-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mister Agent
Ponder only filters cards while fact or fiction is a powerhouse in card drawing. Besides fact or fiction thins out the deck more considerably then ponder can ever do so then you will have a much better chance of finding what you need.
Well... it's just that it kinda sucks to be unable to find the right answer without mulling into it. This is the reason why we run Brainstorm, but running Ponders in addition won't really be a bad idea.
Quote:
Yeah that's what I essentially meant. Considering landstill is still viable because of its strong draw engine and ponder does not have any part in that.
It contributes to the amazing draw engine by finding you card draw. I'm sure that in T1 if BSS back then only functioned off 4 Impulse, 4 Fact or Fictions, and 1 Ancestral Recall, I'm sure Landstill can pull this off. What I'm trying to get at is that Ponder isn't bad in this deck; it's a speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thefreakaccident
The main issue that ponder has with this deck, is that we usually want to be playing the reactive role early-midgame... which means taping lands on your own turn is bad... meaning, you will have to wait on your draw spell for a later turn (for fear of what the opp might do)... I think the draw spells should stay as they are, between FoF, brainstorm, and standstill...
I disagree. If you're on the play, Ponder can help find you FoW and Standstill to set-up your 2nd Turn against slower decks. To be honest, the only Turn you don't want to play this card is Turn 2. It can still aggressively be played Turn 1 because you can telegraph that you're playing Thresh, hence your opponent will more than likely skip his first turn and just make a land drop because of the fear of Daze. You got an easy 1st Turn which is lead up by a deceiving Standstill Turn 2. Turn 3, you can Tap one land out because you only ever need 2 lands open for Counterspell.
Quote:
I really do not see what the discussion is... ponder just isn't good enough for landstill, end of story.
I know Ponder isn't that great in Landstill, but what I'm trying to defend here is that Ponder isn't that bad of a card in Landstill. The fact that we were so quick in shooting down such a speculatively powerful card makes me cringe.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Yeah I don't think there is anything wrong with running ponder in landstill at least for preliminary testing. I just don't think ponder is necassarily useful in landstill considering cantrips do nothing to opposing threats or creating other forms of beneficial CA in landstill.
Landstill has wide range of tools for the early game which can give little reason to include ponder. But even if the landstill player doesn't draw those early utility cards the deck is resilient enough to recover quite efficiently.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mister Agent
I just don't think ponder is necassarily useful in landstill considering cantrips do nothing to opposing threats or creating other forms of beneficial CA in landstill.
It does do something to opposing threats; it finds answers. Standstill doesn't do anything against opposing threats; it requires that you be in a dominant board position in order for Standstill to be played.
Quote:
Landstill has wide range of tools for the early game which can give little reason to include ponder. But even if the landstill player doesn't draw those early utility cards the deck is resilient enough to recover quite efficiently.
What if you don't find those answers? Ponder at least does that, which allows you to move into midgame.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
What would you be cutting from the main decks to get the ponder into the list?
Utility spells? Power draw? Lands?
There isn't much to take out... without weakening the deck significantly in one way or another.
The lists are getting tighter and tighter nowadays... which is why I am so skeptical about trying to fit these additional cantrips into the deck.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Well like I said if you feel ponder should be tested in landstill then there isn't anything wrong with testing. If you feel that you think it's beneficial then run it. Either way though why fix something that isn't broken? Landstill is still capable of recovering against opposing odds with or without ponder.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thefreakaccident
What would you be cutting from the main decks to get the ponder into the list?
Utility spells? Power draw? Lands?
Exactly what this card is going to fill; utility slots. I'm saying Ponders are better than Stifles, if some people think Cunning Wish is clunky.
Quote:
There isn't much to take out... without weakening the deck significantly in one way or another.
Of giving you more control over what your future draws will be.
Quote:
The lists are getting tighter and tighter nowadays... which is why I am so skeptical about trying to fit these additional cantrips into the deck.
I doubt it. So many decklists have random slots that needed to be filled in. I just happen to think that Ponder might have a place there. I never really said run a playset of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mister Agent
Either way though why fix something that isn't broken? Landstill is still capable of recovering against opposing odds with or without ponder.
Because it needs to be explored?
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citrus-God
Because it needs to be explored?
Well you certainly can test ponder in the other utility slots I never said I was against testing the cantrip.
One of the greatest aspects of landstill you can basically reshape the deck for your metagame. Landstill is a adaptable deck and the archetype continues to strive on innovation.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
@3Deuce and @IronStickman
Ive been thinkin that playing full set of Faeries instead mishras and lettin space for 4 wasteland+1 A.Ruins is the way to make a strong mana base because Factories are really clunkies is we really have a moat in play , for sure our opponent will have tons and tons of creaures in play , and what we need is evasion which F.Conclave provides, this land also produces blue in order to play c.b as soon as possible
the list will develop like this:
1 Eternal dragon
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell // in here I'm thinkin in cuttin 1 out instead 1 platinum Angel as supreme W.C
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Counterbalance
1 Oblion Stone
1 Scroll rack
1 Pithin needle
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Oblion Ring // this is the slot of 1 less E.E
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives // only 1, do not like because of nedle replaced by O.R
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill // I'm not sure if 3 is the correct number mayb -1= +1 Jace .B
23 lands // Is 23 in this archetype enough ,I think so we run senseis and S.Rack
1 Academy Ruins
4 Faerie Conclave // four we want to draw them ALWAYS in our opening hand
4 Flooded Strand // 6 as minimum number of fetches
3 Island
1 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra // -1= +1 hallowed fountain? we wont be able to cast humil or moat if we are extirpate full set of Tundra...
4 Wasteland // to support mishras Factory we can really make an easy lock wasteland-crucible having access to 4 virtual crucible.
I really think Platinum Angel belongs to this archetype but I dont think what to take out, as well as a win cond the mindslaver, and now we'll have from 1 cost to 7 options to E.Tutor.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
One thing we must decide first is wehter to play Humility OR Moat.
Humility has the advantage of shutting down many problematic abilities of creatures and works greatfully with factorys. However, it doesn't avoid 1/1 hordes and makes our win conditions substantially slower (decree).
Moat however, will prevent damage while it stays around and enables us to play better wincons: dragon, exalted angel> platinum angel (think it is not tutoreable but its a lot cheaper and it cant be dienchanted) and hoofprints (this last is NOT a decisive wincon). On the downside, it works awfully with factorys.
The only flaw I see in landstill as a deck is that it doesnt have a clock, this situation is even more critical in this deck since you must leave mana open for counterbalance while finishing of with a factory.
Another point is that this archetype is not particulary viable at the moment due to the numerous artifact-enchantment hate. However, as i said, it depends much on the metagame so I think its worth a try.
My decision about humility/moat?
Card availability is a matter when it comes to moat,
Humility is a bit better at the moment due to arrising decks like survival/painters
So this is a list I would play:
TOPSTILL (as the creator called it)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
3 Standstill
4 Swords to the Plowshares
3 Enlightened tutor
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 O.Ring
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered explosives
2 Decree of justice
1 Eternal dragon
1 Control Magic
2 Sensei' diving top
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Mishra's factory
1 Wasteland
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
4 Tundra
4 Island
2 Plains
Sideboard (Some players dillute it excesively, playing to many wish targets)
3 Hydroblast
2 Tormod' crypt
1 Cop Red
1 Cop Green
1 Seal of cleasing
4 Meddling Mage
3 Runed Halo
Obviously this is not defintive, there are other cards that might deserve inclusion (such as wheel of sun and moon). I have cut down needle since it will invalidate your own cards in the mirror, mage is a better card . PLease suggest any other cards you would include.
The deck needs some testing though (I won't be able to play this deck in the near-future however)
By the way, Factory>>>>>Conclave despite conclave giving blue. Think that factory is a 3 defence while conclave is 1.
If the mirror match-up is your concern, i think that the crucible is determinant. You'll have better access to it via tutor and it is recuerable via ruins (that can be fetched by tolaria west)
you'll be grateful of playing 6 basics when you test the deck:wink:
The Control Magc slot is personal preference but maybe I should put another 3cc blue enchantment such as propaganda or threads of disloyalty.
Oblivion stone is an interesting card (tutorable, good cc for balance), but perhaps it is too slow and it is not inmediate. WoG is always secure.
@Pelikanudo
I'll be happy to work and develop more thoroughly this archetype. It is quite risky to play a card like counterbalace however (at times it is quite inconsistent).:cry:
Any suggestion about the list? Perhaps if we decide upon a list we can start to look closer against other matchups. My testing time is quite limited though:cry:
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ironstickman
One thing we must decide first is wehter to play Humility OR Moat.
Humility has the advantage of shutting down many problematic abilities of creatures and works greatfully with factorys. However, it doesn't avoid 1/1 hordes and makes our win conditions substantially slower (decree).
Moat however, will prevent damage while it stays around and enables us to play better wincons: dragon, exalted angel> platinum angel (think it is not tutoreable but its a lot cheaper and it cant be dienchanted) and hoofprints (this last is NOT a decisive wincon). On the downside, it works awfully with factorys.
:
Well my friend what I intend to do in this deck is to establish a counterbalance -X engine and next, to use our silver bullets to handle the diffents threats
About Moat and Humilty I have to say that are different cards and not comparable, I mean they stop creatures but in different ways, Humilty handles cards like creatures with abilityes and flying creatures , Moat non flying creatures and non creatures with abilityies, therefore we HAVE to put both of them in base.They both form a great puzzle Simple.
Respect the single winCon , I 've been thinking In plati, rocket launcher
what Ive clear in mind is that It MUST be Enchantment OR artifact:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ironstickman
The only flaw I see in landstill as a deck is that it doesnt have a clock, this situation is even more critical in this deck since you must leave mana open for counterbalance while finishing of with a factory.
:
I do not intend to beat any deck with factoryes , for sure our opponent will have tons of creatures and we expect he has no many with flying ability
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ironstickman
Another point is that this archetype is not particulary viable at the moment due to the numerous artifact-enchantment hate. However, as i said, it depends much on the metagame so I think its worth a try.
My decision about humility/moat?
Card availability is a matter when it comes to moat,
Humility is a bit better at the moment due to arrising decks like survival/painters :
well the only artifact/ench hate we must sacrie are the krosan grips . simple but thats why meddlinmagte makes sense
the other problem is E.E due t o its evasion ability for c.b thats why we play 1 main deck Nelde
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Well, the problem I see is that if you play both Moat and Humility all your wincons will be affected:
your decree and factory's will be a colorless land and a bad cantrip under moat, whereas your platinum angel or eternal dragon will be an overcosted 1/1. I do however, include dragon since it is a mana fixer and it is great when humility isnot around or gets destroyed.
On the other hand, there will be times where you'll have your adecquate wincon and the right enchantment... So i guess you might be able to play both in the same deck without conflict between them (as in the list Chaos gives). I'm not quite sure...
Why do you necessarily need your wincon to be tutoreable?, (crucible is by the way)
As for the list Chaos gives,
yes it is quite what we are looking forward to , though its sideboard is not convincing for me
note that it plays 3 wasteland, whereas I 1 waste + ruin + tolaria
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Just an observation. I've found that I like running x1 Nev. Disk in place of one Wrath of God since it allows you recurrable sweep with Academy Ruins.
That makes my creature control package
x2 Wrath of God
x1 N. Disk
x2 Humility
x3 EE
x4 StP
Funny enough, it helped me out versus an Elf deck. I've been playing this deck for a week now and haven't lost a full match.
My board is pretty standard for those running Wishes but I've been keeping one E. Plague in place of Pulse of the Fields since it's tutorable post-SB with Wish>E.Tutor. I haven't ever found a need for Pulse but I also haven't played against Burn. I still live in fear of Goblins.
Two general questions, how is the Goblin's MU and what is the boarding plan?
I assume standstill comes out because of Vial, M.mage comes in for blockers
I was thinking something like this:
-4 Standstill
-3 Cunning Wish
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-2 Counterspell
-1 D.o.J
+1 Engineered Plague
+4 Meddling Mage
+3 Runed Halo
+1 BEB
+1 Slaughter Pact
+1 E. Tutor
One other question, do you generally choose to play or draw with this deck? When playing MWC I always choose draw (unless G2 vs combo) for the extra card... with this deck I feel better having access to counterspell and standstill sooner then getting the extra card.. When I started I was always choosing to draw but now i've been leaning the other way.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Well, if you choose play you'll be able to cast an early standstill more easilly since you have a more established board.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
It depends on the Match up... Against an unknown deck though, you should always chose to play, as it gives you more options when trying t answer early threats....
I usually choose to draw against opposing control decks, but that is usually about it.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
torgar
Just an observation. I've found that I like running x1 Nev. Disk in place of one Wrath of God since it allows you recurrable sweep with Academy Ruins.
Do you really need that when you already have Engineered Explosives? I've found recurring Explosives to be brutal in a variety of decks, and it doesn't come into play tapped either. I'm not against diversifying the sweepers per se, I'm just sceptical of how much the "you can Academy it" argument is worth.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Illissius
Do you really need that when you already have Engineered Explosives? I've found recurring Explosives to be brutal in a variety of decks, and it doesn't come into play tapped either. I'm not against diversifying the sweepers per se, I'm just sceptical of how much the "you can Academy it" argument is worth.
Nevinyrral's Disk was a try to have a card in the MD that plays/acts like Pernicious Deed. In theory, they are both the same: You play them, pass the turn, take 10 damage and then ignite it the turn after ftw. (well, hopefully).
The thing is that you (actually) never want to tap out for Pernicious Deed in the same turn just to sweep everything for 4 (or 3, insert a ridiculously small amount of mana in here) and then not having mana open for Counterspell or Standstill (which would be great at that moment). Nevinyrral's Disk sweeps everything for 1 Mana, and it's also less vulnerable to Stifle and colorless.
So it's basically a proxy-Pernicious Deed which can be recurred, giving you a different, slightly worse Wrath-effect, but in exchange gives you a very effective out against Chalice-aggros and Stax. You can tutor it as well when needed, but this is an obvious one...
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
And having Disk can circumvent a Needle on EE. I just find it more versatile and I hate drawing two Wraths early...
And occasionally the deck wants to blow something up with a higher CC than 3.
Any comments on the Goblins MU/boarding style?
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
torgar
Any comments on the Goblins MU/boarding style?
As for boarding against Vial Goblins, boarding in Meddling Mage against them is bad. Here's how you should board against them though;
-2 Cunning Wish
-2 Standstill
+1 BEB
+3 Runed Halo
Or something like that. You really shouldn't board in Mages because they're just a road block if you draw into them.
If you run E-Plagues in the SB, I recommend you replace Runed Halos for boarding. So yes, I'm saying run 3 copies.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
torgar
And having Disk can circumvent a Needle on EE. I just find it more versatile and I hate drawing two Wraths early...
And occasionally the deck wants to blow something up with a higher CC than 3.
Any comments on the Goblins MU/boarding style?
Nevi Disk is actually really good as a one or two of due to it's ability to dodge stifles in a thresh matchup, and it makes you mono white stax matchup better because you clear their whole board as opposed to one or 2 lock pieces.
As far as the goblins matchup is concerned, when on the draw, I almost always take out at least 3 standstills due to their powerful turn 1 and twos. Aether vial, goblin lackey, and piledriver can all hurt your standstill, if not make it completely useless. You need the STP if they play a lackey to make your standstill have any merit, or the FOW for the Aether vial.
On the play though, I will only board out 2 standstills because they only have one turn to ruin your turn 2 standstill hand.
What to bring in is completely dependent on what if at all you splash a third color, and what SB choices you make. I splash red and just pyroclasm them out of the game.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ChiiMagic
Nevi Disk is actually really good as a one or two of due to it's ability to dodge stifles in a thresh matchup, and it makes you mono white stax matchup better because you clear their whole board as opposed to one or 2 lock pieces.
Disk is only good if we started the game out with 40 life. Against Threshold, timing is extremely crucial because if a Disk resolves, you still have to take 8 damage, while compared to WoG, you can just wipe the board.
Quote:
As far as the goblins matchup is concerned, when on the draw, I almost always take out at least 3 standstills due to their powerful turn 1 and twos. Aether vial, goblin lackey, and piledriver can all hurt your standstill, if not make it completely useless. You need the STP if they play a lackey to make your standstill have any merit, or the FOW for the Aether vial.
You can keep Standstills in only if you're boarding in Plagues or Circle of Protection: Red.
Quote:
On the play though, I will only board out 2 standstills because they only have one turn to ruin your turn 2 standstill hand.
I believe you need alternative card draw for this. I say run Tops maindeck so Standstills dont look bad against Goblins.
Quote:
What to bring in is completely dependent on what if at all you splash a third color, and what SB choices you make. I splash red and just pyroclasm them out of the game.
Splash Black for Extirpate which is good against Ichorid and Plague which is good against Goblins and Ichorid.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
With Konsultant's recent win with UWg Landstill, what are people's thoughts of taking cards like Humility & Wrath out for something like Tarmogoyf?
Something along the lines of:
//lands (24)
3 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
3 Plains
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Academy Ruins
//Control (17)
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Krosan Grip
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
//Win conditions (6)
3 Decree of Justice
2 Eternal Dragon
4 Tarmogoyf
//Digging (10)
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Fact or Fiction
You'd essentially be playing a deck similar in spirit to It's the Fear or VoroshStill, just with a heavy concentration on White for rediculous win conditions like DoJ and Dragon. Granted you would be losing the power of cards like Wrath & Humility in exchange for the ability to change roles into the beatdown with cards like Goyf when the opportunity presents itself.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Honestly, I think Humility is such a strong card against anything that runs aggro that it's better to just not run Tarmogoyf and simply run Humility. Very few decks actually win without aggro and Humility is a powerhouse since very few decks run answers to it maindeck.
Honestly, I think Landstill needs 4 Thoughtseize in the deck somewhere. The card is just so rediculously strong for the strategy of this deck and it improves almost every matchup. The ability to know what the opponent is playing on turn 1 of game 1 in a tournament is also invaluable.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Good point. I have been wondering lately why I don't maindeck extirpate as it comes in against almost every matchup, although it would be tough to fit four.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thefreakaccident
I have recently moved the humility to the board, as I am seeing less and less pure agro, and more and more agro control (both black and blue), which makes humility slightly less attractive, especially if they are only going to have 1-2 threats on board at a time... (why make them 1/1s, when you can just kill the crits?)
My, that's some backwards reasoning, isn't it? If they run fewer threats, then Humility becomes better, not worse, because they can't overwhelm you with lots of 1/1s. I have won through a Humility with Goblins several times; I don't remember that ever happening with Threshold.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
So you say that "Humility sucks because Grip exists"? Whether that's true or not, it's unrelated to the point I was making (Humility gets better the fewer threats your opponent runs). Unless you meant that few creatures = Tarmogoyf = Grips in the board, which doesn't really apply since EVERYONE boards Grip these days anyway.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Humility is one of the strongest reasons why landstill splashed white in the first place. If you are paranoid about 1/1 creatures causing you to lose games play more decree of justice. Even when your opponent boards in grips the disadvantage of that is minimal compared to the actual card advantage that humility provides.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I apologize for the nonsense I was posting earlier.... Humility is strong, as I had said countless times.
How has the Ajanis been doing in people's sideboards?
In theory it is good (gaining a continuous stream of life, and force them to redirect additional burn to kill him is all around strong).
I was not of clear mind earlier, so please just ignore what I was saying :cool: .
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I think Ajani is too slow, too expensive and not effectual against a serious beatdown rush. If you want gradual life gain, I'd opt for Pulse because you can Wish for it. The sideboard is too tight as it is for Ajani. Just my opinion.
Another consideration- I might agree that Crucible isn't necessary in the main... I've been running one and I find in most matches if I'm abusing it, I'm winning already and I almost never use my first Wish to go E.Tutor>Crucible. The only MU I really want it is against control mirrors. I'm usually protective enough of my Mishra's as it is and using land drops for chump blockers isn't a winning strategy most times in early to mid stages.
I considered Shackles in that spot but the deck doesn't run enough Islands to consistently steal Goyfs.
Right now I've relegated my lone Crucible to the side (since it is powerful enough I want it in some MU) and replaced it with a Runed Halo. It's almost never dead and is tutorable as well. I don't know if removing Crucible justifies still running a single Wasteland main but I don't want to lose the option of taking out opposing Academy Ruins/Volrath's Strongholds. Perhaps maindecking a single Needle for Volrath's and randomness instead? Just some thoughts.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thefreakaccident
How has the Ajanis been doing in people's sideboards?
In theory it is good (gaining a continuous stream of life, and force them to redirect additional burn to kill him is all around strong).
It makes huge tokens on Turn 5 which swings on Turn 6. I've beaten Aggro-Loam like that in testing before. The constant Life Gain is better than Pulse of the Fields because it doesnt require mana and you dont need to be losing to abuse it.
The pump is amazing. It makes cycling Decree for a stellar amount into something lethel, like cycling DoJ for 5. Now that can't be dangerous, until Ajani does his thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
torgar
Another consideration- I might agree that Crucible isn't necessary in the main... I've been running one and I find in most matches if I'm abusing it, I'm winning already and I almost never use my first Wish to go E.Tutor>Crucible. The only MU I really want it is against control mirrors. I'm usually protective enough of my Mishra's as it is and using land drops for chump blockers isn't a winning strategy most times in early to mid stages.
The only time I have never found Crucible win-more is against Threshold, ITF, the mirror, and LftL decks.
Quote:
Right now I've relegated my lone Crucible to the side (since it is powerful enough I want it in some MU) and replaced it with a Runed Halo. It's almost never dead and is tutorable as well. I don't know if removing Crucible justifies still running a single Wasteland main but I don't want to lose the option of taking out opposing Academy Ruins/Volrath's Strongholds. Perhaps maindecking a single Needle for Volrath's and randomness instead? Just some thoughts.
If you want to combat Stronghold/Academy Ruins, I recommend you run Dust Bowl. As for Crucible of Worlds, you can always board it in. You only ever need it against Control decks really. A maindeck Needle would work too, but to be honest, I think I'd rather have Sensei's Divining Top in that slot. This deck really lacks late game leverage at times and SDT helps fix some of it. Running SDT also permits you to abuse velocity.
@Freakish777: When you run Goyfs, you should really consider cutting DoJs from the deck. You're doing this because you lack decent control cards for the early-midgame and they dont synergize with Goyfs.
I built a spin-off of Operation Dumbo Drop using Goyfs, Vitu-Ghazi, and Garruk.
// Lands 23
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Vitu-Ghazi, the City Tree
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
2 Plains
2 Island
// Creatures 7
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
// Spells 30
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Standstill
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Wrath of God
3 Engineered Explosives
// Sideboard 15
4 Meddling Mage
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Runed Halo
2 Decree of Justice
The plan is to use Ghazi to produce tokens and protect Garruk until you can build up an assault of elephants, tokens, and Goyfs trampling over the opponent with Garruk's pump effect as the game stalls. This deck is extremely effective against Threshold and ITF in testing, but was terrible against Landstill unless it can resolve a Garruk, which can really win for you even if the opponent lands a Humility down. I might cut a Ponder and another card to fit in 2 Grips.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citrus-God
The only time I have never found Crucible win-more is against Threshold, ITF, the mirror, and LftL decks.
I don't know your meta but my meta is full of Threshold and similar decks. There are many decks which use Stifle + Wasteland and you have to face at least one LftL oder Eternal Garden. That's why I wouldn't cut the Crucible.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ranarion
I don't know your meta but my meta is full of Threshold and similar decks. There are many decks which use Stifle + Wasteland and you have to face at least one LftL oder Eternal Garden. That's why I wouldn't cut the Crucible.
Soo... we have an agreement? I always found Crucible good against Threshold, assuming I found a Wasteland.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
@ Citrus god--
That list seems interesting, and the inclusion of ponder for that build makes a lot of sense... you might even be able to cut a land for something... I have never been an advocate for goyf in landstill, but for each his own, he is still solid.
Your build may have merit, and it is very creative... Kudos to you sir.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citrus-God
@Freakish777: When you run Goyfs, you should really consider cutting DoJs from the deck. You're doing this because you lack decent control cards for the early-midgame and they dont synergize with Goyfs.
This doesn't make sense at all. The reason I'm suggesting Goyfs is to create a version that shifts the focus from not losing to actively winning. DoJ also wins games, hence keeping it and Dragons in. They have synergy in that they both reduce your opponent's life total. Additionally, DoJ + Goyf is useful in situations where your opponent has a two Goyfs down to your one. The attack, you cycle DoJ for 2, draw your card, take down a Goyf, and take no damage.
Against opposing control decks, you get to overload them with threats instead of drawing cards that only work when they play a threat of their own.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
What's about Wake Thrasher in a non-G Version?
Allows you to still play b without weaken your Manabase
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Unlike Wake Thrasher, Tarmogoyf can also, you know, block.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I run the Humility in the MD despite Krosan Grip being everywhere because it's usually in the SB and MD Humility steals games. Half the time if I expect Grip to come in I board out the Humility despite the fact that they are good because I just put 3 dead cards into my opponents deck. If they don't board in the Grips and I don't take out Humility it's usually game. I run Ajani instead of running Goyf's because it has far better synergy with Landstill and doe's the same thing as far as making the deck better at going aggro faster.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
freakish777
This doesn't make sense at all. The reason I'm suggesting Goyfs is to create a version that shifts the focus from not losing to actively winning. DoJ also wins games, hence keeping it and Dragons in. They have synergy in that they both reduce your opponent's life total. Additionally, DoJ + Goyf is useful in situations where your opponent has a two Goyfs down to your one. The attack, you cycle DoJ for 2, draw your card, take down a Goyf, and take no damage.
Against opposing control decks, you get to overload them with threats instead of drawing cards that only work when they play a threat of their own.
I understand, but by not having cards that actually control the board, you're slowly turning the deck into Fish. I mean, look, you cut WoGs, which are fundamental to Legacy's approach to Landstill. WoG is how to wipe boards clean so you can play Standstill. If you're playing Standstill because you have threats in play, then it's more similar on the approach to that of Fish.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I'm personally not a fan of including Goyf in this deck. It goes against the theme of controlling the whole board, locking the game down and winning with DoJ.
The way I win most games is by gradually pecking away with Mishra's and finishing with some Soldier tokens... after I've established control. The entire rest of the deck is dedicated towards this purpose.
Along the same lines, I see how Ajani can produce quicker kills via DoJ tokens. I've been testing him and he's fun. However, I usually find myself being busier using all my resources to establish firm control instead of dropping a turn 4 Ajani and following up with a DoJ soon after.
I've felt comfortable with x3 DoJ x1 E. Dragon x4 Mishra's as my sole means of actually closing the game. Packing more threats shifts the deck's focus away from control which I think is it the deck's strongest point.
This is the list I've been running. I've decided I want the option of accessing both Crucible and SDT in main so it's 61 cards... :-P
//Board Control
x4 Swords to Plowshares
x3 Engineered Explosives
x2 Humility
x2 Wrath of God
x1 Nevinyrral's Disk
//Counter
x4 Force of Will
X4 Counterspell
//Draw
x4 Brainstorm
x4 Standstill
x3 Cunning Wish
x1 Sensei's Divining Top
//Kill
x3 Decree of Justice
x1 Eternal Dragon
//Fetchable Uber-lock
x1 Crucible of Worlds
//Lands
x4 Mishra's Factory
x1 Academy Ruins
x1 Wasteland
x1 Tolaria West
x2 Polluted Delta
x4 Flooded Strand
x4 Tundra
x1 Underground Sea
x1 Scrubland
x3 Island
x2 Plains
Sideboard
x1 Enlightened Tutor
x1 Return to Dust
x1 Slaughter Pact
x1 Blue Elemental Blast
x1 Pulse of the Fields
x3 Extirpate
x3 Meddling Mage
x4 Runed Halo
Seems pretty standard. I might opt for more basic lands.
-
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
From a different thread, different deck, different forum, but still applicable;
Quote:
Yeah, I would say that 4 kill conditions is too little. One of the conclusions that I came to playing at the PBG memorial tournament, after going 2-2-2 with MWC, is that decks that can't reasonably finish three games within 50 minutes inherently suck. Now, this is an observation that's been building over the years. Maybe it's a little obvious, but I've never heard it stated this forcefully before. These decks inherently suck. It's just math. Numbers average over time. If you play 1 game against a deck where you're 55% favored, you'll lose 45% of the time. If you play 3 games, however, you're- well, I'm not actually good at math, but it's considerably more. Theoretically, if you went to infinite games, you'd win every round assuming you were 50.01% favored. This means that on average, in an eight or nine round tournament, you're throwing away at least one round or more to draws that could've been wins. It's simply not worthwhile.
I'm not a fan of Tarmogoyf either, since it has zero resiliency, zero utility (doesn't have, say, Vigilance at least, so can't smash + block), and doesn't really take advantage of that late game mana. Sacred Mesa, however, seems to fit this deck fairly well, and doubles as a quasi Maze of Ith. It's also Wrath proof, if not Disk proof.
Also, in this deck, is Mishra's Factory really better than Vitu-Ghazi or Urza's Factory? The latter two wouldn't open you up to StP, and wouldn't suck against any form of creature removal and/or attackers without Crucible.
