[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Clown of Tresserhorn

@Dia_Bot

The list looks great. I can't believe I never thought about the white splash. So far, testing has been promising. I'm running:

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Swamp

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual

4 Orim's Chant
3 Duress

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim Tutor

1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

I always though Ari's build was super solid, but needed one or two more disruption spells. Chant is insane right now, and with fish on the decline, I don't feel bad running this manabase. Having IGGY as your primary win condition, chant seems better than duress, so I went with 4/3 split.

I'm feeling better and better about storm...

---

Tried your build today (except -2 V. Catacombs, +2 M. Flats, -2 O. Chant, +2 Silence) in a small tournament (20ish people). I went 3-1 only losing to Uw Blade, against which I of course couldn't find my Chants. They did however win me the storm-mirror. The two Silence was some last minute tech against Leyline of Sanctity and Misdirection-effects. Neither came up, and I will swap them for two chants next time. I like the list and will continue playing it.

Nice to see some videos.

Anybody else have any videos or know where I can find some with ANT in action?

I played the list the oRen posted at a tourny yesterday going 1-2 except -1 chant +1 discard. Not the greatest result but the two losses were both against reanimator. Turn 2 Jin-Gitaxias is a bit rough to get through :cry:, so any advice for that would be helpful.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by murkymercy

I played the list the oRen posted at a tourny yesterday going 1-2 except -1 chant +1 discard. Not the greatest result but the two losses were both against reanimator. Turn 2 Jin-Gitaxias is a bit rough to get through :cry:, so any advice for that would be helpful.

---

Well.. Its combo vs. combo - whoever can pull the trigger and go off faster wins the game. If reanimator is a problem board in the graveyard hate. Its a very resilient deck that operates on a few key cards resolving and has a decent counter suite - it won't always be a turn 2 jin but there is a reason my board packs extirpates over dark confidants.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by murkymercy

I played the list the oRen posted at a tourny yesterday going 1-2 except -1 chant +1 discard. Not the greatest result but the two losses were both against reanimator. Turn 2 Jin-Gitaxias is a bit rough to get through :cry:, so any advice for that would be helpful.

---

Back in the days when both were the two top tier decks in Europe Reanimator used to win against ANT a lot because the deck is much better pre board in this matchup. If you have problems with graveyard based decks like this try to fit 3 Extirpates into the sideboard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chikenbok

my board packs extirpates over dark confidants.

---

This should be less because Pate is good and more because Bob is just terrible in Legacy Storm decks.

Extirpate is a great choice. Completely didn't think of it as i have none but I'll change that as soon as possible. Cheers :smile:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lorddotm

This should be less because Pate is good and more because Bob is just terrible in Legacy Storm decks.

---

Why do you think Bob is terrible. I do not necessarily disagree, but I've been researching on TC Decks and found that nearly all of the UB Tendrils decks have been playing Bob in the sideboard.

Dark Confidant is fine this type of deck.

It's bad in TES, since TES just wants to win as soon as possible. When playing a war of attrition, and when boarding in the tendrils plan, Bob ain't bad.

So I'm on my phone so I can't add a link, but chapin just featured this in a free article on star city

Scaared ruinator. 1UU

Flying
as an additional cost, exhile 3 cards in your graveyard when u cast.

May be played from your graveyard. 5/6


Do we actually have a legit man plan now?

So I'm on my phone so I can't add a link, but chapin just featured this in a free article on star city

Scaared ruinator. 1UU

Flying
as an additional cost, exhile 3 cards in your graveyard when u cast.

May be played from your graveyard. 5/6


Do we actually have a legit man plan now?

exile 3 CREATURE cards in your graveyard

Oh, wow guess I got over excited. damn.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Clown of Tresserhorn

Dark Confidant is fine this type of deck.

It's bad in TES, since TES just wants to win as soon as possible. When playing a war of attrition, and when boarding in the tendrils plan, Bob ain't bad.

---

You're actually wrong. I've played ANT with and without Bob. Bob has never impressed me. Even against decks he's supposed to be good against, you just get overrun by Tarmogoyf and disruption.

On another note, I will never understand why people play ANT over TES anymore. TES is just as consistent, plays around Mental Misstep better, and is faster. People are frightened of the mana base, but it's rarely a problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lorddotm

On another note, I will never understand why people play ANT over TES anymore. TES is just as consistent, plays around Mental Misstep better, and is faster. People are frightened of the mana base, but it's rarely a problem.

---

Although I agree with you on the topic of Wasteland-vulnerability I don't know how TES plays around MMs better than ANT. I mean: how's that possible with more relevant cc=1-spells to aim for?

Protection targeted by MMs
TES: 7-8 pieces (Swarms/Chants/Duress)
ANT: 7-8 pieces (Duress/Seize)

Mana targeted by MMs
TES: 8 (D.Rit, Flame Rit)
ANT: 4 (D.Rit)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lorddotm

You're actually wrong. I've played ANT with and without Bob. Bob has never impressed me. Even against decks he's supposed to be good against, you just get overrun by Tarmogoyf and disruption.

On another note, I will never understand why people play ANT over TES anymore. TES is just as consistent, plays around Mental Misstep better, and is faster. People are frightened of the mana base, but it's rarely a problem.

---

For me at least, whenever I play TES, I always get insanely awkward hands. Whether it be infernal tutor and burning wish hands with no fastmana, multiple rite of flames with infernal tutor and one land, chant/xantid with underground+fetch against blue, multiple disruptions against non-blue, and simply being outclassed after casting empty the warrens frequently happened to me when I played TES. Also, opening 2 chrome mox is beyond shitty and should statistically happen once for each nut hand with 2 LEDs. With ANT, there is less of everything but more ways to find it, placing more importance on the role of cantrips than blind luck and a wishboard. With ANT's 4-6 tutors and 6-7 disruption, you can't really flood on anything other than cantrips, which turn into the cards you need. I also like sideboarding with ANT much more than TES. A number of times when playing TES, I would have to use my only tutor to find an answer some sort of hatebear because the 3 cards I brought in didn't come up with the 7 cantrips that are still in the main postboard. With ANT, you bring in a good amount of bounce which you cantrip into to answer hatebears rather than wasting tutors to do so. Also, 17 lands v. 13 is a huge difference in consistency which TES replaces with chrome mox, a card that is often terrible before ad nauseam. Also, burning wish can only find diminishing returns as a storm engine if you have only one tutor, which is terribly inconsistant and only really great under a chant/xantid hit. The only upside I see to TES is not being cold to gaddock teeg game one. I'll take ant's consistency over outs to game 1 teeg any day.

Have to say I agree with GoboLord here. I don't see how TES or, in particular, Rite of Flame would be less vulnerable to Mental Misstep than Cabal Ritual.

ANT off course also plays a larger number of 1 cmc cantrips, but i think these won't get misstepped unless you really want to (for example, when faking a mana screw).

I don't want to start a complete TES vs. ANT debate. I'm just trying to understand lorddotm's remark that TES plays around Mental Misstep better ANT, because I don't see how.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bennotsi

Have to say I agree with GoboLord here. I don't see how TES or, in particular, Rite of Flame would be less vulnerable to Mental Misstep than Cabal Ritual.

ANT off course also plays a larger number of 1 cmc cantrips, but i think these won't get misstepped unless you really want to (for example, when faking a mana screw).

I don't want to start a complete TES vs. ANT debate. I'm just trying to understand lorddotm's remark that TES plays around Mental Misstep better ANT, because I don't see how.

---

People who actually know how to use Misstep against combo will save it for your protection spell or tag a Brainstorm or a Dark Ritual, Rite never gets hit, so having Cabal at CMC 2 isn't actually that big a deal (especially since Cabal Ritual is dogshit the first few turns of the game while Rite is always useful).

The reason it plays around Misstep better is because of two things:

1) It is faster, so the opponent typically has seen less cards than when you are playing ANT (which is one of the big reasons why Ad Nauseam is better than Doomsday). This aspect is typically over looked.

2) We have 8 tutors and 19-20 acceleration, which makes us rely on our cantrips less often. That is the problem I was having when I was testing ANT, it was slower, and could be crippled if a well timed Brainstorm was Misstepped, this happens a lot less often with TES.

Ok, agree with you on that again. Thanks for explanations, your points make sense now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lorddotm

People who actually know how to use Misstep against combo will save it for your protection spell or tag a Brainstorm or a Dark Ritual, Rite never gets hit, so having Cabal at CMC 2 isn't actually that big a deal (especially since Cabal Ritual is dogshit the first few turns of the game while Rite is always useful).

---

Matt Elias misstep'd my rite of flame. Saved his ass. Keeping a deck like that off 4-5 mana can be brutal, especially if you aren't looking to play a longer game (for example, reanimator).

Other than that, I completely agree. Similarly, AnT has a much harder time finding a second business spell to play around Clique. And clique is a bitch.

Well, they are discussing it in the TES thread already, so I thought we could get it in here too:

Past in Flames 3r
Sorcery (M)
Each instant or sorcery card in your graveyard gains flashback until end of turn. The flashback cost is equal to its mana cost.
Flashback 4r
Illus. Anthony Jones
155/264

So, we have a Will now, I just don't know how much of that card I want to play. Possibility is to cut Ad Nauseam out of the deck so you can play a configuration of 3x Past in Flames (+1 SB), 4 BWish, 4 Infernal, 2 - 3 Tendrils.
Minitendrils is always good against control, also they have to counter Past in Flames 2 times.
The argument might be that Ad Nauseam wins if you have zero cards in your hand, but this is the case with this card also. In a gamestate where you have no cards in your hand, the game is dragging on and your graveyard should be full.
I'm not too sure yet, but this should make an extremely resilient combo deck that doesn't rely on lifepoints and doesn't fear a counter in the opponents hand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mort-

Well, they are discussing it in the TES thread already, so I thought we could get it in here too:

Past in Flames 3r
Sorcery (M)
Each instant or sorcery card in your graveyard gains flashback until end of turn. The flashback cost is equal to its mana cost.
Flashback 4r
Illus. Anthony Jones
155/264

So, we have a Will now, I just don't know how much of that card I want to play. Possibility is to cut Ad Nauseam out of the deck so you can play a configuration of 3x Past in Flames (+1 SB), 4 BWish, 4 Infernal, 2 - 3 Tendrils.
Minitendrils is always good against control, also they have to counter Past in Flames 2 times.
The argument might be that Ad Nauseam wins if you have zero cards in your hand, but this is the case with this card also. In a gamestate where you have no cards in your hand, the game is dragging on and your graveyard should be full.
I'm not too sure yet, but this should make an extremely resilient combo deck that doesn't rely on lifepoints and doesn't fear a counter in the opponents hand.

---

I like this as a Wish target, ala Ill-Gotten Gains, that doesn't bring their Force of Wills, Mental Missteps, and Dazes back. It's a nice desperation play (potentially better than Diminishing Returns) that allows you to chain cantrip after cantrip in a long attrition war. I also think TNT is the best situated deck to take advantage of this, since it runs more cantrips than TES and supports red (unlike ANT).

One possible problem, however, is that Past requires a heavier red commitment than most TNT builds were willing to support. Adding Rite of Flame would seem to help in that regard, but I imagine it would require cutting Cabal Ritual, which I am hesitant to do. Cabal Ritual has some (minimal) dissynergy with Past, but Rite of Flame is even weaker IMO. Furthermore, running Rite of Flames actually makes you more dependent on initial red mana, which is usually the hardest part. A chain of Rites may allow you to produce lots of red mana, but I think that you'll rarely want more than two anyway (one for Wish, one for Past), since the increase in Batterskull makes the Empty the Warren plan much weaker than before.

I imagine that if TNT becomes a Tier 1 deck again (say, if Misstep were banned), we would be able to fit Past in Flames by simply including a few more red duals as fetchland targets, holding Petals for red when necessary, and cracking LED for RRR when Wishing for Past in Flames.

That is what I'm doing atm (mainly for Burning Wish -> Grapeshot), my manabase looks like this:

1x Underground Sea
1x Badlands
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island (Reverent Silence)
1x Island
2x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn (actually, those are Rainforests, as I don't own Tarns atm :D)

Works wonders, never had a problem with getting RR. I also think you are underestimating this card. In a TNT / ANT build, it's as close to a Will as it gets (I'm also guessing that it will be banned not too long after release). But maybe I'm overestimating ;)

Double Post.

Wow, what a card. This really needs to be played, the question is just how.
One option would be replacing the singleton IGG in a standard ANT list. It costs the same (though 1 red mana) but can easily be played against blue decks since they wont be returning any counters.

Past in Flames seems insane in a UBr ant list. I'm pretty sure you could actually take out Ad Nauseam and put 3 Past in Flames maindeck and 1 sideboard. I'm not sure how it would play out but seems insane.

Made Top 16 (14th) in our regular league in Barcelona (Spain) in a 137 Tournament.

Finished 6-2 and lost to Sotneforge/Misstep/FoW/... and Zoo

The list was nothing special:

Maindeck 60

2x Island
2x Swamp
2x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Bloodstained Mire

4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond

4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual

4x Duress
3x Thoughtseize

4x Infernal Tutor
1x Ad Nauseam
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
1x Tendrils of Agony

4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Preordain
4x Ponder
4x Brainstorm

I'm specially happy with the sideboard, it worked incredibly well.

Sideboard 15

2x Chain of Vapor
2x Echoing Truth
2x Hurkyl's Recall
2x Rebuild
2x Slaughter Pact
2x Extirpate
2x Empty the Warrens
1x Volcanic Island

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

Double Post

I'm seeing more and more of these lists with 4 Gitaxian Probe, 14 lands, and only 1 Ad Nauseam and I have to say I'm a bit surprised. I've tried it out myself and didn't really like it. The problem is that you get less information in opening hand, because of the probes. I think playing the deck becomes more of a gamble. For example: What do you with a hand containing no lands, but 1 probe and 6 other cards that are actually quite nice?

Getting to see your opponent's hand is nice, but is it really worth the risk of cycling probes in to random cards?

Another question: Do you use the probes as early as possible or do you wait for the turn you go off?

Perhaps I should give the probes another try, but I really like playing 2 Ad Nauseam....

Sorry, Double post. This is strange I'm 100% sure I clicked only once and did not refresh....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bennotsi

Getting to see your opponent's hand is nice, but is it really worth the risk of cycling probes in to random cards?

Another question: Do you use the probes as early as possible or do you wait for the turn you go off?

---

You would never, ever keep that hand unless its Infernal, LED, LED, Rit or some other hand that just wins with any mana source. And even then no one would think you wrong to mull it. This isn't belcher, we NEED lands.

As for using probes, it is, as always, hand dependant. Against non-blue I usually just run them out because the peek is irrelevant. But against blue, I tend to use them later or if I already have a duress or something to check that the way is clear.

I seem to be having trouble locating that latest TNT build using :u::b::r: to start incorporating Past in Flames. Any ideas on a start? I'm thinking the following:

4 Rite of Flames
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 LED

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe

4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize

1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseum
1 Past in Flames

1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire

SB:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Pyroclasm/Firebolt/Flame Slash/Deathmark
1 Thoughtseize

3 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Extirpate

@Rukcus - perhaps the only change I could suggest would be cutting 1 infernal tutor (for the board) and sticking in the 16th land. I don't know.. I still feel like 15 land is really tight for this deck - especially when you'd like to be making three colored land drops against wastelands. Its easier to get away with 15 land in a UB list running 4 probes, but once you add the third splash color it seems like its far too little.

Looks like the Discard plan is now back to the forefront. No more MM being a nuisance.

I'm at a similiar list, but I would rather cut Petals then Cabal Rits. Maybe a 2/2 Cabal Rit / Petal split.
The mana they generate is just so much.

Edit: And I still think the Reverent Silence tech is too good, so I would suggest playing -1 Usea, +1 Tropical Island/Bayou.

Cutting Lotus Petal doesn't seem like a good idea.

When going of using Ad Nauseam instead of tutor chain you really need floating mana and 0CC mana to successfully come out of AdN. In addition LP allow for faster kills.

To sum up, LP allows for faster kills, reduces overall CC and increases the chances of generating mana after AdN.

I think Past in flames needs a complete new deck for itself, rather than a spalsh in the old fashioned UB(r) lists. It is very similar to what happened with TIme SPiral when unbanned, people started by trying to fit it in the old Spring Tide lists, but after a while they realized the engine needed a brand new scheme to work optimally. If i have time I'll try to open a thread in new and developemental decks so we can discuss this super cool new bomb.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-

P.S. I started the thread, if you are interested you cna find the deck and explanations here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...619#post587619 I'll be glad to here all the ideas you can give.

So quiet here about Mental Misstep getting banned. Shouldn't people be cheering and driving in with horse carriages with flags and flowers? This just opens the field for insane combo once again.

Shhh... (we're trying to stay under the radar...)

I just want to do something with basic ANT, none of the crazy awesome color splashes. This is what I have come up with below. Let me know whats up, and what needs to be changed.

4 cabal ritual
4 dark ritual
4 lotus petal
4 lion’s eye diamond
2 chrome mox
2 mox diamond

4 brainstorm
4 ponder
3 gitaxian probe

4 duress
3 thought sieze

4 infernal tutor
1 ill gotten gains
1 ad neausium
1 tendrils of agony

4 darkslick shores
4 gemstone mine
4 polluted delta
2 island
3 swamp