[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

@jebus:

Refer to above argument on more discard. The thing is, we need more discard that has a use outside of just being a discard spell, since Discard spells are so often dead cards. Being a creature is one such possibility, although Sculler and Fiend are definitely not it, since they're so conditional as disruption (and hardly effective). It's not beaters we need, nor is it discard. It's utility, or hybrid discard AND some other effect, to provide versatility, as discard as a strategy is so conditional it's hardly funny. And that is probably what the deck lacks (as discard is so dead against Goyf).

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Well, I did say IF extra disruption is needed. :tongue: Sculler and Fiend are just so... meh. They're slower than Duress, and they're lightning rods for removal. If you're running them (sans Vial, which you've suggested), you're better off with Duress.

As for the need for utility... what do you want to do with the deck, anyway? The decks aims to disrupt your opponent, play cheap threats, and reload with Confidant. That's what the deck is, and judging by how it current matchups are, this strategy might just be a bit outdated. If you're looking for something more, then it's either (1) take the deck apart and rebuild it from the ground up, or (2) splash another color / strategy in. B and W just don't provide enough muscle (that is, muscle that is fast enough) to make the deck more dangerous, and they lack the type of utility this deck needs. Right now, the only card off the top of my head that augments this decks strategy while providing utility is Extirpate, and I'm sure that has been covered extensively already.

Personally, the Bwg version, with 4 Goyf and 2-3 Deeds maindeck, plus Krosan Grip / Choke in the SB, plays out a lot better than a straight Bw build does.

Also, on Confidant vs Arena: I've always thought turn 2 Confidant is a weak play, as you haven't disrupted your opponent enough to ensure its survival. Arena also plays nice with Tombstalker, and does not need SDT just for it to not kill you.

To clarify, on utility: When I said utility, I meant cards that serve multiple purposes at once, thereby adding to the deck's versatility. Naturally, those cards would have to serve one or more (preferably more) of the deck's main needs, namely Hand destruction, Land Destruction, Permanent Destruction, draw, or threats, rather than some niche slot which hardly does anything on its own (and preferably, even at the above aspects still be powerful in its own right).

Some examples of the versatility in the deck would be Dark Confidant (good draw/bad threat), Vindicate (Creature Destruction/Land Destruction/Arti/Enchantment Destruction), Hyppie (though it is hardly played nowadays) (Hand Destruction/threat), Jotun Grunt (weakens Goyf/threat).

As we notice from the above, there isn't any hand destruction card with any side purpose. As of now, I don't think one that is playable even exists. However, hand destruction is, as mentioned in my earlier post, very conditional -- and thus, even a good discard spell like Thoughtseize makes a horrible topdeck late game - a problem which could be solved if some effect were tagged on at no cost to the potency of the spell itself (that is, I would definitely play a 2/2 Castigate, assuming it did not come with a condition, like the Sculler).

On Confidant versus Arena, Turn 2 Confidant is good against a number of decks after a turn 1 Thoughtseize, should that resolve, namely Thresh (assuming we push past their counters), since they spend some turns cantripping and we desperately need the extra draw for creatures.

In other news, a radical proposal, I know, but what about playing Duress instead of Thoughtseize? Yes, Thoughtseize can get creatures, but with newer builds playing so much removal, I question the need to lose 2 life. I'm not saying, of course, that if we regularly take creatures away with Thoughtseize we should swap it for Duress just to gain the 2 life, but that if we only take Creatures rarely (and in the DtB forum, for example, against most of the decks there we would rather take cards other than creatures if those exist (such as Counterbalance, Top, creature kill (in Landstill's case), and such). Do we take creatures often enough to justify Thoughtseize?

And about the AEther Vial and Sculler thing, what I meant was, is Sculler playable EVEN with AEther Vial to play him for free, or would I do better with another "real" creature instead? (Not that I'm suggesting AEther Vial in Deadguy of course, just an off topic question...

I guess if you maindeck StP then dropping Thoughtseize for Duress would be defensible. I'm testing 4 Seize 2 Duress right now, I could do a 3/3 split to see which performs better more consistently.

Anyway, that was what I was driving at... what the deck needs is not to be found in its current card pool. Grunt and Hyppie are perhaps the best of all those multifunctional options, but they've been in and out of the deck already.

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Originally Posted by jebus

Also, on Confidant vs Arena: I've always thought turn 2 Confidant is a weak play, as you haven't disrupted your opponent enough to ensure its survival. Arena also plays nice with Tombstalker, and does not need SDT just for it to not kill you.

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I think you make a solid point about Arena. It really is rather underused compared to confidant.

Unlike Confidant, it doesn't need a 2 card 3cc combo of Top + Confidant in order to not kill you with Tombstalker.

By playing Arena, you also get away with playing higher cc cards and even cards like Snuff Out if you felt inclined to try the card.

In my experience, even without Confidant, the deck is slow enough to not want to lose 4 life in any case. Besides, Snuff Out contends with Swords to Plowshares, Oblivion Ring, Vindicate, and EE, for removal slots, and not only is the ability to kill Tombstalker (for StP, O-Ring, and Vindicate), and CB (O-Ring, EE, Vindicate), relevant, but Snuff Out is just narrow and doesn't fit the needs of the deck (versatility).

I'll also agree with Jebus and pi4meterftw on Arena, but mainly for the fact that it's uncounterable by CB than the worry of taking 8 from Stalker, who is worse than Angel in most modern builds often, anyway.

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Originally Posted by jebus

Also, on Confidant vs Arena: I've always thought turn 2 Confidant is a weak play, as you haven't disrupted your opponent enough to ensure its survival. Arena also plays nice with Tombstalker, and does not need SDT just for it to not kill you.

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It is never Confidant vs. anything. Confidant is strictly a 4-off in this deck called B/W Confidant. Removing or reducing Confidants makes it a different deck which would need an own thread.

In a way you could say that, but Confidant has become so weak in this current Legacy Format, that a list without Confidant could actually be posited to be the evolution, perhaps natural evolution, of this deck.

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

but Confidant has become so weak in this current Legacy Format.

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Why is he weak? Confi is only bad against Red, and currently Red is no longer in the Format except for Goblins.

And Goyf Sligh. And Red Thresh.

But I don't see how you can cut Confidants in a deck that's named "BW Confidant". But if you want to go in that direction check out "Eva White".

Nice with all this activity!

And a lot of interesting things discussed.

@ Phyrexian Arena: It does sound like it should merit some testing (I certainly will try a single one in my Doran Rock). I don't think that Confidant is weak though. In a format with a lot of Fanatics, he would be, and if Zoo goes rampant, then yeah maybe he should be replaced. But oftentimes he draws you a lot of cards, and perform some beats as well. And I rarely worry when he is without SDT on the table. The notion of adding 4 Tombstalkers, and going Arena instead of Confidant is interesting though, and should be tested.
By the way, SDT is always a good card when you're running fetches. So calling SDT/Confidant a combo seems unfair.

On the discussion of discard and land destruction: Hymns and Verdicts can be ld as well, and removing a guys hand because he is mana screwed, isn't a bad thing as such. That aside, it would be interesting to see how a deck focused on discard and non-land permanent destruction, would do (Path to Exile might go in here).

Good points on the different types of discard. I have yet to find the time to actually test Sculler - but I certainly want to do it, before it is shrugged of.

Just a random thought: for a build without Wasteland, is Mishra's Factory playable, perhaps as a 2-or 3-of? Mongeese get annoying, and Factory can trade with them and can't be countered (and if they Swords it that's one less Swords that goes on Angel or Grunt). It can also attack, especially when you're trying to topdeck something worthwhile and end up only ripping disruption off the top, which happens often.

I don't get why all the decks are running so few threats. The clear response to the (valid) concern of the deadness of discard is to weaken them with discard, then play a big guy and end the game before they start ripping finishers off the top.

I think tombstalker and angel are both warranted. This would probably encourage shifts away from Confidant to arena. Confidant is not an early cast anyway. I never cast it on turn 2, unless I draw like 3. MAYBE 2. But definitely not if I "only" draw 1 which is the vast majority of the time when you do even draw it. As such, in a way I almost think of arena now as strictly better than confidant, since the 2/1 body is a bad thing, not a good one.

But you do want more than 4 phyrexian arenas, so I think the addition of a few confidants may be justified. Furthermore, as I hinted earlier, if you run tombstalker and angel, a few unlucky rips with confidant could actually end the game, whereas before not so much. Also, i may be looking at nantuko shade again as a 1x or 2x. I think cursed scroll was good in the old build, but theoretically seems to be bad in a deck running say 10 creatures instead of 7. (I would not run 4 Tombstalkers, for the negative interactions among them.) Engineered explosives and plague are both too conditional in my limited testing. I like swords/vindicate/oring.

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Originally Posted by pi4meterftw

I don't get why all the decks are running so few threats. The clear response to the (valid) concern of the deadness of discard is to weaken them with discard, then play a big guy and end the game before they start ripping finishers off the top.

I think tombstalker and angel are both warranted. This would probably encourage shifts away from Confidant to arena. Confidant is not an early cast anyway. I never cast it on turn 2, unless I draw like 3. MAYBE 2. But definitely not if I "only" draw 1 which is the vast majority of the time when you do even draw it. As such, in a way I almost think of arena now as strictly better than confidant, since the 2/1 body is a bad thing, not a good one.

But you do want more than 4 phyrexian arenas, so I think the addition of a few confidants may be justified. Furthermore, as I hinted earlier, if you run tombstalker and angel, a few unlucky rips with confidant could actually end the game, whereas before not so much. Also, i may be looking at nantuko shade again as a 1x or 2x. I think cursed scroll was good in the old build, but theoretically seems to be bad in a deck running say 10 creatures instead of 7. (I would not run 4 Tombstalkers, for the negative interactions among them.) Engineered explosives and plague are both too conditional in my limited testing. I like swords/vindicate/oring.

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Yeah, your reasoning around Confidant/Arena is sound. I never prefer to play Confidant until turn 3 or 4, using the first turns to disrupt, and therebye make it easier for him to survive. This would go for Arena as well, but Arena would have a much better chance of resolving and surviving. It usually would bypass Counterbalance and most activated Explosives - and Spell Snare is out of the picture - and of course all the creature removal is irrelevant.

By the way, if this discussion turns out to move Phyrexian Arena in Dark Confidants place, I don't think that this should merit a new thread. Things change, and this thread is long, and display a lot of thought given to a B/W strategy of discard/LD and beats. In half a year the metagame could change, and Confidant might be first pick again.

Let's also not forget that phyrexian arena keeps the drawn card a secret. Information and secrecy is kind of a "virtual" plus with benefits only because the opponent is imperfect and because of the idiosyncracies of the game; nevertheless, it is not worthless.

pi4meterftw:
Exactly what I was thinking regarding the Arena / Confidant situation. You get to run the big guys (and steer your threats clear of Counterbalance in the process), your lifeloss is controlled even without Top, you don't let your opponent in on what you're packing, plus an enchantment is harder to remove than a 2/1 creature that never comes out on turn 2 (making the CMC difference irrelevant) and is never really a factor offensively anyway.

This definitely merits extensive testing. The question is, though, do we still play SDT's, and if so, how many?

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Originally Posted by jebus

pi4meterftw:
Exactly what I was thinking regarding the Arena / Confidant situation. You get to run the big guys (and steer your threats clear of Counterbalance in the process), your lifeloss is controlled even without Top, you don't let your opponent in on what you're packing, plus an enchantment is harder to remove than a 2/1 creature that never comes out on turn 2 (making the CMC difference irrelevant) and is never really a factor offensively anyway.

This definitely merits extensive testing. The question is, though, do we still play SDT's, and if so, how many?

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My hunch tells me, that packing more threats or disruption is the way to go, instead of the 3 Tops (that I run). That said, the top has taken me out of so many tight corners and almost-lost games, so it might be the wrong place to cut, and therefore playing 2 might be the better.

Threatwise, I have been toying with the idea of Calciderm to supplement Exalted and Tombstalker. As one of you guys noted, we need to drop a bomb, around turn 4, after disrupting, and I think Calciderm is underrated. It has shroud, and it is big enough to mess with a big part of the Goyfs (especially if we can control our yard with a preceding Stalker). Jotun Grunt is of course still the most obvious choice after Angel and Stalker, but I thought it would be nice to test a setup, that is completely Counterbalance-proof, and the dissynergy between Stalker and Grunt might become a problem. Plus this would make it much more valid to run 4 Relic of Progenitus out of the board, to completely dominate Goyfs.

Having only threats that demand double white and black in the cc, might be a small problem though. Any better ideas?

I still play 4 tops because I still run 2 dark confidants. I wanted 6 arenas. This might change, however.

I've been recently thinking of running Extirpates in the main (maybe in the side); in many matchups we need to get rid of some cards in the opponent's deck that we just don't want to see. Against each popular deck there seems to be at least one card which can cripple them against us, that we can take. I do of course realize the controversial-ness of Extirpate (some really hate it, I'm aware), and this is yet an untested suggestion, but here's what I've been thinking, on paper:

Against Thresh: Swords to Plowshares or Mystic Enforcer(or if non-White, Tarmogoyf or Nimble Mongoose) -- reason being, these two cards stop Exalted Angel, your main plan to victory. Otherwise, you can just use a discard spell to clear the way for Exalted Angel, and barring extreme circumstances, you've won there and then.

Against Dreadstill: If we can get it into the graveyard, Phyrexian Dreadnought -- once it's gone all they're doing is playing a bad Landstill deck. Did I mention they can't stop Exalted Angel (backed by discard)? Of course, if we can't, we can always take Counterbalance, opening the door to 4 more of your removal spells (I play 4 Vindicate, 4 StP, 2 EE, 2 O-Ring (thanks pi4meterftw for suggesting O-Ring!)), making it 12 spells that can kill the Dreadnought should it hit.

Against TA: One of their threats. Preferably, Tombstalker; blocking Angel is scary. Else you may want to take Snuff Out, which kills Exalted Angel.

Against Combo: I have no experience here, but I'm guessing there are some cards that you would want to take, but I'm not sure which.

Against Landstill: Well, I guess you do have me stumped here. I suppose take a creature removal spell, like StP? Seeing as Humility can be removed by 6 of your cards. Alternatively you could take Humility, as that card is always scary, and EE@3 kills Oblivion Ring, or take P Deed. Else taking Mishra's Factory seems hawt. Their deck is just critical mass of the same thing, though, unlike the more cantrippy Aggro Control Decks dominating the formal now, so Extirpate's worse against it (and other control decks (and Aggro decks too)).

So what's your conclusion on Extirpate? Would be delighted to hear from you all!

In other news, isn't 4 Sensei's Divining Top excessive? I know it's always good to see one, but you never want two...(and even if you Top it away it still clutters your top 3...)

P.S.: Is Elspeth, Knight-Errant a good SB card against Landstill? She's immune to Humility, hard to kill (EE@4 or Decree of Justice seems to be the only spells that kill her (and of course Manlands)), and can kill in 5 turns with luck. Perhaps Valarne if you want a CB-proof curve you can try her over Grunt, instead of Calciderm? (though confessedly Elspeth is far worse against Thresh...)

@Hummingbird: Your rundown of Extirpates possible use against some main matchups is relevant, but when I tested it main, some time ago, I found it a bit to conditional, for it to matter. Plus in many circumstances, it doesnt really influence the board or hand of the opponent. It can of course be useful, but oftentimes, the way we have put for instance a Goyf away, is through StP.

Plus maindecking requires taking something else out:) But if you try it out, I am curious to hear of your results.

On Elspeth: It can be powerful, and I will certainly keep it in mind!

// Lands
6 [7E] Swamp (3)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Scrubland
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [4E] Plains (1)

// Creatures
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
2 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [ON] Exalted Angel
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
2 [AP] Gerrard's Verdict
2 [LRW] Oblivion Ring
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [OV] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (3)
4 [AP] Phyrexian Arena
2 [ARE] Duress
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CS] Jotun Grunt
SB: 2 [ARE] Duress
SB: 2 [OD] Sphere of Law
SB: 4 [LRW] Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 4 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst

The list has already been justified by my previous posts