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I'm going to try replacing the MD and SB positions of my 4th Putrid Imp and my 11th Golden Land and get back to you guys with the results, it makes a lot of sense to me in theory and maintains SB parity if I SB out LED for +3 Ashen Ghoul and +1 Putrid Imp. I'm not sure about SBing 2 Pimps or cutting Imps from the MD completely to play 12 Dredger and 12 Lands, there's got to be a point where the black creature count and the SB space really start to matter.
The real question isn't "How many black creatures do you need to feed Ichorid?" but "How many creatures do you need to fuel Ashen Ghoul?"
Replacing Pimp with the 4th thug doesn't reduce the black creature amount, and increases the "broken hand" chance more than the Pimp.
Replacing Pimp with the land reduces the black creature amount, but don't you guys think that the benefit from the increased stability is worth it?
Ichorid is a much bigger priority than Ashen Ghoul post-board, unless you're trying to say the black creature count for supporting Ichorid isn't as difficult to reach as the creature count for Ashen Ghoul?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
Maybe it's just my personal playstyle, but I think that the Quadlaser list is the most consistant Mana Dredge deck I've ever played. Maybe I got this impression, because I think almost every hand is keepable. Even without any lands at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
In all tournaments I played in, I just have to mulligan in about every third round (not match ;-)). Is it luck? I don't know, it might be. Would I have lost more games, if two Putrid Imps / one Putrid Imp and one Ichorid were replaced by lands than I would have won the games or didn't have to mulligan bacause of the increasing land count? I'm pretty sure I would have.
I'm not saying that more lands are bad - hell, I really like to hardcast stuff -, I just don't think there's a need for more lands. If you thing you're more comfortable with more lands, play them. Play the version you like, this will bring you the best results. I, for one, prefer Quadlaser right now. It just feels right to me :-).
It's relative, right now I'm running -1 Ichorid -1 Putrid Imp for 10 gold lands MD and it's a noticeable difference in mulligans and available SB space.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste
Technically, this setup is more consistant than quadlazer, in the sense that it has more keepable hands and more "broken" hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I agree, I have found that the Quadlazer list can keep some fringe keepable hands (like no dredgers 2 lands, and a careful study as well as maybe an ichorid, an imp, and a breakthrough) and still explode turn 2Quote:
Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste
Well as much it depends on playstyle, I found extra lands to be underperforming. You really don't want to Dredge into them...
@Fizzeler: What you describe is what I would call a snap-keep, not a fringe keepable hand;)
haha maybe you are right there the Quadlazer list seems to get those type hands often even after mulligansQuote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
That's the idea behind manaless dredge. But since we need to fight hate, it's more comfortable to increase the chance of getting a land since we're already mulliganing into anti-hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
You don't seem to get my point.
I do believe the Quadlaser is the most consistent dredge list there currently is.
Everyone that is playing Quadlaser with the exception of -this/+that baffles me.
The only change that I could see in the Quadlaser list is -Golgari Thug/+Darkblast, but this is meta call and a very minor change.
The only reason I would stray from the Quadlaser list is too play Dread Return and perhaps a Dread Return package. This is where you would trade consistency for power.
Sure, but you don't really want to be doing that. What you're describing is a trap hand. It looks amazing if you get that dredger, but what happens when you don't draw a dredger off that careful study and have to burn that breakthrough to get dredgers in the yard. Slow dredging is just that. slow...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizzeler
I believe I only kept a hand like you described once the entire tournament at SCG Vegas.
At GP Ghent i kept the following hand: 1 Cephalid Coliseum, 2 Careful Study, 2 Breakthorugh, 2 Faithless Looting. Didn't find a dredger in my top 20 cards and died miserably.
I think you should almost always take a mulligan if your opening seven doesn't contain a dredger.
A six-card hand with 2 draw spells and a land is another story.
Besides that my deck totally let me down and i went 2-3 drop.
I ran the Quadlaser list -1 Thug + 1 Darkblast -1 P.Imp + 1 Tarnished Citadel, but my dredges often bricked, I often couldn't keep dredging and that's what I don't like about the deck.
Sometimes you can be as good as you want but the deck just shits on you. I guess I was just very unlucky.
Perhaps I didn't shuffle enough and the dredgers clumped together...I don't know what made the deck perform so poorly :P
I've had similar experiences with a '14 land Quadlazer' and with Quadlazer as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smea.gol.lum
I'm gonna play a small tournament this sunday, maybe I'll just go with a 14-land combo version... let's give it a shot.
Actually this is a hand I would keep any day. It is quite a good one, even if you haven't have got any dredgers in your hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smea.gol.lum
I'm almost always keeping hands that contain 2 draw spells, but not dredgers. Even hands with just one drawspell and without any dredgers I would overthink to keep. In my oppinion you don't really need dredgers in your hand to consider a hand as keepable.
That hand is pretty awful since approximately half the field packs Wasteland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brot_Ohne_Kruste
Well, you see what happened...but I think I would keep this hand again in the future because I was just very unlucky.
However, I would only keep a hand with 1 land and 1 draw spell on a mull to 5 (perhaps 6, if it also contains LED e.g.), but not as my opening 7.
It's task Number 1 to get dredgeing going as fast as possible.
As much as I want to just say "you always need a hand with a dredger" there was also a point in time where I said "you can't play dredge without dread return". With this version of the deck I think that might actually be a fine keep. Shuffling is a huge factor with dredge, not shuffling enough will definitely bone you.