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I'll share: I'm testing a Kor Haven in this deck. In theory it should work well - it has a nice synergy with taxing effects, but most importantly with those turns where you have a partial lock in place and just don't draw anything relevant to spend your mana on.
That doesn't seem bad. It's like a Maze of Ith that adds mana in the early game.
So you've been here on the source for a whopping month now and you've decided our tried and true stax configurations are obsolete? Where do you play legacy? There arent too many actual legacy metagames for you to get your playtesting. In the US theres basically MA, VA, and NY to go to good Legacy tournaments. Where do you play??Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
I ask people like Breath Weapon this (who still has not answered me) because it gives what your saying a certain amount of credit. Id be more prone to buy your blue splash innovations if you had some tournaments under your belt or actually, if I hadnt tried it myself. But I have, look up Tide Stax. I started the thread.
You say alot that says to me, "I havent played this deck as much as I claim." For example, Lab/Law is only a sb card because its only good against Storm Combo. Your saying its so good because your opponent cant Brainstorm into Force but you could just drop 3sphere... If you have a beef with Counterspells you should be playing Defense Grid anyways. Lab/Law does nothing about goyf. I dont get what your saying.
Parallax Tide is bad. Its an enchantment that can be nuked to get lands back unlike Geddon. It costs :u::u: which the deck has no intention to produce for a card worse than one it already plays. It can be Pithing Needled, geddon cant. Your opponent can also just wait for the sucktastic mechanic of fading to make your Tide just a worse Tangle Wire. Tide is only ever good if you have Stifle for it.
Idylic Tutor is terrible. Its far too slow whether or not it doesnt cost one mana to avoid Chalice. Its narrow, it only gets enchantments. What are you gonna get thats worth 2 turns waiting for? Pendril Mists isnt that good and Ghostly Prison is a stall tactic you were suppose to play it early. Removing business spells for slow ass tutors is actually not ok sorry.
Intuition is also bad because it puts cards in your yard for goyfs, doesnt actually get you the card you want unless you throw 2 other copies in the shitter, and its not a perm, a golden rule for this deck. Oh yea its also blue.
Fetch Lands are bad in the deck. You cant Needle Heaths/Strands if you play them, they can be Stifled, and the life loss can really add up with Tombs. If you want to avoid Waste play the deck better, drop basic plains then follow with the powerfull colorless lands the turn you want to play a bomb so you can at least get a use out of them.
"When you hit a land-pocket, you can reshuffle for better topdecks."
This doesnt even make sense. How do you know when your in a land pocket? After you've drawn 2-3 in a row? How are you sure there's another land after that and not finally a spell? You'd rather possibly shuffle into more lands?
Suppression Field is far from obsolete in this deck if thats what your trying to say. Cephalid Breakfast cant combo with it in play. More decks than Thresh use Fetchlands, this is Legacy! Goblins has Fanatic, 7-8 fetchs, AETHER VIAL, and Seige Gang for it to crunch. It keeps Deed from going off sometimes since more of your opponents need to play it and pass the turn anyways. Having to pay 2 more to blow up your 3 drops is pricey and sometimes not possible if your Suppression Fields are also stopping their Fetch Lands. That can give you alot of time to O-Ring the Deed.
Suppression Field is also great against Wasteland which is good against you. You honestly dont need to care that Wasting a land would cost you two mana since you play Geddon and your Wastes are reserved for problematic lands such as Mishras Factories.
This is another I know jack about the format statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Leyline is really only worth running against Ichorid and Breakfast in the first place. Your having a great Thresh match already and oh yea, your not even playing black. Does that mean you only intend on casting this card from your opener? Thats all this deck needs, more dead top decks.. Mox Diamond is the most powerfull card you can get in your opener, not a narrow off color enchantment.
Not that the comments were directed at me but ... wow, you are so wrong. Speaking purely for GA, we have WEEKLY Legacy events that ALWAYS have 20+ people. Granted, you did say "good" and # of people does not necessarily equate to good, but I can ensure you that the decks and people piloting them are just as good as your town.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Im not trying to knock anyones metagames those are just the regions that have the 40+ tournaments for the most parts. Id love to see some large scale events from GA shaping the metagame forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by kabal
I'd like to hear your opinion on my list.
Lands:
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tombs
3 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
6 Plains
Critter
4 Windborn Muse
3 Magus of the Tabernacle
Lock/Disruptionpieces
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Smokestack
4 Armageddon
Manasafety & Acceleration
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
Sideboard
4 Pithing Needle
4 Oblivion Ring
4 Exalted Angel
3 Jotun Grunt
At the moment I'm testing if Canopy is better than Flagstone # 4, as nearly always when I draw it gets discarded into Mox. But in the later game it's a far better Topdeck than Flagstones and the synergy between Crucible and Canopy is clear I guess.
Muse is used as Ghostly Prison # 5-8, and due the fact I'm running more creatures now I cut the Magi down to 3 as one is always enough because I'm often not able to pay the Upkeepcost of two Magi. On the other hand, two Muse don't cost anything.
The Sideboard is a bit unusual I guess. Needles are clear, targets as well. Ring is in the SB as I don't want to cut something from the maindeck for it. Exalted Angel is boarded against Aggro/Burn decks und together with Grunt they are a nice mini "man-plan" which can hit the Controlplayer hard after they boardet out nearly all creaturehate after G1.
I've never liked Windborn Muse in testing. It's as fragile as Exalted Angel, which is a bigger investment but one that wins you the game instead of sometimes stopping you from losing. Even against beatdown, what would you rather have - your opponent unable to attack due to infinite Propaganda effects while you swing for two, or him attacking with one creature per turn while you swing back for 4 + 4 life? If you resolve an Armageddon, even without a Crucible for fast recovery on your side, it's even better.
The one substantial advantage of Muse is that it removes your need for double-white mana, so you need 1-2 less white sources in the deck. But with the threat of Angel added in, I've fared nicely with 3 Factories and 2 Wasteland (actually, I activate the Factories so rarely I'm thinking of going down to two).
Oh, and I forgot to post about the idea I mentioned a few weeks ago: Kor Haven is working like a charm. It's conditional and Legendary so I'm not bumping it to two copies, but the singleton one has won me a fair amount of games and the colourlessness hasn't hurt me yet. I'm now recommending it for testing to everyone.
So all in all you'd advise me to play 4 Angel in Muse's place? In the next few weeks I don't have to do anything cause it's vacation time so I'll test it. Rings main would also be nice due their flexibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
But as I play Angel in the side I need the mana sources again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
But you have not always an (active) Angel and Mishra's can chumpblock with Crucible all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
In which place do you test it? Could you post your actual list, please (or at least its manabase)? Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [TSP] Flagstones of Trokair
7 [UNH] Plains
2 [TE] Wasteland
1 [NE] Kor Haven
// Creatures
3 [PLC] Magus of the Tabernacle
4 [JGC] Exalted Angel
// Spells
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
4 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
4 [DS] Trinisphere
4 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [P3] Ravages of War
2 [P2] Armageddon
3 [US] Smokestack
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [9E] Defense Grid
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 4 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
Six non-finalized slots. Common choices are: Powder Keg (EtW or Bridge tokens, mostly), Jotun Grunt or Tormod's Crypt for graveyard decks, Pithing Needle, Suppression Field, Disenchant.
Good looking list, but i have one question regarding Muse:
As i see it Muse would be more a Ghostly Prison than an Angel replacement.
Maybe cut the 4th Angel and Prison for 2 Muse or something like that.
Now i am not really expierenced with this archtype, i played Wu Angel Stax back, so i dont know how important it is that Prison -costs one less than Muse and that Muse is a creature and therefore easier to remove?
Ghostly Prison (2W) is able to be played on turn 1 reliably. As an enchantment, it is much harder to remove than a creature in the current metaGoyf. Ghostly Prison is a crucial lock piece in Stax, and I wouldn't remove it for anything currently in print (although, against some matchups [combo], these are the first things to come out).Quote:
Originally Posted by deadlock
Im surprised you only sb Oblivion Ring I think its the best card to come out for stax in a long time. Especially considering the change to decks that can simply pay :2: and attack you for 5-12. Im slowing removing Ghostly Prisons for them since Empty the Warrens has cooled down. I especially like that its a hard to counterbalance answer to Dreadnought/goyf. With Nought they usually cant re-stifle it even if you lose the Ring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil
I have decided to make a Legacy deck, after a little research the Stax deck seems te be fun.
But I have a few questions about this deck, I hope you can help me answer them.
1. Isn't Smokestack very dangerous to play? It seems to me you destroy your own lock with it, or must you wait putting it into play until you've a Crucible of Worlds in play?
2. How many counters are (usually) necessary to put on the Smokestack? only 1 so you can sacrife a land and then return it with Crucible of Worlds or is it adviced to put more counters on it?
3. Why so few decks run Tangle Wire? isn't it good?
4. Many decks run Magus of the Tabernacle over Wrath of God, but isn't Wrath of God better?
5. How does this deck win? just with some little beatings from Mishra's Factory and Magus of the Tabernacle?
6. Why play Engineerd Explosives if the deck has only 1 color mana ?
7. I can't find many deck lists with Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale, isn't this card better then the Magus ?
8. Is the build of the topic starter (see bellow) a good build?
4x Armageddon
4x Magus of the Tabernacle
4x Smokestack
4x Ghostly Prison
4x Trinisphere
4x Crucible of Worlds
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Engineered Explosives
4x Mox Diamond
4x Ancient Tomb
3x City of Traitors
3x Crystal Vein
4x Mishra’s Factory
4x Flagstones of Trokair
6x Plains
Thanks in advance
Tangle Wire is only good against decks that the deck is all ready good against. It also consumes useful, limited space.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maarten
Although Wrath is a better immediately, Magus supports the mana denial, blocks with a huge hide, and can win the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maarten
Yes, unless Exalted Angel is run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maarten
Yes, but not many people own real Tabernacles. They're a rare commodity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maarten
Crystal Vein typically isn't run. It destabilizes the mana base and isn't as useful as it seems. You sacrifice mana to hinder everyone's mana. It's bad into Chalice, Trinisphere, and Smokestack, the three most important things to power out, sans Prison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maarten
EDIT:Emidln has a lot to say in regards to Tangle Wire.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
1. This deck is build around Smokestack hence the name "Stax". Aside from 4-5 Armageddon effects every single card in the deck is a permanent. Also no card has a cc higher than 4 (assuming you play Angel morphed) so if you can afford your 4 mana for Stack you are also very likely to be able to play every single card you draw off the top. So even if you don't have a Crucible yet you can keep your Smokestack at 1 counter almost infinitely. Flagstones also help keep more permanents in play until you find Crucible and they are a reason why drawing some Armageddons in the meantime isn't that bad.
Speaking of Armageddons, if you have Smokestack and Trinisphere in addition to your 4 lands it is sometimes correct to just play your Armageddon and sacrifice the Smokestack to itself. Then both you and your opponent will be screwed under Trinisphere but you play 24-26 lands which is more than most other Legacydecks do so you should be back into the game faster.
2. If you already have a Crucible, 2 counters are often the correct choice because you can sac the land you return with Crucible and the card you've drawn if it was not a land. Also if you have Flagstones ramping up to 2 counters is sometimes right too. Often however it depends on the situation (i.e. does your opponent have something you need to get rid of, how many permanents do each of you have total?). As I already said putting a counter on it and just keeping it there is possible but you also have the option of going up to way more counters. Mostly this is in situations where your opponent has an advantage on the board and you just want to clear the board to start fresh (remember you are very likely to draw more lands to get back into the game). You have to pay attention how many permanents both of you have, how many cards your opponent has left in his hand and how many lands were already played on both sides. You also need to anticipate when your opponent might throw more permanents (lands) on the board and when he's sandbagging them.
In summary: Read your opponent, gain experience and if you are not sure 1 counter is often the right choice.
3. Tangle Wire has some issues. It only affects the board temporarily and it often affects you as much as your opponent. It also does nothing but buy you some time and even if it does that without additional lockpieces you didn't advance your gameplan at all. Its many flaws are hard to pin down and explain. Maybe you should test it to get a feeling for how strong (or weak) it is yourself.
In summary I'd say it is just not strong enough to warrant a spot over the other stronger cards the deck already plays. Maybe if the minimum decksize was 70 or something it could be included.
4. Wrath of God cannot be sacrificed for Smokestack, it cannot attack and block and it costs double white. I think this sums it up. Oh and also Wrath is a one-time effect while Magus/Tabernacle stays until your opponent handles it.
5. These little beatings can add up fast. Consider that with a Magus and a Factory it only takes 5 turns to finish your opponent. In the past there have been controldecks slower than this. Also if you have established a hard lock your opponent should not need too much time with his turns so even if you only have a Factory to beat down these 10 turns should not take more than 5 minutes. (All the opponent has to do is sac, draw, play land or if he didn't play a land discard; all you have to do is sac, draw, replay land, attack)
Btw if you are really concerned about finishing your opponent in time (maybe because you are too inexperienced with the deck or the format as a whole) play some Exalted Angels too (btw a really good choice anyway).
6. You have Mox Diamonds so technically you can produce all 5 colors. Of course you'll only be able to set it to 0, 1 or 2 reliably but these are the cc that are most important for the deck. 0 destroys any tokens, morphs and some opposing acceleration like Chrome Mox (however remember it kills your Mox Diamonds and Chalices too). 1 destroys annoying critters like Nimble Mongoose, Kird Ape or Goblin Lackey and speaking of Goblins it also destroys the always annoying Aether Vial. At 2 there's Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Arcbound Ravager etc.
If I remember correctly it was first included to have additional ways to deal with Empty the Warrens and as a solution to Aether Vial.
Right now it might be better to play Oblivion Ring instead.
7. As I already said above Magus can attack and block which is really nice if your opponent has say a 3/3 Mongoose or a 5/6 Tarmogoyf or if you need to finish your opponent quickly. Not being a land also means that he stays around after Armageddon for at least one round if you don't play a land after the Geddon (you can also often support him with Mox Diamond or a Plains fetched by Flagstones). You might be able to play The Tabernacle after an Armageddon sometimes but having your Magus just sit there on defense until you topdeck the Geddon is very valuable against many decks.
edit: Sanguine Voyeur is right Tabernacle is very expensive so not everybody has access to them.
8. Imho it is a bit outdated however the core of the deck is very big so up to now most or even all modifications made to the deck were only minor. This exact version might even be better than most current builds in certain metagames.
The latest version of the original designer Christopher Coppola can be found here.
What's new?
Exalted Angels as anti-aggro tool and quick finisher against difficult matchups.
5 Armageddon effects to get a better ratio of drawing them.
Wastelands added for extra disruption a the potent "Waste-lock" with Crucible.
I don't like maindeck Oblivion Ring for the same reason I never liked maindeck sweepers: it is a simple stalling card, one that doesn't make your opponent's pressure any lighter. You kill a creature, they drop a new one, back to square one. Blech. This deck doesn't run card draw, so it hates those sort of trades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Sometimes it's simply necessary: EtW at its peak required something more reliable than Prisons and Magi. You mentioned Dreadnought, which can only be answered with a pre-emptive Chalice@1 or Oblivion Ring; anything else is too slow. But really, Dreadnought is the only threat I can think of that demands these measures. Not only does Tarmogoyf (or Tombstalker, or Gathan Raiders, or Jotun Grunt...) leave you 4-5 turns to lock the attack step, but unlike Dreadnought or EtW it doesn't require any investment from your opponent, so killing it runs into the problem described above: what do I do about the next one?
Stax a fun deck? Now I've really heard everything... :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Maarten
Obviously Smokestack + Crucible is the tits, but the reason Smokestack works is that you usually run 52 permanents (I'm not counting Mox Diamond), four of which are Flagstones of Trokair and four more (Cities of Traitors) which are going away sooner or later anyway. The vast majority of decks in the format play significantly less, meaning that if you're not on a fast clock it's going to single-handedly lock them out of the game... eventually (much emphasis on 'eventually').Quote:
1. Isn't Smokestack very dangerous to play? It seems to me you destroy your own lock with it, or must you wait putting it into play until you've a Crucible of Worlds in play?
Generally, stay at one - at that setting you can maintain it indefinitely by simply playing out your hand. Going to two is something that only happens if you are on a clock and really need to reset your opponent out fast, since one of the following must be true:Quote:
2. How many counters are (usually) necessary to put on the Smokestack? only 1 so you can sacrife a land and then return it with Crucible of Worlds or is it adviced to put more counters on it?
- You have Crucible + Flagstones active (or Crucible + Gods' Eye, but I think Gods' Eye shouldn't be run since it's only good here and being colourless is highly relevant)
- You have Crucible active, 4+ mana to play your drawn cards, and a threat
- You will get rid of Smokestack within a couple of turns. Since you're a prison deck, this is a bad idea unless you either have a replacemente in hand or are confident to win before they can recover (usually with an Angel).
Tangle Wire has the main advantage of versatility: against beatdown, it's a multiple Fog, and against control, it's a Defense Grid. The problem I have with the card is that it's a bad Fog and a really terrible Defense Grid.Quote:
3. Why so few decks run Tangle Wire? isn't it good?
No. With Wrath of God, they can just play more creatures and you're back where you started. With Magus of the Tabernacle, the same isn't true.Quote:
4. Many decks run Magus of the Tabernacle over Wrath of God, but isn't Wrath of God better?
The big drawback of Magus over Wrath is that it can be removed - one of the many reasons I play Angel alongside Magus (many decks are removal-light). But even if that were too big of a problem, the second choice for mass creature control would be Moat or Humility, not Wrath.
I play Angels, never less than three of them. It's perfectly possible to win with just 6-8 win conditions, but in my experience can lead to a lot of drawn Game 3s.Quote:
5. How does this deck win? just with some little beatings from Mishra's Factory and Magus of the Tabernacle?
Empty the Warrens, mostly; with Mox Diamond, Tarmogoyf and other stuff can also be handled (Powder Keg is another option, being more reliable but slower).Quote:
6. Why play Engineerd Explosives if the deck has only 1 color mana ?
However, this is less of a concern these days; in fact, EtW has gotten so much hate that I see combo players now use it as a last resort when they really can't win with Tendrils of Agony.
No, Magus is by far the better card. Tabernacle is only any use when your opponent is attacking with multiple creatures. If he only has one, it's a bad Wasteland that doesn't even make mana. If he has none or uses manlands, all you can do is pitch it to Mox Diamond.Quote:
7. I can't find many deck lists with Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale, isn't this card better then the Magus?
Magus, by contrast, provides a huge-ass blocker alongside with the Pendrell effect; this is splendid synergy since it forces your opponent to play a second creature - and cost himself another mana each turn - in order to deal you any damage at all. Moreover, Magus is a win condition. And finally, Magus isn't Legendary, so you can safely run 3-4.
If you happen to have 1-2 real Tabernacles lying around, stick them in the SB where they're pretty good.
EE is quite likely worse than Oblivion Ring these days (and I, personally, don't maindeck that one either), and Crystal Vein has given me nothing but disappointment every time I've tried it out. So no, I think it's no longer a good build if it ever was.Quote:
8. Is the build of the topic starter (see bellow) a good build?
Obviously, I will suggest you try out my build. Assuming you don't have Ravages of War, play 4 Armageddons and either the fourth Magus, Smokestack, or an extra land (I'll likely be piloting Angel Stax in ten days, so I'll have to come up with a definitive choice by then).
You can also look around on DeckCheck.net and take a look at the latest winning lists.
Thanks for all the great feedback! It really helped me to understand the deck a little better :).
1. Smokestack only becomes dangerous if your opponent can also keep up with it. Good examples of this are enemy Crucibles, Life from the Loam, and Survival decks (all perms/witness/squee). Consider siding it out against those matchups. They're your bad matchups btw.. Landstill, Loam, Survival.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maarten
2. Usually its only necessary to have one counter on the smokestack unless its all you have to rely on. If you have a Flagstones in play, one in hand, ect its usually ok to bump it to two and wipe two perms. You can sacrifice the stones and the Stack itself and not have any net lose while your opponent suffered 2 cards. You can always sac your stack after bumping it and drop another a great tactic if you run four. If Crucible is out you can almost always bump to two counters since nearly everything in your deck is a perm or permx2 Flagstones.
3. Tanglewire isnt that great compared to oh.. Armageddon. The deck needs to focus on 4 of's for consistancy. There's just no room. Besides it doesnt do anything if you have Magus out and he's a five star card IMO.
4. No Wrath is :2::w::w: and Magus is :3::w: and believe it or not thats a huge difference when your playing against Rishadin Ports and firing multiple Armageddons. Your opponent can recover from Wrath with one Ringleader or just play out one Goyf at a time. Wrath isnt very effective for that. Magus cleans the opponents board when you play a Geddon and can usually block the shit out of goyfs. He kicks Doran in the nuts and he stifle's Emtpy the Warrens. He's better than Exalted Angel. He straight up replaced her.
5. Yes and concession. This is a Prison Control deck. It wins late game. Though things like turn one Trinisphere or Chalice for 1 + 2 can just win the game also.
6. Yes at one you blow up Nimble Mongoose and Vial and Dreadnought and you can play it through your own Chalice for 1 if you pump colorless mana into it. Amazing.
7. Yes but no one can afford them.
8. Ill look later Im out of time.
I have tabernacles and I don't play them. They would be in my design if they were good enough.
You guys realize I put Ravages in all my lists right? I don't care about price. Tabernacle doesn't make mana and so it's not good enough.
I disagree, I think tabernacle is great. Its faster than magus when it matters like against EtW. No offense Chris but do you still play the deck much?Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinus
I've ran a couple in the sideboard for various reasons. Tabernacle is fragile (it even dies to itself) and you would have to cut lock pieces for it. I don't think you can cut prison, and I do think a 2/6 is better than something uncounterable.
In certain situations it could be good to side a couple of them into the deck. But I don't think you can run even narrower control cards than what the deck already plays.
Do you play the deck much?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Magus of the Tabernacle is a kill condition. Magus of the Tabernacle is capable of coming out fast enough to stop a turn one Empty the Warrens, even on the draw and almost always on the play. Magus of the Tabernacle can -block-, and do it well.
Most importantly, though, Magus of the Tabernacle is a one-sided Wrath of God after an Armageddon and will set you up to pound for the win.
I used to test a UW version of this deck a while back and it was pretty crazy. Here is the list reconstructed from memory:
4 Armageddon
4 Magus
4 Ghostly prison
4 Propaganda
4 Chalice of the void
4 Mox diamond
4 Ancient tomb
3 city of traitors
1 Tabernacle (doubly good in my list since it focuses more on mana denial then board sweeping)
2 mishra's
4 Flagstones
4 tundra
2 plains
5 W fetches
4 Crucible
3 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere
Couldn't one cut the Propagandas for Muses and stay in white?Quote:
Originally Posted by technogeek5000
that they could, i didnt realy notice that card. So what i could do to that list now is...
-4 tundra
-5 fetch
-4 propaganda
-2 mishra's (dont need the extra fat)
+3 wasteland
+1 City of traitors
+7 plains
+4 muse
Thats what I said. Why are you asking me that, did I offend you somehow? Im one of about 3 White Stax players in MA I know of thats why Im opinionated about this deck over ones such as TES, Landstill, Dragonstompy, ect. I feel like I have alot of tournament experience with this deck compared to people who play it with their friends or on MWS. I know I listen to those such as Nightmare or you when it comes to Landstill, I somewhat expect people to believe what I say about Stax or Ichorid specifically.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Ugh oh fight gonna break out on the stax thread. Better get the guys from Landstill to clean this up lmao! Just kidding. BTW Stax is like my hidden girlfriend in the closet. You wanna do it with her, but each time you go to you get this odd feeling that somewhere somehow you know its just not the right time or place to reveal the hidden fantasy to your wife.
That said, how is everyone? Im fine. I wanted to know a matchup analysis is for angel stax. Im considering building it.
Heres what I consider good matchups..Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Goblins, Threshold, TES, Iggy, Belcher, Deadguy, Goyf Sligh, Ichorid
The decks you devestate are ones that rely on 1cc and 2cc strategies that are crippled by Chalice and Trinisphere. On the other end of the spectrum you have game against aggro with Ghostly Prisons, Tabernacle effects, and maybe Exalted Angel.
Even Matchups..
Dragon Stompy, Faerie Stompy, Rock, MUC
Your even matchups have a chance against you because they're mana curve can combat your taxing effects or Armageddons. They have threats that are normally out of range for Magus, Explosives, Ghostly Prison, and Chalice; such as Rakdos Pit Dragon or Sea Drake. They can match your prison sometimes depending who's on the play. Playing a Chalice for 0 can be devestating against Stompy since you knock out their morph cards and moxen.
Bad Matchups..
Landstill, Survival, Loam
Your bad matchups are decks that can put more than one perm on the board a turn easily and survive both the taxing effects and prison pieces. None of the above decks are devestated by Chalice or Trinisphere and have Crucible, Loam, or tutorable artifact/enchantment hate. Armageddon is great against each of them and the best tactic seems to couple it with Exalted Angel to take them down quickly.
Hope that helps a bit.
I sort of agree with Bane's evaluations, with a couple of notable exceptions:
1) Deadguy
I am seriously puzzled that you consider this a good matchup - if you look earlier in the thread, there's a pretty long discussion about how best to solve this very problem, with some people going as far as sideboarding Duskrider Peregrine (Silverdragon) or Gift of Estates (myself).
Everything that Pikula does hurts you: discard is a bitch because you have relatively few business spells. Land destruction is a bitch because your curve is so high. Vindicate is a bitch with STD and a vagina dentata. In fact, most of my wins against Pikula involve just plain broken openings, such as turn 1 Chalice, turn 2 Mox-Crucible-Wastelock, turn 3 Angel.
And I'm not sure if you were including them here, but the latest trend in Deadguy is to splash green for Tarmogoyf and frickin' Pernicious Deed. I've played that matchup a few times and it's a solid nightmare; IMO, the only way you can realistically win is to side in Jotun Grunts and Suppression Fields and hope to manascrew them faster than they can manascrew you.
2) Survival
This has been far from terrible in my experience, either in RGB or BGW builds. While they do in theory have all the tools to deal with your attacks (mana dudes, discard, Survival into Genesis into Harmonic Sliver, etc.), in practice it's a challenge for them to put them to use. Chalice is pretty good against them at both 1 and 2 (Chalice@1 on the play is especially a beating, and so is Trinisphere). Mana denial is super-effective since they run so few lands and mostly nonbasics; Magus is a ridiculous wrecking ball, even more when paired with Prison or, god forbid, Armageddon. And while the singleton maindeck Harmonic Sliver may not make you happy, it's fairly hard for them to get to use it more than once.
In fact, about the only bad card you have against them is Smokestack, which (in my configuration) gets sided out nicely for Suppression Field.
There is a version running around (Tao's, I think it was) that maindecks Pernicious Deed. I can see that one giving you fits, but I would guess it represents only a minimal percentage of SotF lists.
EDIT: And having just played two frustrating games against it, I must add that Welder Trinket Survival is (surprise) quite good vs. Stax! Even that, though, was fairly crippled by a single Magus, and I was a different land (anything but Tomb) away from dropping a second one and sealing the game.
I havent played against he green splash yet but your right, I dont know why I threw that one in there.
Survival usually tools me since Thoughtseize and Therapy are great against you on the play and arent a huge deal for them to lose if you do drop Chalice for 1. Witness can be a nightmare for you when they sideboard Krosan Grips and Magus of the Moon can really slow you down to a crawl.
I also side Suppression Field against them but it can still be rough even if they're paying 2 to vial out a goyf.
Ok, this weekend I tested nilith or nihil's model or what not. I noticed a couple of probobly obvious things about the deck that I want to bring up. This deck is so draw dependant its rediculous. I was also eating alot of my own damage in games which really sucks, and exalted angel was actually win more. Now maybe I tested the deck wrong and played it too controlish rather then tempo ish, but I just couldn't feel the deck.
Have you guys ever considered putting draw into the deck? Horizon canopy/ cycle lands something. I just was soo blown out by how likely I was to lose based on running 25 lands and no draw spells. It was really annoying. Although armageddon was devastating when it resolved. I actually geddoned away a u/w landstill players mana base a couple of pieces at a time and got him to all non basic non dual lands in his deck. That was pretty hot.
So inform me on what to do because im lost. I understand the basic combo's to set up sphere followed by an armageddon on say t3 on the draw t4 on the play. Then follow that up with some other cool tricks and just finish them off with a concession or a beating via mishra's or exalted.
It's a Tomb/City/Mox deck. That comes with the package.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
This is pretty curious. Although not the main one, one of the reasons I like Exalted Angel is how it lets me be more aggressive with Tomb and double-land mana burn.Quote:
I was also eating alot of my own damage in games which really sucks, and exalted angel was actually win more.
I tried Horizon Canopy and was underwhelmed. With Crucible, it's OK but only once I had already made enough land drops. Without Crucible, eh.Quote:
Have you guys ever considered putting draw into the deck? Horizon canopy/ cycle lands something.
I have not tested cycling lands - CIPT scared me off.
(Oh, and while we're talking about lands, I recently went -1 Mishra's Factory, +1 Plains in my list.)
I haven't seen you play so this is just a guess, but you're making the deck sound much more combo-ish than it really is. You do not need to achieve a perfect one-two KO, or even to get a complete lock at all, especially if you have an Angel to apply pressure; what is important is to slow the opponent down to a crawl. Determine as soon as possible which spells in your hand will affect the game the most and focus on resolving those.Quote:
So inform me on what to do because im lost. I understand the basic combo's to set up sphere followed by an armageddon on say t3 on the draw t4 on the play. Then follow that up with some other cool tricks and just finish them off with a concession or a beating via mishra's or exalted.
For example, two Prisons and a surviving Angel are far from a hard lock, but they can still win a lot of games. Ditto for, say, Crucible/Waste and a Magus. Or an aggressive Smokestack@2 against control.
The hardest part is to initially gain the upper hand - after that, your advantage feeds itself, because your earlier lock pieces impede your opponent's ability to answer the new ones. If you have a Flagstones in play and two more mana in hand, cast that Armageddon. Go for the turn two flipped Angel, especially postboard.
Sure, I understand where your comming from and maybe it was just the lands that brought me down. I never saw truly good starting hands other then maybe once, but past that I was either mana flooded or mana short. There was no "medium." I also wish I had played more wastelands more often then not. But who knows. EE absolutely wrecked challices. Made me sad. Usually im the one doing those nasty little tricks.
heh,
I actually tested 3 MD Serum Powder (hence SP) for more consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
http://sales.starcitygames.com/cards...rum_powder.jpg
As you've already figured: STAX is heavily starting hand dependant, so for me SP seemed an obvious candidate to make it MD.
Let's analyze SP as a MD choice for Armageddon Stax real quick:
PROS:
- More STAX consistency ftw!
- it's colorless
- hardly ever a completely dead draw: Mid-/lategame look at it as a bad Mindstone - it still does it's part, it sacs to Smokestack :laugh: , produces mana - you get my point.
- Early game it's not even that bad: I like the fact that you can ramp up to four mana in the face of City of Traitors w/o having to sac it for a new land drop (which can be quite helpful at times) and so on..
- Games 2/3 helps you see your SB hate more frequently & even more importantly earlier than usual.
- Stax can bare to rfg entire starting hands, because it's unlikely to be cut off your crucial cards (all 3/4ofs) that way
CONS:
- You usually don't want to see it mid-/late game
- slightly lowers your must-counter count [yet, potentially provides you defense grids 5-7]
What to cut for SP:
when playing with powders, I ran a max of 24 lands (so pretty much cut 1-2 lands). Cutting 2 lands feels a lot at first glance. You've got to take into consideration though that with the SP-tech you'll get mana-screwed less frequently, plus you have 3 more (potential) mana sources.
Like Silverdragon, I lowered my Smokestack count to 2-3.
And I tested a 3/3 Magus-Angel split.
To be honest, I couldn't come up with a final conclusion about whether it's worth the virtual sacrifice. So I'd be happy to see more STAX.dec players test it and report their findings.
*Keep up the "prison work" :cool:
Klaus
Interesting. Syrom powder sounds good in theory.
What is the version of stax that runs the portal earthquake that doesnt hit characters with horsemanship. This version outdated? I have no idea, im just asking. Why does amrageddon stax not run tangle wire? Why did you cutt down from 4 stax to 3?
I know these are alot of questions but my brain is bleeding from curiousity.
Sun Tower?Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
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Originally Posted by mossivo1986
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Originally Posted by Silverdragon
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Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
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Originally Posted by Nihil
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Originally Posted by emidln
Thanks for the suggestion. This sounds like it could be worth testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
Serum Powder is a great theory, but a very sub-par idea when you really break into the numbers...
Here's the basic underlying math (I'm going to go over this in brief since I'm at work - I'm willing to do more later if someone wants/asks) for a 60 card deck -
Play 4 - ~40% chance of having in opening seven
Play 3 - ~32%
Play 2 - ~22%
Play 1 - ~12%
Serum Powder has the power (in theory) to improve your opening hand on the condition that Serum Powder is in your opening hand. That's combinatorial probability so you multiply the probability of having it times the probability of having an unkeepable hand (assuming you play 4x Serum Powder)...
100% of possible 7-card hands suck -> 40% chance of improvement
75% of 7-card hands stinky -> 30% chance
50% of 7-card hands blow -> 20% chance
25% of 7-card hands terrible -> 10% chance
10% of 7-card hands bad -> 4% improvement
Think about what those numbers mean - (1) you wouldn't play a deck with 100% chance of crap hands (2) I, like most, wouldn't play a deck that blows 75% of the time (3) might describe an all-in combo like Belcher or Ichorid (4) would be a shaky combo but isn't really unreasonable considering all things and (5) is probably realistic if we ignore mana-type issues. So really, you are looking at possibly improving your opening hand <10% of the time, if you play 4x Serum Powder.
I've played this deck for a while now and in all my testing I can honestly say that the most difficult aspect of playing 'Geddon Stax is knowing what hands to keep and mulligan. But, if I'm entirely honest, a lot of that decision has to do with whether or not I know what my opponent is playing. A solid opening 7 against goblins does not translate into a great 7 versus TES. There are, of course, going to be cards that bridge the gap, but not all of them. If you evalute hands that you would keep or toss not based on what your opponent is playing, the numbers really aren't that far off of any other deck in the format. If you take that knowledge about your opponent and 'back-apply' (hindsight being 20/20 and all), you will see an increase in 'bad' opening hands, but Serum Powder isn't the answer - better opponent scouting is.
Furthermore, none of this analysis actually takes into account that by playing 4x Serum Powder, you are diluting the deck and worsening its initial draws. (This, I feel, is often a subtle point when evaluating things and deserves a highlight.)
Here's another long-winded thought experiment. You want to improve bad draws (say they occur 35% of the time), so you find room for 4x Serum Powder in 'Geddon Stax. This has the potential to improve those draws 14% of the time (35%*40%). But Serum Powder does nothing to improve Stax on its own (we currently don't play any 3cc colorless mana generators), so it will show up in a hand we wanted to keep 26% (65%*40%) of the time. Now, just to complicate the matter, let's say that 50% of those hands would've been keepable with any other card Stax plays besides Serum Powder. This means we just killed 13% of our otherwise keepable hands. This means that Serum Powder (as a 4-of) helped us 1% (14% improvement - 13% hand dilution) of the time. I don't think a hypothetical (I say hypothetical because I am making the huge assumption that all of the decks match-ups stay equal with where they currently are with this not-so-insignificant change to the decklist) 1% improvement is worth 4 slots (the numbers go lower for playing less than 4).
There are slots that people can play with and personalize the deck to their own playstyle, etc. etc., but Serum Powder doesn't make the cut for me.
Fred Bear...
Fred Bear, you are ignoring mullingans in your math.
Remember that mulligans + Serum Powder is TEH huge tilt on probabilities, not Serum Powder by itself in the opening seven (see Vintage Ichorid, that can grant a mulligan to one of the four Bazaars in the deck 90something% of the time).
I'm playing this deck for enough time to know that it looses more to its own bad starts (when they happen) than to Deadguy (happily for us a seldom played deck). Enough time to know how great it would be to have something to tilt the probabilities a bit more to our side. I'm fully willing to put some time on testing Serum Powder for the consistency it can bring to the deck.
Not to say that SP isn't a risky card, it is, it might even be lousiest card ever to touch Geddon Stax. But math (and flawed math for that matter) allied to preconceptions, besides not being the same as actually testing the friggin card, is a sure route to imobility.
I'm willing to put in some work with goldfishing opening hands to see how SP feels; obviously it's value increases games 2-3 as you know what you are looking for. My list:
4 Trinisphere
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
4 Mox Diamond
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Armageddon
1 Exalted Angel
4 Magus of the Tabernacle
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
7 Plains
What should I cut for the SP's?
Thinking:
-1 Crucible
-1 Trini
-1 ???
+3 Serum Powder