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Osmin, i don't think 4 pimp, 4 study and 3 Therapy are enough, since most of the times you just want to use therapy on your opponent. You should try tireless tribe, it's a great dredge enabler, and will stop threats as well in the games you don't go that fast. It's better than Pimp to some degree...Quote:
Originally Posted by Osmin
Well I did a whole long post analyzing 10 random starting hands plus mulligans, it was really interesting but I lost it when I tried to post. Awkward. Maybe I'll do it again tomorrow.
The basic idea was that in Game 1 most opponents won't have anything to disrupt you so you can keep a wider range of hands. Some of my game 1's are drawn out but I win eventually because the deck is unfair.
I ended up mulling to 6 cards 3 times, to 5 once and to 4 once. So I mulligan about half the time.
I've been happy with how my list has been running. The only slot I'm unsure of in the main at the moment is the Furystoke Giant. I like having the Dread Return options though so for now he will stay.
Hey yall.
Personally I like having 4 ichorids. Against control they are very welcome in multiples, and can use one to fuel the other in a pinch.
Also I was wondering how many people tried Nether Shadow to add some more bodies. I saw the vintage lists have been using him, and he is a personal favorite creature of mine for nostalgia reasons :) He is also black so he can be Ichorid food and often comes into play more than once.
Currently I am running 4 Ichorids 4 Narcos and 2 Shadows, and have actually really liked it so far. It is very consistent, and both ichorid and shadow dance around tabernacle effects that are becoming more and more popular.
My build is kinda strange I admit, but it suits my playstyle. I have tons of creatures because I hate running out of ichorid food and the shadows almost always have 3 creatures above them. I use 12 dredgers (4 thug) and have 3 dread return targets (2 sadistic 1 iona), and I don't play careful study because it just never did very well for me.
Anyways just wanted to see what you all think about Nether Shadow. I like him better than ghast because he doesn't cause you to tinker with the manabase.
I play more lands, more outlets, and more dredgers than you do and mulligan far more often.Quote:
Originally Posted by drawer
oh((Quote:
Originally Posted by drawer
And I also have more outlets and mulligan more often.Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
But I noticed - more I play (more my experience), more hands I prefer to keep.
Also, at GP Madrid this deck(may be with some variations) finished 17th:
// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [R] Underground Sea
1 [UNH] Island
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
// Creatures
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
1 [CHK] Yosei, the Morning Star
1 [GP] Angel of Despair
4 [TO] Ichorid
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
// Spells
2 [RAV] Darkblast
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [OD] Careful Study
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [JU] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [10E] Pithing Needle
SB: 3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
12 discard outlets (PImp, Therapy, Study), 12 dredgers (including Darkblast).
But only 4 permanent discards outlets. I can't imagine playing Dredge without the Tireless Tribes anymore.
Perhaps you mulligan too aggressively game 1. I will admit I play a lot of hands most people would mulligan, but I also think I have enough experience with the deck to understand why I am keeping those hands. It may not work for everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
One example was a hand like: 2x Cephalid Coliseum, 2x Golgari Thug, City of Brass, Narcomoeba, Bloodghast
I think this hand is keepable against most decks game 1. You open on turn 2 Narcomoeba, block if they're attacking or just go with a 1/1 beatdown plan until you get an engine going. If you do get to block the value of your 2 Thugs goes up a lot and the presence of Coliseum insures that if the game goes long you will be doing broken things.
edit: also my sample size was 10 hands...
I have not so much experience with Dredge. I would mulligan this hand on the play and keep it on the draw. My reasoning is that on the draw I can DDD the Thug and be halfway to threshold for a coliseum. On the play it is far weaker to me because you don't have an enabler and DDD slows you down too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by drawer
I think this line of thinking is too focused on dredging as soon as possible in game 1 when very few decks can deal with your mid to late game advantage once you get there. I think with this hand you can play overcosted 1/1's to buy time until you get a chance to do the broken things, your opponent will rarely be able to do anything to stop you. There are also a lot of cards you can draw in the first few turns to speed up your hand. You also have the interaction of Narcomoeba and Golgari Thug which will buy even more time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevryn
edit:I should also point out that if you know you're playing against one of the unfair decks in Legacy, like ANT or Belcher, then you should mulligan that hand every time. Most of the people in my area play Bant or Thresh or Merfolk, which are the decks that I think that hand is fine against. I would also probably mull it on the draw against Goblins, but keep it on the play.
I use Darkblasts instead of Thugs. So I would keep this hand to try to cast Darkblast on Narcomoeba or opponents creatures. It is much easier to bury Darkblast then Thug.Quote:
Originally Posted by drawer
That hand should almost be an auto keep game one against an unknown opponent, imo. You have incredible game againt any deck that aims to win through the red zone - plus the ability to just abuse anyone that doesn't establish a quick clock in the first couple turns of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by drawer
Since I'm bored, 10 starting hands:
1: 2x Cephalid Coliseum, Undiscovered Paradise, Putrid Imp, Golgari Grave-Troll, Breakthrough, Careful Study
Pretty obvious keep, I don't think I need to explain why. This hand is probably unbeatable on the play and also probably unbeatable on the draw.
2: Undiscovered Paradise, City of Brass, Flame-Kin Zealot, Careful Study, Furystoke Giant, Bloodghast, Dread Return
This seems borderline at best. It's functionally a mulligan to 4 already so a mulligan is probably correct. If you do play it you have several cards that improve your hand(any dredger or any other draw spell, 19 cards so you have decent odds to hit with Careful Study and a draw step) Also, the option of hard casting Flame-Kin and Dread Return has some value. I would mulligan after some serious thought, and mostly because Bloodghast can't block. If you had kept Careful Study would have drawn Stinkweed Imp and Breakthrough, almost the nuts. Mull into:
Bloodghast, Dread Return, Dakmor Salvage, Stinkweed Imp, Cephalid Coliseum, City of Brass
I would keep this hand against many decks in the format, and also against an unknown deck. Turn 2 Bloodghast, Turn 3 Stinkweed Imp is fine and you have Coliseum for the mid-game.
3: Cephalid Coliseum, City of Brass, Gemstone Mine, Putrid Imp, Ichorid, Golgari Grave-Troll, Careful Study
This hand is pretty absurd, auto-keep.
4: Cephalid Coliseum, City of Brass, Undiscovered Paradise, Bloodghast, Narcomoeba, Cabal Therapy, Careful Study
This is a hand that a lot of people would mull for lack of a dredger but I think it's very keepable. On the play you can Careful discarding Bloodghast plus whatever, on the draw, with more information about your opponent, you can open on Cabal Therapy then Careful on turn 2 discarding Bloodghast and flashing back Therapy if you need to. You can also sit on therapy for when you draw a dredger.
5: Dakmor Salvage, Stinkweed Imp, Golgari Grave-Troll, Putrid Imp, Flame-Kin Zealot, Careful Study, Bridge from Below
This is an interesting hand. If you keep on the play you're basically all-in on Imp resolving. If he does you're probably winning, if not you will need to draw a blue land or another Imp to have any chance. On the draw it's a bit safer. I think I would keep this hand a lot of the time because there are 14 blue lands left in the deck and Putrid Imp usually resolves.
6: Stinkweed Imp, Breakthrough, 2x Bloodghast, Narcomoeba, Furystoke Giant, Cephalid Coliseum
This hand is questionable at best on the play but probably keepable on the draw. You can DDD the Stinkweed and go for a big Breakthrough. This is a very good hand against a deck like Belcher or ANT because of the explosive possibilities and the fact that you kind of need to get lucky in those games. It's less good against anything that can counter your Breakthrough.
7: Dakmor Salvage, 2x Bloodghast, Careful Study, Breakthrough, Cabal Therapy, Narcomoeba
This is a pretty easy mulligan. If the Salvage were a blue or rainbow land I think it would be an easy keep because you could hit a land or a dredger off the Careful to basically win the game. Mull into:
Dread Return, Golgari Thug, Ichorid, Breakthrough, Bridge from Below, Golgari Grave-Troll Auto mull into:
Golgari Grave-Troll, Narcomoeba, Putrid Imp, Flame-Kin Zealot, Dread ReturnAuto mull into:
Cephalid Coliseum, Golgari Grave-Troll, Cabal Therapy, Bloodghast
This is almost an auto keep at 4 cards. You can draw any land except another Coliseum to improve, plus one of the 8 blue outlets. That's enough cards(20) to make this a keepable hand. It doesn't look good but sometimes you have to make do with what you have in front of you.
8: 2x Dakmor Salvage, 2x Breakthrough, Cabal Therapy, Careful Study, Flame-Kin Zealot
This is always a mulligan on the play. On the draw you have 14 blue lands you can draw to improve to a very good hand. If I were on the play against ANT I would consider keeping just because of the Cabal Therapy. If you're good at blinding Therapies this hand does have some value on the play against combo decks even though you don't get to play it until your second turn.
The majority of the time though, I would mull. Into:
2x Cephalid Coliseum, Gemstone Mine, 2x Breakthrough, Flame-Kin Zealot
This is a very keepable hand. On six cards there isn't much reason to go lower. Your initial game plan is to play Breakthrough for 1 on turn 2 hopefully setting up a big Breakthrough on turn 3. If you don't hit a dredger on the first one just cast the second one for 1 as well then keep a land or a draw spell and pitch the rest. You should have hit a dredger by now and you have Coliseum to dredge most of your deck.
9: Cephalid Coliseum, City of Brass, Undiscovered Paradise, Putrid Imp, Cabal Therapy, Golgari Thug, Golgari Grave-Troll
A very good hand. You have the 2 best lands in the deck plus an outlet plus 2 dredgers. Obvious keep. If your Imp gets countered you can cast the Thug and put the Imp back on top by flashing back Therapy or blocking.
10: 2x Gemstone Mine, 2x Narcomoeba, Stinkweed Imp, Breakthrough, Golgari Thug
I'm pretty happy to keep this hand most of the time. Both lands being Gemstones is unfortunate and highlights a change I've been thinking of making which is dropping 1 Gemstone for a 4th City of Brass. Still, you can play Narcomoeba on turn 2 and Thug on turn 3. You will eventually be dredging and the overcosted 1/1s should be enough to keep you alive until then. You're hoping to hit a dredger with the Thug so you can Breakthrough most of your deck on turn 4, but even if you don't hit a dredger you can Breakthrough for 1 and keep a land in hand if you haven't drawn one already.
Played earlier at College of Dupage's weekly Monday Night Legacy, my 3rd time there, 2nd time competing in that meta (one of my visits I did not make the sign ups on time). 1st time was 3-1 at 5th place out of 20+ people, 2nd time, today... I am 2-2, though I should have been a 3-1, if it weren't for a bad ruling.
Match number 1: John piloting Bant(?)
Nice guy, seems friendly.
1st Round
- Don't know if he knew I was playing dredge or not but, he was mulliganing quite aggressively on the 1st round. he kept a hand of 4, I decided to keep and played out my outlets even if it meant running them into dazes or force. I was pretty happy with my opening: Tribe,Brass,Coliseum, Imp, Study, Troll, and Therapy. The outlets ran into the dazes and forces, but had too many outlets for him, specially with 4 cards on his hand. He was swarmed with an army of 2/2s and he just can't answer them in time. He concedes.
2nd Round (The match that I should have won)
- During this match, he has Dueling Grounds in play and a goyf. he was on the offensive for awhile, until i dread returned a 12/12 troll while he is in top deck mode due to bombardment of therapy. He was somewhere around 13 or 14 at the time due to some swings by my narcomoebas and putrid imps. he had no choice but to keep chumpbocking the huge troll, but one of the later turns.. and he has no blockers anymore, he top decked relic. Thi is the part that costed me the game, it was ruled that the troll would lose its +1/+1 counters from the relic. But i was 100% sure that is false, but I heard that what judges say goes. I was able to hip at his life for many turns with zombies, till he put down a goyf to block and I died to not being able to draw any more cards.
Round 3
- I lost due to just dredging blanks, and unable to answer his goyf.
Match result 1-2
Current standing 0-1
(Bleh.. don't care, to me I won this match >_>)
Match Number 2: Tim? (Jim?) Tall white guy with spiky hair playing LEDless dredge as well (mirror match)lThis guy is really friendly, and nice to play with as well, had some nice talks about card choices between maindeck and SB choices as well.
Round 1 (he won the die roll and he chose to play first)
- He went City of brass, Tireless tribe, go.
- I played City of brass, Tireless tribe, go.
We both laughed and we pretty much figured what we're up against, and our opening plays being the same was funny. I was looking at my hand thinking that next turn the match should be mine since I have Iona in hand, a breaktrough, and several dredgers. But seems like he had a similar opening as well, and he chain dredged and DR into Iona chossing black. I concede this round since I know I won't be able to fight trough.
Round 2
- Round 2 I went first, but he opened up with a leyline. I had 2 rainbow lands, lots of permanent discard outlets, and 1 stinkweed imp, and 1 claim. I decided to cast a discard outlet first before proceeding to nuke the leyline. but since he dropped no land, I am under the impression he has none at all and his choice is to slowroll me. I draw, casted 2 more discard outlets. he was looking at the board with 5 creatures that I keep swinging with, and nuked his leyline sometime during those turns. He was hanging on on 4 life, and i killed one of his bridges via cabal therapy... but I was still not finding any bridges. However, he got one really good dredge where he got 2 narcomoebas, 3 bridges off 1 troll.... I was like... uh-oh. can't recall to much into the notes but he managed to deal 15 points of damage to me (I was on 15 at the time with 2 blockers), where i block 2 of his creatures but couldnt block the other hasted tokens.
Math result 0-2
Current standing 0-2
That final match was neck to neck too though, depite my bad dredges on not finding a single bridge, and curse my self for going with claim over vapor against another ichorid deck lol.
Match 3: A bye. >_<"
I hate this... I wanted to play >_<"
Current standing 1-2 *sweat*
Match 4: I forgat his name but he told me later he's playing with "Scapeshift"
Round 1
- I started with city of brass and putrid imp, he looked at it and sighed sying im playing dredge. I said with a straight face im playing reanimator, he just laughed and said he highly doubts it. I thought he was playing his Thopter/Meek deck, butthere wasn't any resistance, so just tokens got me there.
Round 2
- I panned open a hand and saw a tribe, city of brass x2, thug, therapy, and ancient grudge forgat what the others were.
He dropped a land that came into play tapped, and on my turn i played therapy naming Relic, but... the hand I am looking at doesn't look like his thopter deck, so I was a bit confused trying to figure out what the deck is. i started dredging into ichorids and some narco's later on, and he had to scoop becuse he coulnd't answer them.
Match result 2-0
Current standing 2-2
Ended with a 2-2 record that i really felt should have been a 3-1 due to my very first match. But I just shrugged as im just there for fun and playing/talking with others. Overall as usual, had lots of fun, and people at the tournament are pretty friendly.
List I was playing with. I am doing some experiments at the moment, and I wanted to test other things.
//Lands
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Undiscovered Paradise
//Engine
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
//Free creatures
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
//Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
//Permanent discard outlets
3 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
//Draws
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
//DR Target
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
//Sideboard
4 Nature's Claim
4 Chain of Vapor
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Ancestor's Chosen
2 Unmask
granted I may have done better with a more traditional build, but I wanted to learn some things by not always trying the same thing, if that makes sense lol.
Troll would stay in game. You were right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappa
BTW, nice report)
yeah but since it's a judge I thought there was some odd new errata I haven't heard about. Plus I also heard that what judges say will go no matter what anyways. I try to make my scribbles/notes about the match I was playing hen the match is over and right after I report it. I tried to remember and jot down notes fast coz, I want to browse around too and watch others play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Osmin
EDIT: A few things I am wondering about...
1) Do you guys think that running a singleton Blazing Archon can help a little bit against mirror? I can maybe squeeze in a slot for it, but I don't ant to devote mutiple slot over this match up coz thi is a very rare encounter for me to play mirror. I would also much prefer to focus on the more common hates that's what is putting some road blocks for me. While I may have lost 0-2 vs the dredge, both games seems like it could have gone either way anyways. Plus I dislike spreading my answers around too much that my answers becomes too thin.
2) What is this wierd ruling I heard about 6 piles and 10 pile shuffles being illegal? Does anyone know what this is about?
Bad luck man... that's a pretty bad judge....Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappa
I don't know anything of that being illegal, i do know that players have to shuffle their decks in a way that it gets randomized... if by any means that doesn't happen, you are free to call a judge...
Also, I know that is possible to cheat using 5 and 7 piles, never heard about 6 and 10 piles...
The only obligation a player has is to present a randomized deck. Pile shuffles do not contribute at all to randomization.
I don't know if you want a dedicated mirror target. Seems like you'd be better off just boarding more Leylines.
It's really just as easy to cheat with any number of piles - 5-6 piles generally raise the most eyebrows just because they require the least number of consecutive pile shuffles to get back to the order you started with (12 and 10 shuffles respectively) as opposed to 7 piles which would take 60 shuffles, assuming a 60 card deck. This is more just proof of concept though, there's nothing special about getting back to the original order - for example, every two shuffles brings the same card back to the top (or bottom for that matter) of your deck, regardless of the number of piles you use as long as you stick with the same number.Quote:
Originally Posted by claudio.r
I just realized I have a playset of Bridges, Nacros, DReturns, PImps and Ghasts.
What is the current decklist for this deck?
Also, is it viable not to utilize Ghasts? Will the deck be as effective without them? (I know I have them but Undiscovered Paradise is scarce in my area, and expensive online)
Any advises against hate? How good is this deck if you know know one runs grave hate? How do you get around Mogg Fanatics/Cursecatchers (I run both Goblin and Merfolks and this has always my tech against Dredge)
I don't like bloodghast in this deck personally... It slows the deck down and makes you run bad lands like dakmor salvage. All in all i think running only Ichorid it's better, it accumulates bridge tokens faster, more reliably and is more agressive.
In my humble opinion, running bloodghast unfocuses the deck. (Nameless One), the deck is pretty viable without bloodghast ! (and i still think, from my testing, that the bloodghastless lists are better).
Agains hate you can either run darkblast and make them pop the creature and then go all in, or slow dredge until they pop the creature and them go for the kill. If they wait to pop the creature so they can get 2 or more brdges, you eventually build up enough gas to beat them, and if they pop it right away you can continue dredging and find more gas.
(hope my english isn't too bad...)