal Ritual is very bad compared to SSG; I'd atleast test Simian Spirit Guide.
Cabal Ritual isn't awful, I could see using it instead of Right of Flame if TES dropped Plunge into Darkness and 2 Empty the Warrens for Infernal Contract and Cruel Bargain. You can run appr. five Draw 4s on just Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual and add another thanks to Brainstorm and the land count. The opponent can't know the number of Empty the Warrens in the MD or between the MD and SB, so there's a strong chance he will still counter the rituals.
Cabal Ritual just depends on the suite of threats in the deck, the same with Right of Flame.
Let me rephrase then, Cabal Ritual sucks in decks that aren't SI. There's no need to support BBB when we can easily support 2UU or 1B/R.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Cabal Ritual is actually quite good in Iggy Pop. I think a statement that broad is bound to be wrong. Sure it might not work very well in TES, but that doesn't make it always a bad choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
There's also Careful Study and Mental Note to think about, for awhile in the Summer I was running Careful Study over Brainstorm in IGGY POP, because Careful Study put 2 cards in the discard pile instead of on top of the deck to facilitate Threshold, Hellbent and fresh draws. Theoretically, you recoup your card advantage once you get Threshold for a Cabal Ritual.
You obviously have to build around Cabal Ritual, but it definitely doesn't suck.
I think that your play style is more similar to CRET Belcher with more opportunity to play EtW in 1° turn. My play style is similar but I use more a component of control in my play style (perhaps I wrong).
Cabal ritual sometimes can be bad because it does only +1 mana for -1 card.
But cabal ritual can be useful in some situations: usually against decks like pikula or decks that use chalice at 0/1. In this case can be useful play tutor showing cabal ritual, do double cabal ritual -> infernal tutor -> iggy -> win.
Cabal ritual is an alternative way to produce more mana.
Perhaps I can wrong but my mana accelerations already contain also 4x simian spirit guide so I prefer to use only 3 chrome mox and 3 plunge for 2 cabal ritual (yes only 2).
A question on 2 cards:
what do you think of three wishes?
can be useful now death wish? I know that we discuss it time ago but perhaps we can reconsider it with the new build and a new side.
Death Wish costs BBB. That means one should only play it if running Black acceleration. But since now the standard builds have switched to running more Red...
It costs 1BB actually. And there's really nothing un-sorcery that you'd really want to Wish for.
Grim Tutor is almost always going to be better to you than Death Wish. It costs less life on average, doesn't require you to dilute your deck's accelerant or business, and can find anything in your deck. Unfortunately, Grim Tutor would require 4x Cabal Rit, and I'm not entirely convinced that Grim Tutor is even on par with Plunge into Darkness at finding LED, especially considering that you're always going to be burning a ritual to do it.
Hunting Pack, it's an alternate win condition that generates lethal damage for 5 storm, 1 turn and can't be removed by Empty the Warrens hate (it's not an awful MD consideration either against U/g/r and its ilk). Tombstalker, it's an alternate win condition that's going to be cost efficient thanks to LED and DelveQuote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
I don't see a problem with adding Death Wish, it's just another "combo version" of Burning Wish that can be used to suppliment/diversify the threats. I wouldn't add a few, but you could add a couple.
On another tangent, Xantid Swarm seems awful right now, U/g/r Gro is getting popular and 8 MD removal cards are just too much for Xantid Swarm to be reliable. People seem to be gravitating to U/g/r because MD Pyroclasm is superior against MD Meddling Mage against combo and aggro, and you'll get some number of Pyrite Spellbomb, Seal of Fire, Magma Jet, Fire/Ice, Lightning Bolt or Chain Lightning along with it. Orim's Chant or Duress both look safer, it's probably time to adapt to the environment, considering the environment has adapted to us.
@BreathWeapon: I think your right, Swarm is amazing, but too much removal to rely on it hitting...
I'm thinking of finding room for chants in the main again, they did really well when they were there, and now i need to fix them back in.
Are you suggesting cutting Xantid all together or add more protection along with it? I've had Chant not be in my maindeck for 2 days then I missed it and put it back in. All-together I run 4 Swarm MD 2 Orim's Chant MD, 2 Orim's Chant SB and 3 Duress SB (I cut REBs' a few days ago after some advice from "Di".)(Although, I only side in 2 Duress and leave one as a Wish target), I believe I've been adapting, I don't know about you. Xantid Swarm is fine to me, even with UGr gro becoming more popular. If they kill it, thats not a Sb slot that would've wrecked me. If they don't kill it you win the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
If I use Death Wish I build a deck that help the play of this card. So I use sure 4 cabal ritual and it's interesting the BreathWeapon's proposal of Tombstalker.
Then others target can be orim's chant, storm entity, chain of vapor,...
The problem is that death wish can't search an useful mana source like plunge can do with LED. I think that we can use death wish only in a deck with more black acceleration: culling of the weak, song of damned and many more; but in a deck like this with 4 simian, 4 rite I think that we can't use it optimally.
About xantid swarm, yeah there is the problem of creature removals.
with xantid we can transform an useless card like fire/ice in a good card; so my opponent if we play xantid can bolt it and keeps fow for an other target.
So now I'm using 4 chant in maindeck and 0 xantid.
And I'm thing to replace some cards in side with the old defense grid (2x) that can't be removed so easy. Dgrids are more slow but they allow to play more freedom wihout the worry of fow, stifle, orim if we use iggy or diminishing.
Perhaps I wrong because Dgrids often obbligate to play 1 turn slow.
I wouldn't cut Xantid, If anything you run both, not one or the other. More protection > less Protection. Defense Grid is slow, clunky, and doesn't remove to Chrome Mox (I've lost games because of this). This can be troublesome, if you are set on running Defense Grid I'd think about SSG again it makes turn one Grid alot more possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by jegger
Right now Xantid Swarm is in the SB and Orim's Chant/Duress is in the MD, the issue isn't using Xantid Swarm to get them to keep their burn in for game 2, it's losing game 1 to that burn. I'm not certain the opponent's have a card to even SB out for Seal, because 'Clasm and Stifle are in the MD as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
If the opponent counters Xantid Swarm then TES is in good shape, if the opponent burns Xantid Swarm then TES is in bad shape, if the opponent doesn't counter or burn Xantid Swarm then the game was won regardless of the disruption. It's impossible to determine whether or not the burn was keeping a SB card out of the deck, not to mention irrelevant game one, so I don't think that's a justification for using Xantid Swarm in the face of 8+ burn spells.
Not to mention that using Xantid Swarm is conceding ground against combo, prison and discard. I just don't see a reason to treat Xantid Swarm as a sacred cow when it's the worst possible MD disruption against the most popular (at least here) aggro-control deck and a random field.
Swarm is GREAT main deck, if i don't need him, Mox eats him, and i'm good, if i do, then i'm happy to see him, i ALMOST NEVER don't like drawing one, the ONLY time i dislike seeing him, is when i already have on down and it's staying put (and no Mox) or i draw one off D. Returns (and still don't have a mox), thats it, i even like seeing him against gobs, as he blocks Lacky/Piledriver, and buys me a turn.
This is the fundamental issue.Quote:
If the opponent counters Xantid Swarm then TES is in good shape, if the opponent burns Xantid Swarm then TES is in bad shape, if the opponent doesn't counter or burn Xantid Swarm then the game was won regardless of the disruption. It's impossible to determine whether or not the burn was keeping a SB card out of the deck, not to mention irrelevant game one, so I don't think that's a justification for using Xantid Swarm in the face of 8+ burn spells.
Xantid Swarm countered? ok, it's a 2x1 and if my oppponent isn't so lucky with double FoW in hand I can win.
Xantid Swarm burned? This is a problem, my opponent can have in hand a counter and we've lost time to play xantid. In this case what do you prefer to have in your initial hand? A must counter Orim or a burning Xantid?
Xantid Swarm remains alive? Well or my opponent haven't in hand a bolt/fow and we win anyway or my opponent is playing another deck that doesn't worry of xantid using disruption at sorcery speed like duress, chalice,...and we waste time to play xantid.
perhaps sacred mosquito? :laugh:Quote:
treat Xantid Swarm as a sacred cow
Boh I've lost a match at a tournament where I imprint mox with green...Quote:
Swarm is GREAT main deck, if i don't need him, Mox eats him, and i'm good, if i do, then i'm happy to see him, i ALMOST NEVER don't like drawing one, the ONLY time i dislike seeing him, is when i already have on down and it's staying put (and no Mox) or i draw one off D. Returns (and still don't have a mox), thats it, i even like seeing him against gobs, as he blocks Lacky/Piledriver, and buys me a turn.
If we must measure the card's force for the imprinting, all cards are strong and baron sengir >> xantid swarm because mox gives black mana. This isn't a real advantage.
Many times I don't like to see in my initial hand a xantid swarm and usually when I have double xantid I mulligan if I know my opponent doesn't play blue. All matches I know my opponent doesn't play blue xantid << any other card in the deck.
I return to play Dgrid because it's a surprise card now and my opponent doesn't put artifact destruction against TES. Sure, Solidarity isn't so played and Dgrid is only a win more, but in many matchup I prefer to slow down a turn to build more defense.Quote:
I wouldn't cut Xantid, If anything you run both, not one or the other. More protection > less Protection. Defense Grid is slow, clunky, and doesn't remove to Chrome Mox (I've lost games because of this). This can be troublesome, if you are set on running Defense Grid I'd think about SSG again it makes turn one Grid alot more possible.
And sure...I play 4 simian...:cool: that with Dgrid are cool.
Xantid Swarm comes down on turn 1, if it's on the play it dodges both Stifle and Pyroclasm. Making both cards dead weight against TES. How are we going to lose to 4 MD Lightning Bolt and maybe 2-3 other burn spells? It's not dramatically different than 4x Swords to Plowshares.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
I agree that if a control player forces Xantid TES is in good shape, however, if they burn it it's still 1 for 1. There's no real lose for losing a Xantid Swarm to burn, yeah you don't have a 0/1 flying beater, but that isn't going to be the end of the game. Most Threshold/Gro lists don't even play 8+ burn spells, making Xantid Swarm better than you seem to make it look.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Oh well, Xantid Swarm gets boarded out game two vs. all of them. It's not a big deal it's 4 MD slots that are interchangable. It's not a 'sacred cow' as you make it seem, it's good in the metagame. Combo, prison and discard aren't even a fourth of the metagame so I see no reason to weaken the deck for such a small percentage.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Also, Xantid Swarm comes online on turn 1 a great portion of time shutting down cards like Stifle, Daze, Counterspell, Spell Snare, (forces them to Brainstorm in responce) which can make a significant differance, and many others. Just because it doesn't always stop Force of Will on turn 1 or lightning bolt doesn't mean it should be cut from the deck. Duress is much weaker vs. opening hands on turn one than Xantid Swarm is. Duress leaves hands with counterspells and stifle galore. I agree with you on Orim's Chant being good which is why I've been running 4 in between my MD and Sb for awhile now.
EDIT: I've been getting PM's and IM's from people wanting an updated list and primer on the opening post, since I do not control Nightmare's initial post I did the next best thing. My first post of the thread (2nd post) is now an updated primer including a new decklist.
I play Duress in MB, and the Swarm only SB. In Germany many red players flooded the Metagame. And they always board Pyrostatic Pillar or play it 2x in MB.
Also he totally destroys opponent Combo.
Sure Swarm is strong but not in all Matchups, especially in my Meta the swarm sucks.
if you know your meta swarm might not be the best, but in a un-known meta, or a random spread, (SCG Dual for Duals) you should run 4 main.