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I definitely have my eye on it. I'm preparing myself for GP Paris more than anything right now, so there's plenty of time for me to try it out. Kind of frustrating that it doesn't hit Teeg, and I do already play Detention Sphere with double Tutor, but it is such a powerful effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aetherick
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aetherick
This is surely interesting. It also fills the cc2 slot for Counterbalance, and reusable with Snapcaster. If this proves to be a good answer to Jace (which it is not but at least it delays him for 2 mana- by the way: it plays very well with our own Jace AND Counterbalance AND Clique), you know what?
It could finally be the right time to eschew red and play straight UW, eschewing REBs from the sideboard and minor-impact cards. REBs are amazing, but I really dislike drawing Volcanic Island in the first 3 turns and expose myself to colorscrew or Wasteland.
An UW manabase would be so sturdy that it would grant Miracle uber-consistency, which is something it still lacks.
Perhaps-probably-I'm exagerating, but this is a worthy card to start toying with.
EDIT: Against BUG, with Liliana down and Shardless on stack cascading, playing this on Liliana acts as a removal.
Its definitely a very good card, but WW is hard to get on time. I'll give it a try, but I don't think it is a staple, just a good role-player.
No defensive card (removal spell) recently printed can ever become a staple in the sense of "necessary", but this has such a wide range of applications and micro-sinergies with the whole core of the deck that I can see a good 2-ofs soon becoming a status quo.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
This seems insane. Azorius Charm on Steroids. Funny that we were just debating Venser and then this card get's spoiled. Getting to Memory Lapse any nonland permanent is great, even if there's no shuffle effect. It'll also get around Counterbalance in the mirror, pretty easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aetherick
I almost think this is them being fair after printing Abrupt Decay, but maybe I'm just taking it too far, now.
The :w::w: is pretty sad, though. You basically never will cast this on turn 2 against these wasteland decks.
Actually I must say this card looks weak on paper and will most likely turnout likewise irl.Quote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
Though I'll give you that the instant factor and versatility is actually appealing.
The casting cost is horrible, the "getting rid" effect not permanent (CB+Top and the right CMC online is a tricky combo to achieve), you can re-use it with SCM, but you cannot spend X the 2nd time around.
I suggest we do not assess it as an on-color instant speed Vindicate. It's more like a WW for a Submerge that you can use on any non-land permanent? It's basically a slightly better Boomerang/Echoing Truth with a worse casting cost (though Boomerang can bounce land and E.T. potentially bounces multiple trouble makers).
Miracles is not a tempo deck that can profit from a delay à la RUG & Submerge by seizing that essential turn to stomp its opponent. In order to actually benefit from a delay the card would have to be put at least(!) 2 cards from the top (or play it in response to a cracked fetch land). Hence I prefer looking at it as a CMC 4-5 card - at that point I can think of half a dozen cards I'd rather include off the top of my head.
Sorry for the negative vibes, but I felt like pointing out some downsides was due.
Edit: I'll admit that there is no on-colour spell that has a similar set of applications. Which is why I'd like assess Unexpectd Absence a little further by conducting a comparison to common solutions for opposing non-creature permanents.
Oblivion Ring and Detention Sphere make no good comparison since they suffer from being susceptible to Abrupt Decay and the likes. The first potent sparring partner that comes to mind is EE imo.
UA pros: on-colour, thus usable in straight UW versions, can handle permanents beyond CMC3 (yup, I'm looking at you Planeswalkers), instant speed, enhances CB curve, can be re-used via SCM, plays around CB
UA cons: high casting cost to be truely efficient, WW, late-midgame / lategame card, suscetible to Pierce/Daze
EE pros: on-color (though making it powerful requires a splash), early game applications (Vial, DRS, etc.), can be cast proactively, hits multiple permanents, casting cost, if higher, can paid on two turns, permanently gets rid of trouble makers, can be re-used indefinitely via A. Ruins, less suscetible to Daze/Pierce
EE cons: bad for CB curve, can't hit CMC4 permanents unless you're on 4 colors, which I don't recommend, not instant speed
Ach fuck it, ima test it.. :tongue:
There is no point in running that card, don't understand the hype.
The only advantage is that it cannot be Pyro/REB, when painter is not in play.
Against Vial Tribal: you want EE anyway
Against Delver: doesn't matter, you have to fight pierce/fow anyhow, cannot target mongoose
Against Show and Tell: once the permanent is already in play, they can always respond to the bounce, respond draw 7, respond cunning wish for free, respond pay red and drop fatty. The card makes almost no difference.
Against Shardless: might buy you couple turns if you target their Lili or Jace. Doesn't do much if you target DRS/Strix/Shardless, can't target Tarpit.
Looks like SB material to me.
I think the main problem is that it's competing with Oblivion Ring/Detention sphere as "random permanent answer." The main downside for ring is that it can be decayed (or otherwise answered), whereas this new spell cannot--outside of counterspells of course; however, ring is way better against show and tell. This, combined with the double white, and inherent inconsistencies with unexpected absent actually answering an opponent's card, is inclined to make me prefer Ring/sphere instead most of the time. There is the potential utility to protect your own permanents with unexpectedly absent, but I feel like this won't happen very often in practice. That said, this card certainly seems interesting and I think it's worth testing out.
Its Flashback cost is :w::w:X. You can definitely Snapcaster it back and set an X.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
I'm also in the camp of it seems good, but I don't know if it's better than ORing/DSphere/Venser mainly due to Show and Tell being such a deck. I suppose it's worth testing, but I wouldn't get my hopes up.
/ agreeQuote:
Originally Posted by Piceli89
I've stopped reading other forums, because many people lack knowledge and play skill. You are one of the reasons why i still enjoy opening this thread.
Went to a small GPT for DC byes, first place also got a Moat so pretty exciting. Went 5-0 (4 rounds of swiss and a cut to top 4) and split the finals getting the byes and the second place prize (4 Goblin Piledrivers) and my opponent getting the Moat. This is the list I played:
Instant/Sorcery:
4x StP
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
1x Flusterstorm
2x Spell Pierce
3x Terminus
2x Entreat the Angels
1x Supreme Verdict
2x Fact or Fiction
Planeswalker:
3x Jace, tMS
Artifact/Enchantment:
4x Counterbalance
4x Sensei's Divining Top
Creatures:
2x Vendilion Clique
2x Snapcaster Mage
Land:
4x Island
4x Flooded Strand
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Plains
2x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
1x Mystic Gate
1x Karakas
1x Arid Mesa
1x Snow-Covered Island
Sideboard:
2x Rest in Peace
2x Wear//Tear
1x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
1x Hydroblast
1x Pyroclasm
1x Pithing Needle
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Flusterstorm
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Entreat the Angels
1x Oblivion Ring
1x Misdirection
This is all from memory since I don't really find I have much time to take notes during the match.
Round 1: Jake with Tinfins
Jake is my brother who was trying out some degenerate combo deck to get some rust off for Eternal Weekend coming up, obviously we get paired first round. Game 1 was pretty unexciting, he manages to not kill me on turn 1 so I assemble voltron on turn 2 with Counterbalance/Top lock out and there is virtually nothing that Tinfins can do to beat that game one.
Sideboarding: -2 Snapcaster, -2 FoF, -2 Terminus, -1 Verdict/+2 RIP, +1 Pyro, +1 REB, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Misdirection
Take out the slow stuff and the wraths and put more counters in, pretty simple.
Game 2 was pretty similar, he doesn't kill me on turn 1 and I have a pretty nice hand with RIP and Counterbalance and some counters so I play it a little slow and land the RIP and then a needle out with Top. He does find a Serenity for all my goods, but I find the backup RIP so it doesn't matter. I then proceed to Jace him out of the game being weary of him hardcasting Griselbrand.
Round 2: Chris with ANT
Chris is my friend who came up with my brother and I, sweet fucking pairings. Game 1 he is on the play we both keep 7. I manage to get a counterbalance down on with a blind 1 on top, but he combos off around it with triple petal, LED and an Infernal Tutor for Ad flipping mono 2 mana rituals and then casting Tendrils for lethal on turn 3.
Sideboarding: -2 Snapcaster, -2 FoF, -3 Terminus, -1 Verdict/+2 RIP, +1 Pyro, +1 REB, +1 Pyroclasm, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Misdirection, +1 Venser
Game 2 I keep a sketchy 1 land hand going to 6 with a brainstorm and a Counterbalance. I proceed to rip the land like a champ and turn 2 balance. He has a Xantid Swarm but I still have the Swords for it, he tries to go off on turn 2 or 3 but miscounted his graveyard thinking he had threshold and wiffs. I find a Clique and kill him quickly. Game 3 was unfortunate for him, turn 1 he cantrips and turn 1 I play a top. I have a decent hand but need to find a balance or something soon. He Cabal Therapies me on turn 2 naming Counterbalance, I tell him that he was close and I point to the top of my deck and say it is there. I then casually proceed to rip Counterbalance off the top of my deck causing me to lose my shit laughing, he was less than thrilled. I keep him locked out of the game for awhile while I dig for a threat and he waits for a decay to show up. I finally find a Venser and start the slow grind. I eventually find a second Counterbalance and play it, which he seems visibly frustrated with because he finally found the Decay for my first balance. After 10 turns of poking him with Venser I finally get there.
Round 3: Rich Shay with Sneak and Show
I hate this match up quite a lot, but I was glad Rich wasn't on Imperial Painter like he was last time I played him. Game 1 is unexciting as I desperately try to fight off his Griselbrands and him drawing around 21+ cards this game. I can't really do anything so I eventually die to the nice demon.
Sideboarding: -3 Jace, -2 Terminus, -2 FoF, -1 Counterbalance (Probably a mistake, I boarded it back in game 3 for the last Terminus or another StP), -1 StP/+1 Entreat, +1 Venser, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 REB, +1 Pyroblast, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Wear//Tear, +1 Hydroblast, +1 O Ring
Game 2 was interesting, he did a whole lot of durdling and I played a V. Clique showing a hand of really nothing but counter magic and a Defense Grid he hadn't played for some reason. I proceed to ride the Clique from 18 life to 0 as apparently he has no outs to it in his 75 some how. At one point I entreat on my turn for 1 leaving up 2 mana because I knew he had 2 Pierce in hand and I figured that 2 Pierce for the entreat was a good trade. Game 3 I had a game plan now, so I stuck a counterbalance and tried my hardest not to die until I found a Clique. Again he spent a long time durdling with his own top while I waited for Clique. Eventually it showed up and again proceeded to ride it to victory.
Round 4: Theresa with Reanimator
Theresa plays at the shop I play at normally and I had put her on Team Italia as that's what I saw her playing last time, I keep a pretty well rounded hand with a force and a sword thinking that should buy me enough time to dig for Terminus. She proceeds to go Underground Sea -> Entomb so I realize I need to switch my game plan. I fight over the Entomb with a Spell Pierce thinking she could have a petal or a Reanimate which would leave it dead the next turn. She forces and I allow it to resolve. She fetches Jin-Gitaxis for some reason so I let the Exhume resolve and figure I can just fight over StPing it. I swords it before we get the end step, she brainstorms looking for a Daze but instead finds a Thoughtseize. She asks me when I was swordsing it and I tell her the end of her main phase 1 like an idiot. She then moves to the main phase 2 and Thoughtseizes me off a petal she had taking some thing which I don't think matter. The game pretty much ended there, I found a top and dug for a win con while she didn't approximately nothing. I eventually find an Entreat and end of turn make 4 angels and one shot her.
Sideboarding: -2 Snapcaster, -2 FoF, -2 Terminus/+2 RIP, +1 Misdirection, +1 REB, +1 Pyroblast, +1 Flusterstorm
Game 2 was pretty uneventful, she keeps a sketchy 1 land hand and gives me DI time to find all the stuff I need to lock her out. I get a Counterbalance/Top online and find a V. Clique to kill her. I probably made a misplay here, for about 5 turns I could have entreated for around 3-5 angels but I chose not to since I didn't feel like cracking my fetches and losing any life plus the game was so locked out with the CB/Top that I didn't really care at that point.
I 4-0 the swiss putting me at first seed for the top 4.
Top 4: Theresa again
She manages to sneak into the top 4 at 4th place, which was great because it meant I got to play that match up again and not the Sneak and Show player or the Imperial Painter player. Game 1 was not even close. I casually had my Karakas on turn 2 and she has zero outs in her mainboard to it. I do some stuff while I bounce her Griselbrand a bunch of times and she eventually concedes to a Jace going upstairs.
Sideboarding: Same stuff as last time
Game 2 I mull to 6 and she goes turn 1 Show and Tell, I have the Force for it and ask if she has the actual nuts with counter back up. She doesn't and I proceed to lock the game out because she has no hand left giving me again DI time to setup the lock and eventually find a Clique to hit her 7 times and take it.
Top 2: Scotty with Imperial Painter
Scotty is another regular at the store I play at, he says he already has 1 bye from planeswalker points so he offers me the byes and the Piledrivers for the Moat. I gladly take the offer since I was primarily after the byes anyway, and wasn't really interested in playing that match up either even though I have made some small tweaks to my deck to better handle that matchup (+1 Island/-1 Fetch, Hydroblast, Pyroclasm, and second Wear//Tear in the board) since it's so popular at my store.
All in all it was very good tourny. Naturally I play against mono combo decks and no creature decks, but whatever. Deck configuration currently feels really good and is almost certainly what I'm going to be playing at Eternal Weekend/DC.
Edit:
I suppose I should add in my thoughts on some cards to spark discussion so this isn't just a misplaced tourny report post.
I really love Fact or Fiction. Turns out, it's still super good. I have been trying pretty hard to find the perfect draw spell to help gain some some real card advantage when you don't have CB/Top or are playing a really grindy match up. I have tried Sphinx's Rev/Blue Sun's, Accumulated Knowledge and finally I'm on FoF. FoF is really since it's a really nice handful of cards at 4 mana, compared to the 1 you would get from Sphinx's or how slow AK is (Although I did cast all 4 against Shardless Bug once, turns out Ancestral for 2 mana and Oppurtunity for 2 are pretttttty awesome). Not to mention, people don't really know how to properly split FoF piles any more (probably never did).
This tourny may have led to some bias, but god damn is Clique just insane. I used to run 3 in the mainboard, but I needed to make room for the FoF and Snaps so I cut one, plus I don't have the second Karakas so that makes that plan a bit weaker. I definitely think I'm going to find room in the sideboard for another one.
Snapcaster is another card that I want to play to get some more card advantage, plus I needed more 2s for Counterbalance so this just seemed perfect. Sure it sucks I have to side him out for RIP, which is confusing me when I board against Shardless Bug since I want Snap for more CA since the match is grindy but I also want RIP for Gofy, Shaman, etc., but I think the upside it brings is definitely worth it. Plus it's nice to have a flash creature to pressure a combo deck, gogo ambush viper.
Lastly, I liked the switch to 5 Islands and only 8 fetches. I actually dislike having so many fetch lands in the deck. I understand their purpose and how insane they are with Brainstorm and Top, but I really hate when I get a nice card I want to cast but I don't want to crack a fetch to cast and lose whatever I had on top that I also liked. This was also a concession to how much I hate losing to Imperial Painter, it just feels like a deck with 7-8 basics shouldn't have so much trouble with a turn 1 Blood Moon.
I don't want to take credits away from you, but your assessment presents contradiction. Did you notice how many times you wrote "-2 FoF" in your report? Why are you praising the FoF in your post when you SB them out so many times? Since your posts suggest that Clique is insane, and Clique, Snap, and FoF compete for the same slot, how about just go with the mainstream build, move the FoF to SB? You don't need 2nd Karakas to justify running 3rd Clique as the main stream builds. Most main stream builds have either 3 Clique 2 Snap, or 2 Clique 3 Snap. If you want be creative, run FoF in the SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zllig
Nice job. Thanks for the report, helped me understand a couple things.
-ABC
Considering how good Nemesis is and how overplayed it will be following its release, I'm confident Miracles will be one of the best decks in the meta again. Miracles stomps combo and now we get to stomp midrange because they will be cutting value 3 drops for Nemesis, allowing us to x for 1 them.
I really feel Nemesis is overated and as a miracles player I welcome people to run as many copies as possible. Also we might have to bump up Terminus to 4 MD now. Btw I'm still not running Clique MD, but I have 3 in the side. I'm playing 2 Counterspells, an Elspeth and
and 3 Snaps MD instead.
I love Fact but unfortunately at 4 cc you really need to interact with the board to be playable. I think the 3rd Snapcaster and an Elspeth might be better gas cards over 2 FoF. You really need to manage tempo as well as card advantage or be ripped to shreds by opposing Jaces/Liliana.
Also wouldn't board snaps out against combo. You can use your pierces, Rebs and Flusterstorms aggressively against cantrips then flashback them with Snap for value. Or you can just use Snap as an ambush viper which is more than good enough against combo. Card advantage like Jace as well as removal are the first to go out.
Just won a 20ish person GP Trial for DC. I was running a non-RIP, pretty heavy creature list. I'll try to write a report later on. If anyone else is going to the GP, you should hit me up and we can exchange numbers or something!
@Dzra: Nicely done. Was Snapcaster in your list or was it more of a Legendary list? What made you decide to go non-RIP heavy creature, lots of midrange? Seems off from your normal list. I look forward to any report you may post.
-ABC
You misinterpret his post. He was simply pointing out something that appears to be a contradiction in the post for the tournament report. If you look at each of the sideboarding strategies for the rounds, Fact or Fiction literally was sided out every time. Yet, the writer goes on on to say at the end of the report how amazing Fact or Fiction is/was. To me, if a card is performing very well, then I would not want to side it out very much, and so it seems strange if fact or fiction was so good that it would be boarded out so frequently. This was the issue he was trying to address.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Nilla Pac
In fact, his statement was actually trying to be polite (in my opinion) because he was basically telling the player good job for the tournament, even though he disagrees with the inclusion of Fact or Fiction. But he didn't just want to say "Hey I disagree with you about Fact or Fiction being good," because that would be rude and not very helpful for anybody. And so he was respecting the tournament placement, but wanted to discuss the topic of fact or fiction a bit more in depth.
EDIT: I realized that the poster who I am addressing here wasn't actually the one who posted the tournament results. As such, I edited my post to reflect this.
This is me hitting you up. Feel free to PM me and we can exchange contact info.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
I'm very curious and excited to see your list. I'm running 3 RiP main and no creatures, so I'd like to see where your way was superior and why.
(this is not sarcasm, this is genuine interest for the same archetype but completely different approaches to it)
I've been running RIP for a long time, but lately (and with some encouragement from friends) have been dissatisfied with how often I board out some or all of the RIPs. Before I switched to RIP, I was playing a Snapcaster version, so last week I decided to try that. It was a little half-hearted perhaps as I wasn't running Spell Pierces and was still clinging to Enlightened Tutor maindeck.
I did alright with it, but was still unsatisfied so I switched back to RIP for Saturday's weekly Legacy. I got fairly slaughtered. Some of it was no doubt due to sloppy play, but some of it was the same old clunkiness and near-misses that the RIP build can have. I was definitely missing the Pierces against a Stifle/tempo as well as a Mono-Red Painter deck that I hit. Pyroclasm also was starting to look really nice when I was sitting under a Magus of the Moon facing down Phyrexian Revoker (on Top), 2 hardcast Spirit Guides, and a Jaya Ballard, Task Mage. Needless to say, it didn't go well with a Terminus and Supreme Verdict in hand and no :w: sources in play.
Last night in a rage after the weekly, I completely revamped my list from either of my last two attempts and rolled a much more streamlined list with Pierces and a lot of Cliques and Snapcasters as well as Venser MD. (I also wanted a good excuse to SB my new 7th Foil Pyroclasms, not to mention Moat has been sitting in the binder for a while now...) It was only a 20ish person GPTrial, but aside from a misplay against Goblins and bad beats against Belcher, the deck performed really smoothly. I've started writing a small report, but the more I write the more lazy about it I feel, so hopefully I'll get around to it over the next few days.
You could always share the list first and worry about the report later :)
You are heading up the same alley as I am. Streamlined list with snappys, cliques and venser with lots of flashbackable targets (well atleast pierce and snare and the sideboard a bit more). Pyroclasms are still there but one of the explosives has to go, just not as good when you can have snappytargets instead. It seems correct to run 2 wear//tear instead of the oneoff with all the targets in the new and upcoming meta. I have a double legacy tournament (both saturday and sunday) this week to evaluate but I feel pretty happy with the list I am working on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Unexpectedly Absent was spoiled and i am quite exited about it for the UW-miracle deck. that deck already has the mana-base to pay WW and this card solves some of the main issues this deck has in my opinion. it can kill a Lili 2.0 or a batterskull. sure the d-shpere can do the same and pitches to Fow but it dies to abrupt decay.
what do you think? could it replace the sphere in the non-enchantment heavy builds? maybe 1 or 2 MD?
i think i will try out at least 1 MD and maybe another in the SB
I think we will all try this card. It can be a solution for Liliana which is the only problematic card for us. Sometimes we struggle aginst Sylvan Library, Chalice of the Void and then some sideboard cards like Choke, Chains of Mephistofeles...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lim-Dul
Batterskull is quite weak against us imho. I often let mystic live and take one two hits and Terminus then. They usually can not recover.
What did I miss?
BTW, I wonder if Joe will post his finding at SCG Seattle, though he most likely did not match his expectation. Perhaps the meta has shifted?
Unexpectedly Absent is almost certainly worth looking at (another reason why I'm leaning Snapcaster lately). I really hate cutting ORing for it though because of Show and Tell. Perhaps it'll replace Wear // Tear or even the fourth Swords to Plowshares in some lists? ... ORing/DSphere will probably get the axe, but there's no way I'm cutting Vensers.
I'm a little hesitant to post my exact list online with the GP coming up, but maybe I'm just being paranoid. ;p There's nothing too fancy about it. I got my Counterbalance curve to a pretty nice spot I think (1cmc - 14, 2cmc - 7, 3cmc - 5, 4cmc - 5, 5cmc - 3, 6cmc - 3). I'm running a small Enlightened Tutor package in the board for 2 RIPs, 1 DSphere, 1 Ethersworn, and 1 Moat. I'm unsure if DSphere is correct over ORing and I'm unsure if either will be correct over Unexpectedly Absent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgs
you're hesitant but i'm not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
3 cmc - Clique, Clique, Clique, Entreat, Entreat
4 cmc - Jace, Jace, Jace, Verdict, Moat/Elspeth
5 cmc - Fow, Fow, Fow
6 cmc - Terminus, Terminus, Terminus
But then again, most builds have that configuration anyway. I don't see the reasoning for DSphere other than FoW pitching, even that reasoning is a bit weak. DSphere is so bad against Sneak-n-Show and Imperial Painter, that reasoning to Not run it is so much stronger than running it for pitching.
Haha fair enough. I mainly just don't like having my actual list sitting in the thread. If anyone wants to discuss specifics, they can always message me.
Joe and I played during the tournament, which was something I both wanted and didn't.
Awesome games, Joe.
-Matt
Hello everyone, been a while since I've played Miracles. I've been playing RUG and BUG recently with good success, but I'm feeling the meta shift a bit to combat BUG's card advantage strategy. Because of this, I'm thinking that Miracles might be a good deck to come back to. I stopped playing it before Rest in Peace was printed, so I don't have much experience with RIP/Helm combo.
Here's my current take on the deck without having any experience playing it. I'm not really happy with how the sideboard looks. It feels a bit all-over-the-place, and I'd like it to be more focused. This is probably because I don't know what the bad match-ups are.
Any suggestions or criticism are very welcome, please help me get this deck ready for GP DC!
Lands
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
1 Dust Bowl
Creatures
1 Vendilion Clique
Spells
Control
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
1 Misdirection
Card Advantage
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Removal
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
Tutor Package
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Blood Moon
2 Rest in Peace
Win Condition
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Entreat the Angels
Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Blood Moon
1 Counterbalance
1 Detention Sphere
1 Rest in Peace
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wear // Tear
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Pyroclasm
1 Supreme Verdict
My criticism is your sentence: Here's my current take on the deck without having any experience playing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pherion
Miracle is Not a deck you sleeve up 1 month prior to a big tournament and expect to do well with it. It takes a long time to fully understand the intricate interaction against various decks. Too see interactions against rare match-up, for example you have not seen omni-tell in your area or online, I would recommend watching Oarsman's video stream clips to understand his game plan, how he trades and get himself into the board state where he can win.
The deck's always ready, are you?
RIP/Helm plays more or less like the non-RIP version. You are still just trying to survive until you kill them with Helm or Entreat. I'd recommend switching the fourth FoW that is MD with the 4th Counterbalance in the SB. I've found Blood Moon to be disappointing more often than not, so I wouldn't recommend running two (perhaps not even one). Dust Bowl doesn't really do anything for us since our lands are usually more important than theirs (you can switch this for a Mystic Gate or just more Islands). Even in the RIP build, I liked having 2-3 flash creatures to help deal with planeswalkers and other random crap. Double Clique or Clique/Venser are both good options. EE and Pithing Needle have both been somewhat disappointing and mostly unnecessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pherion
Basically, the RiP/Helm version cuts an entreat for a Helm, and attempts to use the lack of a Graveyard more. Aside from that you still assemble Counter Top, you kill some guys, counter some Spells, and draw some cards.
Also I love Blood Moon, but 2 is pointless. If they deal with it then you've bought yourself enough time and forced an answer from them to help your Helm kill them.
EDIT: Or they just die because they can't cast Spells.
I'd definitely play a second entreat somewhere in the main, you look to be a bit short on wincons to me. I don't really like verdict that much, and would still recommend an Energy Field for RiP builds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pherion
Thanks for the comments everyone :)
I'm a pretty smart cookie, and I've been watching the deck play enough to keep up with it. That said, I played the non-RIP version for a good year, so I've seen most match-ups in multiple with it. I was referring to having little experience with the RIP/Helm.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
I agree, the EE/Needle were proving lackluster in testing. Any suggestions on what to up in the board? I could put another Clique there, if not in the main. Speaking of, what would you suggest pulling from the main - the Blood Moon?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
So I'm thinking just the one in the board then to side in for BUG and RUG match-up (damn and I just picked up two from The Dark!)Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
I've always found Energy Field to be clunky. It's one of the reasons I haven't come back to the deck until now. I don't like the idea of staring at a wasteland across the board and realizing that I can't play my trump card....Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
I would say if you aren't playing Snapcasters and you are playing RIP, play 3 RIP or 1. Not 2. One as a tutor-target for relevant matchups and don't play the E. Field, or play 3 RIP and the E. Field is the Tutor target in the scenario, as you will almost always hit one before the E. Field. I tried Snapcaster, and at least currently, it's not my cup of tea, so to speak (I can see why a lot of people like it though). I play 3/1 Rip/Field, as well as Helm as a singleton. I like it. Against fair decks, I get control within the first 4-5 turns, and then I win with Helm. No grindy 20 minute games.
What does the creature base look like in these creature-heavy lists?
-ABC
Lies. I stabilized by assembling EF or RiP using a Tutor. Then I dig like mad, using Top and fetch, even Jace, spent the next 20 turns, looking for Helm or an Entreat. Nothing, Nothing, Nothing. Could have won faster with Clique Beatdown.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
If you believe DnT is a fair deck, then you would definitely enjoy Flickerwhisp or Mangara Vialing in, taking out your RiP, then Wasteland your non-basic, oops your only EF is gone. You're dissing fair decks as if Merfolks don't exist. By your definition, do decks running Abrupt Decay count as fair decks? In all likelihood, Shardless has better chance of gaining control of you faster than you can Rip-anything.
I've seen many lists running Wear // Tear in the sideboard; however, I'm having some trouble understanding exactly why this card would be preferable to oblivion ring. First off, based on what's currently being played I think that you will almost never get a 2-for-1 with wear//tear (except for against Imperial Painter), so I think it's safe to ignore this aspect of wear//tear for the most part. Now, oblivion ring can be used against anything wear//tear can be used against, so we'd want oblivion ring whenever we'd want wear//tear as well.
I'd like to consider the downsides (that I notice) when using oblivion ring compared to wear//tear as an answer to artifacts and enchantments. These are: higher mana cost, the fact that your opponent could potentially get their card back, and lack of instant speed. While certainly issues, all of these seem like potentially small drawbacks most of the time. I think against decks wear/tear is best against, you'll probably leave in enough other permanants (balance, RIP, Clique), to where those decks would already have plenty of targets. To me, the fact they can destroy Oring is probably the largest argument to not run it. The mana cost could be relevant occasionally, although most decks you want artifact and/or enchantment hate don't seem to be particularly fast, so you should have the time to play a card which is slightly slower. Instant speed is definitely useful, with the most significant application at trying to get a Batterskull or leaving countermagic mana open, but I think more often than not you'll be okay to tap three mana for an oblivion ring in one turn.
Now the upsides (in my opinion) for oblivion ring are increased flexibility (in terms of what permanent you need to answer), incredible usefulness against a show and tell, and additional ways to answer planeswalkers. To me, it seems like all three of these reasons will, in general, be a much stronger reason to choose oblivion ring over wear//tear. I think very few decks are running must-answer artifacts and/or enchantments where you're very concerned with the downsides that I mentioned above.
Now, I haven't used wear//tear at all, and I could be completely downplaying the negatives (or missing some huge ones entiredly), but it seems that oblivion ring's flexibility and usefulness in more matchups outweighs the relative benefits wear//tear gets, based on how narrow it is. If somebody could help me understand why wear//tear would be preferable to Oblivion Ring currently, I would much appreciate it.
EDIT: Pretty sure creature heavy lists should have 4 Baleful Strix :P
The creature base is different from deck to deck. What you want to play depends on your playstyle and the meta, as always :wink: The most seen creature packages for me are these:
-3 Vendilion Clique/ 1 Venser
-3 Snapcaster Mage/ 2 Vendilion Clique
-2 Snapcaster Mage/ 2 Vendilion Clique
The latter is what I played and like for a long time. Now I'm testing a straight UW (non RiP) list with only one Vendilion Clique.
@ Wear//Tear: I consider this a very flexible and good sideboard card in UWr lists. It's much faster than O-Ring, killing Choke, Library... for just one mana. Easily flahbackable with Snapcaster. As you mentioned sometimes a two for one is possible, against Maverick this happens relatively often for example. O-Ring dies to Decay, which can be very problematic, as you might handle important permanents (Choke, Sneak Attack, Library), you might tap out, and then they might Decay/ Wear//Tear it , which will cause you many Problems, especially if you feel save and they destroy O-Ring eot.
Against combo or generally against MU's were locking them out with CB is important, Wear//Tear is the best card to float on top, as it will counter spells with CC1 AND CC2.
Simply my experiences vs. yours. Lies might be a bit of a stretch. You may be right, but what I posted was just my experience-based conjecture. I'm not saying I win all the time, I'm saying when my deck lines up with using RIP, my normal line of play will be as I posted above, and often, it succeeds.
-ABC
EDIT: Afaik floating Wear//Tear won't counter 1 or 2 cmc cards, but rather 3cmc. You pick the card half you are playing, or you fuze, but if it's not on the stack, it's cmc is in fact 3.
Having an instant is important vs certain cards, including Choke and Batterskull, which is why I was running disenchant over extra O-Rings in the board before Wear // Tear. There's also a ton of abrupt decay running around where I'm at, so having an answer that doesn't get answered by decay is a huge upside. I certainly don't agree that I'm leaving in other targets in those matchups, as Counterbalance comes out vs almost every decay deck anyways, leaving just RiP and friends as other targets. Show and tell matchups are covered by other cards in the board, and I certainly don't feel like I need the extra help from O-Rings, and Wear // Tear has huge upside being floated with counterbalance in other matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
My experience is certainly closer to yours, and I've never had an issue closing games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee