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Honestly, I just tested the new version against DStompy and got crushed. Game 1 he goes first and drops Chalice@1. I can't SDT or Ponder, and he drops RPDragon. Then he Seething Songs, Jitte, Win.
Game 2 I go first and drop Top. He play 3Sphere and I don't have a Mystical in Response. Then he play Chalice @1 the next turn, then Gathan Raiders.
This MU seemed close to unwinnable preboard.
Basically, the faster version was better in the Dragon Stompy MU.
I didn't really want to get into an argument over the new version, but it seems very slow compared to the original list. I just believe you give up too much in order for consistency. This is a combo deck and should stay that way.
Honestly, Sensei's Divining Top does not belong in a combo deck where you want to win as fast as possible. Its just too mana heavy in a deck that doesn't run enough lands to fully utilize it. You already run cards such as mystical tutor, brainstorm, ponder, and street wraiths in order to draw cards necessary to win.
Here is the Iggy Pop list that I've been running to good success so far.
IGGY POP
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
1 Plains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Street Wraith
4 Orim’s Chant
3 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Ponder
1 Infernal Contract
1 Echoing Truth
SB
1 Wipe Away
1 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
2 Extirpate
2 Abeyance
3 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of the Void
There is nothing that isn't comboish about my new list. I can still combo out early against aggro (and sometimes against control given the right hand and appropriate signals from my opponent), but more match wins are generated by waiting until I know that I can win through countermagic than simply hoping they don't have more than one Force of Will and one Daze.Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
Nothing kills you before turn 4 except decks that are susceptible to Orim's Chant and Abeyance. This means the turn 3-4 goldfish that the SDT version normally has sufficient to race the metagame, while being consistent, and even considering that it plays as the control deck in the combo mirror. Street Wraith isn't run in the SDT versions as SDT does nearly the same thing as Street Wraith while allowing for better mana utilization until the combo turn. Paying 1 colorless at some point before you cast Mystical Tutor has actually proven better than paying 2 life the turn that you play Mystical Tutor in my testing. It has allowed me to essentially keep extra cards in hand for my combo turn, even after using LED. I think the issue that some people are having with SDT is that they are activating it every turn instead of doing other stuff. When I've been playing it, I only activate the look at top 3 ability when I am digging for land or have spare mana that I wouldn't otherwise use. To me it's pay 1, then draw a card later with a nice bonus.Quote:
Honestly, Sensei's Divining Top does not belong in a combo deck where you want to win as fast as possible. Its just too mana heavy in a deck that doesn't run enough lands to fully utilize it. You already run cards such as mystical tutor, brainstorm, ponder, and street wraiths in order to draw cards necessary to win.
I did not test (yet) Doomsday in the deck, but without it I found the SDT underwhelming too. Maybe that (as emidln said) I'm playing them the wrong way, but I found them a problem when facing fast aggro (Burn, Goyf Sligh, Domain Zoo and partially goblins, etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrit2000
The main problem that I face when playing a 1-petal 0-Wraith deck is that i can't reach threshold fast enough. And between Death Wish, Draw 4s and Doomsdays if the opponent is playing some burn it could happen that we have to chant him in order to do stuff in our turn.
Long story short, the deck is gaining an advantage vs control and aggrocontrol, but it's losing part of its speed. Someone says that the deck is too much LED dependant, but the way the deck was built (less lands, street wraiths, petals) the deck could easily combo out with cabal ritual, depleting its entire hand and going hellbent for IT on turn 3.
Obv this means it was more grave dependant, but we had plenty of ways to work out the grave hate (Beatdown plan, double tendrils, ETW, bounce, Abeyance, Serenity).
Are the SDT+lands-petals changes worth it or are them just a meta choice?
I love those cards, but are the Doomsday and LDV worth it or just the danger of cool things?
The deck is changing a lot and too rapidly, we probably need a good testing session, including the aggro decks again.
PS. Emidln, would you please post the latest list? I'd like to have some testing once I got some spare time.
I haven't been impressed with the Lotus Petal(less) and Sensei's Divining Top lists at all, the entire deck gets run over by Goblin Lackey a lot, and slowing down to turn 4 doesn't improve the control aggro/control match ups enough to warrant weakening the Goblins match up. The control decks will just adapt to bring in permanent based hate and then use the additional turns for building a counter wall to protect them.
I am beating the living shit out of these lists with every Tier 1/Tier 1.5 blue deck except Landstill, maybe it's on account of having an intimate knowledge of Storm combo, but I seriously think you guys need to figure out that you can't just play some LED based control deck past turn 3. People are too paranoid about counter walls, it's the Counterbalances, Meddling Mages, Gaddock Teegs, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void and Arcane Laboratories that are going to kill you.
That's funny, I beat every Tier 1/1.5 blue deck including landstill with my Doomsday list. Perhaps it's something to do with knowing the ins and outs of my deck, as well as knowing what decks can field what hate and boarding appropriately. Maybe it's mulliganing decisions. Perhaps it's incredibly luck over a few hundred games. In any event, I have no issue at all with Mage, Teeg, 3sphere, Chalice, CB, or any other permanent-basd hate. I'd suggest learning the deck better because without specific scenarios I can't really recommend anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Beating lackey isn't hard at all. It's even less of an issue on the draw than on the play because you know from the outset to play more aggressively. Doomsday can win very fast if it knows there is no counter-based hate, and setting up Infernal + LED has never been very difficult.
As a side note, if anyone who thinks their control deck has a good FT matchup would like to play me, I'd be happy dissuade them of their delusions over MWS.
I would like to see this done. I don't want to sound rude because I know that you are an awesome player, but I just don't see this deck being able to beat all the shit in the world. I playtested one game against DS and dropped a fetch, he goes first turn blood moon. I then have only a blue source the rest of the game. I fail to see how you have the awesome MUs. I would love for you to prove me wrong though, so I really want to see Threshold and Landstill go against this. I just think it is about the same as TES.
I don't agree with most of EmidIns changes, but I have to say DS isn't a hard MU. In the faster version, at least, you just go turn 1 Chant them, Turn 2 win. Alternatively, Mystical Tutor --> Death Wish --> Serenity or Mystical Tutor --> Wipe Away works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
I've went back up to a 3/1 Petal/Fetch Split. Petals add so much to this deck, giving you Thresh for Cabal Rit, fixing mana, and building Storm. However, I like 15 lands more than I like 14.
I've cut top for Street Wraith. Threshold is just so strong in this deck, as is going off early in a lot of MUs. That's why I play 4 BS, 4 Ponder, and 4 Wraith.
I'm still running 1 Doomsday/1 IGG. This was the good thing that came out of these changes for me - realizing that this deck could function with one IGG. I like Doomsday more as an alternative wincon than building the deck around it (or even, semi-around it).
SDT usually should never be played over a better and more effect cantrip, since it will cost you some speed. On extremely fast games, it might just be a bad SW or a non-shuffling Ponder, but it will allow you to go off with Doomsday in case you really need. Against aggro you play like Iggy Pop, anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
As I said already, SW/Ponder/Draw4/Brainstorm made LDV a pretty awsome tutor. SDT doesn't help as much as SW, but you still can get two cards from that pile, which is usually your goal, and win off immediately. The deck's redundancy is the key for this card to work. I'll try to fit those 2 in the deck again and see what happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
emidln, how was your LDV testing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mental
That was just an example from the one time I played it. Getting screwed like that happens. I just think he is overrating his deck.
All you really need to do against aggro is get Doomsday and LED in hand, and Sensei's Top on the table with mana to cast Doomsday and you win the game. It's pretty simple actually, and completely ignores Leyline. I turn turn 2 like this frequently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
It's been okay. Like, it's not visibly better or worse than Mystical Tutor across the board. I don't know if I would want more than 2 of them, and I think I really want my 4th Mystical back.Quote:
emidln, how was your LDV testing?
You only need Doomsday if you see some hate, but, still, yes, Doomsday > IGG. BTW, what I said about SDT is valid on the fast aggro match up only.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
I'm replacing the 4th Ponder and what would be Doomsday 2 or IGG 2 for 2 LDV.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Is doomsday worth running in a 0 SDT version?
In my experience, it's still strong. SW can do the same thing when going off a lot of the time, and serve the same function in DDay piles.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
I wouldn't run 2 Doomsday though, probably 1 is stronger.
No, Doomsday is good without hate. It's an instant win if you can cast it, have top, and then have 3 black left. You just flat out win the game. It's really easy to setup against aggro, which is why I mentioned it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaiminho
That was the list I was testing. I was playing 1 IGG, 1 DDay, 3 Ponder, 2 LDV, 2 Tendrils, 4 Top.Quote:
I'm replacing the 4th Ponder and what would be Doomsday 2 or IGG 2 for 2 LDV.
@ GreenOne
I'm not sure I would run Doomsday without Top. Top makes a lot of the ridiculous come from nowhere wins possible, and it's an extra storm engine to win with a single Doomsday without recurring it. It also enables a lot of the really stupid stuff like Infernal -> Doomsday.
So what beats this deck anyway? It seems like you guys have an answer from everything from Thresh to Dstompy to MUC to TES.
Greeone expresses my thoughts exactly.
I don't test yet Doomsday in the deck, because I will not go for a while to any tournament and I want to test well the version with SDT before.
In my meta I've seen that the format is slow down: many Landstill in top16. In this direction SDT is a great addon and an advantage for the deck because I can sit down on sensei+fetch for card quality with an indestructible manabase against opponent's wastelands without so many pressure on my life points.
The disavantage is that SW can give to the deck a little bit speed against fast decks like aggro, ichorid & combo with its interaction at CC0 with mystical and a fast threshold for cabal ritual.
I'm seeing if the tradeoff SDT vs SW is good enough in these days.
I'm still playing with petals maindeck, but I'm trying also the version with 17-lands, without Petals. This is a further improvement against landstill because I don't play a suboptimal card like Petal against this matchup and I can play finally Mystic Remora in SB also in Legacy. :smile:
Without Petal the disavantages are against fast decks, I'm not sure that the tradeoff in this case is so good. Petals helps to rip the match, fast threshold,...At this point I build a threshold with cantrip, CB, LED, rituals, ToA and tutors. naah, I want a fast deck, with these changes we risk to slow down to much the deck and we haven't in every matchup an Orim in hand to steal a turn.
I've seen that the worst hate, we can meet, is Orim's Chant. What are your answers? Extirpate on first opponent's Chant And then my Chant ftw?
I'm thinking to insert again Pacts in SB, but perhaps Extirpate is more versatile, Pact is dead if we don't start the combo.
If you want, my Solution deck is waiting for a matchup with you. :tongue:Quote:
As a side note, if anyone who thinks their control deck has a good FT matchup would like to play me, I'd be happy dissuade them of their delusions over MWS.
I'm also thinking the same. I'm a conservative player. :tongue:Quote:
The deck is changing a lot and too rapidly, we probably need a good testing session, including the aggro decks again.
Yeah, I'm asking to me if you play against goofy.:tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
Or I'm a bad player (probably) because I lose some matchups with this deck.
Itnot like the deck is winning versus everything. It just have a chance against everything like Threshold decks do. Sure, threshold is not a positive machup, but you can get close to an ok percentage like 40% win. It's not that bad for your bad matchups isn't it? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
It obvioulsy depends a lot on the playskill of both players however. That's why I don't like much matchup analysys done with % numbers.
Not true. Thrash is about even, because they only run FoW to stop Chant.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenOne
CB Thresh isn't even that bad, unless it's UBG.
EDIT: But Top helps that.
I just tested with EmidIn and came away thoroughly convinced that his new list is strong. It can easily race Aggro - he stomped me playing Goblins, going off a turn before I could win consistently, without having to use Chant, and we went 1-1 when I played UGR Thrash. The time he lost was because of a mistake (I guess that we all make them).
So actually I am really attracted to this deck as I like playing combo in general and there is a lot of discussion with innovations in this thread. So before building it I'd like to have a "stable list" to test with, so that I can make sure I am able to pilot the deck. Is the version with Senseis Divining Top and Doomsday the general accepted one or is this just something very cool you are trying out?
Then I still have some questions:
(Why) is Death Dish good in this deck?
When do I board Extirpate in?(Except against Ichorid for example)
What is the Doomsday pile winning against graveyard hate?
Why are 2 Doomsday needed?
Until now I didn't like Cabal Ritual very much in the newer builds as I often couldn't get 7 cards in my graveyard by the time I tried to go of, am I just playing it wrong?
I'm playing it. I'd recommend that you do, but I won't show up at your house with a weapon and command that you do too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muradin
Opponents have a nasty habit of RFGing things that we don't want them to. As tricksy of an animal as the opponent is, Death Wish is our super trick for beating them. Interestingly enough, Death Wish can also find stuff like Extirpate, Abeyance, Krosan Grip, Wipe Away, and Serenity g1 when you might need it.Quote:
(Why) is Death Dish good in this deck?
Except against the obvious graveyard-based combo like Ichorid, it's really good against countermagic and chant effects. This means you'll be boarding them in about every non-aggro matchup.Quote:
When do I board Extirpate in?(Except against Ichorid for example)
There are several. My favorite is designed for use as a target for Infernal Tutor (with a Sensei's Divining Top and at least BBB after Doomsday for a total of BBBBBB after paying for your hellbent Infernal Tutor):Quote:
What is the Doomsday pile winning against graveyard hate?
Cruel Bargain
Lotus Petal
LED
LED
Tendrils
You need at least 4 life before you cast Doomsday to pull this off. If you have at least 8 life, and an extra mana (so 1BBB instead of BBB) you may substitute Death Wish for Tendrils in the pile and find an RFG'd Tendrils of Agony. This also adds more storm. If your LEDs gone, you can use Dark Rituals in their place. If you have 2BBB available after casting Doomsday, you can substitute a Sensei's Divining Top for an LED and generate a couple extra storm by cycling Sensei's Divining Tops a few times.
They're not, but I like the extra one. With two copies, you can actually put Doomsday in your Doomsday pile to generate extra storm if you set it up correctly. This lets you cast Doomsday again generating an extra 5 storm without using the graveyard.Quote:
Why are 2 Doomsday needed?
Probably. I never have an issue with Threshold. Other people claim to (have problems) as well, so it could be that I am just incredibly lucky. I have no idea what is going on, but I can say that I personally do not have problems with Threshold.Quote:
Until now I didn't like Cabal Ritual very much in the newer builds as I often couldn't get 7 cards in my graveyard by the time I tried to go of, am I just playing it wrong?
Can you explain this kill? I'm guessing you:Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
1. play Doomsday
top into Contract/Bargain
2. play Contract/Bargain, drawing top, petal, LED, LED
3. play petal. break it to
4. play Top
5 & 6 play LEDs
break them for six black, top into Tendrils
7. play Tendrils
Where's the other three storm coming from? Are you assuming some sort of rituals and casting of Top prior to Doomsday?
Also, can you explain your 'favorite kill with Infernal Tutor'? I'm guessing you IT revealing a Ritual for a second Ritual, then play both Rituals to get to BBB BBB and three storm and proceed from the Doomsday step above. But that means you (a) had 1BBB without using the Ritual you reveal to IT, or (b) play the IT turn two and on turn three find one extra storm somewhere...so I'm not really sure what's going on.
As BBB is nearly impossible to get from the manabase, I'm assuming you play some other spells. Usually those spells are a combination of Mystical Tutor, LED, Chant, and Ritual, although there any way that lets you have a top on table and a total of six black is fine. The way to do it with Infernal Tutor is pretty similar to the IGG really. You combo normally playing rituals into an Infernal Tutor with hellbent. Instead of needing at least 5 mana to win the game, Doomsday requires 6, but has the advantages of not being vulnerable to Leyline, Crypt, etc and generating more storm. So with BBBBBB in your pool you find Doomsday, and then play from above.Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH
I'm confused as to how putting Doomsday in a Doomsday pile is going to add 5 storm without using the graveyard. Presuming that you have to cast the other 4 cards in your pile, can't the opponent just Crypt the spells that you have cast? You no longer have a 60-card library to make DD piles, just your hand (which may or may not be 0 cards, depending on LEDs)
That being said, the graveyard-independent kill of a single DD is sick. I used to play old IGG, and Leyline was actually extremely annoying. Also, I have one more question: why Serenity instead of Hurkyl's Recall? Just speaking from the point of view of Vintage Long, against Stax all you would do was wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, EOT Hurkyl's, win. Hurkyl's is also tutorable via Mystical.
I'm not sure either one is better. I just like the permanent solution that Serenity offers.Quote:
Originally Posted by someone_unimportant
I also don't understand the Double Doomsday thing, but that's because I've never needed to use it. Normally one Doomsday generates enough storm, if you've played a few accelerants and a protection spell, to end the game. I assume it's a fairly complex and situational kill.
Legacy Stax is aggressive. You can't afford to stand behind their own artifacts while drawing whatever you want (remember your setup will be locked under Chalice or Trinisphere), since there will be some factories, magi and angels beating you ass in the meantime. If not winning the game in the next turn (which is the purpous of Recall), you can cast a Serenity to break the other side of the table in order to unlock your setup spells to win shortly after. Also, if you'd use a bounce spell, it would be Rebuild, not Hurkyl's Recall, since you'd be able to trample that Chalice @ 2. Rushing River already deals with that, anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by someone_unimportant
Stax really isn't that big of a challenge, honestly. Trinisphere is what you should be scared of. At the first sign of stax what you should do is be looking for wipe away, or if they get an extremely agressive hand, you should look for Death Wish for a Rushing River.
I really think you guys aren't playing this right, at least to some extent. Top is a great new development. I disagree with a choice of emidln's. This is leaving the Death Wish in the board. That seems rediculous to me. However, I play in a different metagame, and if he knows his well enough to do without it game one, props to him. I do think that double DD is a decent choice, as you can still pop LED in response to a IT and still get a Doomsday if it is in your hand (something I have repeatedly run into in the very short time I've tested this; might just be my bad luck, though). You still have Brainstorms to get it out of your hand, and Tops to keep from running into it. I think I just had bad luck. I'm still testing a singleton, but I love it. I'm thinking of dumping Ill-Gotten Gains completely. It's been COMPLETELY irrelevent for me.
Earlier posts I saw someone say something along the lines of them actually "having to use a Chant effect during my own turn". This is what I mean when I say you guys might not be playing it effectively. Chant effects were put in here almost soley for this purpose, and then testing showed that they worked like time walks on most occasions. Against stuff like stax and non-counter lists, it's very much a bonus. That's why they are easily maindecked. However, their main purpose is to succeed in an undisrupted kill-turn.
I also read that someone said that combo is supposed to win as fast as possible. This is the kind of thinking that makes you play sloppy. If you want balls-to-the-wall combo speed, go play SI. This, as mentioned previously throughout the thread, is basically thresh with a combo kill. It's not to combo off as soon as possible. It's playing mindgames with your opponent. Bait out counters and other chants. Control the relevent aspects of the board while sculpting your hand, and go off protected. It's just that easy. Sacrificing speed for consistancy is completely acceptable, especially if, as emidln has pointed out, you still consistantly combo off before any other list available, unless it's balls-to-the-wall combo, and in this aspect, as emidln has also pointed out, you act as the control aspect. Against SI, you run chants. You run Extirpate (good on draw-4s, etc.). You should win. If you don't, I suggest practicing more.
This list is the MOST evolving archetype in Legacy, and I even daresay all of magic. Go and look at IGGY POP lists from a year ago. They are drastically different. That was combo.
This is combo-control: The end of evolution. Eventually it's what will rule legacy.
Pce,
--DC
So what is your list right now? Seems like you've got a lot of expierence with it.
Until FT uses Force of Will it is not combo-control, the deck still needs to be fast enough to reduce the amount of disruption it has to face, or adding disruption, tutors and cantrips of its own is just a tremendous mana/tempo sink in an attempt to retain parody.
FT isn't evolving, it's being indecisive. People need to stop and decide what the deck should be aimed at doing and what it actually needs to do IRL,
4 Doomsday
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Lim Dul's Vault
1 Wipe Away
4 Brainstorm
4 Orim's Chant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island
Is one direction I believe "FT" should consider, because if you're going to slow down a turn for Sensei's Divining Top, you may as well concentrate on winning via Doomsday on turn 3 and consider Infernal Tutor your auxillery "Oops, I win" threat.
I'm about 99% certain that Vault > Mystical, because Mystical conflicts with the rest of the 1 drops and being able to tutor thru' Counterbalance and Chalice of the Void at 1 has been critical in its worst match ups.
This "Threshold with Tendrils!" argument needs to stop, because it's bull shit. You can go that route against Landstill or BAD Threshold, but when this deck runs into Balance/Top Cephalid, Balance/Top Dreadnought, Faerie Stompy, AfFOWnity or any control or aggro-control player willing to dedicate MD/SB slots to permanent hate for the combo match up, you are going to be in for a world of hurt.
Don't get me wrong, I like FT, I want to see FT succeed, but stop circle jerking and start taking a realistic look at the deck's problems against competent control or aggro-control or even the rare aggro-control-combo players (aka your worst nightmare) that are prepared for the match up. You'll find that despite all of your disruption, bounce, tutors and cantrips that speed is still, and will always be, your most valuable asset.
If the deck is going to focus on a turn 3 Doomsday kill, what would be the typical stack you would set up after resolving DD.
It's aimed at winning over any kind of hate while maintaining the same style of play. That's the idea of every deck, actually, and this one is doing quite well at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
I'd not run those many Vaults, since they are slow. You have only 15 lands, and that probably slows you down too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
This deck stopped using 4 Ill-Gotten Gains a long time ago. Why the hell would you want to go back there, just replacing it with another gimme-more-storm card?Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Also, the best way to achieve mana for the kill is by accelerating with LED in response to a draw or a tutor. You can't do that if that card is in your hand. I'd say you have limitations here.
This is just wrong... Why do you think the deck is consistent as hell? Because it plays with the library. Do I need to say the advantages of Ponder and the synergy it has with some cards in the deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Gotta disagree here. I mean... I totally disagree with this. You sound like me when I first picked Iggy Pop and didn't like the (good) changes that were turning the deck into Grim Iggy (which would finally lead to a Grim Tutorless deck called Fetchland Tendrils).Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
This has been posted over and over, but anyway... This is the most common pile, requiring 4 life before it all and BBB after casting Doomsday and a top on the table:Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenalpow
Draw4
Petal
LED
LED
Tendrils
Tap Top for Draw4, empty your pool by casting it, draw all but Tendrils. Petal, Top, LED, LED, break them both, tap Top, cast Tendrils. With a single additional mana, you can switch Tendrils for Death Wish for another storm, while requiring a bit more life, since you will be taking half hit three times.
Hi, I have some questions about the sideboard and the boarding plans.
Here is my List:
// Lands
2 [PT] Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [b] Underground Sea
1 [A] Tundra
1 [ST] Plains
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [u] Scrubland
1 [MM] Swamp
// Creatures
3 [FUT] Street Wraith
// Spells
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [LRW] Ponder
1 [PT] Cruel Bargain
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
2 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
1 [TSP] Wipe Away
2 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [JU] Death Wish
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
SB: 3 [WL] Abeyance/ Duress
SB: 4 [WL] Serenity
It's the standard list, just replaced a wraith for the 4th ponder.
Sideboard:
Disrupt vs discard?
Or Duress?
What is the boarding plan vs....?:
Ubw Landstill:
(They will board in: Extirpate and mage)
I suggest:
-3 Street Wraith
-1 ???
for
+4 Dark Confidant
What is with Duress/abeyance or echoing truth?
Ug/r *****:
-3 Street wraith
+3 Duress
Ugw *****
-3 Street wraith
+1 echoing truth
+...? (Confi)
Random chalice deck
-3 street wraith
-1 mystical
+4 Serenity
What's with Dragonstompy and Staxx and vial gobbos?
thx for the help.
Being a Stax player, I must say I love the Fetchland Tendrils match-up. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
We love the Stax matchup too. I was a Stax designer and can verify that for stax to even have a remote chance they need EE/ORing, fast 3sphere+LD, or a quick Chalice 1/2/3 (all 3 are required to not get blown out by Serenity or Rushing River and the timetable is by turn 3-4). Postboard, their only hope if they don't have the nuts Trini + LD (turn 2 Smokey or turn 2/3 Geddon) on the play for the opening three turns is FT having abysmal draws because Serenity, Rushing River, or ETruth are coming on turn 3. When Stax is on the draw, it fears turn 1 confidant (from the older 4 Petal builds) or turn 1 top (from the newer 17 land builds). Either of these probably means game over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
I think I posted a sideboarding guide for a SW + Petal list somewhere on the storm boards. Against Stax, you bring in Serenity, Rushing River, ETruth, and Dark Confidant. Against Dragon Stompy, you want Serenity, Rushign River, and ETruth. Against Landstill, you want Extirpate, Abeyance, Massacre, Death Wish, and Sudden Death/Wipe Away. Against UG/UGb Thresh you want Abeyance, Confidant, (Wipe Away if they have CB, Death Wish if it's UGb) and Extirpate. Against UGw/UGr Thresh you want Abeyance(, Wipe Away if they have CB,) and Extirpate.
Against discard, disrupt isn't horrible, but Confidant is just better. Duress is terrible (please don't play it).
You always have your singleton Rushing River/Wipe Away/Echoing Truth against EVERYTHING your opponent plays, I see.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
1 card against approx. 20 that can hurt you. That's still 19 chances to beat you. Chalice 1 hurts you teh most since it shuts of Dark Ritual (the most efficient earlygame manaaccel) and like 100 other spells like SDT, Ponder, Brainstorm and Mystical Tutor... actually everything that generates cardquality to find that 1 Rushing River.
Postboard Suppression Field can probably annoy you as well since you are relying on SDT and Fetchland a lot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
In closing, yes, I always do have it. When I don't, I mulligan.Quote:
Originally Posted by FT Sideboard
This is best argument I've heard in favor of Stax in a long time. This would indeed be rough, requiring nonbasics or Serenity.Quote:
Postboard Suppression Field can probably annoy you as well since you are relying on SDT and Fetchland a lot.
It should be noted that lots of Stax sideboards have Seal of Cleansing in them, along with Suppression Field. What does FT do about Seal > Serenity, and Suppression Field > fetches/SDT (if your version if playing SDT)?
4 Serenity + 1 Rushing River + 1 Echoing Truth. That's 6. If you are on the play, you also have the chance to Mystical for them, so add 4. If they don't get Chalice @ 1 turn 1, that's even more chance. And it keeps going. Also, there's the double draw from a Confidant coming on turn 1 or 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
For lists that play it, Lim-Dul's Vault is golden against Stax. Nice Chalice @ 1. Seriously, there's nothing better than grabbing the last combo piece plus Serenity. You won't even need a draw in hand, since you will have to wait until next turn anyway.
I've always had it sided in against me. With this new Top list, it's even more annoying, but you still have more than half of your lands as non-fetchlands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
If they, on top of all this, add Smokestack, then the clock is ticking and the game is much likely in their favor. But it's a lot of cards for a deck that doesn't have search or draw cards: 2 mana land, W mana source, Chalice, Suppression Field, Seal, Smokestack. Considering the game has taken a while to get to this, you will have 2-3 mana to activate fetchlands and top, so they better have that Smokestack.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Ok, at least, both of you are confessing that it can indeed get quite annoying for FT against Stax, but I will also give you that you can beat Stax of you know what to do from the beginning.
you also have chances at winning through an early chalice without bouncing/destroying it.
Stax plays Chalice@1 and passes the turn. You go 2xLED, land, petal, IT -> GG.
I never found stax to be a bad matchup, but never tested against MD Suppression Field.