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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
FYI, SCG has raised their buylist price of Force of Will to $60 each, and is now selling them for $90 each.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
ive had enough of starcity. this is too much
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Nothing we can do anyway. It's easy for Ben to say "Look, we want the format to be alive and healthy, because that way we can earn more money, and we want to keep prices low" v.s. "Let's see how much profit we can make by testing the elasticity of Legacy Staples, people are willing to pay these prices anyway, so that justifies us raising our prices, also, ChannelFireball and T&T are all doing the same, so we're fine".
I told my buddy how I'm very very disappointed where this is all heading. It's awesome the format's popular, it's not awesome at all how the format's growth is unnaturally governed by the secondary market forces (retailers). Basically Legacy will be growing fine and naturally without these super hiccups. Right now people are still willing to pay that much $$ for cards. I've a job and a decent salary, and splurge on foil cards every now and then, but it's becoming harder and harder to justify buying cards these days.
They still have the addicts to milk their money from, so this will continue until the addicts run dry on $$
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I've messeged Mike Turian and linked him to this discussion. This is the first step.
Quote:
"Hey Mike. I wanted to ask you about the ongoing problems with the expense of Legacy, and starcity monopolizing the value of cards in the format. I am as well as many others are concerned with the Legacy format turning into Vintage. I know Wizards has honored the reserve list be it for whatever reason, but I want to know if Wizards is going to or has thought about doing anything with these ongoing problems. Do you have any opinions on the matter? If your not the person to go to, who can I talk with? Thanks. -Joel "
His response
Quote:
"Hi Joel,
I will pass your message on to members of Magic R&D. If you follow Aaron Forsythe on Twitter, he was talking about Legacy just a few days ago.
Feel free to share any suggestions you have.
Thanks,
Mike "
Personally I think wizards should have a source account that we can interact with them on via these threads. It's important that they are paying attention to what we're saying. This should have been accomplished when Wizards decided to uphold the reserved list so that not only are they fulfilling their promises to vendors and such, but also to the player base so that we can voice opinions on cards that should be reprinted in future dual decks/ expansions, etc. I'm tired of seeing singles sky rocket due to starcitys inability to do anything, and wizards not supplementing some of this formats money burden. It shouldn't cost this much to play a format that isn't supported by the pro tour. Staples need to be reprinted to drive some of the cost down.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
It's unfortunate, the situation that Legacy prices are in right now, but honestly, would you rather be playing in small local tournaments where a 30 man attendance is considered groundbreaking or in multiple large events where anything under 130+ players is considered a slight failure.
I understand what peoples' sentiments in this thread are, at the end of the day Starcity is a business and you cannot fault them for having a successful structure. People want to play this format, please be glad for that fact.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Starcity? More like Scarcity amirite? XD
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I thought TCG Player was owned by SCG. Are they not the same entity?
And again I say, don't bother with Jace for a couple of years. It will come down.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
I thought TCG Player was owned by SCG. Are they not the same entity?
And again I say, don't bother with Jace for a couple of years. It will come down.
TCGPlayer is definitely not SCG.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Man, these insane price raises mean that I won;t be able to make a playset of Legacy-legal Beta cards. Can't justify plopping 4 grand on a set of Beta seas, that's just beyond retarded. I mean, I'm looking into getting an XJR, and that's the equivalent of four to five years of maintenance on that car! When a cards start becoming more expensive than maintaining a luxury car, it's just depressing.
/rant
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I'm just as frustrated about the huge price spikes as anyone else, especially since I sold 4x playsets of all my duals last year and now buying them again. But this is a hobby, my friend has a gun hobby and it's much more expensive than magic. Not only are the pistols expensive, but the bullets have shot up a lot in price the past year.
I don't blame Starcity, they are a business, if there is a demand ---> price, they will sell to that demand at that price. It's the people willing/desperately paying that high price. I was about to buy candelabra of tawnos on ebay for $50/each two months ago but thought that was still high. They are ending at $200+ now.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
"But look at this much more expensive hobby" isn't a valid argument, there are obscenely expensive hobbies out there, that certainly doesn't justify Legacy stables doubling their price in a matter of a few months. Fortunately FoWs, duals and Wasteland can still be bought for a reasonable amount if you know where to look, but eventually SCG's ridiculous prices will seep down into these places as well. If only people were aware that places like magiccardmarket.eu and cardshark exist they wouldn't buy from SCG and we wouldn't have this problem.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PanderAlexander
Not only are the pistols expensive, but the bullets have shot up a lot in price the past year.
Lol for pun.
Also, I am as annoyed by this as everyone else. However, I don't put any of the blame on SCG. They're a business, they exist #1 to make money. I have no problem with them raising their buy prices in order to build up stock. I would have a problem if they doubled the sell price but didn't change buy price, but that isn't the case. I suppose it's possible that they're actually just hoarding them to sell at a higher price later, but I seriously doubt it. It would seem to be too high of a risk for a marginal potential gain.
If a business can sell a product for $X, and it always sells, it makes sense that they are probably charging less than they could be. There isn't a single entity that just determines the value of a card, that value is determined by us, the buyers. If right this moment, everybody in the world decided that they didn't want to have FoW, what would happen to the price? SCG would pick up a ton at their current buy price but be unable to sell them. Eventually they'd realize they're losing money, and lower both the buy and sell price, until the sell price was at a level that made people want to buy again. This isn't a conspiracy, it is just direct reaction to the market.
I do share the concern over the future of the format as many of you though. It is a simple fact that 75% or more of the Legacy staples are cards that will not see print again. So we have a defined number of playable cards, and a growing number of people who want to use those cards (as SCG pushes Legacy into prominence).
I see the following options:
People will have to quit playing those cards (countering SCG's attempt to expand the format)
WotC reprints them so the format continues to grow (and screws collectors/dealers)
Tournaments start allowing proxies (more expensive decks become prominent, goodbye Goblins etc)
WotC prints cards that are similar in function but better than existing staples (again screwing collectors/dealers, as it makes current staples lose value)
Looking at the scenarios like this, it almost makes me feel that the expansion of Legacy is what could potentially lead to it's downfall. I'm sure there are other options, and hopefully there is one that doesn't have any major drawbacks. You can sort of compare the Legacy staple card pool to any other fixed limited resource in the world, such as coal or natural gas. As the population of the world increases, the need for these resources follows. Eventually we will reach a point where there aren't enough resources to supply the number of people who require it. That is why other alternatives like solar/nuclear/wind/etc are being pushed into prominence, despite efficiency (card quality) concerns.
I guess I don't really have any solution to the potential risk presented, but I think that with enough people recognizing it and thinking about it, a solution will emerge. This part will sound preachy, but maybe we should all spend more of our words focusing on how to correct the problem, instead of just bashing sellers for inflating the market.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
My suggestion is to do a "Timeshifted: Legacy" set, with about 100 key Legacy cards. Vials, Ports, Wastelands, Forces, Brainstorms, Swords, etc. distributed in the newest set in a 1 card per pack fashion, with differing rarities. They would only be Eternal legal, as well.
With this, Standard players would have greater access to staples, and they could always just sell them if they wanted to, thus increasing supply. Plus, it'd all be new frame, so us purists could still keep our old frame, but new frame old art could drive all the prices down a bit and help out. I know Starcity is out there to make money, but they doesn't mean they need to do it to this extent. You can't just use the excuse of
'it's capitalism" and let people get away with it.
-Matt
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
I know Starcity is out there to make money, but they doesn't mean they need to do it to this extent. You can't just use the excuse of
'it's capitalism" and let people get away with it.
-Matt
I get what you're saying, and yeah there has to be some sort of limit expected on greed. First off, if they are hoarding cards and just gouging prices, then I think that they're totally messed up and that they are the source of the problem. However, they make money by buying cards and selling them for more. Simple strategy. If the price that they are offering to pay for cards is not high enough to make people want to sell, then they aren't doing business. And a business that isn't doing business, won't be a business for long.
I'd be totally fine with the Timeshifted idea, though I know many huge collectors and dealers would be unhappy. Many of us would still prefer to pay top dollar for our original artwork, etc. But players entering the format would likely be able to construct solid decks for hundreds less. A potential difficulty with this idea is which cards to include. A year ago, I highly doubt anybody would have considered Candelabra to be a card that would be worthy of inclusion in a set like this. But now it costs at least a grand for a playset. I know many players have investigated pretty much every card in existence to try and break them, but who knows if something comes out a few sets from now that combos with some other old, obscure, Legends rare. Nobody would consider that card as a staple, but all of a sudden, it's necessary to build several different top decks. This is probably one of the best possible ideas that's been tossed around though, IMO.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
My suggestion is to do a "Timeshifted: Legacy" set, with about 100 key Legacy cards. Vials, Ports, Wastelands, Forces, Brainstorms, Swords, etc. distributed in the newest set in a 1 card per pack fashion, with differing rarities. They would only be Eternal legal, as well.
-Matt
There is one saving grace this year: the Commander decks could potentially reprint Legacy staples that are not on the Reserve List (o hai der Candlabra of Tawnos and Force of Will!). There's also supposedly about 51 brand new Legacy legal cards too, some that may even be relevant. Obv another money grab (printing direct to market singles) but if there's a solid reprint there, expect these pre-cons to sell fast.
Let's hope that they use this opportunity to patch a band-aid on some singles.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Or you know, WotC could've just abolished the Reprint Policy. Magic has evolved since it's Collectible Card Game inception. Yes, there's still some value in collecting, but the gameplay aspect crushes the collecting aspect, with the Reprint Policy hamstringing the growth of the gameplay aspect greatly. After hearing some of the greatest minds in competitive Magic favor abolishing the Reprint Policy, they do the exact opposite and make it even more stringent. It's clear that they do not want non-Standard formats to thrive.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rukcus
There is one saving grace this year: the Commander decks could potentially reprint Legacy staples that are not on the Reserve List (o hai der Candlabra of Tawnos and Force of Will!). There's also supposedly about 51 brand new Legacy legal cards too, some that may even be relevant. Obv another money grab (printing direct to market singles) but if there's a solid reprint there, expect these pre-cons to sell fast.
Let's hope that they use this opportunity to patch a band-aid on some singles.
Candelabra of Tawnos is on the Reserve List
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
I still don't think people are getting the message right here, so let me be simple and frank about what is going on with Star City Games and their outrageous price fluctuations since the inception of the Legacy Open Series:
Star City Games' attendance for these events outnumber most other large advertised Legacy events in this nation by an average of let's say, three to one. (That means for every one player at a non-Star City event, there are three players representing Star City.) With this level of consistent and growing popularity - which is essentially crushing all opposition in regards to advertising and marketing their product - they reserve the right to dictate the prices of their own product as they see fit; after all, it is their product to begin with.
The discrepancy here is that Star City, while being the premiere event coordinator in the nation, has transcended the value of the best Legacy staples to fit the needs of supply and demand, in addition to creating a profit of the would-be sale prices of a great deal of these cards. The problem isn't necessarily scarcity of product, but in reality what they are doing is completely terrifying players into selling their product because they know people are afraid to sell their cards they may never get back again due to the unprecedented price increases over the last few months. (Clever work, Ben.) Keeping this in mind, it is no wonder they are advertising their new buy list as being the best and most profitable ever to a player willing to sell their staples, because they know people are not willing to give up their staples as easily as they would have before, now that they have jacked prices up so high that people cannot afford to purchase them again.
This isn't anything new; people are talking about how Legacy is going wayward of Vintage. Tell me: What Vintage deck in the last six months has caused Force of Will to shoot up to US$90.00 or Underground Sea at a pleasant US$120.00? The answer? None. That is because Legacy itself has now taken over the reigns of dictating stapled prices, not Vintage, as most self-appointed "experts" would have you believe. More specifically, Star City being the primary catalyst in warping the value on these cards to a level that hasn't been seen since just before the format was overhauled in 2004. You are all witnessing Legacy in its Renaissance as of this moment. Just don't be surprised if the enticing articles from ringers on Star City's Open circuit have you balling in tears trying to afford the decks they have somehow found a way to horse-collar and retroactively do well with. Star City is a promotion, ladies and gentleman; a circus tent of "stars" who are advertising their own decks and making money for the big bosses behind the curtains.
They should be both happy and proud they are promoting a healthy format and are largely responsible for its current state of growth. They should, however, be ashamed of themselves for raising the value of these cards to prices so unreachable and unreasonable, that it will become impossible to afford and sustain play in the format for an extended period of time. I myself am a regular buyer of their product and I have been for years. But this is unacceptable and unreasonable, no matter how popular the format may get.
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
My suggestion is to do a "Timeshifted: Legacy" set, with about 100 key Legacy cards. Vials, Ports, Wastelands, Forces, Brainstorms, Swords, etc. distributed in the newest set in a 1 card per pack fashion, with differing rarities. They would only be Eternal legal, as well.
-Matt
Only if they do them cross-language and foil. I'd love me some Japanese foil Force of Wills...
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Re: Raise, raise, raise. The price of cardboard
So, Starcitygames.com is currently undercutting everyone on Findmagiccards.com on Green Sun's Zenith, by $1 minimum. They're selling at $5.99 when the cheapest anywhere else is $6.99. Is anyone complaining about that?
