[Deck] Belcher

Nice to see this thread active again.

That really is the sad truth about belcher it is an all-in deck.

You can devote about just about 4-8 slots of Sideboard hate for blue, because you really can't change much in the main deck.

Going with a transformational sideboard to grind against blue like carpet of flowers, by doing this I think you are just becoming a worse TES/ANT deck. So it will be better to just switch to that deck as they combat blue better.

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Originally Posted by TerribleTim68

Ok sweet! That's the tech I was looking for. Thank you! I quit playing right at Mirrodin block and only came back last year. So some of these newer cards escape me. I think that might be what I'm looking for. I thought about Overmaster but it wasn't what I was looking for since it's only the next spell. Xantid Swarm seemed possible but not exactly what I want to do either since there is plenty of creature removal in Legacy. So I think I'll go grab some Autumn's Veils and give that a go.

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My experience with Xantid Swarm is that it either gets countered (which is fine, but you don't get much benefit from it because you almost always waste a card to cast it and your opponent has a chance to make another land drop/cast another Duress/etc), or gets removed (which is also fine, but generally worse for you than them). Autumn's Veil does almost exactly the same thing while dodging Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares, so...there's not much reason to run Xantid Swarm anymore, especially since you can only take so much out of the deck to make room for sb cards before you wreck the whole plan A.

I honestly wouldn't play Belcher these days, there are FAR too many Thalias running around...if you wanted to grind through a long tournament at least.

I'm curious about one thing.. how do the Street Wraiths fit on this deck? What are they for?

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Originally Posted by Silent Requiem

Edit: I played against Belcher in a tournament on the weekend, and she drew the god-hand seven that included EtW and four spirit guide. She didn't need to resolve a single spell to win. Fortunately, I was playing Solidarity (I was expecting loads of storm decks) and that deck has a fantastic storm v storm matchup. High Tide, Reset, Cunning Wish, Echoing Truth in the face of lethal damage bought me the time I needed to win.

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Maybe I'm ignorant, but wouldn't she only get 2 goblins since the storm was 0? Even if her other two cards were free spells, she would get at most 6... that's not a god hand at all.

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Originally Posted by skincoffin

I'm curious about one thing.. how do the Street Wraiths fit on this deck? What are they for?

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They are just to cycle, nothing more. Basically they make the deck -4 cards. So the lists that run 4 Street Wraith, 4 Gitaxian Probe & 4 Manamorphose are in essence like playing a 48 card deck. your odds of hitting your money spells are much better that way. In theory any way. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by TerribleTim68

They are just to cycle, nothing more. Basically they make the deck -4 cards. So the lists that run 4 Street Wraith, 4 Gitaxian Probe & 4 Manamorphose are in essence like playing a 48 card deck. your odds of hitting your money spells are much better that way. In theory any way. :tongue:

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yeah I get that logic, I was just wondering if there were any other spells that would be more useful

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Originally Posted by skincoffin

yeah I get that logic, I was just wondering if there were any other spells that would be more useful

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Well, you could replace them with 4 Burning Wish and go that route. :wink:

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Originally Posted by TerribleTim68

Well, you could replace them with 4 Burning Wish and go that route. :wink:

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are there any advantages in running a wishless build?

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Originally Posted by HammerAndSickled

Maybe I'm ignorant, but wouldn't she only get 2 goblins since the storm was 0? Even if her other two cards were free spells, she would get at most 6... that's not a god hand at all.

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Eight goblins, actually. She was on the draw, so she had eight cards in hand, giving her a storm of 4. If I'd countered anything (and I could have), it would have been even worse.

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Originally Posted by skincoffin

are there any advantages in running a wishless build?

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Depends on who you ask. Some swear you have to have them. I don't miss them. I think it comes down to your choice. I think running them dictates what you do with your sideboard and uses a lot more sideboard room. Going without them means you can do more with the sideboard since you don't use any slots for wish targets. But it also means you dillute the deck some when you do sideboard.

So in short - It's 6 in one, a half dozen in the other. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by TerribleTim68

Depends on who you ask. Some swear you have to have them. I don't miss them. I think it comes down to your choice. I think running them dictates what you do with your sideboard and uses a lot more sideboard room. Going without them means you can do more with the sideboard since you don't use any slots for wish targets. But it also means you dillute the deck some when you do sideboard.

So in short - It's 6 in one, a half dozen in the other. :tongue:

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Yeah using wishes limits your sb a lot, and that can hurt specially against blue decks.

One thing I'm worried about making this deck is of being tired of it pretty quickly. Whats your guys opinion/experience on this?

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Originally Posted by skincoffin

Yeah using wishes limits your sb a lot, and that can hurt specially against blue decks...

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Actually, I don't find it "limiting" at all. If anything, the only thing this deck doesn't straight roll IS blue. So what I'm doing is looking for a sideboard method that WILL beat blue and not worrying about anything else. With that in mind, the sideboard should be more open since you only need to worry about 1 thing instead of needing an answer for 15 different things.

I like playing the burning wish because it lets you play 7 empty the warrens.

And note that blue is not the only enemy, there is thalia, thorn of amethyst and chalice of the void. Admittedly, the times you have a chance to use the wishboard is not that often, still it is nice to have the option to answer other non-blue threats if given the chance.

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Originally Posted by karaxu

I like playing the burning wish because it lets you play 7 empty the warrens.

And note that blue is not the only enemy, there is thalia, thorn of amethyst and chalice of the void. Admittedly, the times you have a chance to use the wishboard is not that often, still it is nice to have the option to answer other non-blue threats if given the chance.

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The problem with Burning Wish is that it makes Empty the Warrens cost +2, becomes Spell Snareable as well as any other countermagic. So its having 7 with 4 out 7 being counterable vs. 4 that are not counterable. Also, yeah the wishboard rarely ever comes up. People can make it through the whole tournament without even using it. Its much better in TES.

I really think this deck needs to learn how to transform with the sideboard somehow. There are plenty of different ways to go with it.

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Originally Posted by karaxu

I like playing the burning wish because it lets you play 7 empty the warrens.

And note that blue is not the only enemy, there is thalia, thorn of amethyst and chalice of the void. Admittedly, the times you have a chance to use the wishboard is not that often, still it is nice to have the option to answer other non-blue threats if given the chance.

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All 3 of those are never a problem on turn 1. Thalia and Amethyst cost 2 and the Chalice isn't going to land on a relevant number on turn 1 either. Belcher can just explode on your turn 1 before any of those matter.

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Originally Posted by skincoffin

Yeah using wishes limits your sb a lot, and that can hurt specially against blue decks.

One thing I'm worried about making this deck is of being tired of it pretty quickly. Whats your guys opinion/experience on this?

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It's a fun deck. I don't get bored of playing with it, but I'm kinda a jerk. I'll take my lumps and lose to blue, but pretty much beat other decks. (Because of spirit guides and lotus petals, it's possible to win through a Cannonist and that is a wonderful feeling.)

If you play in a very heavy blue Meta, I would advise against playing Belcher, you'll have long games and they'll be unfun, assuming you refuse to scoop/rage quit like I won't. (F your Mirsha's factory, keep attacking and ultimate Jace, I paid money to sit here and have all my stuff countered...) The glory of Belcher is to be winning and finishing within the first... 11.45 minutes. That way you can make a trip to food place of choice like a boss.

Also, it makes you smarter because of the frequent math involved. True fact, Belcher players are smarter due to the mental exercises of counting, both of storm and mana.

Cheers,
no whammy no whammy no whammy

Lol! I tend to agree with most of that. I do love playing the deck. But I tend to favor combo over anything else. I'm not much into that whole "cast critters and spend lots of turns attacking, trading and blocking" deal. :tongue:

Besides, there is something satisfying to me about spitting out 20 goblins on turn 1 when your opponent hasn't even drawn yet. Yes, I've done it. Yes, it happens with this deck. No, your opponent won't have much respect for you or your deck. But he will scoop before ever drawing a card. :laugh:

the "4 gitaxian probe 4 manamorphose 4 street wraith" (essentially making it a 48 card deck) no wish sideboard seems to be, becoming more popular

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=47820

this one got 2nd place, sooo close, oooh so close!

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Originally Posted by feline

the "4 gitaxian probe 4 manamorphose 4 street wraith" (essentially making it a 48 card deck) no wish sideboard seems to be, becoming more popular

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=47820

this one got 2nd place, sooo close, oooh so close!

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the most impressive thing in that deck, besides the single LED, is surviving in the Top 8 through the finals. For what I see, belcher is essentially good with a "surprise" factor and in the top 8 you know your opponents decklist before game 1, am I right?

That part is true, no surprise there.

Capitalization is required.
-4eak