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I'm testing with the misstep boarded ATM actually. I am not running the GSZ variant though im sill on the SFM package and on the fence about switching over just yet. Think I'll test the GSZ addition this week though just try it out. What's the optimal list?
Suffice to say, we have a few issues at the moment.
a) Are we THAT great against Landstill? The answer, not as good as we could be.
At the moment, the middle ground is eroding, and fast. Value is so important, and the long game is where it is going. Being the best midrange deck out there, this leaves us slightly vulnerable.
b) How do you deal with SFM? Options are more removal, or play SFM ourselves. But, the real question remains: Is the SFM version better than this one, and if it is, what cuts need to be made to achieve that version of the deck? If SFM becomes easily hated, that leaves us in a similar boat, except we don't have counterspells and they do.
Again, to add it in, what do you take out?
My friends and I brewed for five hours last night, discussing what could be cut, and what couldn't. It wasn't pretty.
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Firstly, we need 6 slots. 4 SFM, 2 Equipment. 3 and 2 could be okay, but I figure if we're testing, start at 4. Now, what to cut?
Some suggestions last night were interesting, others were awkward. Possible cuts include:
1-2 Goyf
1-2 Knight
4 Dark Confidant (a terrible idea)
1-4 Hymn to Tourach (a partially horrible idea)
1-3 Top (argument being if you have an excellent game with SFM, the long game card quality might be able to be sacrificed)
So, what CAN you cut? I would NEVER cut Dark Confidant, he's the only reason to play the deck (you know what I mean). He's THAT good. He's a must counter, must remove, or lose card.
Goyf and Knight are big dumb beaters that can't even run through a Factory/SFM. Mind you, they're threats. Again, it's a POSSIBLE cut (1 of each?)
I said to possibly cut 1 Hymn to a) help the manabase, since you'll want to go for white early on with a basic plains. Hymn is good, but is it better than a T2 SFM? Who knows. Both are great. Someone suggested I cut both, I told them to not do that.
Again, I hate cutting Tops, since they're so amazing, but what do you cut?
From a list like this:
24 Lands (more W/g instead of B/w like before)
2 Qasali
1 Thrun
4 Goyf
4 Knight
4 Dark Confidant
2 GSZ
4 vindicate
4 Hymn
4 Seize
3 Top
4 Swords
1 Loam
What goes? For me, the weakest slot was Loam, then Thrun, then Goyf, then Knight. Making 4. Then, where do we go from here? I figure if we shave a Top and Hymn, we have 6 slots. Again, this can be moved around, so let's assume that's what we're doing.
-1 Goyf, -1 Hymn, -1 Knight, -1 Loam, -1 Thrun, -1 Top
+4 SFM, +1 Batterskull.
We were talking about the Swords. SoFF is great; Pro Goyf and Pro token are amazing. SoBaM is great AGAINST this deck as well, and it would give us an edge in the Merfolk match. SoWaP would be fine as well, with NO RUG and SFM and Swords. SoFI is probably really great. But, we came across a piece of shit sword suggested by Tony: Sword of Light and Shadow. Hear me out.
The discussion shifted to the possible inclusion of a Volrath's Stronghold. In a slow meta, recursion is amazing. I wanted a Gigapede, since I love the Pede, but everyone said no. So, what make the Light and Shadow good enough to even possibly include?
1) Protection from STP/SFM. The most important clause. Removal is big, and Swords is the main man. Pro Swords is great, and running through a possible blocker called SFM to hit a Jace can be pretty groovy.
2) Pro-Dismember. Even Merfolk runs this fucking card. It's a sign: it's good. It's removal for every colour, and a 3 CMC removal that costs one. Excellent. People will start diversifying removal as Misstep on Swords gets more prevalent. People may board in more removal, and Dismember or Path is probably it.
3) Life gain. Dark Confidant is a great card, but getting kicked in the nuts for 5 Life off a Batterskull sucks. Life gain isn't something to sneeze at, either. It can put you ahead.
4) Pro Germ. Batterskull can't block you, or you can block with impunity. Seems fine.
5) Recursion. We play few threats, and recurring those threats can be pretty sweet. It allows me to run a Stronghold without screwing my manabase THAT much.
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Assuming we go on the SFM plan to test, let's get cracking! Proxy up some SFM version of the deck. See if it's better or worse than the other version against the following decks:
NO Rug, Stoneblade (Stoneforge Landstill, which is the best version of Landstill), Merfolk, Zoo, Team America.
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I think for the health of the deck, we need to get involved. I know it's summer, but if people can post their results, we can focus more on the "correct" direction of most builds, instead of sitting here losing to Landstill.
I played Aggro Loam against Landstill and crushed it 6/8 times. They just can't deal with that deck due to the Late game engine. We'll never have an engine like that, but let's improve our chances are see if SFM or non-SFM versions are better in the current meta.
I'll post updates more frequently as I don't have as many exams. You people: start posting again!
-Matt
I'm still in favor of mixing them (GSZ and SFM). I've reverted even further to an older list of mine as a base. It's had much success and is showing that it's still consistent enough to run all three. I haven't up'ed the SFM count as it's most definitely not the main plan but, it's amazing when it's good though. This is where I'm at right now:
1 Spore Frog
4 Dark Confidant
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Eternal Witness
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Vindicate
3 Green Sun Zenith
3 Exploration
3 Sensei's Diving Top
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dyrad Arbor
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith?Kor Haven
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
60 Total
Sideboard
2 Engineered Explosives?Pernicious Deed
2 Extirpate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Smother
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Choke
1 Kitchen Finks
The Hymns went to the board because they don't actually help without Moxes. They were good because Diamonds could push them out early causing enough disruption to stop someone's plan until we were able to overrun them.
It's not like when survival was big. We're not trying to remove every card in their hand so they don't have a way to go off. Now we're trying to let them, so we can take it away.
Also, because of the higher cmc's, due to Missteps being so prevalent, LD becomes an option again.
I have a BWG deck that could fall into the Rock archetype. I simply took all my best white, black, and green cards and threw them into a deck. I played this deck a few times and refined it to this point:
Creatures (20)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Qasali Pridemage
Spells (15)
3 Mental Misstep
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
Artifacts (3)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
Lands (22)
4 Wasteland
3 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Windswept Heath
4 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard (15)
2 Krosan Grip
1 Mental Misstep
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Serenity
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Choke
1 Engineered Plague
The 3 best creatures in the whole format are probably Dark Confidant, Stoneforge Mystic, and Tarmogoyf, so if I am going to play a BWG deck, I might as well play all 3. I avoided cards like Hymn to Tourach and Mirran Crusader because of their mana cost. I used to play Noble Hierarch instead of Birds of Paradise but opted for the birds when I realized that flying and the ability to add black mana was more important than exalted when dealing with SoFI and SoFF. I prefer Pridemage to KotR because he comes down sooner, carries an equipment just as well, and doubles up as removal with all the equipment packages around. This deck comes down relatively fast with strong disruption and tempo, and has a strong midgame with all the removal and equipments. I think this version offers better scalling than traditional rock that plays a survival early game in order to reach the midgame.
Seems like a lot of discussion in this thread (and in legacy circles) recently has been discussing the best way to vs. SFM. I was just reading the [SCD] thread on Tower of the Magistrate and it appears to be an interesting viable option. Does anyone have experience testing/playing this card in our deck and want to share?
Thread for reference:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...the-Magistrate
That's even slower than my idea of using gate to phyrexia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seems Good
I never see this land, its cool. Actually to go againt other SFM Im testing Manriki-Gusari because its can be tutorable with E.Tutor and via SFM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seems Good
My currently list is:
// Lands
4 Wasteland
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
1 Horizon Canopy
// Creatures
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Stoneforge Mystic
// Spells
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Vindicate
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
// Sideboard
SB: 2 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Dueling Grounds
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Blue
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Runed Halo
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
The only thing I'm worried about right now is E Tutor against MM decks. I love Tutor, and I used it at the GP to great success, I'm wondering if running a more conventional build in light of MM is a better idea. Time will tell
I've got some possibly enlightening material to post in a few hours after I skin a cat in the lab.
-Matt
I know everyone compared it to Goyf but Skinshifter may also be a good addition. I know going against the Holy Book of what everyone has come to believe but at least give it some thought. Having the abilities to stop most ground forces, fly above things like Moat and Progenitus, and make sure Sword damage can't be trumped (trample) is actually a pretty strong thing.
I'm going to try and test 1 at the end of the month (I have a Green Sun Package and added it to the list above over a Goyf... which puts me at 1! :). It's something that I feel would work well against most of what I'm seeing. I know it requires a green to use but I'm not having any issues with getting a green that I can spare. Additionally, with the Crucibles back, I'm having an easier time drawing better.
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Matt: With TS, Top, and Swords you should usually be able to resolve a well timed tutor. Pull the Missteps as best you can.
Rather than try and come up with a few cards that can be subbed in place of existing cards in the deck, I think Rock needs a complete retooling. The deck is, and always has been, a metagame deck. A broad metagame deck to be sure, but when you're a counterless control deck with a piss poor early game (that is to say, the early disruption is good, but it's not beating you quickly, so it can't play tempo as effectively as Canadian Thresh or Team America). Slower decks are having a hard time fighting equipment as it makes every creature a serious threat. The tempo decks are underperforming because equipment is so powerful in the late game that they can't overcome it (especially in combination with the masses of Missteps floating around). But not every deck is packing SFM and devoting room to equipment hate in the main is counterproductive.
I'm advocating Dark Ritual. It lets you shift the focus of the deck forward a turn or two, being more disruptive early and getting expensive spells online faster. Rather than concerning ourselves with trying to build as much incremental advantage as possibly, I think we should try and exploit the mana hungry SFM decks in the early game when they're still weak and make up our card advantage off our own equipment or Pernicious Deeds. Something like:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Phyrexian Obliterator
2 Tarmogoyf
3 Vindicate
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Dark Ritual
1 Lotus Petal
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Sideboard
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
I'm going to start testing with that list this weekend. It could be a pile of junk. Or it could be exactly what we need.
There were Stoneforge everywhere in my meta the last time I was there. I will try to run a Putrefy main, and also I will go with 3 Stoneforge with SoFF+Jitte+Skull, also 3 GSZ with 3 Knights, 1 Pridemage, 2 Goyfs and 1 Bird of Paradise who will carry those swords like a boss. At least with this much stoneforge fiesta, Krosan in board is a must I think.
Oh, for sure. Even if you're not always using it against equipment, Crucible and Shackles, along with other random stuff, is a beast to deal with.
I'm not sure on Ritual Spikey, give it a try. I'm wondering if B/w is better for Ritual acceleration, personally. I'll be testing my list tonight against the usual suspects (Merfolk, Stoneblade, Painter, etc.)
-Matt
That Deadguy Rock decklist I posted a while back with 3 MD Pernicious Deed seems as good an answer as any to SFM decks. It may need a little retooling since then, but 4/4/3 StP/Vindicate/Deed is a wrecking ball against SFM/Batterskull. I think I was running Sinkholes before, which could easily be dropped for some additional removal or discard. Knight of the Reliquary tutoring for Maze of Ith also keeps the equipped creature from doing combat damage on offense, completely negating the effect of their equipment.
SpikeyMikey I see you point. However, why ditch 3-4 Mox Diamond in favor of a one-of lotus petal? Most lists play this card with a lot of success. Consistently powering out our best early game cards such as Hymn to Tourach is what makes this deck so good. Playing 4 of Dark Ritual definitely helps this, but should be seen as a turn 1/2 power-out slot 5-8, not 1-4, if you want to play it.
So you're going to consistently Deed on 5, only to have them return Batterskull? From my experience, Deed isn't good against them.
-Matt
You don't use Deed to destroy the Batterskull early game; Deed is an answer to SFM and their Germ token. Batterskull costs 5 to hardcast and 3 to bounce. It's a huge tempo loss for them when you Deed for 2 early game, and its not very difficult to Deed for 5 by lategame.
Matt, I considered B/W. The initial concept was an updated Suicide Black and B/W fit that well. But Deed wants to be amazing against SFM decks. And it would be if it were just a little faster. But on the draw against Maverick, they're just going to equip that SoFF beat you with it and Pridemage your Deed. And then you're way the fuck behind that curve. And in addition to Deed, you get KotR Waste shennanigans a la NH.
Singleton Petal is unlikely to stay singleton Petal. Either I'm going to decide I like it and do 2-3 or I'll decide that it's junk and cut it. But 4 Rituals doesn't seem like enough. The problem with Diamond is that it was always a millstone around the deck's neck. Yes, it was capable of accelerating into some phenomenal openings. It was more capable of being completely dead. And Petal, while temporary, does what the deck needs it to do.
@Spikey - I do have to agree that the Mox Diamond makes people forcibly run 23-24 land just to support it, but with KotR being our primary beater (at least for me) the extra land and even the one in the yard isnt always bad. Being able to throw him out a turn faster being a 3/3 or bigger to start is just icing. I've actually been trying out Chrome Mox just so I could run more business. It's been fairly solid but I've ended back on Diamond just out of versatility. I considered Petal for awhile but the reason we use the Moxen of some form or another is because they are multiple use, first turn Hymn second turn KotR is just so saucy we can't deny it.
What are the best tools against UWx StoneBlade decks? In game one our own SFM after side Krosan Grip. I'm stick to non GSZ concept with 3 main SFM + 2 equips. Jitte was never better than Batterskull. If needed I can add deck list that I'm messing around. I'm still not sure about my side but currently it is E. Tutor package + Deeds, Thruns and Grips.
Here's why I like MoxD over Petal: yes, you have to run more land with Mox D, and yes it's a dead card late game, but it allows you to not only explode turn 1 or turn 2, but turn 1, 2 and 3 every time. Typical example:Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey
T1: land, mox, hymn
T2: land, Kotr or toughtseize + bob/SFM/goyf/hymn
T3: land, kotr + thoughtseize or bob/SFM/goyf/hymn x2
Basically it turns our awkward mid-range-ness into a much more explosive strategy. It allows us to keep up with crazy aggro decks or get past the tempo-crushing strategy that control decks impose on us. When you weigh that with that added bonus of beefing up KotR vs. a late-game dead-draw (which often you can alter to your advantage with bob+top anyway) I find it much more advantageous than a one-off ramp turn 1 or 2. We are not a combo deck and thus we want to achieve stability early and maintain our tempo/board presence. It's not like we just win because of a turn 1 two drop. I mean, yes it is backbreaking to the opponent, but it's the fact that we maintain our board presence and card advantage that allows us to win. Mox D fits in to this strategy much better.