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It should be noted that Jitte is strong not only in the mirror, but it improves the Burn matchup by adding a lifegain element, and is also strong against any other decks with Jitte (Fish, Angel Stompy, etc.) Jitte is very very bad for Vial Goblins when it's on the opposite side of the table. By running some of its own, they're Disenchants for opposing Jittes at the very worst.
Alright, time to call out a complete retard.
So Bas Postema GP: Eindhoven Top 8, Olivier Ruel PT: Columbus Top 8, also Top 16 Eindhoven, Dennis Yuliadinata GP: Singapore Top 8, Max McCall and John Ripley GP: Seattle Top 8 JUST THIS SEASON are complete donkeys who can't play Magic, right? Nevermind that Eindhoven was an ORDER OF MAGNITUDE larger than most PTQs, or that Columbus was a Pro Tour.Quote:
Quote (frogboy @ Aug. 24 2005,2:14)
I'm also going to slap the next person who thinks winning an FNM means they or their deck is good. It might be, sure, but 99% of people are awful until you get up to like PTQ-level events, where it's more like 85%. Your results are only relevant if others duplicate them in testing or large tournaments.
Well, I guess that leaves you out Sir FrogX0r. T8ing a Grand Prix with Goblins still doesn't give you credibility. Grand Prix does not = PTQ.
Don't speak ever again, as it made me even more stupid for reading it.
Anyhow.
Sparksmith is surprisingly good in the mirror, but it also kills you so quickly that you can only use it a couple of times. Jitte and FTK both suffer from the problem of getting dropped on the bottom when you run your Ringleader to reload. Careful play will allow you to set up some pretty ridiculous plays from a position of parity, but the easiest way to dominate the mirror is with Sharpshooter, extra Siege-Gang Commanders, and heavy hitters like Clickslither.
@kirdape:
If he meant grand prix I agree completely with your call. When i read it I assumes he meant grand prix trials, which may or may not be a fact, i haven't ever been to either.
I haven't ever been at a GPT, so I'll take this chance to ask if they are really that much lower level than PTQs.
Also, what does the goblin deck want to cut for all its sideboard hate against the mirror?
I see many sideboard options but it may be worthwhile to point out the weakest cards in the matchup. I'll go ahead and call piledriver as a rather weak card, since it constantly gets gempalmed/fanaticced/whatever or is blocked and trades.
This may be a better avenue of thinking over the mirror, pick off the weak cards and then see what they can be replaced with, taking our curve into account when doing so, for example, i saw 4sharpshooters mentioned, that would be something fierce to bring in, but wouldn't it kind of overload our curve at the 3cc slot, or rather is it offset by our very own vials.
Chill, Kird. Link and frgoboy are friends IRL. He was just giving him a hard time.
Dude. LinkXwing was being sarcastic about my credibility. I was getting pissed at people who were all "omg I smashed a bunch of scrubs I r00l at magic."
GPTs are exponentially easier events than PTQs are. Grand Prixs themselves are basically very large PTQs, except that instead of 6-1-1 making top eight, you go into Day Two and play people who are actually good.
Saying nonGoblin cards are bad because of Ringleader is kind of facetious, because while it's true that it sucks to flop non-Goblins, if the card is powerful enough that when you play it you're favored to win the game, it's probably worth running. I don't think FTK is that good, though.
FTK isn't that great, Clickslither on the other hand seems really good for the mirror. The 3/3 Body is bigger than any other goblins your opponent has, and can go lethal if you're at a standstill on the ground. It sortov puts you in control of the mirror when it hits play. Idk, what does everybody think of that for some sb tech
My problem with clickslither is that it doesn't seem that much better than siege or sharpshooter. It has the advantage of being good right away if you have other goblins, but then so does goblin king. Clickslither also can't be fetched, which isn't to say that makes it unrunnable, but rather that 2 cards of comperable cost that are fetchable are at least probably better. Siege gang will kill 2 of their guys, and goblin king is just as good, if not better, provided you have a warchief in play (and since clickslither and king both rely on having goblins in play in the first place, it's same to assume that a warchief may be among them).
Jitte, on the other hand, requires nothing but a body, is basically the same cost but deferrable over multiple turns, and not a creature and thus harder to kill. It gets my vote.
You would win the mirror already if you knew how to play it. Jitte or no. There is a clear plan for the mirror match and if you do it and don't fuck up your combat math, you'll be fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
That's rediculous Artowis. Assuming that you're going to be the only one in the mirror who knows that the hell to do is retarded. Each player has the same game plan, therefor one must look for other superior routes to victory in the mirror. Jitte helps. Are you arguing that Jitte isn't good in the mirror?
:;): I guess i gave them an ideaQuote:
Originally Posted by T is for TOOL
Landstill is considering both moat and reverence. See the landstill tread.
Another justification for playing a splash, white for disenchant, green for naturalize or just the black splash for pro-active disruption.
However the sb gets difficult here. You have to gamble here a bit. The best choice to sb against landstill without these 2WW enchantment hosers is :
+3/4 pithing needle +3 red elemental blast (-jitte, -sharpshooter, -1 gempalm, -1 king ...)
However, you will lose against a moat or reverence or humility.
You can otherwise sb in : +3/4 disenchant +3 reb
It's worse than playing needle, but you can get around the 2WW game locker.
It depends what will get popular in landstill : the 2WW enchantments or still the circles, shackles, whatever (all pithing needle-able)
ps : damnit it, it's difficult having a fair discussion, posting some insights after tournament experience with the deck and future metagame predictions...and not getting flamed at, what's wrong with some of you people, please stop it if you don't have real experience with the deck.
If the concern is the post board hate landstill brings in, and it all comes in the form of white enchantments, I fail to see whyanarchy is not an answer, seeing as it also is useful against AngelStompy and such. If disenchants are going to be targeting white enchantments and we are also bring in Reb, why not sub the disenchants for anarchies and have reb as a fallback plan for chill?
Of course, there is still vedalken shackels to worry about, but that is about all that is uncovered by a sideboard plan like that, and its not like REB, Anarchy and Pithing needle are useless out of this match, so they could make for a nice board against landstill.
It seems that a combination of those three should cover most landstill sideboards without being useless in other matchups, it's not like there is no random things to name with needle. Anarchy seems narrow, but if you look at the numbers WW is putting up, and how Mountains keep filling the format, it seems a smart move to have some answer to them in the board. As for REB, i have been boarding it regularly, and it isn't all flashy and all, but it does its job, not that there is no blue in the format that might bring chill in and lock us up.
I tested 15 games of the goblin mirror match a few days back. My dec contained jitte his didn't. Every game I cast the jitte I lost, since it never aquired any counters. One of those games would have been lost anyway but my opponent could always do one of the following things to offset my jitte plan: a) have sharpshooter in play and shoot his blockers b) incinerate my equiped man and steal my turn c) block wih fanatic or prospector and sac before damage. The loss of tempo through the turn spent casting and equiping was vital in all my matches.
In addition to four lost games with jitte in play I hit jitte with ringleader 3 times wich was very annoying, I had the impression that the additional flexibility provided by more tutor targets would help me more in most situations. So what do all the jitte lovers have to say in it's defense?
Clickslitter was great in Block and Standard Goblin decs and definetly owned the mirror match, those goblin decs were running 4 siege gangs though... I still don't like adding a non Goblin dude to side in since it would take up 3-4 SB slots.
The fact is most people DON'T know what to do in a Goblin mirror. Max already explained what -should- be happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
No shit Jitte is good in the mirror -if- you draw it and -if- it gets active. Which is hardly guaranteed considering you shouldn't be having large goblin standoffs in the first place. Jitte is great in every aggro match, if it gets active.
Honestly? I'd much rather have an extra Sharpshooter, Sparksmith or max out Incinerators if you aren't running all 4. They all get active for less mana and less tempo loss than Jitte.
Has anyone considered Tangle Wire?I run 3 in my build and they where usefull in almost every machtup espacially against Vials Goblins hard Machtups(Landstill,RGSA etc..).Combined with Port and Wasteland(which I both run) it is also good against fast combo Decks.
In the Goblin Mirror I think that Jitte is not that great because of the reason artowis mentioned.Goblin King is also a bad card imo because its not a Goblin(no interaction with Lackey,Matron and Ringleader) so you need to run more of them if you want to draw any and then Ringleader gets worse.Pyromancer isnīt a bomb against the Mirror its just an option which sometimes is helpfull.
I would run a full set of Sharpshooters and multiple SGC if I would like to win the Mirror.
King is now a Goblin, refer to 9th update.
I'm fairly new to legacy as far as deck construction goes. I want to build a fairly regular version of mono red vial goblins for legacy. So far I have these:
4xGoblin Warchief
4xGoblin Piledriver
4xMogg Fanatic
4xGoblin Lackey
4xGoblin Ringleader
1xGoblin Sharpshooter
1xKiki-Jiki Mirror Breaker
1xSiege-Gang Commander
1xGoblin Pyromancer
3-4xGempalm Incinerator
4xAEther Vial
2xUmezawa's Jitte
4xWasteland
3xRishidan Port
Mountains/Bloodstained Mire/Wooded Foothills
SB:
4xPyrostatic Pillar
4xRed Elemental Blast
4xPithing Needle
3xAnarchy
The MD has some holes in the creature slot. I need major help with what kinda mana base. Any help is appreciated since you all know more than me.
Thanks,
Rhino408
The build is good but the ports are not needed in the deck in my opinon.
Ports are most definitely very important in the deck, since they let you beat landstill by tapping down Factories and denying them WW, saving you from Wrath of God/Vengeance. I would run 23 lands, with 6 fetches and 4 ports/wastelands. You have forgotton Goblin Matron, and important creature for the deck. Lastly, I would check an earlier/the first list for a starting point.
Jitte is a very good card, however, I think that lightning bolt/flunkies/removal deserve testing in that spot, since clearing a blocker for a 1st turn lackey to hit is some good, and often the tempo loss from Jitte prevents me from casting it.
I have some topics for a discussion:
I am not sure about Umezawa's Jitte.
Vs. control they can react on activation (Swords, Lightning Bolt, Fire/Ice) and gain huge tempo advantage.
Vs. aggro you should win anyway :p .
Vs. combo (read: Solidarity) the 4 mana you need to cast and equip Jitte are too expensive. The 2 counters generated from the equipped creature dealing damage are only useful on your next turn.
My tendency is to remove Jitte from the deck.
What is your opinion on the amount of lands to play and which lands to play?
No discussion needed on playing Wastelands.
Rishadan Ports give you the edge in the Landstill matchup (read dsg123456789's post) and strengthen the mana denial part of your deck.
Is it useful to play Fetchlands in a Mono-R-Goblin deck, especially when you are already playing 4 Wastelands and 4 Rishadan Ports?
What is the number of Lands to play?
I'm planning on playing 4 Wastelands, 4 Rishadan Ports and 14 Mountains.
That's not entirely accurate. It's tempo advantage, but not huge tempo advantage. It's 2 mana in a deck that has tons of ways to cheat casting costs. It tends to have open mana to spare, so the tempo issue is somewhat moot. In any case, we can agree it's not great against control, so it gets sided out in these matchups. As a 2-of it's not harming your consistency game 1 against control in any sginifcant way.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gifted One
Not true. Burn, for example, can beat you fairly consistently if they're maindecking Flamebreak or other mass removal. Burn loses to lifegain, however, and that's something that Jitte can provide. It's very strong in this matchup, and it's becoming more prevalent.Quote:
Vs. aggro you should win anyway :p .
Again, the deck often has these lands open; they might as well be getting used to cast something, since you'll be connecting with Lackey and resolving Vial without a hitch against most combo. Again, the Jitte will come out for your dedicated combo hate, but as a 2-of it's not harming consistency.Quote:
Vs. combo (read: Solidarity) the 4 mana you need to cast and equip Jitte are too expensive. The 2 counters generated from the equipped creature dealing damage are only useful on your next turn.
A point which you didn't address, and it should be, because it's probably the number one reason to consider running Jitte: Jitte itself kicks Goblins in the junk when it's on the opposite side of the table. Lots of random aggro is packing Jitte. Hence, Goblins can theoretically lose to random aggo. By packing Jittes of your own, you mitigate this problem, by using Jitte as a virtual Disenchant.
As an example, I was testing a WW/u build against Vial Goblins quite a bit. I was consistently winning my games (something like 8 out of 10), often because of Jitte. My opponent added 2 Jittes to his Goblins deck, and we tested again. He won the majority of our games, because he often nullified the power of my Jittes with his own. This is worth consideration in a format where Jitte is likely to be very prevalent.
I run 4 Waste, 3 Port, 15 Mountain, no Prospectors. You really want more than 14 red sources in order to ramp to RR by turn 3 for Warchief. 15 seems to work well in this regard.Quote:
What is your opinion on the amount of lands to play and which lands to play? I'm planning on playing 4 Wastelands, 4 Rishadan Ports and 14 Mountains.
One shouldn't forget the 4-8 fetchlands, because those give you deck thinning that can make a difference in the mid-late game by changing the quality of your draws and your ringleaders. Also, its nice to be able to shuffle noncreatures off of the bottom if you need to draw more, after you have used a few ringleaders.
I think 9 mountain 6 fetch 4 wasteland 3 port is your best bet! If you wan't to play it safe adding one port would be okay. Never go below 15 red though, it worked in extended but those decs had 4 prospectors.
The deckthinning argument has been had time and time again. Mathematically, the thinning provided by 6-8 fetches is almost completely irrellevant. In fact, the shuffling effect they provide actually offsets what thinning they might provide, because your Ringleaders are putting non-goblins on the bottom of the deck, where they won't clutter your following Ringleader draws.
In any case, the bottom line is that the extremely miniscule deckthinning provded by fetchlands is offset by vulnerability to Stifle, and the fact that they are dealing you damage. There are other aggro decks in the format that can race you (Burn, for example), and in those matchups, fetchlands are a distinct liability.
The only time the deck should be running fetches is if it's splashing.
First of all: Thank you for your quick answers!
Back to topic:
Umezawa's Jitte
I brought this topic up, because in my testing I always felt like Jitte was a win more card. In about 100 games there was 1 situation where Jitte won me the game: In a Goblin mirror, I was able to activate and attack through all those Gempalm Incinerators, Mogg Fanatics and Goblin Sharpshooters to finallly get the Jitte active.
On the other side I can only remember 1 situaation where an opposing Jitte cost me the game (vs. random Aggro).
Most of my games vs. WW versions (post-SB) came down to: Anarchy or no. You simply have no other reliable way to get rid of the pro-red creatures.Quote:
As an example, I was testing a WW/u build against Vial Goblins quite a bit. I was consistently winning my games (something like 8 out of 10), often because of Jitte. My opponent added 2 Jittes to his Goblins deck, and we tested again. He won the majority of our games, because he often nullified the power of my Jittes with his own. This is worth consideration in a format where Jitte is likely to be very prevalent.
When they wield any sort of equipment (SoFI, SoLS, Jitte, MoM) you're chances of winning decline with every attack.
Burn loses to life gain, of course! But to gain life from Jitte, you have to get it active through all those Flamebreaks and instant direct damage! By instantly destroying the equipped creature, the burn player can trade 1 for 1 and steal some tempo!Quote:
Burn loses to lifegain, however, and that's something that Jitte can provide. It's very strong in this matchup, and it's becoming more prevalent.
Summary:
My testing showed that Umezawa's Jitte only is useful in about 5-10% of the situations I drew it. Being tight on MD slots, I am thinking about removing Jitte from the deck.
I want to know, what other Vial Goblins-players think about Jitte, and what their experiences with Jitte are!
Land count
I'm of this opinion, too.Quote:
The only time the deck should be running fetches is if it's splashing.
22 Lands seem the to be the way to go.
I'm not sure about 15/14 Mountains and 3/4 Rishadan ports. I guess, I'll have to do some testing ...
First of all, That's a good thing. If the burn player is going 1 for 1 on all of your creatures, you're winning that game. Thats burn that would've been thrown at your head, therefor you're gaining life anyways. And again, he's not really stealing any tempo, as you're prolly going to play another creature that turn anyways. It seems that your classification of tempo is a bit skewedQuote:
Originally Posted by The Gifted One
I have removed jitte as well for exactly the same reasons. If burn is a major metagame concern I think I'd play test them some more.
As far as sideboarding goes, what do most of you run, and how do you sideboard?
I run the RW version because I'm a little too attached to StP...and because I'm a stupid noobface. Anyway, here's my SB.
4 REB
4 Disenchant
4 $tP
3 Armaggedon
Pretty standard for RW builds I think. I dont see much combo around here so Pillars/Sirroco weren't necessary. The Geddons used to be Sulfuric Vortexes but I found that I never boarded them in. I would probably make the deck MonoRed if I had the Needles but right now I'm pretty happy with the RW build I have. This SB is probably too dependant on White but I almost always board in $tP and found that I wanted a to drop a Geddon against control decks because at the very least they are a must-counter. Anywho, that's my SB. I realize that it isn't the best but it works great for my meta.
Here' s my board:
3 ruination
3 pithing needle
3 ensnaring bridge
2 anarchy
2 zo-zu the punisher
2 tormod's crypt
I know it's a little unconventional with the inclusion of the bridges, but they have saved my life surprisingly often, considering decks like reanimator and sneak attack are actually played at my local tourney. I don't run pyrostatics because solidarity is nonexistent in my meta, and I've found that not enough people are boarding chills to warrant adding REB's. If you want a less meta-specific sideboard, just switch the bridges with pillars and drop some of the landstill hate for reb's.
Thanks for all the reply. Especially from Godzilla because he's famous for creating stuff and he knows his stuff! Enough with my brown-nosing.
This is the list I've been told to play:
4xGoblin Lackey
4xMogg Fanatic
4xGoblin Piledriver
4xGoblin Warchief
4xGoblin Matron
3xGempalm Incinerator
1xGoblin Sharpshooter
1xGoblin King
4xGoblin Ringleader
1xKiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1xGoblin Pyromancer
4xAEther Vial
2xUmezawa's Jitte
15xMountain
4xWasteland
3xRishadan Port
SB:
2xPyroblast
2xRed Elemental Blast
4xPyrostatic Pillar
3xPithing Needle
3xAnarchy
1xGoblin Sharpshooter
I've heard from people other than Godzilla that the amount of thinning fetches do are irrelevant even though they could make Ringleader better because it can also make it worse.
Rishadan Port is versus Landstill mainly, but they are good in general.
Umezawa's Jitte makes every threat an even bigger one. Tempo loss will happen with all equipment requiring an activation cost of more than 0 so you can't really tell anyone to not play Sword of Fire and Ice in WW because of Artifact destruction or spot removal.
4xGoblin Ringleader
I'd like to chime in two seconds about the Jitte argument.
It wins the mirror match. Plain and simple. If Vial Gobs is prevalent in your metagame, it is your duty as a smart magic player to make sure you have the tech, and while goblin King is fine for the alpha strike, Jitte makes sure your oppoenet can not get any of his threatning creatures to stay along for long. Yes, it is taxing on your mana, but if you expect the mirror or WW (The other BIG reason to play Jitte) it's your best friend. Jitte's counters are colorless, therefore being able to kill everything outside of exalted angel. Almost all the creatures, sans silver knight, will be two for ones then.
Is it really necessary to run pyromancer anymore, since goblin king has found its way into the deck? I know the alpha strike via pyromancer is much larger than that of the king, but I think only one is necessary in the main deck, and the king is never dead in your hand. Plus, cutting the pyromancer would allow you to run four gempalms, which I think is a must.
You do know my post was more concerining Jitte, but yeah, King is good if you can kill them THAT Turn without fault. Otherwise Goblin king is as much of a liability. Plus if you get your king rosted via Gempalm there could be problems there. Anyhow, yeah, Jitte is a house in the mirror. That is all I wanted to say.
@ rhino
That list is only 59 cards.
I agree with scarface that the Pryomancer is unnecessary and suggest you go
-1 Pyromancer
+1 Gempalm
+1 SCG
Siege Gang is a great card to drop to lackey, nets you card advantage, gives the deck some reach, and lets you race COP more effectively.
Maybe there's another goblin we're not thinking about that can be used in the pyromancer slot. I originally was trying goblin wizard but I wasn't really satisfied with the results (though it is awesome against white weenie). Any suggestions?
Goblin Tinkereer that card is busted :)
The pyromancer is not only for alpha strikes. Goblin king is usually just a minor pump (3-4 damage) and it is not usually swinging into mountains, where the pyromancer is a huge pump (9-15 damage) and it doesn't matter what it is swinging into--it is going to leave a gaping hole. More importantly for the pyromancer is that it is a wrath-of-god in the mirror. Tutorable wrath to punish them for overcommiting leads to an easy win for you, by playing out the hand you preserved in anticipation of your game-breaker.
Yeah I was typing and I guess I forgot the Siege-Gang Commander. I still want to have the Pyromancer in the deck for the alpha-strike(or obvious strike) and sometimes it just wraths the mirror which is still decent if you're going to die.
Goblins that could be considered is Zo-Zu, the Punisher which is good versus the random decks that need to play tons of lands to win.
Jitte is good in Goblins and other creature heavy decks despite the tempo loss because it can swing the game with the 4 life you can gain or the destruction of a Piledriver for the mirror.
I can see mainboarding the pyromancer if you run prospectors or some other way to sac it before the end of the turn, but in most cases I would just move it to the sideboard for the mirror and decks that don't put up blockers. Zo-zu is strong against any deck, and it complements the ports and wastelands, so maybe running one or two copies in the MB wouldn't be a bad idea.
@ Carlos:
The Jitte is actually too slow to be that effective in the mirror. By the time you have it active, it's often too late to matter. Jitte is very good against other decks running Jitte, and against Burn, but in the mirror, multiple Sharpshooters is the more effective way to win.